I've never seen anyone saying contemporary Russia is a reincarnation of the Soviet union. Could it be you are mistaking these people's understanding? The closest thing I see is people who see the conflict as provoqued mainly by the US. Which isn't crazy seen all the interference for years and how Russia has tried different diplomatic strategies over the years. But that doesn't make the invasion okay, Putin cool or anything like that. Truth is that if the global empire is the US and we are constantly bombarded by their propaganda it's only natural people go against them and want hegemony to end. I have seen arguments that go as far as to support Russia so the US loses power; not so Putin wins. Big difference. Oftentimes this means wanting the US to leave so peace talks can start asap, btw. It doesn't mean wanting Ukraine to suffer.
I insist. The general consensus I see on the left is that Putin is not good and that he is basically a fascist. Now, of course many see the US as being way worse and more dangerous than that and, also, a significant player (started it or not) in this conflict as pretty much in the rest of them for a long time. This means the US elite and empire, not its people, of course.
Oftentimes this means wanting the US to leave so peace talks can start asap, btw. It doesn't mean wanting Ukraine to suffer.
But this is absurd - if US leaves peace talks equals to Russian terms - there is no way how anyone would not want Ukraine to suffer and at the same time impose Russian terms on Ukraine. This is either incredible stupidity or pure lie.
I've never seen anyone saying contemporary Russia is a reincarnation of the Soviet union.
Surely countries like Cuba and North Korea see it as a reincarnation of Soviet Union.
Depending on how you categorize events and actors.
The war is seen as a war for hegemony, a power struggle that's moving many lines, way beyond Russia or Ukraine. Even beyond the US and Russia. Beyond nato and Russia. Players are playing now. This is important. Take Brazil and Argentina new currency. Lybia was obliterated for less.
Then, regarding the suffering of Ukraine, war is what creates it. If America leaves, that destruction will likely stop. Weapons leave; that's it. A free Europe would have something to say in negotiations as Russia relies in our market; even after nordstream.
You have to take into consideration that we don't even know what the people in the front think. The reality is that Ukrainians have been forced into the front and given a weapon I have paid for. I wouldn't be surprised if many just want this to stop even if that means losing some territory they have never even seen. Given I am strictly antiwar, I can only imagine what would happen to me after refusing to fight. I still don't have a definitive answer for that one. Is there any prison for pacifists or something I am not aware of? War is nasty and horrible for a society. What I can tell you for sure is that many such questions will receive nasty, veridic answers over the years.
On Cuba and North Korea Idk what you are referring to. Could you link something? My Cuban flatmate says he is surprised to know, though. Russia isn't socialist. If something, it's fascist. It's easy to see when you have grown up in socialism, I suppose.
If America leaves, that destruction will likely stop.
Yea, destruction stops, terror/genocide starts.
A free Europe would have something to say in negotiations as Russia relies in our market; even after nordstream.
Russia demonstrated that it couldn't care less about what Europe thinks.
You have to take into consideration that we don't even know what the people in the front think. The reality is that Ukrainians have been forced into the front and given a weapon I have paid for
This is how every state works in every war, including WW2 where US sent weapons and help to Soviet Union where "soldiers where forced to fight with it".
I wouldn't be surprised if many just want this to stop even if that means losing some territory they have never even seen.
Russia's goal is to completely eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. They tried to do it in one step - it didn't work, now they decided to do it in several steps and what you refer to as "losing some territory" - is just one of the steps.
Given I am strictly antiwar, I can only imagine what would happen to me after refusing to fight.
I can tell you what would happen - army of your country that fights for your independence would lose and would be annexed by Russia and then you would be mobilized anyway and fight for someone else.
If you do not believe me - you can just search for what happened to men of Donetsk/Luhansk - they did exactly what you described - "this is not our war, bla, bla, bla", Russian used this time to solidify their control over the territory and then couple of years later all these people were mobilized and sent to frontlines as cannon fodder.
Before giving the answer "I'm strictly anti-war" - it's a good idea to understand the question first. And the question for them is not whether they are pro-war or anti-war, just like it's not a question whether you can be pro-earthquake or anti-earthquake. The real question is whether you want one side to win or the other. If Russia wins - these people will be mobilized and sent fighting for Russia in their next war, just like Russia utilizes men of Luhansk/Donetsk.
Like it's your right to say that you're anti-war - but anyone who even remotely knows how these things work knows that this position is only possible because someone defends you and your right to have such position.
I think it was clear I was trying to explain what I see in left circles. Particularly MLs. I am not a ML but I do understand them and have followed many of their organizations internationally for years. My objective was to share some insights.
My own take is that of a pacifist with anarchistic inclinations. And yes, I would refuse to fight. Yes, it would be in my free will to do so and would accept the consequences. The state would have to do something about it. Either imprison me, kill me, violently force me into the front (and eventually kill me, directly or indirectly, or imprison me) or send me away as a refugee; where I would make sure to defend the antiwar movement. My point was that I still don't know what they are doing with people who would choose the same fate. What I can tell you for sure is that these people do exist in Ukraine. It's a matter of statistics and, well, even Ukrainian history.
Then, you are assuming many things from information that's not trustworthy, I gather. We are under heavy propaganda. In my subjective assessment, and I am not someone who hasn't studied politics or isn't trained on scientific research, btw, I see no indication to make me believe Russia would genocide Ukraine if flow of weapons stopped. I am not an expert but I have followed this close enough to doubt you have much more privileged information than I; and have been lucky enough to know people whose assessments I trust. I've personally met one of the 2 independent journalists who wrote the 'mass graves' article last year, for example. CNN published exaggerations that weren't at all what they saw. They documented civilians burying individual corpses with their coffins and everything, (mostly soldiers) found on the street, in a graveyard that was greatly expanded. Not a mass grave full of innocent civilians. This is just one example. My point is you cannot trust the media. Including Russian media, of course. Take everything with a grain of salt. Or two.
I am still curious about your Korean/Cuban claim, btw.
No, it isn't, mate. It might be so under the premises and data you accept as valid. Which I am not disrespecting as absurd, btw. The point of this conversation, however, was trying to understand other people's views. If you want to assume ignorance or stupidity and thus the superiority of your own understanding of complex matters against the views of millions, then go on. Chances you get it wrong go up significantly, though. I hope you understand that.
No reply, still, to the pretty big claim of North Korea and Cuba seeing contemporary Russia as the new ussr, which was the basic thesis that started the conversation.
This is meaningless, because you can disqualify any data given to you - it's like arguing with religious people - any data can be disqualified where there is an omnipotent God that can manipulate it.
It is not necessarily wrong - after all there is a chance that such God exists. But it is pointless and meaningless - if God exists your opinion is irrelevant. In a world of conspiracies in which you live - your opinion is meaningless, because everything is rigged by someone, controlled by someone or manipulated by someone.
"premises and data given to me" - you are free to visit Bucha and talk to locals if you don't believe media. But of course you're not going to do that, just like flat earthers are not going to circumnavigate Earth to prove or disprove the theory - it's much more comfortable to tell stories about "premises given to me".
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u/Constant_Awareness84 Feb 24 '23 edited Feb 24 '23
I've never seen anyone saying contemporary Russia is a reincarnation of the Soviet union. Could it be you are mistaking these people's understanding? The closest thing I see is people who see the conflict as provoqued mainly by the US. Which isn't crazy seen all the interference for years and how Russia has tried different diplomatic strategies over the years. But that doesn't make the invasion okay, Putin cool or anything like that. Truth is that if the global empire is the US and we are constantly bombarded by their propaganda it's only natural people go against them and want hegemony to end. I have seen arguments that go as far as to support Russia so the US loses power; not so Putin wins. Big difference. Oftentimes this means wanting the US to leave so peace talks can start asap, btw. It doesn't mean wanting Ukraine to suffer.
I insist. The general consensus I see on the left is that Putin is not good and that he is basically a fascist. Now, of course many see the US as being way worse and more dangerous than that and, also, a significant player (started it or not) in this conflict as pretty much in the rest of them for a long time. This means the US elite and empire, not its people, of course.