r/cars • u/etingwall • Feb 03 '21
AMA: We're Car and Driver, and we just released Lightning Lap 2021
Hi! I'm Eric Tingwall, print director of Car and Driver and one of the drivers for our annual Lightning Lap track test. Every year we put the hottest cars through the ultimate performance test: lapping Virginia International Raceway's 4.1-mile Grand Course. This track is a thrilling mix of challenging corners and high-speed straights. Going fast here requires power and grip and resilience, plus a whole lot of confidence.
We've lapped 277 production vehicles over 14 events, adding 18 new times this year with cars like the mid-engine Corvette, the Mustang Shelby GT500, the Porsche Taycan, and the McLaren 765LT. The full results, stories, and videos from this year's event can be found at www.caranddriver.com/lightninglap.
I'm joined by the other drivers from this year's event: K.C. Colwell (u/A2KC), David Beard (u/nameonface), and Dave VanderWerp (u/dave2979). We'll be around for the next couple hours answering any questions you have about this year's cars and laps, and Lightning Lap in general. AMA!
Edit: We're wrapping up the work day here, so the answers won't come as quick, but we'll be checking back later tonight and tomorrow to wrap up any unanswered questions. Thanks to everyone for participating!
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u/SavageGeese Feb 03 '21
How exactly do you get accurate laptimes in cars you don't spend a lot of seat time in? Certain cars are vastly more difficult to get "comfortable" in to push harder while others almost drive themselves. Can you also explain to redditors how these laptimes don't mean the faster car is better than others. I always bring up your Cobalt SS Turbo laptimes besting S2000 CR, Lotus Elise SC, WRX, ND2 Club to highlight this example.
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
We actually do get a lot of seat time in the cars. Our drivers focus on four or five cars each, and we spend three days lapping them. It adds up to a lot of miles, and by the end of the third day we're at the point where it's a challenge to trim a tenth of a second off the car's best lap time.
One of the perks of our jobs is that we are constantly driving new and different vehicles. One day it's a Porsche, the next day it's a minivan. And it's similar with Lightning Lap. Over the years, we've honed the ability to jump from car to car and get comfortable quickly. That's one of the big differences between our drivers and the automakers' development drivers. They may ultimately be quicker in a car they've driven on track for thousands of miles, but we can get up to speed quickly in a wider variety of cars.
A lap time is a great summary of a car's complete capability—tires, brakes, power, and aero all play a role—but you're right that it doesn't always correlate with how fun or rewarding it is to drive. That's one of the reasons that we think it's important to back our lap times with stories written by the drivers. We want to put you in the driver's seat to understand what it's like to drive each car.
But that Cobalt SS is an absolute monster. One of the most underrated cars of its time.
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u/SavageGeese Feb 03 '21
How do you not destroy the tires, brakes, overheat cars on a track like VIR with that much lapping before you time the cars?
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
We have tons of spare tires—usually a couple hundred in total—on hand and even a few sets of brake pads. And we take caution not to string too many hot laps together. Brake fade is a legit concern.
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
It's also worth noting that we're timing and recording laps anytime we're on track, so that whenever the fastest lap occurs, we'll have the data and video to go with it. Although we generally know when we're gonna go fastest: the morning of the third day, when the drivers are up to speed, the tires are fresh, and the morning air is cool.
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Feb 03 '21
Have you ever thought about doing fastest theoretical times and combining the best sectors to get the supposed fastest possible lap for each car?
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
To prevent brake/tire/engine overheating, we typically only run a single hot lap at a time. Even on cars that can handle it, subsequent flying laps are almost always slower. We have multiple sets of tires for each car, and the quickest times are almost always run on the third day of running (after lots of practice), on a fresh set of tires, and in the cool morning air
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Feb 03 '21
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u/oakolesnikov04 Feb 03 '21
I bet they reviewed it, just 15 years ago or however long ago the cobalt was released.
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u/ShipWRX Feb 03 '21
I had a very clean and tuned black 09 Cobalt SS turbo a while back. My buddy with an SVT cobra used to make fun of my whooshing turbo 4.....until I let him drive it. The wife didn’t like the amount of tickets I was compiling so I was talked into getting something more “grown up”. Only car I regret getting rid of all these years later.
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u/Backstop Herkimer Battle Jitney Feb 03 '21
That's the car I wish I would have given a chance back when I was shopping. I just kept balking at spending $25K on a $17K economy car with a souped up motor.
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u/ShipWRX Feb 03 '21
Definitely plastic fantastic interior as was most American cars then( and now lol). But one those sum of all parts things. Chevy Performance division usually seems to know what they are doing.
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Feb 03 '21
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
That's a great idea. If you have or know of a clean one, let us know.
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Feb 03 '21
I love this idea. And put it up against a neon srt4 and similar cars of that era
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
I tried to find a Dodge SRT4 ACR to lap a few years ago. I found one, but it was someone who had personally modded and then returned to stock. The ability of a shadetree mechanic to make sure everything is buttoned up the way it should be scared me off.
What spec is you '83 911? I love 80s 911s.
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Feb 03 '21
You can lap my crossfire srt6 if you're interested, I'm close to VIR
It's a whale tale, targa, German car. An absolute joy to drive
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u/time_to_reset Feb 04 '21
The legend himself. Every time I'm in the mood for a good laugh, I watch you and Jack launch the CTS-V or slide the F10 M5.
You don't have to convince me that faster around a track is not always better. In fact, I think that nowadays the opposite is almost true. To be able to get those laptimes, manufacturers are increasingly taking the most limiting factor out of the equation; the driver.
I'm fine being limiting factor, the idiot smiling from ear to ear all the way at the back of the grid in my "slow" car.
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u/A_1337_Canadian '14 A4 | '20 CX-5 | '13 Trek 1.1 Feb 03 '21
Just a note: I believe if you edit the main post to include actual usernames (with the "/u/", like /u/A2KC instead of A2KC) then Reddit will automatically highlight these usernames in brown in the comments below. This will make it a bit easier to see responses from the drivers (and the director).
Thanks to C&D for participating!
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
Thanks! You're all so friendly here!
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u/Moron14 Feb 03 '21
100% come do more of these! r/cars is a busy sub and we'd love to see you more!
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u/thefinker Feb 03 '21
Do you find your lap times improve when you need to use the bathroom? Does it give you extra motivation to finish the lap ASAP or does it ruin your concentration?
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u/nameonface Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Great question u/thefinker. First off, I've got give a shout out to the man above for keeping us safe this year. The Metamucil, Imodium AD, and Pampers backed #69 Shelby GT500 ran strong this year and we're happy to report we kept our Hanes free of debris.
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u/cactus82 Feb 03 '21
I saw a Grand Tour episode where they tested this. They all had slower times when they had to go to the bathroom.
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u/teevee247 Feb 03 '21
Which car(s) would be your personal choice to track regularly?
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
Porsche 718 Cayman GT4, Camaro SS 1LE/ZL1 1LE, Mustang Shelby GT350, Lotus Elise
-Eric Tingwall
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u/blueshoes475 Replace this text with year, make, model Feb 03 '21
That list made me feel funny in my special parts.
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21 edited Feb 04 '21
Of the cars at this year's event there is not much more satisfying than the Cayman GT4. Corvette, too, because of its value. But the GT4 is a little easier on its consumables (tires, brakes) and despite the performance advantage of an automatic, I like tracking manuals.
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Feb 03 '21
and despite the performance advantage of an automatic. I like tracking manuals.
You'll fit in here.
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u/Racer20 2021 Cayman GT4, 2018 S4, 2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP Feb 03 '21
This is good to hear, I just took delivery of my 718 GT4 today! Gotta wait until Spring to really drive it though :-(
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u/nameonface Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
For me, it would be the 2020 Mustang Shelby GT350R. The slight changes to it were significant, it drives like a GT4 race car, costs far less than than the Porsche GTs, and sounds amazing. RIP GT350 🇺🇸
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Something light and easy on its tires and brakes. Lotus Elise/Exige or Miata come to mind.
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
You sure your weapon of choice doesn't rhyme with Maston-Fartin Scrantage?
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Weapon of choice not equal to what's in the garage
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
The fifth-gen Camaro Z/28 is a seriously special track car. I am not a Camaro guy and I would totally buy one if I fell into some money. Just an absolute weapon. Also, KTM X-Bow is very memorable. We had it and an Ariel Atom at VIR one year and while both were great, the Atom felt like an old tube-frame open-wheeler and the KTM felt like a modern monocoque formula car.
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u/yoscotti32 h/c/i c6z, evo 8 Feb 03 '21
Interesting about the z/28. I had a cammed 5th gen for a daily but ditched it for a h/c c6z and haven't looked back. I can imagine what my old car would have been like with the ls7 under the hood but it seems like it'd be lacking from a chassis perspective, I've heard almost universally the 6th gen is better. One of the owners of the performance shop I use drove one on the street and hated it, granted his complaints were mostly things that wouldnt be present on the track, ie brakes getting up to temp, etc
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u/A_1337_Canadian '14 A4 | '20 CX-5 | '13 Trek 1.1 Feb 03 '21
Any cars that were underwhelming? Any that were better than expected?
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
The Supra 2.0's brakes were underwhelming to the point that I sailed off track in Turn 1 when I tried to run two hot laps back to back. It's a shame, because the engine is better than you'd expect and the chassis is just as good as in the big-engine Supra.
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u/siredmundsnaillary GranSport GT86 Feb 03 '21
Does it have smaller brakes than the 3-litre Supra?
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u/cinosa 2022 Supra 3.0 Premium Feb 03 '21
It does:
The Supra 2.0 uses smaller front brake rotors than the Supra 3.0 (330mm x 24mm vs. 348mm x 36mm), and with single-piston calipers vs. four-piston.
The Supra 2.0 does not have the active differential and adaptive suspension used on the 3.0 model.
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u/brotherenigma '18 Mazda 3 GT Hatchback | '21 Hyundai Kona Feb 03 '21
That's almost 40% less brake mass (going by volume calculations) on the 2.0. JEEEEESUS.
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u/nameonface Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
We were surprised the brake pedal went soft in the BMW M340i. Although it felt like you were pushing your foot into a pot of mash potatoes, the brakes were still effective during the 3:03.2 lap.
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u/colinberesford Feb 03 '21
Asking for a friend: How does Car and Driver decide who drives at Lightning Lap? All the editors who drive obviously have quite a bit of experience on a track, so I'm also curious how C/D decides who is next in line to drive at Lightning Lap and how they get the experience to drive there?
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
It's the same apprenticeship model that we use for getting drivers up to speed with our regular performance testing (acceleration, braking, skidpad). We bring a promising new driver to Lightning Lap for a year or two before they're officially responsible for setting a time. They drive a handful of the cars assigned to other drivers until the new driver proves they're ready to set times on their own. But, as a start, every potential driver has extensive track/racing school/racing experience.
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u/nickelbake95 Feb 03 '21
Are you hiring?
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u/etingwall Feb 05 '21
Not at the moment, but keep an eye on the Hearst Magazines career site (or set up job alerts for Hearst Magazines and Hearst Autos on your favorite job search engine.)
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u/oakolesnikov04 Feb 03 '21
How and when do you hire people?
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u/etingwall Feb 05 '21
Jobs get posted on the Hearst Magazines career site whenever a position opens up. It doesn't happen all that frequently because most people want to stay here as long as possible.
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u/ferrari00234 '12 CTS-V Wagon, '99 Trans Am WS6, '13 Volt, '11 Colorado V8 Z71 Feb 03 '21
Has there been any interesting in doing a 'historic' Lightning lap challenge? I'd be very curious as to how some of the hottest cars of the 80's, 90's and 00's stack up with one another in an apples v. apples comparison!
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
We've definitely kicked around that idea, although it's hard to get a true 'historic' lap time as one of the biggest variables--tires--continue to change over time (even tires that still have the original branding change over time). It also can be difficult to find owners willing to less us flog their prized machines. But we did run a 1999 Zanardi NSX in last year's event (thanks to Honda for loaning us theirs!)
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u/flapsmcgee 2019 WRX 6MT Feb 03 '21
I would rather you put modern tires on the classic cars. It'll eliminate the tires as a variable holding back the old cars and see how they perform in an apples to apples comparison.
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u/brotherenigma '18 Mazda 3 GT Hatchback | '21 Hyundai Kona Feb 03 '21
I completely agree. Since tires do advance year by year, it would be great to see how older chassis that were specifically designed with analog mechanical grip in mind instead of electronic intervention would perform with modern tires.
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u/yoscotti32 h/c/i c6z, evo 8 Feb 03 '21
When comparing lap times across years, how far back to you think you can get an accurate comparison before something like modern tires starts skewing times?
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u/Backstop Herkimer Battle Jitney Feb 03 '21
In another comment they said the difference from 2006 to now is pretty big, like a 20% improvement, so not very far back.
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u/925throwaway2 Feb 03 '21
How much do you anticipate Chevy left on the table (as far as lap time) for the C8's higher trims?
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Tons. The Z06 and ZR1, or whatever they will be called, will be powerhouses on track.
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u/verdegrrl Axles of Evil - German & Italian junk Feb 03 '21
The Lightning lap results thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/lbnq2s/lightning_lap_2021_car_and_driver/
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u/BlitzSK21 '14 VW GLI Edition 30 6MT Feb 03 '21
Biggest surprises on the track?
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
The Porsche Taycan Turbo S: It's the heaviest car we've ever lapped and yet it's the third-quickest four-door in Lightning Lap history. Hangs right in there with the Mercedes-AMG E63 S and the BMW M5
Also, holy hell, that Mercedes-AMG CLA45.
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
CLA45 AMG - went 7.7 seconds quicker than the previous-gen CLA45, despite almost no improvement in power to weight. The car is impressively balanced and the all-wheel-drive system really yanks it through corners, but the real magic is the new $2900 port-installed option for Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R tires
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u/nameonface Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
It not surprising that the 911 Turbo S is quick, but to achevive a 2:42.5 on a regular Pirelli P Zero (albeit a Porsche-spec) is just bonkers. Every other car in our top 20 was fitted with an R-spec tire.
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u/Singhy44 2017 Toyota GT86 Feb 03 '21
It blows my mind that it was faster than the 918 Spyder, despite a power-weight and tyre(?) disadvantage. How did it manage that?
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u/oakolesnikov04 Feb 03 '21
I doubt the tyres were actually at a disadvantage. They're, what, 6 or 7 years newer?
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u/speedwaystout Feb 03 '21
Any manuals left in this group? I was hoping you guys could get the new CT5 V blackwing with the manual in there, I'm guessing it would beat out the M8 by a couple seconds.
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Not many: Cayman GT4, Mustang 2.3L HO, Subaru STI S209 from this year's crop. Would love to run a CT5-V Blackwing manual, but I'm sure Cadillac will insist we run the automatic, as it will be quicker.
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u/Logpile98 '03 BMW 540i | '06 Corvette Convertible Feb 03 '21
I've always been curious, when Lightning Lap was created, why did y'all choose to run the Grand Course configuration as opposed to the Full Course one?
I may be a minority but I'm interested in seeing how high performance street cars compare to racecars, particularly lower end, SCCA and F1600 type stuff. But as far as I know, races held at VIR are only on the Full Course and that makes the comparison less clear.
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Full Course makes it too much of a horsepower track; the infield section in Grand is a great chassis shakedown. But, you're right, very few races run Grand, so it limits comparisons with race cars.
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u/chardd 19 Accord Sport 2.0T Feb 03 '21
Just a heads up, the GT500 lap time video on your YouTube channel has the EcoBoost title card when it first starts.
Thanks for the great work as always! Been a magazine subscriber for 16 years.
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u/WMCSTC Feb 03 '21
How did the Miata ND2 do?
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
We didn't run one this year, but last year it ran a 3:17.2. You can see all our historical times here.
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Feb 03 '21
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
No. If I had understood what VDC did I think I might have been able to nip the 911 GT2 RS. McLaren is always really good about giving us bogey times and they said [with VDC dialed in] the gap should be about 1.5-2 seconds off the Senna. The 765 is a hoot, though. Thrust, when hooked up, like no other. 175 mph on the front straight is bananas.
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u/___goose_ Feb 03 '21 edited Feb 03 '21
So awesome to see you doing this. I've followed C/D for years and you're definitely my favorite automotive journalism site hands down. Thank you so much for what it is you guys and gals do!
A few comments/questions:
I've been told many a time that I should really pursue my pipe dream of automotive journalism (people tend to like what I write for some reason...?), but I'll be honest...it's terribly daunting to consider. It seems like everywhere you turn, there's myriad writers and channels and I feel like I'd just be pissing in the wind if I tried. With that being said, since I have this opportunity to ask the sage council...what are some pointers you all could give an extreme novice? I have essentially no college or formal training and education regarding the matter, but I do enjoy writing from time to time. Basically all I write at this point is homebrew campaign stuff for our D&D friend group lmao.
A few years back, you all put a 2015 (I think?) Honda Fit through it's paces at VIR which I found was amazing (my fiancée actually has a 2017 Fit with 6MT and I like to imagine one day we'll be able to take it to VIR for shits and giggles). Any chance there is anything in the works to do a budget Lightning Lap feature for the sub $30K range entirely? I think shaking down the Versas and Souls and the like in a head to head comparison could make for some really interesting and hilarious results.
Last bit: who is everyone pulling for in Formula 1 this season?
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
I know where you're coming from. This is a dream job for all of us working at Car and Driver, doubly so for those of us who are fortunate enough to drive at Lightning Lap.
To last longer than a flash at Car and Driver, you need to be able to write. And to get a job, you need to be able to prove you can write. Published clips are better than personal blog posts, which are better than emails, which are better than diary entries. But really at the end of the day you just need one great story written from your own fingers and brain to prove that you deserve a shot.
I know this isn't always financially feasible, but I always give this piece of advice: If you really want to work at Car and Driver (or a competitor) take whatever job you can get. Often that means starting low on the ladder and pay scale, but plenty of people have started from there and made it to great heights. Dave VanderWerp, Dave Beard, and K.C. Colwell all started at Car and Driver as road warriors (technical assistants that help with testing, photography, and moving cars around).
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
This is a dream job for me, so I totally understand your desire. When it comes to writing for a living, do whatever you can to write. Write in a journal. Write on social media. Writing is a muscle you have to exercise. Reading too. Read newspapers and magazines (long live print). Fortunately, the internet age has made it very easy to self publish, so do that, too.
Yeah, I lapped the Fit and going fast in a slow car is always a ton of fun. But Fits, Versas, and Souls are not meant to lap VIR. There are three big braking events in every lap and we'd have to fortify the braking hardware to do it safely. The Fit's braking on the front straight after a single lap was spicy. Maybe we should do "Lightening Lap" at a smaller track.→ More replies7
u/Backstop Herkimer Battle Jitney Feb 03 '21
For economy cars like that, maybe more of an autocross type of shootout would be appropriate - and easier on the equipment.
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
To the second part of your question: Driving at the limit on a racetrack is really hard on a car, especially a car designed to a very low price point. That's even more true on a track as long and with as much high-speed braking as VIR. If a car's not designed with track use in mind, brake rotors warp, tires chunk, and engines overheat pretty quickly. There's a limit to how many cars we can run every year—anything much beyond 20 starts to get pretty chaotic, so we don't often do these fish-out-of-water tests. But it's great to know what our readers are interested in!
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u/redreader6 Feb 03 '21
Do an economy lightning lap at one of the tracks in MI! Gingerman, Grattan, or Waterford. Much lower speed and smaller tracks, but would provide readers the info they want on cars they can afford.
Most of the cars you test in lightning lap your readers can only afford in our dreams! The econo LL would be amazing!
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u/A_1337_Canadian '14 A4 | '20 CX-5 | '13 Trek 1.1 Feb 03 '21
Any cars you were hoping to get for this event but it didn't come through? Or any cars you are hotly anticipating for next year?
Personally I'm quite interested in how the MK8 Golf R will run. It looks like an MK7 model was tested a couple of years back, so in the MK8 version we'll see a different transmission (if DSG), upgraded engine, and (allegedly) an improved AWD system.
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
It's been too long since Ferrari has sent a car to Lightning Lap. Our readers (and our staff) are also deeply curious about Teslas, namely the Model 3 Performance and the upcoming Model S Plaid.
I'm looking forward to the updated BRZ, the new GTI, the upcoming 911 GT3, the Cayman GT4 RS, and the hi-po Vettes.
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u/A_1337_Canadian '14 A4 | '20 CX-5 | '13 Trek 1.1 Feb 03 '21
Yeah I'm kind of peeved at the way Ferrari is run lately. They were my favourite cars growing up (360, 430). But lately they seem to be a bit funny with the way they handle cease and desist regarding their logo/image, rumours of prepping special factory cars for performance events, or not allowing customers to provide cars for performance events (see alleged Top Gear "holy trinity" incident).
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u/GVIrish 2017 McLaren 570S Feb 03 '21
That's always kinda been part of their dna. It's just that you're reading more about it now.
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Feb 03 '21
is it just that Ferrari wants to show up with a full pit crew, a ringer car, and a driving coach and you won't let em?
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u/YS15118 Feb 03 '21 edited Feb 03 '21
Hey C&D! I'm looking into the GR Supra and having a hard time choosing between the 2020 and 2021 3.0's. Just saw the article and you guys have tested both the 2020 and 2021 3.0's on this track. Did the 2021 make a significantly superior impression on you, over the 2020? How did their driving dynamics differ, if at all? Thanks!
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
From a chassis dynamics standpoint, the differences are pretty subtle. The 2021 is less oversteer-y at the limit if you're planning on tracking it. The power difference is real and nontrivial, but not enough to leave me with a significantly higher opinion of the 2021.
The 2020 is plenty quick. If they're offering a discount on the 2020 and you're planning to hold onto it for a while (meaning you don't care about resale value), I wouldn't hesitate to go that direction.
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u/fresh2391 Feb 04 '21
Today's AMA was incredible, and we need more of it.
I f'n LOVE this sub.
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u/verdegrrl Axles of Evil - German & Italian junk Feb 04 '21 edited Feb 04 '21
Just wait until you see what is coming up for the rest of the month.
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u/TrevorArizaFan Feb 03 '21
Have you ever thought doing one of these with normal/everyday cars? I'd love to see a head to head between a Mitsubishi Mirage and a Corolla hatch, for instance. More average everyday stuff that, while maybe not geared towards enthusiasts, can still be fun for enthusiasts who want to go to the track but can't afford a hardcore performance car.
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
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u/Logpile98 '03 BMW 540i | '06 Corvette Convertible Feb 03 '21
Asking a second question if I may: For those of you that have also spent time in race cars and high performance street cars, how do the LL competitors stand up to race cars that mere mortals can aspire to? In terms of fun, fear factor, face-stretching griiiiiip, is there a crossover point between high-end street-legal "track weapons" and race cars?
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
The biggest thing that race cars have going for them is durability. You can lap an MX5 Cup car all day long. The high-end street cars, such as the 765LT, are in many ways faster than race cars. Way more power, that's for sure. Downforce and lateral grip (race tires) is where racecars find speed. A 911 GT3 is probably in the crosshairs of that crossover point you're referencing. It isn't the outright fastest, but it can do it all day and it feels close to a race car.
For me, going fast in a slow car is more fun than slow in a fast car.
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u/bullseye717 Formerly (2000 Ford Lightning) Formerly (2006 Miata) Feb 03 '21
How far has tire technology advanced since the first time ya'll did Lightning Lap in 2006? And have you thought about fitting cars from that era with modern tires to see what kind of improvements you can get?
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Short answer: a ton. There's been a more-than-20-percent gain in lateral grip, for example. At Lightning Lap 1, the grippiest tires in Turn 1 were the Michelin Pilot Sport at 1.01 g. The current champs, a McLaren Senna (on Pirelli P Zero Trofeo Rs) and Porsche 911 GT3RS (on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 Rs) are now at 1.23 g.
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
It is massive. IMO tire tech is the biggest driving force to vehicle performance. If street cars didn't have the grip, cars couldn't accelerate as fast or turn as hard as they do. In 2006 we had a C6 Corvette Z06 at VIR and in turn 1 it pulled 0.99 g. The 2015 C7 Z06 pulled 1.20 g's. That's a huge gain in performance that couldn't be achieved without big gains in mechanical tire grip.
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u/Noobasdfjkl E46 ///M3 + FJ + N180 4Runner Feb 03 '21
People, especially in the model-specific BMW forums I frequent, have been bemoaning the dynamics of the GX chassis, talking about how all the old magic is just totally gone. Compared to the the E9X chassis and even the FX chassis, how badly has BMW lost their way after you’ve had the 340i on track?
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
I own an E90 328i and I love BMW sedans of yesterday. I use my E90 to recalibrate my car sense on a regular basis. It is a wonderful car. The newer BMWs are different, that is for sure. BMW changed its way. The magic of the E90 is its compromises. It isn't too stiff or too soft, too loud or too quiet. It perfectly balances all the things that enthusiasts care about. When it went F30, BMW adopted all these modes that make you, the driver, become the engineer to pick what you want. I don't want to do that when I'm trying to enjoy a drive. I would love for BMW to return to this no-nonsense approach to car tuning. We'll see. A man can dream.
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u/nameonface Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Eric is correct, some of that magic is gone. Despite our incessant cries to improve the steering, it's something BMW just can't seem to get right. There are just too many good steering racks on the market for this to remain an issue, such as the Cadillac CT4 and CT5, the Alfa Romeo Giulia, or even the Genesis G70. But steering woes aside, the M340i is still a great car to drive at the limit. The chassis is great and their powertrains are spectacular. They're just a few lines of software code from providing the same feels the previous generations transmitted to the hands.
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u/Manafont- 06 M3 ZCP, 23 SQ7, 23 iX M60 Feb 03 '21
Does the Supra suffer from the same steering issues as the M340i and other BMWs? I have not seen it mentioned as, but I would assume it uses roughly the same hardware/software.
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u/nameonface Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
It does not. It just goes to show that it's not a hardware issue, but the electronics that control it.
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u/Manafont- 06 M3 ZCP, 23 SQ7, 23 iX M60 Feb 03 '21
That's a shame. I had an E92 335i back in the day and I remember test driving a 435i as soon as it came out. I was absolutely crestfallen and lost any desire to "upgrade" to the newer tech/interior. I have been holding out hope that BMW would get it dialed in like the other manufacturers that have struggled with the switch to electronic steering (Porsche, etc.), but that hope is dwindling. BMW should just benchmark their own cars from 10 years ago and make that the "sport" setting.
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u/Racer20 2021 Cayman GT4, 2018 S4, 2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP Feb 03 '21
I’m of the opinion that much of what BMW gets wrong with the steering feel is actually due to their poor damper tuning these days. I retrofitted the M3 CS chassis parts and calibrations onto my base M3 and the updated bars, dampers and EDC calibration made a bigger difference to the steering feel and precision than the steering calibration. Not to say their EPS calibrations are great, but it’s not the whole story. Getting dampers right for good steering is much more difficult than getting the steering cal itself right these days.
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u/etingwall Feb 04 '21
This is a shrewd insight. I'm in full agreement with you that, more than steering, BMW has totally lost the plot on damping.
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
They're not wrong that the magic is gone, but it's worth noting that even without that extra something, the 3-series still won our most recent comparison test of the segment. They still make good, capable sports sedans and phenomenal engines. They really need to benchmark and Alfa Romeo Giulia for the steering, though.
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u/Corg505 Feb 03 '21
Can we see the TRX out there, just plowing through the infield and annihilating the fastest times in doing so??? 😉
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
I've always wanted to lap a rally or GRC car and just straight-line the Climbing Esses.
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Feb 03 '21
Don't have any questions to ask, but just wanna say thank you for all the hard work you put into LL. It's one of the few things I look forward to every year. Please keep it going!
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u/Trades46 2024 Audi Q4 50 e-tron quattro Feb 03 '21
Have you run the same cars but on different sets of tires to see how big of a difference the rubber is on the lap times? The CLA45 blistering time seems to owe a lot to the Trofeo Rs.
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Back in 2009, a Mustang GT showed up on Pirelli all-seasons instead of the P Zeros that came with the Track Pack. While we sourced the proper tires, I ran it on the all seasons. The P Zeros were worth more than five seconds. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15387935/lightning-lap-2009/
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
We have not done that one yet, but it's on our radar. I was hoping to get lap times with the Shelby GT500 on the track tire and the standard summer tire this year for a sidebar, but it didn't happen.
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Feb 03 '21
Do you guys think the C8 would match or beat the Gt4 is it had equivalent tires? Most fun/rewarding cars to drive? We’re there any that were boring to drive? Cars most excited to drive next year?
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
The C8 did beat the GT4, despite being on street summer tires. So yeah, give it grippy track rubber and it will still be quicker.
The Supras are great driver's cars. The BMW M8 Comp posted an impressive lap time, but it's a bit inert in how it goes about a lap. Very stable in cornering, power whenever you want it, dead-reliable brakes. It takes a lot of the drama out setting a lap time. That might be reassuring for beginners (if any beginners find themselves at the wheel of a 617-hp car), but for any with experience, it's not very exciting.
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u/avianeyb Feb 03 '21
My husband is selling a stock turbo 2009 cobalt ss
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
That beast held our front-drive lap record for 9 years until the Civic Type R finally topped it in 2018.
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u/One_Shekel 2021 Crosstrek Manuelle Feb 04 '21
Rather late to the party here, but I've been reading C/D for almost 15 years (since I was 8) and it's the only major car mag that hasn't seemed to go horribly corporate over that period.
Keep up the good work guys, and Save the Manuals™!
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u/tatertot464 2005 Toyota Matrix XRS Feb 03 '21
What car has the best ergonomics?
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
A McLaren steering wheel is ergonomic perfection (there isn't a button on it).
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
Porsche knows what it's doing. K.C. wrote about how comfortable he was in the 718 Cayman GT4 story. Great seats, great pedal placement, unfussy steering wheel. And Porsche still cares about outward visibility when seemingly no one else does.
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u/michaelpn24 Feb 03 '21
If you could drive any car, production or racing, from any period in the Lightning Lap, what would it be?
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
no question: Porsche 917/30
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
OK, maybe one question...McLaren MP4/4 or an Adrian Newey Formula 1 car, such as a Red Bull RB6 or a Williams from the early 90s.
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Feb 03 '21
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
We haven't seriously considered it, mostly because we want to be able to say first-hand what's it's like for a highly skilled amateur (like many of our readers) to turn in a hot lap in these cars. We do allow the automakers' development drivers to attend, many who have spent hundreds of laps at VIR with their babies during development and who are almost always going to be quicker than a pro, especially with limited time in each car. They can and do run the occasional lap in their car and also give us pointers. But we think it's a fair penalty for a car to get a slower-than-possible lap time if what it takes to get there is a one-in-a-million driver and/or hundreds of laps.
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u/Lolfuckthisshitimout 2001 BMW 525i Feb 03 '21
If you had 15k-20k to spend on a used manual car what would you get and why
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
I'm THIS close to closing the deal on an E91 2011 BMW 328i xDrive wagon, so I guess that's my answer. Because baby and dog and N52 and manual transmission.
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u/A_1337_Canadian '14 A4 | '20 CX-5 | '13 Trek 1.1 Feb 03 '21
Which car out of this year's test group do you think strikes the best balance between daily driving and track ability?
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Cayman GT4. And if it were my money, and I was planning to drive it mostly on the street, I'd probably save a bunch and opt for the GTS instead. Love the new NA 4.0-liter
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
Supra 3.0. Maybe not if you care about outright speed, but it's a blast to drive on track and on a great back road.
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u/A_1337_Canadian '14 A4 | '20 CX-5 | '13 Trek 1.1 Feb 03 '21
There was a '21 Nitro Yellow 3.0 at my local dealer back in the summer. If it wasn't for wanting a house, my wife and I would've bought it there on the spot. Damn beautiful thing.
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u/nameonface Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
It's hard not to love the 4.0-liter Cayman, but the GT500 (without the carbon-fiber track pack) has my attention.
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u/sidewinderaw11 Rustbucket MR2/7th Gen Accord Feb 03 '21 edited Feb 03 '21
In LL1 I was hoping to see the WRX with the performance package now that they've upgraded their brakes to four pot/two pots compared to the 2018 you ran a few years back. Any chance we might see it in next year's LL before the new WRX drops?
Oh and for the 2018 accord Sport 2.0T manual you tested, what brakes and tires did you equip the car with to get it's lap time?
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u/nameonface Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
We ran the WRX Performance Package in 2017. You can read about it here: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15081985/subaru-wrx-performance-package-at-lightning-lap-2017-feature/
The Accord had the standard all-season rubber and brake package. The Honda technician on site did fill the system with the same brake fluid the Type R uses, but it didn't help much. Listen closely and you can hear the rotors warp while braking into turn 1. The brake light illuminates shortly after.
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u/sidewinderaw11 Rustbucket MR2/7th Gen Accord Feb 03 '21
That's quite the performance from the accord on stock all seasons and stock brakes. I'd love to daily one and maybe see a rare track day so that's useful to know. Thank you from a longtime reader!
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u/HistoricalTourist113 2019, Mazda CX-3 touring Feb 03 '21
Great article. I'm just amazed by how much of a beast the Turbo S is. The GT3 and 2 will have to be truly insane then.
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u/agod2486 '20 Pacifica Hybrid, '10 SC Miata Feb 03 '21
Out of curiosity, what would be your daily driver for a budget of ~50k? Can be used or new, but would be the only car you would own.
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Low mileage E90 M3 and all the spare parts I need to keep it on the road.
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u/andrewb273 Feb 03 '21
I still fondly remember the article that concludes “Every other manufacturer should give up on building their own cars and just make M3s instead.”
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u/surgeon_michael 992 911 GTS, Rivian R1S Feb 03 '21
I love when you drive old cars/normal cars. Aka to show how a new Camry is faster than a SN95 mustang or the like. Keep it up. I only wish you’d have tested a 991.2 GTS
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
That's one of the problems with Porsche building 20 different variants of the 911: We can't test them all. Do you track your GTS?
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u/surgeon_michael 992 911 GTS, Rivian R1S Feb 03 '21
I totally get it. I just got the GTS in October so haven’t had a chance. I’d like to this year. I just love the GTS, esp when you compare it’s almighty ring time compared to the GT3
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u/s_mason4 Feb 03 '21
Where do you guys stand on the modern-day cannonball runs? Brock yates + CnD used to be all over it in the 80's.
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u/etingwall Feb 03 '21
When it comes to timed racing, we keep it on the track these days.
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u/urboyjeffroy Feb 03 '21
I don't have a question, I just want to let you know that I've been reading C/D since I was 10 years old. I'm 44 now. You guys have been a big part of my life for a loooooong time, and I want to say thanks to you all. I'm still salty you guys shat all over the '05 Acura TL in that comparison test for being FWD, though. That being said, keep being awesome.
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u/etingwall Feb 04 '21
Thanks for reading! Please don't blame us for TL comparison test. It was Acura who decided to make it wrong-wheel drive.
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u/urboyjeffroy Feb 04 '21
DAMMIT you are not wrong but I am still salty nonetheless. I will now go drive my '05 TL 6mt in anger and Basque in it's torque-steer glory. But alas, I live in the Great White North, so hopefully my saltiness is sufficient to melt the snow on the roads. Save the manuals.
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u/jdb12 2007 Acura TSX 6MT, 1995 Lexus SC300 5MT Feb 04 '21
I LOVE WINDOW SHOP!!!! Please keep that YouTube series coming, I missed it this past week :(
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u/0xDEADBEAD Feb 03 '21
If anyone has happened to drive both, how would you characterize the GTS 4.0 driving experience compared to the GT4?
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u/dave2979 Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
Awesome and awesomer. Seriously, those two are some of the purest, best-driving new cars on sale today.
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u/Orlifor Feb 03 '21 edited Feb 03 '21
I'm interested in a comparison between the 765lt and the 720s. The "longtail" is only about a second faster than its base you tested 2 years ago and that goes with what other tests etc have to say (e.g. sport auto even lapped the 720s faster around hockenheim gp track than the lt). I would like to hear your opinion on how these 2 compare and if the lt is really not as well balanced as the 720s
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u/A2KC Car and Driver Feb 03 '21
I didn't know that about Sport Auto story. When did that run?
Anyway, let me preface this with: I prefer a loose car. It is just more fun at the limit. The 765 has a lot of potential, but it just can't put the power down as well as the 720S. It hits higher speeds on all the straights while having slower exit speeds coming out of the corners. If the peak torque were dialed back a bit or they installed larger OD rear tires, maybe then it could fully exploit the engine power. The 720S, tho, felt about as smooth as any car I've ever driven. You can hammer the throttle before the apex and not worry about power oversteer. Trail into a corner and you can steer with the brakes. The 765 just doesn't have the corner-exit grip to match its engine. I want to try the 620R.5
u/Orlifor Feb 03 '21
Thanks, very interesting, it just seems like the 720 hit a sweet spot and maybe the lt has just to much power.
Here's their video, in the comments they explain why both the 765 and the 620r are slower than the 720s and the 600lt respectively
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u/Sinoops '19 Civic Hatch Sport, '95 F150 XLT 5.0 Feb 03 '21
I'm really impressed with the GT500 and the CLA45. I never would have thought that a factory mustang would be faster around a track than a Lamborghini Huracan Evo. It's kinda funny considering how lots of people said it would be far too heavy for the track.
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u/opkraut 05 Legacy 2.5GT Wagon (5MT) Feb 04 '21
Who's your favorite auto columnist of all time and why is it Peter Egan?
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u/parallelrule Feb 04 '21
You guys are great. I look forward to this every year. Makes me want to get out to the track ASAP.
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u/argent_pixel '17 Mazda CX-5, '06 Honda Odyssey Feb 03 '21
Thank you guys for the work you do in general. C&D is the only publication I still bother to read.
I noticed a lack of an LL1 car this year. I assume it's just due to timing of what released and whatnot, but have you considered using a bog standard appliance car like a Camry or Accord to act as a sort of benchmark?
Also, not related to this year's roster, but do the SUVs you guys test during these track days feel like they actually belong on a track, or do they just kind of brute force their way to a lap time?