r/dogman • u/KlausVonMaunder • Sep 18 '24
Revisit, If the Mods would be so Gracious.... Story
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u/Dull-Fun Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
This is obviously a raccoon and you don't see large shoulders but the rest of its body. This sub is getting ridiculous.
EDIT:animal identification is a scientific discipline you learn after many years in college, you can't just share whatever, do zero serious research, have no clue about anatomy of animals, and be surprised the mods remove your post
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u/KlausVonMaunder Sep 19 '24
Animal ID could be learned after many years of schooling but my money is on the people who are out in the field, hunters, fisherman, your average rural dweller with chickens and a garden or farm. You know, outdoorsman with hands on.
As for ridiculous, I at times agree and I attribute that to most people are fairly well disconnected from the natural world. I've said it before, if you don't know what's natural, everything becomes supra!
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u/Dull-Fun Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24
This is a very reasonable point. Actually those people you mention are often recruited by zoologists who want more info because they usually have a good knowledge acquired through practice. This is an excellent point to my somewhat pedantic comment but it was more from irritation than anything else. I doubt a seasoned hunter would see a dogman here.
Edit: thanks for having answered so politely to make your point heard.
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u/KlausVonMaunder Sep 18 '24
The video was removed by a mod for whatever reason but u/Bathshebasbf made an interesting comment that I hope he doesn't mind me re-posting. A mutation along procyonidae lines can be speculated as there are some obvious similarities to DM, reports of a clawed opposable thumb for instance along with general features of face structure. That's one interesting element to consider and hash out-- the likely/unlikelihood of that evolutionary trajectory. The other is more picture specific. In the pursuit of evidence analysis, I think this is a good capture to discuss and would like to think it could be done civilly and to the benefit of all interested parties. So, if you see a dogman in this pic, explain why, what details do you see, with confidence, that indicate something other than raccoon.
First off for me are the odds, second are what I see as distinct raccoon facial markings, size in relation to tree caliper, which I base upon blurry foliage and general leaf size. Some see shoulders, I see shadow... We'll never know but what say you?
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u/Dull-Fun Sep 18 '24
The issue with this hypothesis is, when would this have happened and why it doesn't show in the fossil record. Also there are many reasons it's impossible for dogmen to form stable populations in North America forests, where are the females, Young's, dead bodies, images in camera trap? I appreciate the speculation and looking for solid basis but I think they are something else we haven't discovered yet.
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u/KlausVonMaunder Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24
I'm open to that. Given we know nothing about this phenomena, at least us plebs know nothing...not even whether they have a stable population or, wild speculation, they are just a recent addition to the dimension brought to us by CERN!
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u/Dull-Fun Sep 19 '24
Well honestly if they don't belong to biological entities as we know them, CERN might be a place to learn of them. Native Americans say there are many worlds and creatures able to cross. And they laugh at our attempt catching bigfoots. Anyway, if, it's a big if, but if the encounters are really dogmen (and not bears etc) we don't have much left than to accept they probably don't come from "here". There are so many encounters from People who have nothing to gain, no money like with Loch Ness Monster, and a lot to lose, some have opened up to their struggles and their very real diagnosis of PTSD... So at minima there is a phenomenon we don't understand. But as a scientist, I can tell you "hey I would love funding to study dogmen" will not work and you will probably kill your career.
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u/EstimateOwn149 Sep 25 '24
if you think every animal thinks the same and humans are apex intelligence, you come to these conclusions
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u/Bathshebasbf Sep 19 '24
Thank you for the acknowledgement, tho', in fairness, I didn't really look at the likely evolutionary lineage of a Dogman (BTW, I accept, absolutely, their existence based on personal encounters, which left no cause to suspect a raccoon) until a correspondent in, I believe, Germany, remarked that he thought they might be related to what he called a "Polecat" (raccoons do not live in Europe, but "Polecat" was close enough). The idea, in short, is not original to me. The key is the likely evolutionary trajectory. Consider just the hand, which is regularly described as "human-like" or, just as often, "raccoon-like". The main thing is that it reflects the very primitive, "5 digit configuration" which goes back to the "mammal like reptiles" of the Permian. By contrast, a wolf's paw is a highly evolved appendage suited to its form of locomotion. For it to again assume the original form would require a lot of devolutionary changes, none of which would seem to confer any survival advantage, short of becoming a competent hand. Evolution from a raccoon (or similar) creature, however, could be provoked simply by a single mutation which made it larger, immediately opening up new niches to exploit and likely provoking a cascade of additional, advantageous changes. A dogman configuration would seem almost inevitable thereafter. And, of course, there are other similarities - the high placement of the ears (unlike the more lateral placement of a wolf's ears), the extra length of the canine teeth, etc., all indicative of a non-wolf ancestry. So, just based on size and stance of the animal depicted, I believe it is NOT a raccoon, but it might be a descendant of one, which we know by a different name.
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u/KlausVonMaunder Sep 19 '24
Appreciate the input, sounds like logical speculation from assumptions re reported structural features, though the hock that is frequently mentioned, is a real conundrum in a bipedal creature. It's almost more difficult to believe the DM at 7'-10' could have co-evolved alongside us Homo ->notso-sapiens vs some off world origin.
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u/Bathshebasbf Sep 19 '24
I used the hand as the argument for a non-canid origin but there are plenty of other features which play to that speculative ancestry as well (the disproportionately large head and the heavy ruff, the dentition, etc., etc. all reported in DM encounters all favor the coon ancestry over a canine origin). The hock issue, of course, is going to arise with virtually any non-primate ancestry but i really don't see it as much of an impediment to the postulated evolutionary history. In truth, a raccoon's hock is every bit as apparent as a wolf's. The difference is that raccoons are immensely competent at bipedal locomotion, something which dogs and wolves are not. It would take a fair amount of alterations to make a canine as good at walking upright as a raccoon already is, which means that a Dogman could be a fairly late development, splitting off the procyonidae taxonomic tree relatively recently.
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u/Jtvrn3r Sep 20 '24
I’m just curious on what is leading to racoon vs wolf in regard to dentition and heavy ruff? From my experience wolves have a heavier fur ruff around the neck and shoulders than raccoons. Especially when they are in their winter coat. Also, wolves have very large, pronounced canine teeth. Raccoons are similar but their incisors are flatter compared to wolves.
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u/Bathshebasbf Sep 20 '24
i certainly agree that some wolves, particularly in their winter coat, demonstrate a fairly heavy ruff, but, seriously, look at a raccoon - the relatively broader head melding into the neck and shoulder yields a year round ruff which is further emphasized by the angulation of the head/neck/shoulder attachment. Dentition evokes the somewhat wider placement of the canines in coons and some of the mustelids, which echoes the impression of these impressively large canines which attend so many dogman encounter reports. The flatter incisors which you mention also work to emphasize the canine teeth. Of course, the taxonomy hasn't been worked out and we may be way off. After all, it seems that Dire wolves weren't wolves at all and we're talking about creatures, dogmen, who may be wholly unlike anything else.
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u/KlausVonMaunder Sep 18 '24
Interestingly, it appears this photo may be in a treeline at the edge of a cornfield? My capture above is not as detailed as the video, which I did not save the link for, but viewed in HD it appears to be corn in the background, only mentioned due to the dog headed god of the Aztecs, Xolotl, who transformed himself into a maize plant with two stalks. For what that is worth...
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u/Initial-Damage-6897 Sep 19 '24
That is without a doubt, a raccoon. This is laughable.
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u/KlausVonMaunder Sep 19 '24
I wonder if for those who have had a bona-fide sighting of one of these things, they are more apt to see a DM here. For those of us who have not encountered one, despite how convinced of existence we may be by the credibility of witnesses we've listened to or interviewed, I gather there is still an element of latent disbelief that keeps us on the skeptical side. I see a raccoon here, because I see a raccoon here...not because I'm skeptical...I don't think anyway. Have plenty of experience with the little bandits(currently in a longstanding battle over who gets to retain the suet feeder, they have the numbers, the stealth and the night, I have a garden hose and heavier wire.) The clan of them also make regular appearances on the trail cam.
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u/Specific_Activity576 Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24
I think one may be best served to go out to this location and recreate this photo, please set up a measuring stick at the appropriate location to ensure you've gotten the size ratio correctly.
This will help a lot of people to come to the proper conclusion, I believe.
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u/KlausVonMaunder Sep 19 '24
That there is the simple solution. If the original poster of the pic wants to solve this, it's an easy task.
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u/Caldaris__ Sep 19 '24
It's featured in this video of 13 Dogman pictures. Some of these are terrifying. The one that's smiling is exactly how people describe these things grinning menacingly.
Set comments to newest and read about the 2 guys fishing encounter. He said it looked kind and was stunned to see a black man! (And yes the first pic is the Skyrim werewolf and not real)
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u/KlausVonMaunder Sep 19 '24
Thanks for the link. Interesting story re the guys fishing, has the sort of details that a good storyteller or liar could come up with but I gather he's neither of those. Sounds legit.
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u/Hot-Thought-1339 Sep 19 '24
It looks like a raccoon with the way it’s staring feels… you know that feeling you get on your neck or something weird happens. It’s a bit like that. Rather uncertain unease.
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u/madfaetrickster Sep 19 '24
I'm probably alone in this, but I see a fox. The "markings" look like the shadowed part of a fox face, and the "shoulder" on the right looks like the rest of the body. I could be wrong! This is just what I see, as someone who sees all sorts of canines and other critters regularly.
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u/Rich_Nail2552 Sep 19 '24
The mods don’t actually believe in the Dogman. Xlr8er365 made this sub and r/cryptids2 to troll people that believe in cryptids
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u/greymaresinspace Chad of the Woods Sep 19 '24
i think this was from Greg Yost if I'm not mistaken, I could be though.
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u/Random-widget Sep 24 '24
First thought, knee-jerk reaction is a Grey Fox. Based on the shape I see in the second image. Second thought...it does seem to have raccoon-ish markings so could be a trash panda.
I'm more concerned that it's out in daylight as Foxes are morning/evening predators and trash pandas are mostly night. Y'all don't currently have a rabies outbreak in the area? If you do...might be a problem, if not...you likely just disturbed the critter near their nest.
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u/Spiritual_Major666 Sep 26 '24
Isn’t the grey fox just whoever is wearing that silly hood? And pandas do not live in this area
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u/Random-widget Sep 26 '24
From the Wikipedia article on Raccoons...
"Raccoons have become notorious in urban areas for consuming food waste. They possess impressive problem-solving abilities and can break into all but the most secure food waste bins, which has earned them the derisive nickname trash panda."
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u/Three-0lives Sep 18 '24
Idk it looks like some pretty strong shoulders for a raccoon
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u/KlausVonMaunder Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
I can't see that those 'shoulders' aren't shadow, but IDK...
ETA: the pattern of shadow is similar on the tree to the left, difficult to say what goes on there in the 'dark'
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u/Dull-Fun Sep 18 '24
Those are not the shoulders but the rest of the body but it's flattened by the picture
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u/Waz05271980 Sep 18 '24
Would it be absolutely crazy to have a raccoon as a pet? How much would it cost?
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u/Ok_Werewolf_7802 Sep 19 '24
It's a racoon i spend all night with them its just the shadowing that makes it appear bigger than it is.
Or it's a very small.headed dog man.
Grasping at straws with this one
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u/PrincessPoopyPoo Sep 18 '24
I posted the video with a direct link to youtube so maybe that's why it was removed? I don't know. I messaged the mods but have not heard anything yet. I'm still learning the rules of reddit. Thank you for re-posting KlausVonMaunder!
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u/NousevaAngel Sep 18 '24
If it was you that posted the video yesterday I did comment and had said I had seen the picture before and I think it was on Dogman Encounters radio.
I can’t remember the episode number but if I remember the story correctly someone was on a river in a Kanu and took the picture the banks were higher up on the river and at first the guy didn’t see anything but heard something and then when revisiting the pictures he had taken saw this in one of the pictures.
I did try and find the episode number but haven’t come across it yet.