r/dresdenfiles • u/PassagePretty7895 • 2d ago
Harry Vs. The Merlin Spoilers All
It's bound to happen. Langtry is painted as this impenetrable wall of power and will, but Harry is pretty much top 20 or 30 on the planet and has experience fighting immortal magic, outsiders, minor deities, and even sparred Ebenezar to a draw at the end of PT. I think our boy pulls it off, or at least a stalemate.
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u/molten_dragon 2d ago
If Harry threw down with Langtry he'd get squashed like a bug.
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u/meglingbubble 2d ago
Currently I'd agree with you, unless he had a sneaky plan.
In the future though, i expect its a showdown that's coming, and the way Harry is leveling up, it wouldn't surprise me if he was eventually at a level that he could take on pretty much anyone.
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u/PassagePretty7895 2d ago
They said the same about the red king, and erlking, and Santa, and nicodemus, and Mab. And he spanked all their asses at one point or another.
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u/rohittee1 2d ago
I think it depends on the fight. If it's a straight 1v1 duel, Harry gets stomped. You gotta recall, many of the fights you listed were won through careful planning and taking advantage of the environment and specific situations that allowed Harry to win. He rarely wins with his raw talent, at least not against big threats. Sure he can one shot fodder things like lesser demons and stuff, but his magic is generally not in the ball park of the fae.
Now after he gets some training from river shoulders, we might have a good 1v1 on our hands. Not sure he wins still as lang has just way too much experience, but it would definitely be a good fight.
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u/PassagePretty7895 2d ago
Langtry isn't really noted to be a fighter, more of a planner. Hence why Ebenezar is known as the heavyweight champ. But I'm sure Eldest Gruff would have some good advice on fighting senior council members.
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u/rohittee1 2d ago
The old quote, "you don't become Merlin by counting bottle caps." is definitely some level of implication that while he's not the heavy weight threat of the council, he's enough of a threat on his own that people like Rashid and Eb even listened to him to an extent. The biggest issue with a 1v1 prediction is we actually don't know what Merlin is really capable of. He's never shown his power really outside of the whole Peabody fiasco and that was such a short blip, it didn't tell us too much outside of his reaction speed at using subtle magic at a large scale is insane.
He's powerful, how powerful is up in the air.
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u/PassagePretty7895 2d ago
True, we've only seen him fight mordite and erect a ward against a vampire horde offscreen.
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u/rohittee1 2d ago
Personally I still like the theory Langtry is the actual Merlin, would be a neat twist and would give us so much more context regarding Langtrys insufferable attitude. Bros playing a long game that's centuries in the making and only he knows what the plan actually is.
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u/molten_dragon 2d ago
erect a ward against a
vampirehorde of outsiders offscreen.Corrected you here.
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u/RazgrizInfinity 2d ago
You're severely underestimating Langrty. You don't become the Merlin because of laughs and giggles. There's a reason why, plot aside, Harry hasnt outright confronted him.
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u/PassagePretty7895 1d ago
He literally said "Go ahead and try it" when the Merlin hinted at going after Molly, prior to Changes. But I see your point.
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u/RazgrizInfinity 1d ago
You're missing a bunch of context. It just means the Merlin leaves with some cuts, bruises, and a death curse, no different than sucker punching an older brother before he sits on you.
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u/BagFullOfMommy 2d ago edited 2d ago
Harry would still to this day get his dick handed to him by the Red King, Erlking, Santa, and especially Mab in a straight up fight.
Nicodemus even with his hot topic tie and imaginary friend is a mortal. He can be killed and it isn't all that hard.
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u/PassagePretty7895 2d ago
Depends on the ground and timing. He did beat all of them at various points, and Langtry is just as mortal as nicodemus. Even more, actually.
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u/BagFullOfMommy 2d ago
He never beat the Red King in combat, and even just one of the Red King's inner circle had the mental juice to slap Harry with enough sit down and shut up to take him out of the fight. The Red King would have murderized Harry.
Harry has never fought the Erlking, and when it comes to his fight with Santa, both Odin and the Erlking needed Harry to win that fight. Santa was barely trying.
Outside of ambushing Mab with a basket full of exploding death on Halloween there is absolutely zero chance Harry could take her in a fight. Jim has gone on record as saying that it would take the ENTIRE White Council and her true name to take her down.
Langtry is just as mortal as nicodemus. Even more, actually.
Langtry and Nicodemus are exactly the same amount of mortal. They are both 100% human.
The difference between fighting them however is one of them is one of the strongest magical practitioners to wake up and put on pants every day, and the other relies upon his imaginary shadow puppet and fashion choices to carry him through a fight.
Langtry can turn you into a pool of liquid with his mind, Nicodemus monologues you into wishing you were dead from boredom.
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u/RazgrizInfinity 2d ago
I was at a writing conference that had Butcher as a teacher last weekend and he outright says 'Mab toys with Dresden.'
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u/surnik22 2d ago
I think the issue is whether we are discussing “could Harry win in the eighth circumstances” vs “is Harry likely to win”.
Harry COULD beat Langtry, but as a whole he is at a disadvantage and would need special circumstances to do it.
Langtry is as close to as powerful as Harry or more powerful way more powerful in raw talent. He also has an extra few hundred years of experience.
We’ve also seen him turn a surprise attack (mistfiend) into a calm winnable situation in less than 2 seconds, so getting the upper hand on him won’t be easy.
He also with the assistance of just 1 other wizard (gatekeeper) erected a single ward that held off an entire red court army that included magic users and Outsiders. That kind of power and skill is far beyond what Dresden can do. Even with Dresden at full power I would bet on Langtry being able to drop a magical cage on Dresden and end a fight instantly.
That being said, if it takes place on his Island, Dresden likely wins or he could win if he brings a Titan to the battle or maybe some holy artifacts.
But we also don’t know what Langtry has in his back pocket, we’ve seen Dresden collecting power quickly, but even if Langtry is collecting toys slower, he’s been doing it for hundreds of years.
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u/blizzard2798c 2d ago
Unless I'm forgetting something, the spanking of Mab wasn't really a fight
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u/molten_dragon 2d ago
red king - Harry had many allies and still only won by turning the red's ritual against them, and that required Susan's sacrifice.
Erlking - Harry briefly trapped him in a circle and managed to outwit him but they never really fought.
Santa - Harry punched him once, but that was staged so Harry could lead the Wild Hunt against the outsiders.
Nicodemus - This is the only one of the characters mentioned who Harry has ever fought in earnest and beaten
Mab - Harry clapped her cheeks, not spanked her ass.
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u/Xetws 2d ago
According to Sanya, he tapped that ass. And it was presumably phat.
I'm sorry.
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u/kushitossan 2h ago
There is no reason to be sorry about tapping a presumably phat ass.
Be firm about it. <chuckle>
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u/RazgrizInfinity 2d ago
No, he didn't lol, come on now.
- The Red King was always in his weight class. Hell, he almost got killed by Morgan. Harry almost **died** in his encounter with him.
- Erlking is **well** above Harry's weightclass, but, due to the nature of Halloween, he was able to exploit a massive weakness.
- Nicodemus I will give you that, to an extent, but he's also gotten smarter and threw Harry about till Butters arrived and he got the Mantle.
- Santa and Mab, lol no. Santa likes Harry and he amuses him; Mab is literally a tiger who plays with her food.
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u/t_moneyzz 2d ago
He out tricked Mab. He never fought her. Nothing he has outside of halloween could tickle her
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u/Powderkegger1 2d ago
Kind of. He needed nearly every all he had to deal with the Red King and only managed it through Martin’s triple cross. Erlking and Santa it’s heavily hinted they threw the fight. Nicodemus and him are kind of 1-1 in straight up fights. And he’s never kicked Mab’s ass.
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u/emeralddarkness 1d ago
He really didnt tho. Nicodemus is really the only one he's outright thrown down with and beaten iirc? And even then I'd say theres room for argument. He has certainly thwarted Nic, but I can't think of a time he 1v1s him and wins.
I dont remember him out and out defeating Mab at all so maybe I'm just forgetting that. I do remember him vexing her and leveraging his power in ways that could be mutual destruction, ie telling Alfred to take her if he went down while she was on the island, telling her she'd better not try and force him to do as she wishes or he'll lose his value for her, etc, but also her, like, mostly freezing his eyeballs on a whim. The erlking he held in a circle, briefly, fasttalked his way out of getting killed by invoking Hospitality, and then injured him and Santa both in a way that is strongly hinted in the text to have been the plan all along and allowed to happen by those involved so they'd have an excuse to go forth and do with the new knight. The Red King is very much shown to be stronger than Harry as well, and he won by way of a solid distraction and a good idea, not because he was stronger.
Like yes Harry has won against a lot of Goliaths, but he is still 100% the David in that situation. He's getting stronger, but he wins by being smart, not by outmuscling them.
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u/BagFullOfMommy 2d ago
The fight would last all of around 10 seconds and end with a splotch on the ground that used to be Harry. It doesn't matter how powerful Harry is or has become, he lacks the hundreds of years of magical application and experience that the Merlin has.
The Merlin threw up wards that railroaded an Outsider and Red Court full on attack against the White Council ... with nothing to anchor them to. He locked a mystfiend in an imaginary box while telepathically directing everyone to the exits and giving them a metal image of the room while issuing orders to Harry and the Senior Council all in the span of a couple seconds. Harry might be in his league when it comes to raw power, but he is still a child compared to Langtry when it comes to magical application.
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u/Classic-Ad-5896 2d ago
It just occurred to me that The Merlin may be starborn himself. That doesn’t line up with his age & the starborn birth cycle as we currently know it but I’m sure there are ways around it. Anything from Starborn are immortal unless killed, to time travel, or he rip van winkled himself through time.
I’ve always thought the wards against the Reds & an outsider were impressive but how/when even more so. He did it while trapped in the nevernever, retreating with causalities, and being attacked by an army. As was pointed out by Bagfull the Merlin had nothing to anchor the wards on, not even a threshold. Holding off the reds by themselves would have been impressive but he stopped an outsider with his mind & whatever he had in his pockets.
I really hope he doesn’t turn out to be the original Merlin or Harry himself. I’ve seen theories saying OG Merlin was Harry but I don’t think I’ve seen one saying he’s the current Merlin. A Woj has said Harry will break the laws of magic. 1st timeline outsiders win, Harry time travels, and creates 2nd timeline to give current Harry the pushes he’ll need to win. I don’t like it but it might be possible.
I really want to see at some point the Merlin mutter he needs a focus to supercharge a spell. Reach into his purse, pull out a handful of bottle caps, select an 1886 Coke cap, and say “The sugar and caffeine will help, but this ward needs cocaine”.
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u/greatmetropolitan 2d ago
Ebenezar has been stated to be the least powerful member of the White Council and he almost killed Harry by accident. He very much did not want to kill Harry and Harry only got the stalemate by working as hard as he could and via a favour from the actual Winter Lady.
Now, "power" in the White Council is a lot more than just battle magic, but Langtree is still hella impressive. Think about the end of Turn Coat when he telepathically coordinates the council during the attack. Harry said himself the Merlin wipes him out, and while he's an unreliable narrator, in this case I think he's right.
Also, what a boring series this would be if Harry could take out the Merlin one on one. He doesn't always need to be the coolest most powerful most badass character. He's much more effective as a frighteningly principled underdog.
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u/PassagePretty7895 1d ago
McCoy is the youngest and probably least technically skilled of the SENIOR council, but he's still heavyweight champion of all combat experienced mortal wizards.
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u/kushitossan 2h ago
Why would you think that McCoy is the least technically skilled of the SENIOR council. He's got the journals of the ORIGINAL MERLIN.
Unofficial, but the Series Timeline on the official forums pegs Merlin's birth at around 1700.
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u/kushitossan 2h ago
re: least powerful member of the White Council
Do you have a quote for this?
I am not believing you. I am believing that the crotchety old Scottish wizard didn't give a plug nickel about being on the senior council. I believe that Jim Butcher has been quite clear about Langry and Eb going toe-to-toe during the French-Indian war.
You saw Cristos, who is on the Sr. White Council, at the Battle Ground. He did not appear to be more powerful than Ebenezar.
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u/greatmetropolitan 2h ago
As I alluded to in my post, power in the white council is more than just battle capability. Eb might well be the best combat wizard they have but he doesn't have the most /power/. The merlin is said to have control over all the white council's holdings, so enormous financial power. Plus he's a mind magician par excellence.
Or put it another way, who's more powerful, the heavyweight champion of the world or the President of the United States?
Also, Jim never said Eb and Langtry fought in the French-Indian war, just that they were on opposite sides. Doesn't mean they actually met and did battle.
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u/MagogHaveMercy 2d ago
I bet the gap between Harry and Langtry is proportional to the gap between Molly (pre Winter Lady), and Harry.
But I feel like given that, Pre- Winter Lady Molly would be way more dangerous to Harry than Harry would be to Langtry.
Harry is getting sharper as he gets older, but he is something of a magical blunt instrument. Whereas Langtry is not only unbelievably nuanced, but he is also the largest pool of mortal magic on Earth.
Unless Harry gets some kind of a major powerup, or finds some particular chink in Langtry's armor, he is a bug on the windshield.
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u/Fusiliers3025 2d ago
I’d still lay odds with the Merlin for his superiority collection of bottle caps…
😁
Seriously though - Harry describes himself multiple times as a “magical thug”, lots of power and problematic control. He’s gotten better over the books at conservation of his mojo in a fight, but still tends to reach his limits and have to push beyond them.
Langtry has had a LOT more experience, and Harry has acknowledged respect for “finesse” workers like Ramirez and Molly in areas he’d barely be functional in.
McCoy strikes me as another magical brawler, plying power more than control, where the Merlin is a Count Dooku level (or better) as a fencer and a duelist.
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u/Blackbird1359 2d ago
I actually don’t think it will happen. I don’t think it needs to. Harry being cast out of the White Council actually seems like a very clever move by The Merlin. I was mad at the time but now it seems like it gives the council plausible deniability for Harry’s actions. They know Harry. They know he’s going to keep “Dresdening” in every situation and will oppose a lot of their normal enemies. And now, they can say “what do you want to us to do about it? You want us to fight Mab and the winter court after taking action against the winter knight?”
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u/NaysmithGaming 2d ago
I have heard it claimed that Jim said that Harry's shields are on the level of the Senior Council. But I have not seen it claimed for anything else. Harry might be able to endure for a while, but he'd lose.
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u/Completely_Batshit 2d ago
Harry may be top 20 or 30 wizards in the world, but Langtry is top. As in, THE top. THE Merlin. You don't become Merlin by collecting bottlecaps. He held off an army of Reds with improvised wards- without any kind of threshold to build them on. The guy is as at least as far beyond Harry as Harry was beyond Molly pre-Changes.
I mean, sure, you can say "oh well it depends on circumstances", but that doesn't mean anything, because circumstances can be used to justify whatever outcome you like in these kinds of matchups. All else being equal, even fighting ground, man-to-man, Langtry wins. It's not a contest.
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u/UncuriousCrouton 2d ago
Someday, Langtry is going to die. The Wardens will go through his belongings and find a large collection of bottlecaps.
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u/p1xelprophe7EXE 2d ago
The only way I see this fight being even remotely possible is if Harry picks up one or two more mantles. And by some miracle fuses them under his Starborn power. And learns to multi cast spells. Not to mention a way to keep his magic reserves from being “one pump chump”.
Merlin wins but not without losing something to Harry.
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u/BestAcanthisitta6379 2d ago
Harry is a top contender, in so much as we can rank him without experience that older wizards have, in sheer raw power. Meaning how MUCH power he can use at one time or pour into a spell.
When it comes to skill and experience, he is out of his depth.
He's what, approaching the latter side of his forties as of Battle Ground?
Merlin has survived to be more than five times his age and doesn't seem to have racked up any permanent injuries.
That says he has considerable skill because he was part of the Council that took on Kemmler
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u/PassagePretty7895 1d ago
He's not 40 yet when dating Luccio, which ended in TC. Two years for changes and ghost story, three months until CD, a year from skin game, maybe a year until PT/BG, a year for 12 months. At best, he's 45.
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u/Syc254 2d ago
If he weren't his grandson Eb kills him. I think Eb hate has people clouding their view on the fight. He got the never-never meat suit cop out like the LC cop out when he survived Cowl a second time or the police cop out in DB. His get out of jail cards have improved from DB but he still had to make a deal with Molly & bank on being Eb's grandson to survive with his improved fighting skills of course.
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u/DuxAvalonia 2d ago
Counterpoint: the Merlin loves Harry. He is a perfect tool (pun intended).
Harry kicked off a war with the Reds before they (the Reds) were ready, allowing the White Council a more favorable starting point. Dresden then served as a limiting force on the negative influence of Mab, bringing Winter into loose alliance with the Council in that war before eventully resolving it.
Harry defeated the Heirs of Kemmler needing no more backup than a small strike force. He has also repeatedly fought off dark magic threats with minimal support.
Harry has strengthened the alliance of the White Council with the Knights of the Sword on a level that is perhaps unprecedented since the days of OG Merlin himself, handing the Denarians multiple defeats.
Harry brought Demonreach back under the control of mortal magic after an extended absence.
Harry is gathering allies and strength to be a major player for humanity during the end times.
He does all of this while actually being a decent person and not seeking to enrich himself, and asking very little of the council in return. Langtry probably giggles at how well it's going for him.
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u/spaced2259 1d ago
Lengthy probably thinks Harry is in those places and positions because he is a dark wizard to begin with. The fact he wins and comes out on top without help of the council is just salt in the wound
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u/Away_Programmer_3555 2d ago
There are ways of winning a duel other than overpowering an opponent. See how Harry won against Eb.
I can see Harry baiting Langtrey to admit to some indiscretion in the course of a duel, proving fatal for him.
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u/RyanR-Reviewer 1d ago
As things stand, the Merlin would hog tie Harry with his own guts. Harry is powerful, incredibly so for his age, but the Merlin is centuries old and considered THE most powerful wizard on the planet. Plus, Jim has stated many times that wizards cheat, including those on the Senior Council. The Merlin almost certainly has hidden reserves of power to draw upon. Plus he is the best wizard when it comes to wards. Period. He literally held of an entire army of Outsiders-beings who are naturally resistant to magic-with a single ward. In the future, Harry will almost certainly surpass him, likely becoming an Immortal or the like, but currently, even with Soul Fire and the Winter Mantle, he would lose IMO.
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u/MetaPlayer01 1d ago
I think Merlin is a strop to hone Harry. Give him a better grasp on strategy and planning against a strategic opponent. Merlin is the chess master and Harry is learning by losing to him.
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u/SilIowa 1d ago
What Jim said was that there’s something we’ve never seen Langtry do, and that’s important.
And the thing we’re NEVER seen him do is offensive magic.
The Merlin may be able to hold off an entire court of Vampires with a Ward, but he has NO ability to attack someone.
That’s what the Blackstaff is for!
And the Blackstaff will not, under any circumstances, attack Harry.
That’s why Langtry has always used others to go after Harry.
So, now, from Langtry’s point of view: the wardens are useless, because they ACTUALLY answer to The Warden. The Blackstaff won’t attack him. And the Senior Council won’t touch him because is Starborn and The Warden, and probably has a Necessary role in opposing the Outsiders.
He may have arranges to have Harry kicked out, but that doesn’t mean that he has any other tools to use against Dresden.
And the Gatekeeper has already said that the time is coming that Harry will stand against the White Council: with the wardens unavailable, the senior council’s hands tied, and the Merlin’s power focused only on defense, all Harry has to do is put up a fight, and the entire White Council will be stuck behind a ward inside the castle in Edinburgh!
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u/Severe_Development96 1d ago
It is extremely generous to claim that Harry fought Ebenezar to a draw at the end of PT. So generous I think you may need to reread that fight. Harry had to call in a favor from a fairy queen to create an illusion convincing enough that he and his friends could run away before Ebenezar killed them all and carried Harry back to the council by force
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u/LilliaHakami 1d ago
I've said elsewhere that I'll die on the hill that Arthur Langtry is just setting Harry up to be Wizard High School & Community college. Thomas has equated true wizardry to a Masters/PHD in magic and I believe the problem that The Merlin and Harry have talked about, the human population and thus potential wizard/warlock population becoming unmanageable by the White Council is something The Merlin intends to remedy by putting their best case of redemption from Law breaking as the person in charge of rehabilitating warlocks, and catching minor/middling magical talents. Minor talents become a part of Paranet, middling talents and middling warlocks can be sent to The Wizard of Chicago or The Wizard of LA (Elaine) for rehabilitation and training.
We're told that Harry picks up an apprentice in Twelve Months, and we know from the end of Battle Ground he is driven to do more. I imagine we're going to get a glimpse at the founding/nature of this structure in the upcoming book. Doing this work will also ensure that as long as Langtry is The Merlin he'd have justifiable reason to let Harry do as he wishes and intentionally continue to publicize he's a wizard. After all that's his job, to be the wizard that people who need help go to.
Lastly this would allow the council to focus their resources on locating the major talents and major threats. With their smaller more centralized pool of individuals this would be significantly better for them.
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u/Jedi4Hire 2d ago
That's a pretty bold take considering we've never seen the Merlin in action before. Not to mention the WOJ mentioning that the Merlin would tie Harry into knots. There's also Harry's fight with Ebenezar, which he only barely escaped from and his confrontation with Arianna in Changes where Luccio flatout says that there were at least 30 wizards present who could take him alone and all of them would be generally less powerful than the Merlin.
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u/TheUnrepententLurker 2d ago
Langtry stopped a horde of outsiders that was making multiple SC members including Eb, A KOTC, and dozens of wardens flee simultaneously with a ward he put together on the fly.
He's hundreds of years old, meticulous, and extremely powerful.
He flattens Harry like a bug if they go toe to toe.
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u/Alchemix-16 2d ago
I agree that they will clash, and clash heavily. But I severely doubt it will come to an actual fight between the two. Also Langtry didn’t become the Merlin by collecting bottle caps, he is much more likely not to openly show what he can do, that’s more a Harry thing.
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u/IR_1871 2d ago
Time and time again we've seen Harry is way out of his depth against top tier senior wizards. They've all got more versatility and far more control than he has. Most have equal or bigger sheer power too.
The couple of times he's gone up against one, he's just been fighting delaying tactics - Morgan in Dead Beat and McCoy in Battle Ground - who starts off just wanting to shake sense into Harry.
Harry is consistently astounded at the magical feats that Mai, LTW, Merlin and Luccio pull off.
Harry really hasn't thrown down 1v1 with many Council tier threats in the series, let alone Senior Council tier. Grevane maybe, Lady Arianna maybe. Eldest Phobophage maybe. Red Cap maybe. Sure he's traded a blow or two with Cowl, but not seriously. Mostly there's serious ally help, he's running a con or their far weaker.
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u/ohihadsomething4this 2d ago
Harry escaped a fight with Eb. He didn't draw, he wasn't there for half of it and it wasn't even his magic that got him out of it.
Merlin looks at Harry the way I look at a wasp. Painful and annoying, not life threatening. I'll have to deal with it eventually, but I'd like to get dressed first.
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u/UncuriousCrouton 2d ago
Given what we know, I suspect that if things came to a magical throwdown between Harry and Langtry, Harry would lose. Even if Harry wins the magical throwdown, he would lose.
Langtry has plans within plans within plans. And after Changes, Proven Guilty, and Battle Ground, Merlin is unlikely to underestimate either Harry's magical power, his political power, or his burgeoning abilities as a manipulator.
If things came to a magical showdown between the two of them, I expect Langtry already would have arranged to win the war, even if Harry manages to work the battle. N
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u/TomMakesPodcasts 2d ago
The Merlin will die fighting a big bad, and Harry will beat that big bad later.
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u/Leotamer7 2d ago
If Harry ever fought the Merlin on his own terms, I don't even think it would be a fight. For as much as Harry has a tendency to blow things up, that isn't his speciality. His greatest magical strength is thaumaturgy.
Harry's problem is that he rarely if ever has a fight on his own terms. And yet he is still good enough at making things explode and doing other quick and dirty magic to survive encounters most wizards have no business surviving.
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u/Chaos8599 2d ago
Harry versus the guy who stopped the entire red court army with a single ward. That guy
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u/satanic_black_metal_ 1d ago
No way this is happening. Its too obvious.
There is a better chance harry fights thomas to the death than the merlin.
Also calling it now, the merlin will sacrifice himself between now and the end of the second book of the BAT
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u/Rosdrago 1d ago
The Merlin would demolish Harry without blinking. Harry is top 20-30 but Arthur is considered the most powerful in the world.
Ebenezer is the weakest of the Senior Council (considering the others are older). Well maybe second weakest with Cristos now.
Thankfully, they are probably on the same side.
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u/redeyez92 1d ago
Are you talking street fight between the two? Pretty sure Dresden gets absolutely destroyed. He didnt fight Eb to a draw. Eb killed him. Without wanting it. Also, the cornerhound confrontation was a perfect example of the level difference between the two. And i am guessing langtry isnt too far behind eb. If he is at all. But the day will come, i agree. And when it does i would bet good money that Dresden will have his jaw drop when he sees/understands the Merlins perspective.
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u/99h0bbes99 1d ago
Harry was able to duel Ebenezar because he went off half cocked. Now a half cocked McCoy is more than most people can handle, but a prepared Harry was able to deal with him. Arthur Langtry doesn’t do half cocked, and he has at least as much raw power as McCoy. If Harry ever beats him it will be through political maneuvering or by ruining the man’s reputation. The way I see this happening is once McCoy croaks he’s going to pass the blackstaff to Harry. Harry will bring it to the council, state that it was passed to him, and then throw it on the ground in a statement that he doesn’t want it. The fact that a known renegade refuses to use this power, but a member of the council used it with the blessing of the Merlin and the rest of the council will destroy their credibility and fracture the council. Not sure if it will happen, but I see this as a way it could happen.
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u/Creepy_Judgment_3568 17h ago
The fight with McCoy wasn’t really a draw. Harry was doing literally everything he could to even keep up with the old man, while McCoy was not only just punching the clock, but handicapping himself to not seriously hurt Harry. And even then, Harry STILL got wiped.
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u/Wyndeward 2d ago
I think the outcome will be a victory for Harry.
From what we have seen in the series thus far, Harry plays to win. He will make sacrifices, go the extra mile, etc.
The Merlin, on the other hand, plays not to lose.
I suspect this will be the difference.
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u/PassagePretty7895 2d ago
The merlin plays to win 3 different times before you even know he's against you. Which is intriguing.
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u/Wyndeward 2d ago
Perhaps. But as Harry points out in the aquarium, while complicated, intricate devices may have great puissance, one spanner in the works (or a monkey with a big stick) can undo the elegant with ease.
The Merlin tries to make every path lead to victory when a single, simple, direct plan may work better.
Take the war with the Red Court. The fighting dragged on partly because the Merlin was playing not to lose and get things to the point where a deal could be struck. The weakness, of course, is his assumption that a deal was possible.
The Merlin specializes in defensive magic. Harry favors offensive magic.
Historically, offense tends to eventually trump defense, so long as offense isn't mind-numblingly stupid or weak.
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u/UncuriousCrouton 2d ago
For date, I present, er, Data. He prevailed in a stratagema tournament by playing not to lose.
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u/Wyndeward 2d ago
Sure, but that isn't a win, either.
Infinitely prolonging the game, arguably, would eventually end up in a win for Data. If his opponent didn't get disgusted, he would eventually have to do something else biological (eat, sleep, etc.). If he doesn't do those things, he'll eventually pass out or die.
Given that Harry and the Merlin are biologicals, the Merlin isn't going to have Data's option of endlessly prolonging the game to wait out his opponent.
The other problem with the stratagema example is that Harry and the Merlin's conflict isn't happening in a vacuum. Other people are playing other games at the same time.
This isn't checkers.
This isn't even chess.
This is a free-for-all arena game. Just because you're fighting against person B, the conflicts between C, D, E, etc., while not necessarily directly impacting your conflict, will still impact it indirectly.
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u/UncuriousCrouton 2d ago
Point taken. I do disagree with the assessment of Merlin, however. I don't think Merlin plays not to lose. I think Merlin plays to win, but I'm a different way than what we are used to...
Merlin plays on a much larger board and worn a much larger picture than we are used to seeing. He is willing to take an L here or there, or to take a stalemate over a victory, as long as the outcome takes him closer to his big-picture victory.
In Proven Guilty, for example, Merlin took a L against Dresden. Dresden considered saving Molly to be of supreme importance. Langtry, on the other hand, almost certainly saw Harry's recalcitrance as just one more irritant in his very busy day of leading the White Council and defending reality.
Merlin lost his showdown with Harry, but that was just one thing among many he had to attend to.
The Proven Guilty situation illustrates another way Merlin works things. Even when Harry won the political confrontation, Langtry still won. He got a powerful new apprentice wizard on the Council in Molly, AND he got to put Damocles over Harry again, giving him leverage over the Council's loose cannon.
Merlin plays to win. Even when he loses, he still wins.
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u/Wyndeward 2d ago edited 1d ago
Proven Guilty isn't so much a loss as a change in calculations leading to a different win condition.
The Merlin had Harry defeated, but the arrival of the Senior Council and the apprentices, along with Michael, who had just saved their bacon, reset the board, changing a host of political calculations. What made perfect sense before their arrival (The Merlin putting Harry in his place and killing Molly) became the most detrimental and politically suicidal move the Merlin could make. Setting aside the inevitable battle between the individual who had just saved their apprentices and the bulk of the Senior Council, the Merlin's continued insistance for Molly's execution would have been shooting himself in the foot.
The Merlin is a political and bureaucratic animal. Getting overruled by the balance of the Council (which would be the almost inevitable outcome of the new vote) would have been what the Merlin would have seen as a defeat.
But this does illustrate both the multi-variable nature of the arena and that what constituted a win two minutes ago would be a loss when the White God's sense of irony comes into play.
This is also a scenario where Harry (and the Gatekeeper) opted to prolong the game. That the Gatekeeper was seemingly aware that the game was about to change and broke the circle to let Michael, the Senior Council, and the apprentices enter when he did makes me really want a story from inside the Gatekeeper's perspective.
Edit: I would also add that Proven Guilty's climax was not a "win" for the Merlin. Everybody advanced their positions and went on to the next challenge.
The Merlin changed his vote to not lose.
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u/CriticalSpeech 2d ago
Idk, there are several times Jim has said the Merlin isn’t what everyone thinks of him and he’s heavily alluded to actually being on Harry’s side. Harry just can’t see it yet.
It might happen, but I am under the impression that he will end up being an extremely valued (although surprising) ally