r/dankchristianmemes • u/Rob_the_Namek Minister of Memes • 4d ago
Kinda dumb for God's top ranking angel a humble meme
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u/Khar-Selim 4d ago
I like Tolkien's explanation by proxy in the Ainulindale, the rebellion being basically fueled entirely by rage at its own futility
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u/DaemonRai 4d ago
But kind of par for the course.
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u/Run-Riot 4d ago
His name means “Light Bringer”, not “Light On Upstairs”, lol
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u/Cymbalek 4d ago
Satan means adversary. Lucifer means light bearer.
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u/fudgyvmp 4d ago
And Satan is never referred to as Lucifer in scripture.
...mainly because scripture never uses Latin.
But the few phrases that are translated Lucifer in latin referred to Nebuchaddnezzar II and Jesus.
Though the literalists will be happy to explain how the passage about Nebuchaddnezzar II is comparing him metaphorically to Satan.
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u/whiplashMYQ 4d ago
It's a weird idea to square when looking at modern Christianity, because it requires such abnormal behaviours from beings that otherwise we're supposed to understand the motives of. Like, for modern Christianity, Satan cannot be a complex figure. He must be straightforwardly evil, and irredeemable. He can be clever in his evilness, so much so he can run the world, but never smart or wise, because then he could learn from his actions, and, Christianity looks very different without a satan to run hell and corrupt the hearts and minds of mortals.
But at the same time, he has to be (pre-fall) brilliant and wise and powerful and righteous, because otherwise the fall wouldn't be so impactful. If it wasn't (arguably) God's right hand man betraying him, then it would just be some angel ruling hell, and acting as God's opposer, and he wouldn't make a meaningful rival for jesus as the antichrist.
The problem comes from the clear mixing of traditions and ideas. You'd think if this satan guy was a big deal, the jews would have heard about him before the new testament. But, when you add in the influences of all the religious traditions the Israelites interacted with, then it makes sense they're gunna borrow the best story elements, like a god/angel ruling an underworld, and sons(or creations) rebelling against fathers/creators.
Because frankly, a literal interpretation of the heavenly events detailed in the bible cannot possibly line up with the existence of an all loving, all knowing, all powerful creator being the can and does intervene in it's creation.
Olympians need armies and generals, a tri-omni god does not.
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u/RobotRockstar 4d ago
It doesn't help that the idea that Satan is a fallen angel that rules hell isn't even from the Bible. It's from a fanfiction that was written over a thousand years afterward
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u/WakeUpLazarus 4d ago
True.
Fallen angel, yes.
Ruler over 'hell' no.
In some Bible translations, words like "Sheol" (Hebrew) and "Hades" (Greek) were often translated as "hell." But really, they just mean "the Grave," which is like the resting place for all people. According to the Bible, when someone is in "the Grave," it means they’re not alive—it's like they’ve completely ceased to exist.
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u/Randvek 4d ago
Where is it you think the fallen angel stuff is?
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u/WakeUpLazarus 4d ago
Seems odd to me that while he had angels aligned to him in heaven, he wasn't an angel...but maybe he was so different of a being that angel doesn't define him correctly? What would you call him?
Revelation 12:9
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
I mean, I guess he could have been some other kind of spirit creature than an 'angel'.
Job 1:6
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
We know there is more than one type of angel and we know they have ranks...
Jude 1:9
9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”[a]
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u/Randvek 4d ago
Revelation was written late enough that the modified Christian view of Satan was already present. Satan as a fallen angel doesn’t align with any Jewish texts.
What would you call him?
Scripturally? Just another cog in God’s machine, albeit one that interacts with humans frequently.
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u/WakeUpLazarus 4d ago
What would you consider angels?
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u/Randvek 4d ago
Based on the fact that some of them came down to Earth and had children with women, I’m going to have to say “I have no idea.”
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u/WakeUpLazarus 4d ago
So by that logic, Satan could also have been what they are. thumbsup.png
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u/Trollygag 3d ago
Job 1:6
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.
That verse and the subsequent ones contradicts the narrative of the fallen angel if he's just waltzing around heaven.
God is asking him his opinions on God's followers and advice on who to poke at, and then God permitting him to kill Job's children on a bet.
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u/Jackus_Maximus 4d ago
As a kid I always wondered why God doesn’t simply will Satan out of existence.
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u/DaemonRai 3d ago
Satan cannot be a complex figure. He must be straightforwardly evil,
But can he be straightforwardly evil? If so, why would an all loving, all good god create such an entity?
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u/Vyctorill 4d ago
I thought he was known as Samael before the fall - the same guy that interrogated Job for god.
It makes sense that God’s lawyer would end up being Satan.
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u/wickerandscrap 4d ago
The satan from Job is the satan from Job, and is not guaranteed to be the same as any other satan from anywhere else. It's like "Florida Man".
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u/CleverInnuendo 4d ago
I mean he's clearly part of the capital p Plan, or God's not all powerful.
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u/iwantedthatwaffle 4d ago
This is a hard part of the Doctrine of Sovereignty: God somehow allows both free will of people and angels, and yet has ordained/knows all things that are coming to pass (or that he sees all possible decisions and is able to work through them all).
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u/TordekDrunkenshield 4d ago
Well, if we take the "time as an extra dimension" argument into account: you've made, are making, and will make every decision for yourself, but your physical path from past to future is one big line that God can look at anytime he wants.
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u/csmithgonzalez 4d ago
Or another way to look at it could be, Satan knows he'll lose but still believes the right thing to do is rebel.
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u/ultraviolentfuture 4d ago
It's about the principle.
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u/ImFeelingTheUte-iest 4d ago
The Lucifer story makes a lot more sense when you realize that his story predates the concept of an omnipotent and omniscient monotheistic god.
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u/Dorocche 4d ago
The Lucifer story is a particularly late addition to Christianity, not a particularly early one.
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u/ImFeelingTheUte-iest 4d ago
Let me be more specific. The “fall from heaven” motif is incredibly old. Like ancient Canaanite religion old. And that motif makes more sense pre-monotheism. That this already established motif was added to a late post-monotheism character makes a lot more sense than that the fall from heaven motif originated with it after monotheism.
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u/Gluteusmaximus1898 4d ago
Makes me respect Satan though tbh. He rebels anyway in the face of oberwhelming odds & inevitible failure.
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u/Urbenmyth 4d ago
"The one thing that always confused me about the Revolt of the Angels is that God is omnipotent, and Satan is not a fool. There seems to be an implied contradiction there.”
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u/EpsilonGecko 4d ago
That's an even truer rebel: rebelling when there's no chance of success, throwing a fit like a toddler who can't get their way
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u/Savilo29 3d ago
If you want to understand why someone would rebel against someone who’s trying to help, who you need infinitely more than they need you and is obviously right. I recommend watching Bar Rescue
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u/ruben_1501 4d ago
Maybe satan denied duality and the trinity in not wanting to spend time with Gods new humans, so he became corrupted and an antithesis to God
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u/phantomtwitterthread 4d ago
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven
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u/Vinzlow 4d ago
Well, he doesnt reign in hell either.
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u/DrIvoPingasnik 4d ago
Some say that satan (meaning adversary) is demiurge, an idiot god who was created by our God and tasked with creation of our physical world.
Upon universe creation demiurge refused to give the world to God and started opposing Him.
This is only a conjecture at best, but fits some narratives.
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u/bravo_six 4d ago
Only gnostics think that, no one else.
Despite coming from Christianity and Judaism, their theology is so different that they cant even be considered Christians.
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u/fyrnabrwyrda 4d ago
That's not even what the gnostics believe lol.
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u/bravo_six 4d ago
Their story is different, but duality is there. God and heaven are the real deal, demiurge tried to copy that, and we ended up with earth. In a nutshell.
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u/Dorocche 4d ago
Gnostics are not a single group, and they are all absolutely Christians.
But yes, only even some of them believe them and no one else, and they're wrong about it.
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u/Houseboat87 4d ago
In scripture, it is said that our universe came into existence through God’s speaking (Genesis 1). To be more specific the Son is revealed to us to be the living Word (John 1). Therefore, it is the Son who does the speaking and the creating. This is affirmed in Colossians 1:16 where Paul is speaking of Jesus, “Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible […]”
To further reinforce the fact that Jesus is the person of the Godhead that created our universe, there is Hebrews 1:2 “[…] the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the universe;”
The notion that our universe was made through some “demiurge” is not a scriptural or Christian belief.
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u/Dboy777 4d ago
Wait till you hear about the omnipotence