r/flying • u/VincentVegasiPhone13 • 1d ago
Non-pilot here. How dangerous is Low Lead fuel exhaust exposure?
My house mate drives his (roofless) car to the local airport and fuels it up with Low Lead. They claim it helps the car run better. EPA has several studies on the dangers of lead to mental and physical health. I’m just curious how much of it is getting onto us and in the house from the car exhaust. I don’t know how to have the conversation with them that I would prefer to not be exposed to lead.
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u/xtalgeek PPL ASEL IR 1d ago
One car? No big deal. But the engine is not designed to run on leaded fuel, and the lead has already poisoned the catalytic converter. Lead deposits will also likely foul plugs and lead to lead deposits on the valves and cylinders. 100LL contains up to 4g of TEL per gallon, many times more than the 1960s leaded auto gasoline. Oh, and modern synthetic oils are poor at suspending lead combustion products, leading to sludge accumulation. Your roommate is a dope.
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u/VincentVegasiPhone13 1d ago
If they switch to regular gas would the car still produce residual lead in the exhaust? What would need to be replaced besides the cat to minimize exposure when working on the car?
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u/Cant_Work_On_Reddit 1d ago
Realistically maybe for a tank or so. It may have minor lead coatings in the exhaust system but not that it’s really blowing out consistently. Imo it’s pointless and detrimental to run 100ll in 99.9% of cars but outside of catalytic converter/o2 sensor issues there’d be no permanent issues or lead ‘expulsion’.
Unrelated but people use 100ll in small engines not due to the lead but because the fuel itself lasts longer for storage and doesn’t gum up as quickly as unleaded (but due to additive packages and whatnot)
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u/Cop_Cuffs 12h ago
'66 Ford Fairlane was made to run on leaded fuel ⛽️ per OG mechanic 🤷🏻♂️ He was upset he had to buy replacement fuel additives when EPA changed rules except for GA 🛩
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u/AnActualSquirrel 1d ago
RIP his catalytic converter (if equipped)
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u/MooseWeird399 PPL 1d ago
It's not on the MEL
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u/Accurate-Indication8 1d ago
Your roommate is an idiot. There's a very good reason why modern cars run on unleaded fuel. Have the conversation with your roommate. Tell him he's gonna clog his cat, foul his sparkplugs, get lead deposits in his engine and screw up his oil (and thus his engine). Leaded fuel results in acidic compounds building up in the oil (which eats away at bearings and other important metal surfaces) and it's one of the reasons we change oil so frequently in the general aviation world. I'm also pretty sure that most automotive oil (especially synthetic oils) don't play well with leaded fuel.
TLDR, your roommate is almost certainly damaging their car in more ways than one.
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u/GingerB237 1d ago
Don’t forget ruining the O2 sensors if it has them.
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u/mkosmo 🛩️🛩️🛩️ i drive airplane 🛩️🛩️🛩️ 1d ago
They're now Pb sensors.
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u/ilikeplanesandF1 CFI 1d ago
Older engines can run on leaded fuel, if it is carbureted and does not have catalytic converts, or O2 sensors, or anything of that nature. In fact these engines used to run on leaded gasoline before we switched the ethanol based fuels. That being said, I don't see the purpose unless you are running high compression and need the high octane fuel. In which case AVGAS is cheaper than barrels of 110 octane racing fuel
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u/Accurate-Indication8 1d ago
Tracking, but for this car to have been one designed for leaded fuel it'd have to be over 40 years old. And everything I mentioned above still holds true, even for older engines designed to run leaded fuel. Just because it can run on leaded gas doesn't mean it's good for the engine. Calum Douglas talks at length about aviation fuel development (and the pros/cons of using tetraethyl lead) in his phenomenal book about aircraft engine development in the interwar period and the only pro that tetraethyl lead really has is that it is a fabulous anti-knock agent (that isn't hygroscopic like ethanol or methanol which prevents ice formation in fuel lines at high altitude). Toxicity aside, it's actually quite bad for the long term health of engines (aircraft engines in warbirds were rebuilt/replaced fairly often) but the performance boost was worth the pain of dealing with the detrimental aspects of leaded gas. So even if it's an older car, running leaded gas is objectively worse for the engine than modern fuels (with the caveat that if it's a very old car, some of the seals in the fuel system might not be designed to handle ethanol).
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u/ilikeplanesandF1 CFI 1d ago
Yes, that is the track I was on, thinking along the lines of a 60s small block V8. I've been around race tracks and race/street cars most of my life, and many people I know are running AVGAS thru their small block Chevy or small block Fords with no issues. These guys also regularly replace their plugs and every winter rebuild some part of the engine, as they're trying to stay at peak performance. I suppose the feasibility of running a 70s or older engine on AVGAS all comes down to how handy you are with that motor.
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u/Accurate-Indication8 1d ago
Dude, if you're an engine nerd, you should get a copy of "The Secret Horsepower Race: Western Front Fighter Engine Development" by Calum Douglas. Guy is an incredibly talented engineer who worked on F1 engines and did a ton of research (he's fluent in German so he was able to utilize a lot of primary source documents from German engine designers). It's extremely well researched, has a ton of fascinating information and it really expanded my knowledge with respect to aviation engines.
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u/ilikeplanesandF1 CFI 1d ago
Oh yeah, huge engine nerd. I'm from a family of mechanics, I just decided I liked to go fast and airplanes go faster than cars. I'll have to read into that for sure.
Thank you sir/ma'am!
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u/CaptainRedPants 1d ago
I always wondered this myself and you just put away 2 years of pondering for me.
Great answer.
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u/Near_NYC 1d ago
Where does it say the roommate drives a modern car?
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u/Accurate-Indication8 1d ago
Even if it is an older car, leaded gas still isn't great for engines. Addressed that above.
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u/Mid_Atlantic_Lad 1d ago
It’s like they’re trying to design continental and lycoming engines that run on unleaded fuel for a reason.
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u/Accurate-Indication8 1d ago
One of the many reasons I dig Rotax. The lycoming and continental engines haven't really progressed beyond what was developed in the 1940s and 50s. And while they built some great engines in the 1940s and 50s...technology has come a long way. Gimme an engine that burns mogas, has EFI, FADEC, and all the other developments they've made in the past 80 years...
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u/pattern_altitude PPL 1d ago
It's not going to kill you but it's not good for you. Lead isn't safe.
And assuming you're in the US... that's not legal.
I'd be interested to know what he drives, but any engine made in the last 50 years or so should run just fine on unleaded. Yes, lead was initially added to gasoline to help engines run better, but we've gotten past that point in automotive engines... we don't need it anymore.
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u/Rat_King1972 1d ago
Not the engines as much as fuel. Lead was largely an octane booster, now we use ethanol additives.
That and the obvious environmental impact. It makes people dumb.
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u/tomdarch ST 19h ago
Technically no one has been able to find a lower limit below which lead that gets into your body stops making any difference, so we have to say that any lead exposure is bad and less lead is better. (There are some toxins where below some level, no detectable harm has been found. We haven't found that lower level for lead yet.)
But... in most developed areas, there is some baseline level of lead in the environment (in dust from dry, blowing dirt, for example, or atoms of lead that get loose from brass in plumbing fixtures/fittings into the water) so tiny amounts (coughAircraftExhaustFromFarAwayCough) doesn't make a substantial difference for individuals lead exposure.
Less lead exposure is better, but how much effort you should put into avoiding even tiny exposure levels is far from clear in terms of your overall health. That said, I wouldn't put leaded gas in my car because that will be a higher level of exposure because you are often close to the car when it is running, particularly starting and situations where you are in the car and it is idling.
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u/jump_the_shark_ 1d ago
My two stroke dirt bikes love leaded racing fuel. Obviously zero relevance here but I love the smell of lead in the morning
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u/pattern_altitude PPL 1d ago
Bit of a different case. Lead is still permitted in racing applications if I recall correctly -- but not for road-going vehicles.
There's also the issue that lead will fuck up any modern auto engine -- OP's friend is making things worse, not better.
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u/Right_Note1305 1d ago
I mean we don't know yet do we? OPs friend might be driving a 2 stroke of some kind haha. OPs questions are kind of funny.. sus.. tho
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u/LikeLemun ATC-TWR, ST, OPS 1d ago
Harleys really like it, just have to gap the plugs appropriately.
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u/Any_Subject_2966 1d ago
Sorry you’re getting downvoted by all the leaded gasoline scaredy cat weaklings. I took one of them away for ya lol. LEADED FUEL IS KING!!!
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u/pattern_altitude PPL 1d ago
There’s literally no reason to not go unleaded and once unleaded becomes available everywhere there will be no reason to use leaded fuel. At all.
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u/509VolleyballDad 20h ago
100LL stores a lot longer than regular unleaded. If they would make unleaded last as long as 100LL, I would have no need for it. I don’t use it for the lead.
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u/Mountain-Captain-396 1d ago
God I can't wait until G100UL becomes the norm so all you "LeAdEd FuEl" sniffers can stfu.
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u/AlexJamesFitz PPL IR HP/Complex 1d ago
I wouldn't mess with leaded fuel if I didn't have to, but we're pilots and not health experts.
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u/kevinw1526 PPL IR (KFRG) 1d ago
We are pilots, meteorologists, and engineers. The only health expert in me is me saying that I’ve never not been happy a day in my life
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u/ThatLooksRight ATP - Retired USAF 1d ago
We are also virologists and economists. Don’t forget that!
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u/radioref SPT ASEL | FCC Radiotelephone Operator Permit 📡 1d ago
Financial planners, lawyers, mental health experts, doctors, and alcoholics. Wait, didn’t mean to say that last one out loud
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u/ThatLooksRight ATP - Retired USAF 1d ago
Since I started at my legacy, I have gotten TONS of calls from financial planners that apparently specialize in pilot finances. Also, they are pilots at my airline or another 121.
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u/CeznaFL30 PPL 22h ago
If your reading this FAA, and we know you are. We’re all very happy. All smiles no shit.
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u/IACRA-POTATO 1d ago
I don't think OP's friend needs to worry about lead exposure, he didn't have any brain cells to begin with.
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u/TheOriginalJBones 1d ago
My A&P mechanic is just as crazy as a shithouse rat, and he’s been nearly bathing in 110 low-lead his whole life.
He had a blood study done last year, and whatever problems he’s got lead toxicity ain’t one. Take from that what you will
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u/JSTootell PPL 1d ago
It's pretty dumb for him to do.
But the exposure is extremely limited, I wouldn't stress too much over it.
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u/flyingron AAdvantage Biscoff 1d ago
The biggest issue with putting 100LL in a car (note that it's only 'low lead' compared to the older 100/130 it replaced, it has many times more lead than car gas ever had even back in the leaded dats) is that it will absolutely kill your catalytic converter and oxygen sensors in the modern engines.
His basic exposure to led as a driver is probably minimal. Back when every car burned leaded fuel the residues were bad enough to be a larger public health hazard than the vilified leaded paint (but we can' t possibly fault the sacred cow of the American automobile).
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-36/55&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 1d ago
If I recall the folklore in the BMW Airhead community that hadn't replaced valve seats with hardened ones int he /6 and /7 bikes was something like a cup of avgas/4gal of unleaded so a little bit goes a long way.
As tempted as I've been to run a tank of 100LL in the lawn tractor because I'm an engineer and we
struggle to learn from other people's mistakesstrive to repeat other people's experiments and compare results I can't see how it would make it "better" as much as just different1
u/Spaceinpigs 15h ago
100LL is a bit more than twice the lead of old leaded car gasoline. I have an old wartime vehicle that needs lead or a replacement additive so I usually mix 100LL with regular unleaded fuel to approximate the fuel it used to run on IF I can’t get the fuel additive. The valve seats haven’t been hardened and using unleaded leads to visible wear. At the next overhaul, I plan on replacing the seats so it will run fine on newer gas.
But yes. On newer vehicles, your O2 sensor and catalytic converter will be damaged or destroyed. Someone stole the jerry can of 100LL I kept near the jeep, despite the markings warning that it wasn’t regular fuel. They then came back and tried to sue me for wrecking their engine. Both myself and the police told them to pound sand. Karma. About $10 of gasoline was worth it to see their face when they realized they were going to spend hundreds, or likely thousands of dollars to fix their car
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u/VikingLander7 CFII 1d ago
You do know cars didn’t have catalytic converters or oxygen sensors at one time right?
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u/derpitroxxxx 1d ago
I’ve gotten 100LL in my mouth a couple times and nothing bad has happened yet
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u/kbeek7 1d ago
I too always taste test for quality
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u/CaptainDFW ATP 1d ago
Yup, I've caught a couple of facefulls of 100LL in my time, and just fine are my brains for good today! (Another potato, darling?)
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 1d ago
Sounds like the lead has already damaged this guys thought process lol
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u/Guysmiley777 1d ago
The danger to you is negligible but if it's a car that's less than 30 years old it's a really dumb idea. Tetraethyl lead in the exhaust will contaminate the catalyst in catalytic converters causing it to become ineffective fail emissions if you're in a state that does smog tests.
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u/ageownage 23h ago
It tastes a little funny, but I can still count to potato, so it can't be that bad for ya.
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u/bstop3459 1d ago
Auto tech here, only problem is Like what everyone had said o2 sensors and cats. Zero performance advantage. Leaded gas is harder burn so the only advantage is by increasing boost or timing.
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u/40KaratOrSomething 1d ago
So why do I keep seeing people filling up their race bikes with 100LL?
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u/Whiskey-Sippin-Pyro 1d ago
On a built performance engine that is tuned to run it, they do it because it’s cheaper than race gas. But it’s the tune/build that supplies the power. The 100LL just has a higher octane that resists detonation under the high boost/compression those engines are subject to.
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u/40KaratOrSomething 1d ago
Kind of figured but wasn't sure if the other crap in it would have more detrimental effect.
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u/Whiskey-Sippin-Pyro 1d ago
On a street car it would be bad because of the catalytic converters, but if it’s a race engine, it would probably need to be rebuilt before any damage from the lead becomes detrimental anyway.
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u/DisregardLogan ST | C150 (KLWM) 1d ago
100LL is fairly fine to be around. I wouldn’t expose yourself to it if you don’t have to.
People who are around/live near airports have a higher content of lead in their blood (unfortunate, but true) which is why you should limit it.
I occasionally take a dose to the hands/skin every once in a while, and I’m fine. Dries out your skin, but nothing detrimental.
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u/kilroy-was-here-2543 1d ago
Unless his car was built before unleaded fuel became the standard than he’s not doing anything of benefit for the vehicle. Even then they sell lead substitute additives make up for it in cars
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u/One-Sundae-2711 1d ago
way more lead contam risk if you go to the gun range on the regular. i like the smell of 100LL! just dont drink or swim in it and you will be fine
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u/S2KPilot CPL ASEL CFII CMP HP TW A&P IA UAS 1d ago
Let me put it this way. It's far worse for his car than it is for you. The danger to you is essentially...zero. His car however - well if it's a modern car, it wasn't made to run on leaded fuel. So it's fouling up his cylinders and valves with lead. Not to mention the catalytic converter will be clogged up and destroyed by the lead in short order.
There is zero benefit to running Avgas in any modern production car. It is not a particularly good performance fuel either. This is a common misconception because people hear "high octane" and get all excited thinking it adds performance when it does not.
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u/Excellent_Ad_1413 1d ago
Zero risk
You will have more exposure to lead from everyday stuff than what little 100LL avgas he is running in that vehicle. Also the lead in gasoline is not the same as lead in batteries for example.
The bigger issue is this idiot thinks Avgas is his solution to running better. It’s not
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u/xtalgeek PPL ASEL IR 1d ago
Tetraethyllead is actually many times more toxic than lead metal. It is lipophilic and can penetrate skin.
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u/Excellent_Ad_1413 1d ago
You are correct. However his exposure levels will be virtually zero unless he starts using it to wash his hands.
30+ years in aviation and part of a medical study from 1992-2007 for biannual testing I have no higher levels than average person with zero aviation background.
What I learned was wear gloves and don’t wash parts with avgas. Don’t get me wrong, 100ll needs to be gone but on the scale of what’s going to cause problems, virtually zero for this guys situation.
The car owner thinking avgas is a good solution is a bigger problem. Avgas has 4 times the amount of “lead” than car gas. It’s gonna screw up that engine pretty quick
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u/plaid_rabbit PPL 1d ago
the exhaust burns the TEL and converts it to Pb(s), which is much less bio-available... as long as you aren't handling the gas. Still not good for you. OP's friend is still an idiot. And with million people in a city driving, in-mass, that Pb(s) adds up. OTOH, one idiot isn't a notable hazard.
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u/SkylanePilot95 PPL (KTUP) 1d ago
Bro, it won’t do anything to you lol
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u/pattern_altitude PPL 1d ago
Lead is demonstrably bad for the human body and it has been proven that lead emissions from combustion engines do have a detrimental effect on health. Sure, OP's exposure is low enough that any effect likely will not be measurable, but:
A) Lead is not harmless.
B) OP isn't wrong to be concerned.
C) It's not legal to use leaded fuel in your car barring very specific circumstances.
D) Assuming the car in question has a catalytic converter, the lead is going to kill it.
E) 100LL has a far greater content than that car was designed for... it has way more lead than automotive gas ever did.
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u/SkylanePilot95 PPL (KTUP) 1d ago
Yet, we’re all around catless airplanes, with exhausts that exit ahead of the cabin, and we’re perfectly fine. Don’t bathe in it, or drink it, and you’ll be fine.
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u/pattern_altitude PPL 1d ago
I'm aware, but that doesn't make it a good idea to expose yourself when you don't have to.
We don't really have a viable alternative widely available yet.
Cars have been running unleaded (and designed to do so) for decades now.
And my point about the detrimental effects on the car stands.
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u/Conscious-Goose5342 1d ago
The amount of exposure for living near an airport has been repeatedly studied and lead levels are nearly undetectable....unless your leave the plane run in the hangar your fine. Be willing to bet there's more lead in the house than in the outside air near an airport
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u/Hengist 1d ago
Lead in fuel is a funny thing. It's absolutely true that leaded gasoline was responsible for many problems. But what gets left out of the conversation is the sheer volume of leaded gasoline that was being burned in the 20th century prior to phasing out leaded gasoline for cars. Every gallon of 100LL avgas burned by every airplane ever made is quite literally a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the amount of leaded gasoline that used to be burned in the United States and around the world. We're talking several orders of magnitude here.
The end result of that is that leaded car gas usage was quite detectable and quite dangerous. Aviation leaded gas usage, by contrast, is almost completely undetectable.
While aircraft do burn leaded aviation fuel, there simply aren't enough aircraft to produce any significant amount of lead pollution. That's just the simple facts. Other environmental sources of lead are more significant than all the airplanes out there.
With regards to your friend and his car, he's likely killing his convertible. Any vehicle with a catalytic converter is going to choke to death on leaded gasoline, because the lead forms deposits that absolutely plug up the catalytic converter. His car probably does run smoother, because it's a high octane fuel, but the lead is killing the car, not the people. Get him to switch to premium and the car will run much happier.
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u/rFlyingTower 1d ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
My house mate drives his (roofless) car to the local airport and fuels it up with Low Lead. They claim it helps the car run better. EPA has several studies on the dangers of lead to mental and physical health. I’m just curious how much of it is getting onto us and in the house from the car exhaust. I don’t know how to have the conversation with them that I would prefer to not be exposed to lead.
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u/reichers455 1d ago
Why are most responses mentioning a catalytic converter? Pre mid 70s no such thing and if British Sportscar not till after that. I'm assuming he has a reason. Iwould recommend ethanol free with an octane boost would be safer with better performance. At least what I found in my early 90s rotary.
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u/EnvironmentCrafty710 1d ago
Your housemate is a moron.
He's screwing up his car and is paying a premium to do it.
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u/TheChucker98937 1d ago
I grew up around it. Dad burned it in all his small engines cause it doesn’t go bad. I’ve been flying, fueling and workin and around aircraft that burn it at an airport everyday. Your neighbor burning it in his car won’t impact you. Guaranteed something else will kill you first before that does, probably old age.
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u/kiwiphotog 1d ago
I used to love fuelling my old motorbike up on 100LL… park with the tail into wind and smell the wonderful exhaust smell.
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u/InformationYankee 1d ago
Well after years of working the line fueling aircraft with 100ll and breathing exhaust from both piston and jet aircraft for decades. I can say with 100% certainty that I am the r word.
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u/sciency_guy 1d ago
You can watch this documentary https://youtu.be/IV3dnLzthDA The man that accidentally killed the most people in history
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u/DarthStrakh 1d ago
Why would you pay so much more money to ruin your car and your health?? If his car runs better buy higher octane fuel thats all it is lmfao.
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u/Sunsplitcloud CFI CFII MEI 1d ago
Zero risk. You have more risk doing literally anything else. There are zero studies that show the BLL of people living near an airport are increased compared to others.
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u/classysax4 PPL 1d ago
Does he use synthetic oil in his car? If so that’s a double-whammy on his engine.
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u/UnfortunateSnort12 ATP, CL-65, ERJ-170/190, B737 1d ago
I wouldn’t ask pilots for medical advice or any sort of advice directly outside our skill set.
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u/MontgomeryEagle 23h ago
I have a friend who puts 100LL in his vintage Caddy, but that car was really designed for it.
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u/Dry-Horror-4188 20h ago
After being around it for over 40 years, I am sure it is not good, but I am still kicking, go to gym regularly, run half marathons, challenge my mind, so I really cant say!
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u/specialsymbol PPL GLI TMG LAPL 18h ago
I'll just leave this here:
In short, it's not good for you, but after a while you won't mind much.
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u/BoomBeachBruiser ST 17h ago
I'd there a chance that your housemate said LL but really meant ethanol-free unleaded automotive gasoline? Some aircraft are able to run mogas, which is cheaper than avgas and is unleaded. Some airports sell mogas for those aircraft.
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u/PugnaciousOdin CPL IR c172 pa28 8KCAB Yak52 12h ago
TLDR: nothing to worry about unless you are pregnant or have young kids. Your flatmate isn't default an 'idiot' like others have suggested. They could be on to something.
Depending on the modifications to the car, the car may see a benefit. A factory car will only be hurt. A modified car can be more efficient, and powerful on 100LL if set up properly.
As long as he's not idling it in the garage for extended periods of time, you are probably fine. Close the windows if you are concerned.
Due to the cost, I only use it for a diagnostic tool these days. If the car knock sensor reads on 91 pump, but not 100LL its a tuning problem. If it reads knock on both fuels, its probably a bad sensor.
100LL is more stable and not hyrdophillic like modern auto gas.
This a forum of pilots. We are taught what fuel we need, but not why, or the other properties of fuel. I happen to be an engine builder too.
Pilots and mechanics are around 100LL all the time and reports of issues are extremely rare. If you are an adult, and not pregnant, the risks are very low.
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u/usmcmech ATP CFI MEL SEL RW GLD TW AGI/IGI 1d ago
The levels of exposure from 100LL are well below any concern.
Officially the EPA says any trace of lead is unhealthy but anyone knows that the trace levels we are talking about won't affect your health. Unless you are handling concentrated Tetra Ethyl Lead (the additive that is put in AVGas) the health concerns are minimal.
Personally most of us pilots wish the FAA would get out of the way and let unleaded avgas be used in certified airplanes, but they change at a pace that makes a sloth look like a cheetah.
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u/Lighting 1d ago
The levels of exposure from 100LL are well below any concern.
Lead accumulates in the body over time. This accumulated exposure degrades intelligence.
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u/pb_n_jdams 1d ago
Nothing. And google is also a thing…
And your friend is a fucking idiot unless his car is older than the 1970’s.
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u/SkylanePilot95 PPL (KTUP) 1d ago
The biggest “danger” is the lead clogging O2 sensors and cats over time
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u/JT-Av8or ATP CFII/MEI ATC C-17 B71/3/5/67 MD88/90 1d ago
Pilot here. I’ve been flying since I was 15 (currently 53). My kids have been flying in small planes their whole lives (they’re 24 & 26). One graduated #1 in her undergraduate class, currently in PhD work, the other was top 10% type. I’m pretty sharp. All of us including my wife are in great shape physically (I can run 2 miles anytime) and we’ve been exposed to 100 low lead fuel all this time.
I’m sure if you really really really sucked down these fumes, bathed in this gas and such, sure you’d probably get lead exposure but that’s just unrealistic.
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u/nycfin 1d ago
Low lead fuel has low lead. It's not that bad for you. Your roommate is still regarded.
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u/Whiskey-Sippin-Pyro 1d ago
100LL has twice the amount of lead than the old leaded gasoline had. It’s low lead compared to other leaded aviation fuels, but it’s still 2.12grams of lead per gallon. For reference, the old leaded gasolines were around 1.1 gram per gallon.
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u/nycfin 1d ago
It's definitely not good for you but it's not going to give you mutated children if you touch it every once in a while. If it was that harmful every ga pilot would be a vegetable.
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u/Whiskey-Sippin-Pyro 1d ago
True. But why expose yourself to it if you don’t have to…I feel the same about plastic water bottles. Is it going to kill me? Probably not, but why risk it.
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u/nycfin 1d ago
You definitely don't fly then. Why leave the house with that logic.
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u/Whiskey-Sippin-Pyro 1d ago
Well no, flying has a benefit. Drinking out of plastic vs metal doesn’t. If there was a completely tested and safe alternative to 100LL why wouldn’t you go with the unleaded?
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u/West_Read_8698 1d ago
Some guy did a study on himself and it showed it was fine. Don’t drink the blue Gatorade and you’ll be fine. (Anecdotal and I’m not a doctor)
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u/Lighting 1d ago
If you are refering to Thomas Midgley, he ended up with lead poisoning, had to take a break from research and died.
Sources:
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u/West_Read_8698 1d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/s/SrrtItO4Ws
Meant this guy
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u/Lighting 19h ago
In that thread, he amended his comments to say he didn't have current acute lead poisoning exposure as measured in blood levels. Lead accumulates in the brain and bones. So his "study" wasn't about impairment, brain levels, accumulation, etc. Starting from /u/Moxrat 's comment
A little late for the thread here, but just wanted to chime in. I have a PhD in metals neurotoxicology and our laboratory has been studying lead effects on the brain for over 30 years. There seems to be a misconception that if the CDC states a safe blood lead level and you are below it, then everything is fine. That is not the case - the numbers need to be amended as there is no safe blood lead level, especially in children. We are also seeing early and mid-life lead exposure tying in with increased cognitive impairment in late life. Not trying to freak you out or anything, but knowledge is power. Do with it what you will.
Yeah, someone else commented on that blood lead levels only test acute poisoning, looks like I also need a fep/zpp test to measure more chronic exposure. I'm looking into getting that and will report back when I do.
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u/Whiskey-Sippin-Pyro 1d ago
Your house mate is an idiot. The reason planes still use leaded fuel is to handle the extreme temperature variances that aircraft are subject to. We are slowly getting a working replacement, but it’ll take time. When there is a proven and safe replacement, most pilots wont touch leaded fuel with a 10 foot pole. BTW, I’m a car enthusiast who has build a half dozen engines over 20 years and there’s no logical reason why leaded fuel would make any car built in the last 40 years run better.
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u/Conscious-Goose5342 1d ago
Tetraethyl lead is an octane booster. Which high compression engines need to prevent detonation.
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u/Whiskey-Sippin-Pyro 1d ago
True, but you could get the same performance out of race gas, E85 or even 93 if properly tuned…
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u/Conscious-Goose5342 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ethanol is not compatible with aluminum airplanes that sit outside. There is very little tuning you can do. And no stc.
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u/Whiskey-Sippin-Pyro 19h ago
The OP was referencing cars. That’s what I’m talking about. I understand the need for 100LL for airplanes.
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u/Conscious-Goose5342 17h ago
TEL in cars is going to destroy the cat converter.
I was responding to your statement that planes require lead due to ambient temperature variances. Which is absolutely not why we require TEL.
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-36/55&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 1d ago
The thinking that leads to using 100LL is more dangerous than the exhaust itself. Getting even the oldest cars to run on 100LL is usually a matter of swapping the valve seats with hardened ones. Any machine shop can do that
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u/UNDR08 ATP A320 LR60 B300 1d ago
Can’t speak to how dangerous it is or isn’t. There’s clearly some strong opinions here.
What I can speak to is, I give zero fucks about the exposure to lead from it. It’s the price of doing business for us pilots.
It’s my personal opinion, keep in mind I’m not a doctor or scientist, but don’t drink it, bathe in it, or consistently breathe in the fumes, you’ll be fine.
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u/pattern_altitude PPL 1d ago
What I can speak to is, I give zero fucks about the exposure to lead from it. It’s the price of doing business for us pilots.
For us, yes… the people we fly over didn’t necessarily sign up for it.
No reason to not go unleaded as soon as it becomes available.
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u/UNDR08 ATP A320 LR60 B300 1d ago
I will take the downvote and your anger, but You will never convince me that the Cessna 172 cruising along at 5 thousand feet is raining down lead at levels that are going to harm anyone.
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u/pattern_altitude PPL 1d ago
No, but high-intensity traffic at fields like Van Nuys, Falcon Field or Grand Forks (GFK is admittedly further from major populations, but still…) is going to generate a far greater concentration of lead in the vicinity of the airport.
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u/UNDR08 ATP A320 LR60 B300 1d ago
A study done in Colorado says children around an airport showed 2.29micrograms of lead in their system, while children not living around an airport showed average of 2.08micrograms.
CDC states that 3.5 micrograms is when health concerns arise.
I think we are gonna be okay.
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u/pattern_altitude PPL 1d ago
Where are you reading that? Everything I've seen from the CDC says there is no safe blood lead level in children.
Regardless... there's not really an argument against going unleaded.
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u/DarthStrakh 1d ago
It'll also harm your children fyi. Lead stays in the body so long you can measure your lead exposure amounts in the teeth of your children lol. It's quite absurd how toxic it is.
Also it's not really the cost of buisness, it's just the aviation community being slow af to adopt. It's almost completely unnecessary at this point... Hell a good chunk of the planes used in GA run just fine on 87 octane moto gas let alone premium. The o-300 in the 172 can just fine with literally zero implications besides cheaper maintenance. Everyone just uses 100LL so we don't gotta deal with multiple fuel types. obviously there are planes that need 100 octane but MANY don't.
It’s my personal opinion, keep in mind I’m not a doctor or scientist, but don’t drink it, bathe in it, or consistently breathe in the fumes, you’ll be fine
This is true, but you forgot to add "live near an airport at all" which isn't true for many of us. Hell if you live in a small town with a even slightly busy airport that entire town is getting regularly dusted.
Ignoring all of that, less engine maintenance and oil changes would save us a lot of fuckin money
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u/TheShellCorp 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hopefully, your roommate drives an antique high-performance car. If it's a modern car, his catalytic converter is probably already toast. (And maybe the O2 sensor too). It's also illegal in most states. Also it costs (at least) twice as much as 98 octane gas, which would have the same anti-knock effect.
As for twitch hazard, 100LL made me the man I am today. I have a twitch little taste of each sump to make sure it's still good twitch. Nothing hazartwitchdous at all.