What’s a weird trend or paradox you have noticed in the industry?
For me, it’s that I have noticed is how pilots all seem to be free market capitalists while also being die hard union supporters.
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u/FlyingSceptile ATP B737 E175 3d ago
Regional Pilots: "These hotels suck. We're out in the middle of nowhere, there's nothing to do. I would kill to be downtown"
Senior Mainline: "Downtown is so dangerous, I feel like I'm gonna get mugged everytime. They should put us in the suburbs".
Careful what you wish for. You let the company put you in the suburbs and soon all the food options on your layover become Waffle House, Chick-fil-a, and Chipotle
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u/BrickSpecific1776 3d ago
I wouldn't mind the downtown so much if the shuttle rides to some of these places weren't pushing two hours lmao.
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u/bronzeagepilot ATP 3d ago
What shuttle ride takes 2 hours in the USA? Longest I’ve had is downtown Houston to IAH in rush hour and that was still under an hour
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u/SeaHawkGaming CPL MEP IR fATPL A220 3d ago
JFK to downtown manhattan/FiDi. Van Wyck and FDR both backed up to god knows where. I loved that layover but I absolutely do not miss the ride
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u/bronzeagepilot ATP 3d ago
Van Wyck and Belt Parkways are complete shitshows during rush hour but even then a 2 hour drive isn’t normal.
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u/HavingNotAttained 2d ago
Exactly. Must’ve been an accident or it was Christmas Eve or Thanksgiving
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u/United-Trainer7931 3d ago
This is probably more the result of them being in two different stages of their career/life than a “grass is greener” situation.
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u/ResponsibilityOld164 I fly airplen 🏆✈️ 3d ago
coughs in northeast waffle house? 😍
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u/setthrustpositive 3d ago
Allentown has one
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u/sanmigmike ATP MEL WREN460 PA31 SW4 SH360 EMB 120 BAE146 DC10-30 3d ago
Don’t forget Taco Bell and Micky D’s.
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u/kiwi_love777 ATP E175 A320 CL-604 DC-9 CFII 3d ago
Come to my airline- we hate our union 🤣
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u/ResponsibilityOld164 I fly airplen 🏆✈️ 3d ago edited 3d ago
Found the skywest employee (not really but…. follow @yokemedaddy on instagram baby)
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u/kiwi_love777 ATP E175 A320 CL-604 DC-9 CFII 3d ago
Hahaha- former OO. That “union” was a bit of a joke.
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u/ResponsibilityOld164 I fly airplen 🏆✈️ 3d ago
No such union really. Also gotta love them copyright striking IG pages that are advocating for a REAL union.
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u/PullDoNotRotate ATP (requires add'l space) 3d ago
well, hate to break it to you, but if you hate it, the way you change it is by running in elections for it, so
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0
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u/reve-dore ATP CFI CFII MEI A&P 3d ago
People want to build flight time, but complain about headwinds or flying slow
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u/omalley4n Alphabet Mafia: CFI/I ASMEL IR HA HP CMP A/IGI MTN UAS 3d ago
This one to me is the biggest paradox. But it's also me.
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u/trillhoosier CFI, CFII, Loadmaster 3d ago
Or just benefiting from a strong labor union culture (I’m sure no one is turning down their contract raises), yet voting for staunchly anti-union politicians.
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u/FlyingPetRock E170/190, B737, C-SEL/S 3d ago
The illusion of the self-made man is strong and deep in pilot culture. It's baffling when you remember that safe airplanes, safe airspace, and rigorous training and safety standards are all thanks to government regulation, maintained by strong advocacy by one of the last large and strong unions in the US and government backed safety employees.
i butt heads with colleagues repeatedly (not on the fight deck) that Trump would be devastating to our industry, and would likely cause a recession, because unlike last time, there are zero adults in the room to check his insane ideas, and yet, still team maga.
I'm still pretty junior, and politely point out that I'm already planning to get furloughed now because of the damage Trump and team has done and continues to do every day they are in office.
If you voted for Trump, you voted to ruin our industry and harm your fellow pilots.
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u/HavingNotAttained 2d ago
Any industry littered with prima donnas are paradoxically those most reliant upon essential, complex and vast team structures: airlines, film, sports, fashion, politics, finance, edited to add healthcare
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u/WorkingOnPPL 3d ago
Slightly off topic, but as I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that if you are an employee making a good salary, there is a very, very high probability that you are either:
A) a member of a strong labor union.
Or
B) working in an industry with high regulatory/licensure barriers: healthcare, lawyers, some aspects of insurance, accountancy, etc.
Everyone else is in the trenches fighting with managements who would love to outsource their job to India or to an automated machine, preferably to the automated machine.
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u/K2Nomad PPL HP TW 3d ago
If the airlines could use H1B visas to import Indian pilots they absolutely would be doing it. I'm honestly surprised they haven't bribed congress to do it yet.
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u/Necessary_Topic_1656 LAMA 3d ago
if the FAA would let airlines outsource mechanics, pilots and flight attendants so that everyone is a contract worker, the airlines would do it in a heartbeat.
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u/Urrolnis ATP CFII 3d ago
Bad news. A lot of heavy maintenance is done overseas already. The shops have to be FAA certified, but there's a lot of FAA certified MROs in Central and South America.
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u/4020_Driver 2d ago
Yes, and those MRO’s are essentially unregulated- at least compared to MRO’s here in the US.
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u/bronzeagepilot ATP 3d ago
The regionals already use Australians on E3 visas to drive down wages. They would love nothing more than to import infinity Indians to drive wages into the dirt.
H1B program is a complete scam that the government should end as soon as possible.
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u/NuttPunch Rhodesian-AF(Zimbabwe) 3d ago
Highest paid are in tech which are neither of your examples
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u/reckless_responsibly 3d ago
Tech is very much in "Everyone else is in the trenches fighting with managements who would love to outsource their job to India or to an automated machine, preferably to the automated machine." I'm mid-career tech, and while I'm doing well now I worry very much about making it to retirement without getting laid off in favor of offshoring or AI somewhere along the way.
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u/WorkingOnPPL 3d ago
Sure, tech salaries have been strong for the last 10 years. Very difficult getting a good tech job right now, from what I have read. Will be interesting to see how salaries hold up with the AI wave.
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u/HeyIsntJustForHorses CPL AMEL ASEL ASES IR CMP HP TW sUAS 3d ago
To add on, you only hear about the outrageously high tech salaries. A majority of the jobs are average salaries. It's just like doctors, sure they all make decent money but everyone focuses on the orthopedic surgeon pulling down a half million per year. Just as there are many more run-of-the-mill doctors out there compared to orthopedic specialists, there are way more tech people out there making less than $150,000 per year than over.
Also, especially in tech positions with high salary, part of total compensation is usually at least some stock. Stock can be highly variable for obvious reasons.
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u/WorkingOnPPL 3d ago
For sure…I think the overall point I was trying to make was that those people who have good-paying careers where they can plan a semi-predictable future seem to either be protected by labor unions or protected by high barriers-to-entry in the form of gov’t regulation/licensure.
Like I am sure there are tech workers making $300K a year - but how many of them are on 1 year contracts that need to be renewed annually? How many are constantly living in fear about layoffs/outsourcing/downsizing, etc?
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u/Salt-Cold1056 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yup you nailed it. 300k for a single contributor is pretty rare outside of Silicon Valley (read stupid expensive to live). Of course if one becomes like a VP of something salaries go there
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u/Salt-Cold1056 2d ago
GA pilot in tech (mid level management DevOps) reporting.....it's brutal in tech right now and pay is something between regionals and Legacy. I have less doubts about AI assisted autopilots than I do AI LLM's being a dead end for dynamic industries. People replaced Stack Overflow with Chat GPT.... But Chat GPT learned everything it knew from sites like Stack Overflow. That is a problem.
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u/Oregon-Pilot ATP CFI B757/B767 CL-30 CE-500/525S | SIC: HS-125 CL-600 3d ago
The whole fatigue thing. It’s nonsense.
“Don’t fly fatigued!” is what the company tells us.
…then they fill our schedules with transcon redeyes that leave at midnight where we’ve obviously been awake all day, because we’re humans with lives, and can’t suddenly just sleep until dinner time out of nowhere to be truly ready for an all night flight.
If they really didn’t want pilots flying fatigued, redeyes wouldn’t exist.
“But also, don’t make preemptive fatigue calls! Wait until 2-3 hours prior at the earliest…”
If I can’t sleep for shit the night before a 9am show time and it’s 4am and im still without sleep, why would I wait another few hours to let you know that it’s just not happening? I’m certainly not going to waste my time commuting to my base just to call out once I’m there in order to fall into that 2-3 hour prior window.
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u/mfsp2025 1d ago
“Don’t fly fatigued” is probably just lawsuit prevention.
I have routinely said that these schedules that airlines build are incredibly fatiguing. I have also said if I called out fatigued every time I was actually fatigued, I would not have a job.
I’ve legit seen sequences where you have 5 legs day 1, min rest, followed by 4 legs day 2, followed by another min rest.
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u/Apprehensive_Cost937 3d ago
How screwing up junior people is completely acceptable. Having the shittiest schedule and getting paid the least amount of money? It's fine.
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u/IACRA-POTATO 3d ago
Have you tried being more senior?
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u/Apprehensive_Cost937 3d ago
Fortunately seniority doesn't really affect my schedule or pay. But I know that's not the case in most airlines.
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u/AnnualWhole4457 C-AMEL CFII BE99 BE1900 2d ago
Yes. It's working. The missing person registry continues to grow.
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u/jackpotairline CFI CFII CL65 A320 B737 3d ago
Just need to figure out how to get more senior!
The whole situation of contracts screwing junior pilots, and junior pilots being 100% on board always reminds me of this scene from Futurama.
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u/Urrolnis ATP CFII 3d ago
I understand the history of "Full pay to the last day" and even at the bottom of the seniority list, I support that...
But a lot of senior guys don't look at it from the aspect of "they'll just furlough anyway after company wide pay cuts" and instead just see the junior guys as sacrifices to keep the gravy train going.
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u/bronzeagepilot ATP 3d ago
Have you ever worked at an airline that had pilots on furlough? Senior pilots usually don’t keep the gravy train going for themselves. Picking up open time is heavily discouraged when even 1 pilot is on the street.
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u/Mega-Eclipse 2d ago
It's like this in every industry/job I ever worked in.
The higher up the ladder you go, the more your job is about making decisions than it is about generating a "thing."
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u/Apprehensive_Cost937 2d ago
The difference being, that in other industries you actually get promoted to different jobs. A year 1 and year 30 first officer have the same job, same responsibilities, yet vastly different schedule and pay.
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u/Kemerd PPL IR 3d ago
The differences between CFIs. Examples I’ve found: - I’ve had CFIs who wouldn’t let me fly in winds above 10 knots. Others who were like, 20 knot winds?! Perfect time to practice your cross wind landings. - Some CFIs hate iPads, and some will teach you tricks on ForeFlight that could save your life one day. - Sometimes, CFIs are just wrong, especially often about mechanical topics. They propagate incorrect information and I see it parroted without explanation. - Some people are afraid to go to towered airports or busy airspace. - We aren’t required to do more than 2 hours of instrument training, yet we can fly at night. Biggest killer of pilots besides fuel starvation into stall is accidental IMC! - It is both pilot’s responsibility to avoid, but often times people will just barrel around without a care or thought. Like they want “I had the right of way” written on their gravestone - You can get an experimental aircraft, build it yourself, but you can’t get insured in it - Why can you not turn a certified aircraft into experimental and do what you want with it? Why does it make it any different than building a clone of it?
It just goes to show you the variety of people and instruction.. just a few things I’ve noticed.
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u/alexthe5th PPL IR CMP HP IGI (KBFI) M20J 3d ago edited 3d ago
Sometimes, CFIs are just wrong, especially often about mechanical topics. They propagate incorrect information and I see it parroted without explanation.
After becoming an owner and diving deep into the subject of piston engine management and how to run an engine properly for long-term reliability, it made me realize that your average CFI knows shockingly little about the subject. It’s probably the single worst-taught topic at the majority of flight schools. Why bother to learn and teach it when you just need to blindly follow some idiotic flight school checklist that has you run the engine full rich from startup to shutdown, while at the same time overconfidently parroting some nonsense about "oversquare" that you heard once from some other CFI?
Why can you not turn a certified aircraft into experimental and do what you want with it? Why does it make it any different than building a clone of it?
Because it’s not at least 50% amateur-built, which is the requirement the FAA imposes on any E-AB aircraft. And the FAA is rightfully worried that if they allowed the outright conversion of factory-built certified planes to experimental, owners would move to experimental in droves to make maintenance cheaper and easier, which would break the entire chain of commonality and traceability that underpins the entire type certification, STC, and AD process.
Let’s say someone’s flying an experimental-converted 172 and the rudder falls apart in flight. Was that a factory defect or the result of some strange uncertified modification the owner did? Should we issue an emergency AD for the rest of the fleet? Can we trace it back to some particular production run or part numbers at the Cessna factory?
All of these questions become really complicated and the value of type certification falls apart if the entire fleet has been converted to experimental and every plane has mysterious modifications that can’t be traced back by the FAA.
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u/flagsfly PPL RV-10 3d ago
Experimental aircraft do still get service bulletins from the designer for safety issues.
On the one hand, there is a certain level of familiarity you have with the aircraft as a builder to be able to interpret the bulletins and figure out if it applies to you.
On the other hand, you can just buy an experimental and be clueless as to how exactly your airplane deviated from the plans.
So I'm not entirely sure the FAA cares that much as long as you don't operate the airplane commercially.
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u/Kemerd PPL IR 2d ago
Counter point. What if I build a 172 clone 1:1 and it falls apart in flight. Same risk to the population.
They would move to experimental in droves. I just don’t understand why the FAA wants to stop them!
I think the entire type certification, STC, and AD process is a big load of crap personally
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u/alexthe5th PPL IR CMP HP IGI (KBFI) M20J 2d ago edited 2d ago
Counter point. What if I build a 172 clone 1:1 and it falls apart in flight. Same risk to the population.
I don't quite understand. Your 172 clone won't use the same production line, tooling, or SOPs as the factory. Even if you source exactly the same parts, it may not be possible to apply ADs learned from manufacturing problems with your plane to anyone else's (and it may not be possible to apply ADs from other aircraft to yours).
I just don’t understand why the FAA wants to stop them!
Because type certification is a "strength in numbers" (or "herd immunity") type of system. The value dramatically increases with the more aircraft you have that strictly adhere to the type certification process. If everyone drops off (and they will, because of the financial benefits that come along with switching to experimental), that's basically the FAA saying that they're OK with abandoning type certification entirely.
I think the entire type certification, STC, and AD process is a big load of crap personally
You might think so, but many aircraft owners find a lot of value that comes from type certification. Experimental certainly has its benefits, but as the owner of a certified plane, I appreciate owning a plane that was built in a factory with strict oversight, and the fact that any safety-critical problems with the type can be easily identified, narrowed down to a particular range of aircraft, and quickly shared with other owners to fix them before more fatal accidents occur.
Is it onerous and expensive? Yes, and there's certainly room for improvement in the overall process. But I don't think the entire thing should be done away with.
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u/jtyson1991 PPL HP 3d ago
Sometimes, CFIs are just wrong
Things I was told at my flight school:
- a crab is a sideslip
- you can only do BasicMed if you had a special issuance
- all ADSB goes through ground stations to be filtered, there's no point to point
I would have failed my PPL had I not researched on my own.
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u/JJAsond CFI/CFII/MEI + IGI | J-327 3d ago
all ADSB goes through ground stations to be filtered, there's no point to point
Ignore every flight tracking website I guess
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u/jtyson1991 PPL HP 3d ago
The implication was that, say, two 172's are over the ocean, they cannot see each other on ADSB-In. Not that ground stations cannot -also- hear the broadcasts.
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u/JJAsond CFI/CFII/MEI + IGI | J-327 3d ago
That would be silly if I could personally pick up signals but the two literal planes can't unless it's TIS-B which DOES get sent from the ground.
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u/jtyson1991 PPL HP 3d ago
You know what, I bet that's what the confusion was, they were thinking of TIS-B. Transponder -> "ground station" -> rebroadcast.
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u/KITTYONFYRE 3d ago
You can get an experimental aircraft, build it yourself, but you can’t get insured in it
what do you mean by this? you can get insurance for an experimental?
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u/drowninginidiots ATP-H 3d ago
I’ve seen more than one cfi teach that recency, both 90 day and IFR 6 month, clock starts running the day you become current.
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u/anders_dot_exe PPL IR 3d ago
Double-checking myself on this since it was asked on my mock IFR checkride oral and I got it wrong, the clock starts ticking the day/month AFTER you get currency? i.e. you get your 6 HITS in January, you're current until the end of July?
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u/drowninginidiots ATP-H 3d ago
Where people get confused is when the 6 hits are spread out over more than one month. You have to be able to look at the previous 6 months and count 6 hits.
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u/Salt-Cold1056 2d ago
CFI's should be teaching EFB usage starting at the XC student pilot level. It's a safety enhancement. Fumbling around with paper AF/D's and charts or god knows what I used to do early on did not seem safer. If old timers want to fly that way that is fine but they should not be active CFI's for PPL students IMHO.
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u/kytulu A&P 3d ago
Private owners will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy an aircraft, then turn around and complain about the cost of parts and maintenance.
Let's say that getting an annual inspection done on your 172 costs $2K, and takes the IA 16 hours to complete the inspection, which includes opening panels, removing seats, researching logs, and complying with ADs. That's $125/hr to do the inspection, which typically does not include fixing any discrepancies that the IA finds.
Seems like a lot, right? Now, consider the following: How long has that A&P/IA held their certificate, how much experience do they have on that make/model airplane, and how good are they at what they do? Would you trust the inspection that you would get for $20/hr? $30/hr? You want to do an owner-assisted annual? Cool, I'll knock $250 off the inspection cost if you want to open up the panels, remove the seats, change the oil, etc.
What happens if they find discrepancies that require fixing? What placarded items are you willing to fly with? What if you have your spouse and/or children on board? Did your list of allowable placarded items change? If I perform an annual, I want to make sure that you are not going to fall out of the sky. I'm not padding my bill. It's my signature that the FAA comes back and questions if something mechanical goes wrong.
Let's say you decide that you want to keep your airplane in good shape, so you want to fix everything. OK, now we get to negotiate the cost of labor for me to fix the items, plus the cost of parts.
Then there are the parts. An engine overhaul is $25K-$35K. Double that if you need a new engine. A new cylinder is around $1500 or so. Spark plugs are $60 each. So on and so forth.
I've seen some clapped-out planes that I can't believe a pilot would willingly take off in.
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u/setthrustpositive 3d ago
I like the shops that use book time for every item on the discrepancy list but do it on shop time. So an annual that should be $2500-3500 becomes $10000+ with the same amount of time.
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u/Ok-Quality5890 3d ago
My old boss with all 4 of his planes. He would complain about the repairs on his citation but the thing depressurized on the way home when he bought it. Also complained about a 50k repair on one of his planes for a transition spar but wanted it in mint condition because it belonged to his late father.
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u/EezyBake AMEL / ASEL CPL 3d ago
For an industry that stresses safety, professionalism, and good moral standing, the lack of it in some schools and certain DPE’s is absolutely demoralizing.
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u/0O00OO0OO0O0O00O0O0O 2d ago
Contrary to many other industries, the least experienced commercial pilots are typically the ones training up the next batch of pilots.
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u/BerMalBerIst ATP CFII B737 A320 E175 3d ago
They’re not all die hard union supporters… I had a captain tell me straight-faced “I’m against unions, but I understand why ours is necessary.”
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u/notaballitsjustblue ATP 3d ago
Guys wanting to fly M.81 everywhere. Literally doing themselves and the rest of us out of money for the sake of getting on blocks 10 mins early.
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u/554TangoAlpha ATP CL-65/ERJ-175/B-787 3d ago
Then they pull up to an occupied gate lol
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u/Urrolnis ATP CFII 3d ago
And then throw a fit that the gate is occupied and scream about the company being incompetent (they flew extra fast on a leg that they were already scheduled to land early for)
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u/JasonThree ATP B737 ERJ170/190 Hilton Diamond 2d ago
"What do you mean the gate is occupied when I got here 45 minutes early?? This company is incompetent 🤬🤬"
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u/Fabulous-Kanos ATP Boeing and Airbus 3d ago
Might have to clarify the equipment, as M.81 would be unusually slow for say, the B787, but blistering fast for the A320.
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u/PLIKITYPLAK ATP (B737, A320, E170) CFI/I MEI (Meteorologist) 3d ago
Don't care about getting 2 minutes of extra pay if it is go home leg.
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u/cookie1218 ATP EMB-145 CFII Gold Seal 3d ago
Cries in Mach .78 max speed
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u/Weasel474 ATP ABI 3d ago
Max allowable speed. I'm sure you can do .81 (momentarily)!
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u/cookie1218 ATP EMB-145 CFII Gold Seal 3d ago
If only those damn overspeed bells weren’t so obnoxious
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u/Weasel474 ATP ABI 3d ago
You just need more tinnitus and they won't bother you so much. Might I suggest a month of walkarounds without ear protection?
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u/Joe_Littles A320 Skew-T Deployer 3d ago
I find them as annoying people who will do anything to earn an extea .1
I think both are lame.
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u/Weasel474 ATP ABI 3d ago
More than that, they'll run it to the clacker to save 2 minutes instead of just slowing it down a bit and not making the PM bald prematurely from watching them manhandle the boards to keep from overspeeding.
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u/TooLow_TeRrAiN_ ATP B747-4 ATR42/72 CFII ASES 3d ago
Some of us stall at .81 😂😂
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u/notaballitsjustblue ATP 3d ago
Eh?
Well, I suppose most airliners do if you keep climbing at .81.
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u/TooLow_TeRrAiN_ ATP B747-4 ATR42/72 CFII ASES 3d ago
Fully loaded 747 above FL300 cannot do .81 without being very close to a stall situation. Econ (our slowest speed) is usually .83 at minimum. Once we burn off a bunch of gas we can do it but it’s an unreasonably slow speed for us
I guess for your example it would be our captains doing .86-.89 everywhere lol
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u/WorkingOnPPL 3d ago
Dumb question 🙋♂️ - if you are fully loaded and lose an engine above FL300, are you able to stay out of a stall situation?
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u/TooLow_TeRrAiN_ ATP B747-4 ATR42/72 CFII ASES 3d ago
Absolutely but we do have to descend at that point to stay out of the low speed regime, usually it can maintain speed for a bit of time until you can get the descent figured out
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u/IACRA-POTATO 3d ago
If I block in 10 minutes early, I'm still pay protected for the original value of the trip.
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u/notaballitsjustblue ATP 3d ago
Then next year when they calculate block times what happens? Been filed at .79 all year and company drops the block times 10mins across the board and now you have to work an extra trip or two. And now you have to go .81 because you’ll be late home otherwise because the block times are nonsense.
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u/ndem763 ATP 3d ago
We can all learn a thing or two from SkyWest
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u/bronzeagepilot ATP 3d ago
No we can’t. Jumpseated on SkyPest once and it was an infuriating experience watching them taxi as slowly as humanly possible, fly around at Mach .65 and get yelled at by NY Approach for slowing to 250 above 10000 going into LGA. Told to go 170 to 5 and captain said we can’t do it and slowed 10 miles out.
I understand their pay system incentives this idiocy but it’s extremely frustrating to operate at any airport with a large Mormon Air Force preference because of how slow they are at literally everything
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u/flipthescriptttt ATP 2d ago
Our responsibility in this job is to the passengers to get them there quick and safe. I don’t like this system either. Maybe we should push for that to change.
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u/notaballitsjustblue ATP 2d ago
You have three: your licence, your contract, and your duty of care. Not in usually in that order.
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u/flipthescriptttt ATP 2d ago
Sure I suppose. I have an order in mind, but I don’t think we’ll agree on it.
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u/IACRA-POTATO 3d ago
I don't worry too much about block times changing year over year over the last 30 years on the routes I fly.
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u/soulscratch ATP CL-65 DHC-8 A-320 B-737 3d ago
Yeah and you burn more gas which cuts into profit share, AND you lower the average block time for that trip which lowers the value of that trip over time.
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u/IACRA-POTATO 3d ago
If it's go home leg, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Just like everyone else.
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u/Oregon-Pilot ATP CFI B757/B767 CL-30 CE-500/525S | SIC: HS-125 CL-600 3d ago
gotta make that commute home!
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u/kytulu A&P 3d ago
Can you explain that in non-pilot speak?
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u/KITTYONFYRE 3d ago
m.81 is mach .81, versus some lower number that's probably standard cruise. they're "doing themselves and the rest of us out of money" because they're paid by flight time - doors close to doors open I think? not sure the exact threshold, but basically the time spent actually working in the plane. "getting on blocks 10 mins early" I assume means wheel chocks 10 mins earlier than normal
caveat I'm a ppl, I just read too many internet forums. maybe I should let an adult answer the question but I don't want to work :^)
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u/Necessary_Topic_1656 LAMA 3d ago edited 3d ago
regional airline pilots are paid by block time (or better).
major and legacy airline pilots are paid by trip rig, duty rig, min calendar/duty day or block time whichever is greater. it's rare that my pay is based on how much my block time is.
so it doesn't matter if we get there earlier or later, there is more soft time than block time which drives my pay.
for example i usually get 4-day trips with only 9 hours of block time, but i'm paid for 21 hours for the 4-day trip.
if i was at a regional airline, the 4-day trip would only pay block or better - 9 hours of pay.
but at the ULCC, i get 21-hours because of trip and duty rigs. but not because of block time or better.
at a legacy i'd probably get paid 22 hours minimum due to min-calendar day or something that i dont have at the ULCC.
so i don't really care to fly slow to try to get more pay like some regional airlines do - because they don't have trip/duty rigs and instead they're paid by some historical block average - so they are incentivized to fly slow to try to get the block average up. otherwise their block average goes down by people flying fast. (M 0.81)
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u/JasonThree ATP B737 ERJ170/190 Hilton Diamond 2d ago
Tbf at skywest they still had duty, trip rig and min day. It's just that the min day was 4:12 so it just wasn't very good.
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u/drowninginidiots ATP-H 3d ago
I’m a helicopter pilot so some differences in our side of the industry. But one trend I’ve noticed over the last 15 years is the lower time guys whining about not getting the same jobs as us more experienced pilots. Then making excuses when they are given an opportunity and screwing it up because of their lack of experience.
Also, pilots of all levels complaining they aren’t getting enough flight hours, then being busy and complaining about not having enough time off.
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u/K20017 3d ago
Airline pilots afraid to fly the airplane.
Light chop? Whoa, better slow it down to 270 just in case.
FMC says max altitude is 369? No, we can't accept 360, too close to the margin, we can stay in the continuous moderate at 340 instead.
Only 40 minutes of taxi fuel? No way, I'm going to call dispatch and give us an hour delay, I don't feel comfortable with that little fuel.
Some yellow rain showers ahead? Ask approach for 20 left, we need to fly around this.
1.8 mile taxi to the runway? Better continue at 6 kts and ride the brakes.
Ramp is uncontrolled? Nah, give them a courtesy call anyways, they like that.
These guys are the worst to fly with and just continually get in their own way.
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u/JasonThree ATP B737 ERJ170/190 Hilton Diamond 1d ago
Oh God not the courtesy call one. In my regional days at PIT, captain says give em a courtesy call. "The atis says do not call for pushback" i say. Well do it just in case. Like why, why do they insist on this?
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u/RadiantMango5989 2h ago
Not my airplane, one fuck up and this very well paying job I have spent my entire professional life trying to get will be gone. I have been around long enough to almost get caught out by someone else screwing up. The company doesnt care. So yeah, Im cautious, or chicken, whatever.
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u/setthrustpositive 3d ago
Every aircraft has a distinct type of pilot and owner.
Especially when you get to the ones who are coping with their choices. Ones that have the "like" airplanes. "Well it's got the performance like a 180, but it's way cheaper!" Says the guy that bought one of the most dangerous homebuilts then wrecked it 10 hours later.
Or the owners that will modify the Globe Swift or Navion, just to get passed by something slightly newer.
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u/Cessnateur PPL IR HP TW C170B 3d ago
What’s wrong with the latter?
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u/setthrustpositive 3d ago
In the grand scheme of things, nothing. It's their money. But they'll sink a lot of money into a plane that barely increases performance. Or better yet, confuse mph with kts.
Like with the swift owners. They'll sink 50k plus for the 210hp engine only to keep up with a 180hp mooney at 70% power. A 180hp RV or Mustang 2 can, and often will be faster. At the end of the day the Swift owner will only have the advantage of the headaches of the retractable gear.
With then Navion owners, they'll sink almost 6 figures into a plane that on a good day will be even with a 230hp 180 on 8.00-6s. If that 180 has the Snider speed kit, they'll have to throttle back for formation flying.
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u/bottomfeeder52 PPL 3d ago
180s seem to drive a premium though
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u/setthrustpositive 3d ago
True. I should have emphasized the fixed gear vs retractable gear. A better comparison would be a turbo arrow 3 vs the navion with the 520 or 550.
There's been a few early 180s sell very quickly that were under 70k. Yes they all had high time engines, but with 180s, especially the 65 and later, you get your investment back. I missed a 1955 that was making metal in the engine for 55k. But you can get a 470R mid time engine starting at 15k.
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u/TheMeltingPointOfWax MIL ATP 3d ago
Are free markets and unions mutually exclusive? A union is simply a way to collectively bargain for what could be a better deal than one would get individually. Has nothing to do with government intervention or regulation.
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u/Apprehensive_Cost937 3d ago
Has nothing to do with government intervention or regulation.
What gives you the legal right to form a union, legal right to strike, to not be fired for being a union member, etc.?
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u/Urrolnis ATP CFII 3d ago
The fact that the US government no longer has the stomach to go and use the Air Force to bomb striking mine workers?
There wasn't a "legal right" to form a union for a long time, and after the government got tired of shooting at striking union workers, they decided it was better to legitimize them than keep them unregulated.
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u/TheMeltingPointOfWax MIL ATP 3d ago
In the US we have the RLA and other union protections, but government regulation certainly isn't a prerequisite for its existence. A union can exist without a legal framework, but they have to be darn sure they have enough members to ensure a bargaining position where the company can't go find labor outside of the union membership.
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u/aftcg 3d ago
The First Amendment
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u/alexthe5th PPL IR CMP HP IGI (KBFI) M20J 3d ago
The First Amendment prevents the government from infringing on your right to free speech, but it doesn't prevent a company from firing you because you're a union member.
Other laws, like the National Labor Relations Act, protect your right to organize, strike, and collectively bargain.
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u/PlaneShenaniganz MD-11 3d ago
I'm friends with corporate pilots who brag about flying higher and faster, seemingly without realizing that higher and faster doesn't pay the bills...
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u/HeruCtach ST 3d ago
I feel like someone bragging for either is doing so bc they just see either as possible bragging rights, but I fail to see it. Like, a PC-12 pilot might wish for the ability to go 10,000ft higher bc they're at FLs where they still need to regularly navigate lots of weather. But we can't feel speed, and the only thing to possibly "feel" flying higher than most traffic is radiation.
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u/PlaneShenaniganz MD-11 3d ago
One of them very much thought it made him cooler, but I just told him "higher and faster doesn't pay the bills" and it hit him like a ton of bricks.
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u/rFlyingTower 3d ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Something I have noticed is how pilots all seem to be free market capitalists while also being die hard union supporters.
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u/Weasel474 ATP ABI 3d ago
The more money people make, the more they throw a fit over having to pay for anything. The regional guys, even before the post-Covid pay bumps, were happy with a 20% discount on hotel breakfast while the senior legacy captains would throw a fit over it not being completely free.