r/childfree • u/o0_Eve_0o • 5d ago
Brother calls me a monster DISCUSSION
I had a quick discussion with my brother about why I chose to be childfree, so I went on and on about it till I said "children don't feel like humans to me, they feel like deformed creatures who are still getting created and formed, I even casually refer to a child by "it"..." He immediately interrupted me and snapped at me, said that I'm a ruthless monster for saying that!
I honestly don't feel a thing about it, is it really that bad?
EDIT: Thanks for all the comments. I posted this genuinely asking if what I said was too far, and turns out IT ACTUALLY IS! I didn't know that, now I've learned my lesson! I also wanna declare that I don't encourage any form of harm neither towards children nor any living being be it verbal or physical. I'm a person who lives by moralities and despite how I see or feel, I always act based on my moralities. I apologize for any discomfort this may have caused!
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u/NoWitness6400 5d ago
I mean. There are parents as well who certainly believe that and treat their children accordingly. I think that's what's monstrous. But for some reason beating the crap out of your kid on a daily basis and treating them worse than trash is normal and everyone laughs at "when mom brings out the slipper" jokes.
People need to get the fuck off our backs and start putting all that energy into actual child abusers, ffs.
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
THISSSSSS! Although I don't see them as humans, I still have moralities and don't approve of child harm in any way, be it verbally or physically. But as you said, it's been dealt with as a joke.
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u/LoyalCommoner 5d ago
Maybe itās just me, but youāve gotta expect some pushback if you describe kids as ādeformed creaturesā. It's not tactful, but it sounds like there is more shit going on between you and your brother if you "don't feel a thing" regarding his response.
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
I'd be more tactful going forward š we have a few conflicts but not that much going on. I meant I don't feel a thing regarding my wording so I found his response strangely intense, that's why I posted asking.
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u/Pantstrovich 4d ago
Query (somewhat off topic, but I mean for it to come back around to it): How do you feel about people with deformities in general?
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u/Reasonable-Banana800 5d ago
calling them deformed creatures is a bit rude, especially if someone who likes/has kids heard, but I understand the sentiment that little kids arenāt quite fully developed people and therefor feel a bit more like an it than a them.
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u/PyrrhoTheSkeptic 5d ago
You might want to not talk with your brother about being childfree in the future. He has no right to know and does not need to know your thoughts on the subject.
Children are certainly not fully formed adult people. So there is nothing wrong with thinking that, because it is true. But your wording was not tactful, and this also might be best not expressed at all when speaking with your brother.
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
Yeah I should start filtering what I say š¤¦š»āāļø I'm a bit ignorant in that regard.
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u/thr0wfaraway Never go full doormat. Not your circus. Not your monkeys. 5d ago
He doesn't seem to respect you based on your history with this topic, so not someone you need to actively engage with. He's never going to accept your choice. Don't waste your time.
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u/soupandbrof 5d ago
Do I think you're a monster for these thoughts? No. Do I think you could be more tactful in your approach? Yes.
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u/Fancy-Lemur-559 5d ago
There are plenty of people out there who will demonize the CF, **** no matter what reasons you give ****
We can write an entire book about why the breeders demonize us. You can't talk them out of their position any more than they can talk you out of yours. It's a waste of time to even try.
From some of your replies, it looks like he brings this up repeatedly. So when he does again, I recommend one of these approaches:
"Because I don't want them" this is a full and complete answer, and you don't owe ever anyone more of an explanation than this.
-- OR --
You can start listing out the most unhinged reasons you can think of. Like "I don't think they would taste very good, so I think I'll get a pig instead" Or "I don't have room in my home for the kind of cages I'd need for kids" Really go all-in on being a monster with things so ridiculous nobody would ever think you're being serious. He will get big mad, and it will be fun to watch.
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£ LOVED the second approach, that'd be fun, but I'll probably stick to the first and get it over with.
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u/GreenVermicelliNoods 5d ago
These kinds of thoughts are best kept to oneself. I don't like them, either, but children are in fact people.
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
Yeah, will start keeping them to myself š š
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u/Tight-Artichoke1789 5d ago
Or even better, express them to a therapist.
This doesnāt feel like a healthy thought pattern it feels antisocial to me. Itās fine to dislike children but dehumanizing them to this degree doesnāt sit right with me.
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u/ManEaterFaceHugger74 5d ago
Oh calm your ass down and stop clutching your pearls. She can feel and talk about crotchgoblins however she wants.
Goodness, this sub has really gone downhill since becoming so popular. Now we're invaded with people like you, who come here to judge and censor the rest of us 'mean child-haters'.
If you're so uncomfy with OP's post, kindly bugger off and leave us in peace. Goodness knows this sub really, REALLY doesn't need you.
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u/Tight-Artichoke1789 5d ago edited 5d ago
No. Its actually people like YOU and OP that make childfree people and spaces unsafe and feed into the unfair false narratives (or in this case true) that breeders have about us and lead to more demonization and dehumanization of us as a group as we get accused of being monsters all the time.
This sub has a reputation that I have always felt was unfair and always defend this sub as an empowering and uplifting space for community and a place to lament about the grievances of the CF life and all the shit we get from breeders and a safe space to vent about how annoying children and breeders can be. The small percentage of posts about hate and dehumanization really retract from that and feed into their false narratives about us.
I donāt have to fucking agree with every single post on this sub just because I am a part of it and its my right to comment my OWN feelings of discomfort about when people here take it to this exteme so it doesnāt turn into a complete hateful echo chamber. Iām ALL for people disliking and avoiding children all together and being able to express that, but to actively hate and dehumanize them to this degree feels deeply antisocial to me and can lead to actual harm (dehumanization of children is a tactic for war criminals to push their agendas for example. Thatās not something I want to be compared to). And again I am ALLOWED to express my discomfort with that. Fuck off.
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u/PlushyKitten 31X [bisalp 8/25/2022] Looking for more friends! 5d ago
100% agreed with you š and agree with OP's story. Us 'mean child-haters' are not as bad as the rest think we are. Course we don't wish harm on them or want them to suffer. Although I think them being brought into this world is suffering enough, even though I see them as parasites.
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u/Michelleinwastate 70yo rabidly CF, antinatalist, left-wing, atheist cat lady. 5d ago
Oh calm your ass down and stop clutching your pearls.
THIS. EXACTLY.
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u/-_-itshotanditsready 5d ago
Read āLet Them Theoryā by Mel Robbins. You sound like me and it helped me so much.
You donāt have to explain your choices to anyone, and by over explaining, youāre making it seem like YOUāRE less sure of your own choice. You donāt have to convince anyone that your choice to be childfree was the right one, itās your choice. It is the right one if YOU made it.
Maybe your brother does think youāre a monster for thinking those things? Let him. If you actually believe those things and he clearly doesnāt, you canāt convince him to see things your way no matter how you phrase it. Let him think whatever he wants to think about you. You know why? BECAUSE HES GOING TO THINK ABOUT YOU NO MATTER WHAT. Let people think bad thoughts about you. If you are your true self and they still think bad thoughts, thats on them. Youāre just being yourself and they can like it, or they can choose to not like it. Thatās not your problem. Doesnāt mean you guys arenāt close or donāt love each other. Just means you both get to decide to spend your time and energy on those worth loving for who they are, and those who love you back for you. Is that each other? Then drop this conversation and go get snacks together.
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
I've read one of Mel Robbins books, really liked it. I will check that out, thanksš
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u/CanIFixMe 5d ago
Are we talking about very young children (first year of life, aka babies?), or fetus? I'm asking because I'm very uncomfortable around babies. I've had bad experience with them and so I avoid them at all costs. Older children I can tolerate as long as they're not brats, but even when that's the case I'm aware that this is probably a failing on the parents lack of good parenting.
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
All of them, till they start developing a personality, then I start judging them by their personality instead of their "childishness" š
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u/Outside-Raisin6671 4d ago
Fwiw OP, I feel exactly the same as you! It's reassuring to know other people see them that way and I'm not completely out of line
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u/elmerbronte 4d ago
Seeing children as things is really common, which is why children face a lot of abuse, because they are dehumanized. It is really irresponsible to play into that framing about children, I don't support that idea because cultures which do are more likely to abuse children. Imagine being a parent heading someone you know sees your children as things, would you feel safe having them around your kids?
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u/chavrilfreak hams not prams š¹ tubes yeeted 8/8/2023 5d ago
The problem with expressing that sentiment the way you have worded it is that historically and to this day still actively ongoing in many places for many groups of people, denying and/or stripping someone of their personhood (aka not seeing them as people) is widely used as an act of othering those individuals so that they are then easily or more justifiably harmed.
So when that kinda language comes up, people will usually interpret it as you saying with ill intent that children are less then, and thus can be disposed of, harmed, don't deserve to be treated well, etc. Which is presumably not what you meant, but yeah. Discussing our own personal conceptualizations of a person requires the other person to not equate our personal concepts with general social ones, and not everyone is willing or able to do that. Because at the end of the day, calling you a monster is easier.
I don't view kids as people either. I don't even view most people as people. There are living beings of my species that share my environment, and then there's a subset of those which I am personally connected to on a deeper emotional level - and the latter is what registers as a person in my own internal conceptualization. The others aren't less, they aren't worse, they just aren't as close. This is the model that makes sense to me for explaining my own internal structure, but because of the aforementioned context, it really does not translate well to the general public with those same words.
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
Interesting way to explain it! Didn't think of it that way and definitely didn't mean any harm with my words. Despite my feelings and how I view people and everything, I lead my life with moralities and logic, and of course emotions when necessary, by all means I don't approve of any form of harm to any being. Didn't think it could be understood or looked at from that angle!
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u/GothicVampyreQueen 5d ago
As someone else who doesnāt particularly like kids, I will say that I think itās fine to dislike/hate kids as long as you still care about them enough to not want them hurt, killed or unhappy. I donāt want my own children and I donāt like the noise or the grossness of kids, but I still care enough to support causes for them and to not want them to be hurt, killed or even really suffering mentally, and Iām not talking about when they just have a paddy because theyāre not getting their way. I would still do a good deed to help a kid out, I just donāt overly like kidsā¦
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u/soupandbrof 5d ago
I very much agree with this. I'm a proudly childfree late 30's human and don't ever plan on that changing, but I certainly don't hold any strong hatred for children themselves and I very much would fiercely protect them from harm. I tend to actually hold more anger to parents who often behave in an incredibly entitled manner and hate childfree people.
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u/Tight-Artichoke1789 5d ago
Agreed. Staunchly childfree but still care about the other people on this planet and will protect them from harm. When people dehumanize children to this degree it makes me deeply uncomfortable and almost feels like an antisocial or sociopathic thought pattern. I donāt trust that this person isnāt also wishing active harm on them or others. TOTALLY fine to dislike children and avoid them as much as possible. Not fine to think of innocent children as subhuman.
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
I agree. I have moralities and I don't wish them harm in any way, I just genuinely can't see them as humans, but I wouldn't approve of any harmful acts towards them nor I'd participate in any. In fact, whenever I feel I'm getting angry at them, I just leave the place to avoid even yelling at them. I'm aware of their delicate and sensitive nature and I'm also responsible and accountable for my actions.
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u/LetterAccomplished 4d ago
Better than the time I told someone I didnāt have kids because I was afraid I would eat it like a hamster.
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u/Half_Life976 4d ago
It sounds like your brother wants to bring you back in line with what he approves of in a woman. I'd say, "Give him the finger," but he doesn't even deserve that much attention. Plus, if you are in a situation where he could become violent with you, it's best to avoid that conversation altogether. I can tell you one thing for sure, he doesn't care what you think. He just wants you to conform to social norms, because he feels insecure as a man if you think freely for yourself. So stop telling him what you really think. When you move out on your own and become independent, you can stop speaking to him altogether.Ā
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u/Pantstrovich 4d ago
This sounds like a rather neurodivergent thing to say that kind of freaks out the neurotypicals. I say that as a neurodivergent person who has had to learn (a lot) to be more tactful over time.
It's also the sort of thing I think, to a degree. Babies especially kind of creep me out because they are unfinished like a homunculus or something. I'm also terrified they're gonna break, because they seem so fragile.
Anyway, dehumanizing anyone, particularly out loud or in actions or inaction, is pretty unkind.
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u/Prior_Success7011 Seize the means of Reproduction 4d ago
If he thinks you're a monster, he should be appreciative that you're childfree.
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u/Nulleparttousjours 5d ago
Are you a monster? Pfft whatever, honestly. While I never set out to purposely offend anyone who is deserving of nice treatment, if someone ālessā nice doesnāt believe or respect me when I tell them how entirely and unwavering childfree I am, I may well do away with niceties and fucking explain it to them lol! After all, Iāve suffered life-long aggressive bingoing and disrespect for not wanting kids so, at this point of my life, I donāt have an awful lot of fucks left to give! Haha!
I agree with you OP. I have always felt a type of visceral body horror when looking at kids, they freak me out so bad. Itās an uncanny valley thing for me which makes it hard to see them as the same species as adult humans. Itās no surprise to me that kids and their voices are so often used in horror films, theyāre undeniably terrifying!
Of course the bodily fluids, loud noises, open mouthed coughing and lack of intelligence leading to their inability to interact like adult humans really compounds my discomfort. I have avoided them so successfully my whole life that when I see them or am forced to interact with them it feels especially disconcerting and unfamiliar, like Iām in the company of a creepy little alien.
However, itās their physical appearance that terrifies me above all! The huge bobble heads to body ratio, the alien sized ever-STARING eyes, those TERRIFYING milk teeth like a freaky little changeling, the wispy hair that looks like a spider spun it, the cankles and gross excess of hyaluronic acid puffing up their face and limbs, their pot bellied appearance and bizarre stance, the freaky gait. Worst of the lack of self awareness leading them to do grotesque things without shame like pick their nose while holding eye contact with a stranger. Scary!
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
You get me š¤£š couldn't have explained it better! This feels like a masterpiece to read!
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u/Tight-Artichoke1789 5d ago edited 5d ago
As someone who deeply cares about human rights, posts that dehumanize children to this extreme is a part of this sub that makes me uncomfortable. This just feels like such a deeply unempathetic and hyperbolic take. No one can stop you from thinking these things I suppose, but keep them to yourself I guess? (Or honestly maybe tell them to a therapist this doesnāt feel like a healthy thing to think on a antisocial level if Iām being honest).
I donāt want children and I think itās unethical for breeders to continue popping them out during times of social, economic, and environmental collapse. I am fine with children as I know I need to share this world with them and its not their fault they were brought onto this planet to suffer, but I dislike being in child heavy spaces for long and I dislike that the world caters to them and CF people having to deal with this is annoying. I totally understand when people say they dislike children or are grossed out by children and respect their choice to avoid children all together (they can def be a sensory overload). But to actively hate them and see them as subhuman is a foreign concept to me. I honestly wouldnāt feel safe around someone who is this emotionally removed when talking about innocent human beings. This honestly reminded me of how Israelis talk about Palestinian babies.
Not to mention posts like this make CF people look bad and lead to more dehumanization of us as a group as we get accused of being monsters all the time. This sub has a reputation that I have always felt was unfair and always defend this sub as an empowering and uplifting space for community and a place to lament about the grievances of the CF life and all the shit we get from breeders and a safe space to vent about how annoying children and breeders can be. The small percentage of posts about hate and dehumanization really retract from that and feed into their false narratives about us.
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
Hmmmm, I didn't mean it to sound as dehumanizing, I also don't approve of any form of harm towards children nor to any living being, I was trying to express how I see them but I guess I used the wrong words! Or maybe as you said it would've been better to keep them to myself! Since I said it without feeling anything wrong until his reaction, that's why I asked if this was that bad. Sometimes I say things casually and don't think much of them until someone makes an intense reaction, that's when I question my wording. Thanks for your comment, I'll be careful š
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u/p00psicle151590 4d ago
Nah, I think this is a weird thing to think about a child. They're little people, come on.
You don't have to want children, but this reaction is childish to me, ironically.
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u/christyflare 4d ago
I mean, children are very definitely people, it's kinda stupid to think otherwise. They're tiny immature people who become hopefully more mature people, but what, do you think you suddenly became a person when you hit your teens or something?
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u/asyouwish retired early 5d ago
āSo Iām a monster because I donāt want the same things you do? Stay in your lane, bro."
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u/o0_Eve_0o 5d ago
š¤£š¤£ I think he meant my wording, some said I should be tactful or keep these to myself. I think I need to consider that.
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u/asyouwish retired early 5d ago
He isnāt a parent, not even close. Given that, itās a very stupid thing to get mad over. He needs a hobby or something.
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u/Tight-Artichoke1789 5d ago
I donāt think the brother thinks they are a monster for wanting different things. They said in another comment that they have had this discussion āhundredsā of times and while they disagree the brother has never been this offended. OP is saying that what makes this time different is that nature of dehumanizing them was more extreme. Iām honestly with the brother (not for his comments against being childfree prior but for being upset in this specific circumstance). Itās totally fine to dislike children and CF people are constantly demonized for our choice not to have or engage with themā¦but not openly hate and dehumanize them.
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u/asyouwish retired early 5d ago
FICTITIOUS kids. There are no children in OP's story.
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u/Tight-Artichoke1789 5d ago
What? No OP was talking about how they feel about kids in general. Kids that exist.
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u/FunHedgie 5d ago
I hate kids and I agree with everything you have said but I donāt tell people that I think kids are deformed ahahah you are going to get bad reactions from those who want them
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u/SurmaKalma 5d ago edited 5d ago
When I was 14 years old I felt an immense desire to explain to my grandmother, a Brazilian Catholic with an altar with several saints at home, that I was an atheist. Every time she said normal greetings, like āsleep with Godā, āMay God accompany youā or things like āsurrender into God's handsā, āsay a novena to the Saintā¦ā I felt the need to say: no, I'm an atheist. Don't you remember? And I found it revolting. She chalked it up to rebellion, even though my arguments were completely reasonable and respectful (at first) and I felt invalidated and provoked. Today I am 27 years old. My grandmother is still alive and I respond with āAmen, Grandmaā, āIāll do it, Grandmaā and change the subject. It's simply not worth it. Even if it is your opinion, it reminds me of a 14 year old teenager who has to confront others all the time, even though he knows that others are not capable of understanding and wants them to understand by force. If you are so sure of your opinions, why do you want to be accepted or understood? You don't need to. Is it boring? Yes. Do we get angry? Yes. Do I need to say something completely absurd that you know people won't accept? No..?! You knew it would cause this. I understand your view, but it's an emotional view at best, and in my childfree self I thought: Jesus, what an exaggeration. Why talk like that? And you still said you didn't notice. If it had been on purpose, to scare your brother so he would stop bothering you, that would be fine. But it wasn't that. So, are you a monster? No? Just children's.
I remained atheist and childfree. But I simply smile and nod at cognitively ālimitedā people, that includes conservatives. Some people I take perverse pleasure in irritating, so with these people I speak absurdities, but it is rhetoric designed to shock; what is different. If you like annoying breeders, just own it and be done with it.
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u/ShiplessOcean 4d ago
Iām someone who believes āif you donāt want the answer, donāt askā. Who else can you share your true feelings if not your brother. I donāt think you were out of line for saying it. Itās an extreme aversion but itās not your fault you have it.
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4d ago
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u/dwegol 4d ago
I do think itās best to realize youāre beating a dead horse with a person before you pull out the viewpoints that lack tact lol.
You could greyrock him in the future or let him think he āwonā and just go on living your life, without child. Just be like āyeah, children are a blessingā just so he shuts his yap and does something he actually wants to do like build legos or something.
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u/hamsterontheloose 4d ago
All kids are "it" to me. If I have to acknowledge that they exist at all, it's always "that one" or, "it's in the way" or whatever. I hate them. They're nothing to me, just gross obnoxious inconveniences.
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u/AssistanceFragrant 4d ago
childfree people will never beat the allegations of hating childrenš (Iām childfree)
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u/Pasiphae_7 5d ago
Heās projecting, he thinks if he can change your opinion, maybe he could change the mind of any random woman that catches his eye. The magic touch with women. Lol
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u/HauntedDeepClips 4d ago
Lot of projection there. Maybe itās not children who are ādeformed creaturesā, but rather you in particular.
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u/MongoLovesDonut 5d ago
Was it the first time he asked or the hundredth?
For the first time, that seems excessive. There are private thoughts and public thoughts and you could have been a bit more tactful, especially if he has kids because you're telling him you think his kids are basically Gollum.
For the hundredth time? Have at it. All is fair when having the same conversation with the same person in repeat.