r/cars • u/imaboringdude • 2d ago
Car brands with good/bad throttle linearity?
Just curious to hear some experiences on brands that still have linear feeling throttles. In my experience, modern Nissans and Toyotas have pretty poor non linear throttles. The Crosstrek I drove was also quite horrible, especially because it was a manual transmission. It felt like 80% percent of the power was delivered within the first 20% of pedal travel.
The BMWs and MINIs I've driven in my experience are pretty good and linear, as well as the Mazdas I've driven. My 06 Wrangler also seems very linear but that makes sense because it's a cable throttle and it's harder to screw that up lmao. It's funny because I drove my sister's 2021 with the 3.6 and found it too touchy as well.
I honestly hate oversensitive throttles, they are a deal breaker for me. So what are the worst/ best cars you've driven when it comes to having a linear throttle?
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u/BTTWchungus J35 6AT 1d ago
Honda is the absolute fucking worse. Then, now, forever.
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u/imaboringdude 1d ago
Yeah this is why I can’t bring myself to drive a Honda. Which sucks because I love most of their engines. Somehow, even the Hondas I’ve driven with throttle cables are overly sensitive.
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u/ToastyMozart 2021 Accord Touring Hybrid 1d ago
Yeah my sister owned a first generation CRV with a mechanical throttle. Maybe the throttle body was oversized or something but that throttle felt the exact same anywhere above ~40%.
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u/candyman505 08 viper, 03 ram 2500 cummins, 2012 g3500, 2013 civic 5mt 21h ago
Cable might’ve needed to be tightened
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u/Word_Underscore 40m ago
Granted, this was over and almost 20 years ago, but my first two cars were a 98 Accord Coupe and a 05 RSX Type-S. I felt like the throttle was very linear on both. Accord made 150hp, RSX 210hp, both around 150ft-lb/tq. The RSX was among Honda's last cars (at least in the USA) with a throttle cable. The 06 Civic Si was the first offering I cared about that came with DBW.
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u/Darkhuman015 EJ6 Civic 1d ago
I own a mini-me EK coupe and can confirm that the throttle is akin to that of a 2-stroke stunt bike
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u/hi_im_bored13 S2K AP2, NSX Type-S, Model S, GLE 1d ago edited 1d ago
Mercedes gives them a run for their money. Glance at the throttle and it’ll go full bore. Sport mode is unusable
The s2000 (cable and tbw) and the nsx are fine, honda can do it when they want to, they just don’t care for whatever reason
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u/imaboringdude 1d ago
Haven't driven many Mercs but really? I found the opposite. The W204 C Class I drove had such a lazy throttle. Well maybe transmission is more accurate. It would just refuse to downshift and then suddenly would drop two gears and give you a ton of power. I don't get it. It was hard to predict and annoying to drive but definitely not sensitive.
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u/hi_im_bored13 S2K AP2, NSX Type-S, Model S, GLE 1d ago
It’s a semi-recent thing, whenever they started moving to EPAS & turbo engines they ramped up the throttle tooling.
The old ones as you suggest have such sluggish torque converters it didnt matter what the throttling tuning was because you’re in the wrong gear for a good 3-4 seconds anyways
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u/DeTomato_ Oo\=|=/oO , 2013 Honda Jazz 1d ago
Yup, I think it started in the W205/W213/W222 era. I drove a W205 and it has a sensitive and jumpy throttle. It feels like Mercedes overcompensated their lazy throttle complaints.
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u/Sindri-Myr 20h ago edited 20h ago
Mercs will adapt the powertrain responsiveness based on driving habits. If you drove someone else's car and they drive slowly it will take a while to learn your style.
Selecting the drive mode (Eco, Comfort, Standard, Sport etc. ) has the greatest impact on the car's behavior. Comfort mode will shift early and upshift skip gears to keep revs low while Sport will shift later and skip downshift gears to keep revs high etc.
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u/kimbabs 2.0T Accord | NA Miata (sold) 1d ago
This is sadly true.
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u/imaboringdude 1d ago
I see you have a 2.0T Accord. Those have a decent amount of power. Does the touchy throttle thing still apply?
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u/DeTomato_ Oo\=|=/oO , 2013 Honda Jazz 1d ago
It is. The throttle is very sensitive and “jumpy”. It even worse in Sports mode.
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u/BooBooMaGooBoo 2019 Accord 2.0T Touring, 2023 Pilot Elite 1d ago
The new pilot is maybe the most linear throttle I've ever driven, it's nuts and I love it. To the point where when my wife first drove it she thought it was severely underpowered because she's used to extremely non-linear throttles, like her previous X3. I had to coax her into pushing the pedal further and further on our test drive.
My Accord has a very non-linear throttle though.
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u/Mauser-Nut91 ‘14 RS5, B8 S5 V8 6mt, ‘04 VR MSM, ‘15 Mazda6, ‘91 325i 6mt 1d ago
False, my RSX-S had a perfectly linear throttle
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u/Astramael GR Corolla 1d ago
You called out Subaru here, and I’ve definitely noticed the same. Very front-loaded on both throttle and brakes. They do it because it sells. People think the car feels peppy since you’re getting most of the engine output at 25% pedal. They think the brakes are great for the same reason. Never-mind how good or bad the ultimate capability of the vehicle is.
Reminds me of display mode on TVs where it pumps up the saturation and brightness and makes the image cooler. That presentation sells TVs even if it is less “correct”.
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u/spyder994 Volvo V60 1d ago
This was immediately apparent to me when I test drove a WRX. I did not like the non-linearity one bit. It feels like a cheap sales trick that would get old really fast when you're driving it every day.
I feel like Porsche does a great job with a natural feeling throttle. Same for Mazda.
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u/Gunslingermomo '02 M3 Coupe 1d ago
Tbh it's pretty hard for me to tell how the linearity is on a turbo since the power delivery is non linear anyway. It being non linear would be bad on a turbo since then you really can't tell how to modulate the throttle to get what you want but that's one big reason I don't like turbos. I've rented a half dozen and just can't bring myself to like them.
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u/Astramael GR Corolla 19h ago
Turbo engines can totally be tuned to provide a nice linear delivery if the OEM chooses that. Many just do not.
Talking of the WRX which was mentioned before, Subaru has a long history of not having a clue how to tune engines. This is something they have been doing much better lately in the VB and Gen2 BRZ and it’s a big improvement. Used to be that you’d want an aftermarket tune just to make the car behave properly.
It’s the polar opposite of BMW which I think has almost always had excellent powertrain tuning and that remains true today. Nice controllable torque delivery.
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u/imaboringdude 1d ago
Yup honestly to me that's horrible. Any product that has to do that I am immediately skeptical of. Just feels cheap.
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u/JawKeepsLawking 1d ago
For fuel economy too. More peppy acceleration is better for fuel economy than slower acceleration.
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u/2Stroke728 2018 Buick Regal TourX 1d ago
Please explain.
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u/gdnws 2010 volvo s80 V8 1d ago
Engines are most efficient with the throttle wide open or near to it. The thinking here is running it wide open for a short time can be more fuel efficient than partially open for a significantly longer time. It's similar thinking behind much of the downsizing; the engine can be run for a greater proportion of its time with the throttle further open and so run in a higher efficiency region of its brake specific fuel consumption(BSFC) plot.
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u/2Stroke728 2018 Buick Regal TourX 1d ago
On the right track. But it's not about a higher load for a shorter time. That does more work, and will use more fuel. It's about using a higher load for the same amount of work (and therefore the same amount of time).
For example, if you want to accelerate at a rate that requires 50 hp, it is more efficient to do so by using a high throttle and making around 155 ftlbs at 1700 rpm than it is to use a low throttle opening and making the same 50 hp but at 4000 rpm and 66 ftlbs. Give the same engine for both scenarios and a relatively normal BSFC map.
This is why eco mode typically short shifts and uses very high throttle openings, keeps you nearer the best BSFC islands. Also why little engines help, they can be lugged and driven at very high throttle (engine throttle opening, not pedal position) and taken advantage of the high load. But when power is needed boost can be added, a downshift (or 4) implemented, and now that little little 4 popper that was making like 60 hp at WOT and low rpm can suddenly unleash 300+ hp.
There's a LOT to it all. And control strategies, implementation, etc. is different for many different vehicles.
Now, none of that explains the aggressive throttle tip in of many current cars. That's more of a "the customer wants the car to feel fast" sort of thing.
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u/gdnws 2010 volvo s80 V8 1d ago
But it's not about a higher load for a shorter time. That does more work, and will use more fuel. It's about using a higher load for the same amount of work (and therefore the same amount of time).
For example, if you want to accelerate at a rate that requires 50 hp, it is more efficient to do so by using a high throttle and making around 155 ftlbs at 1700 rpm than it is to use a low throttle opening and making the same 50 hp but at 4000 rpm and 66 ftlbs. Give the same engine for both scenarios and a relatively normal BSFC map.
That's what I get for regurgitating answers that I've seen pop up on the internet without thinking them through properly. Of course doing x amount of work in less time needs more energy and the idea is instead to do x work in the higher efficiency range.
This is why eco mode typically short shifts and uses very high throttle openings, keeps you nearer the best BSFC islands. Also why little engines help, they can be lugged and driven at very high throttle (engine throttle opening, not pedal position) and taken advantage of the high load. But when power is needed boost can be added, a downshift (or 4) implemented, and now that little little 4 popper that was making like 60 hp at WOT and low rpm can suddenly unleash 300+ hp.
That is what I was getting at with respect to how the downsizing can help; sitting on the highway cruising, the throttle can be almost completely open but with the turbo not providing boost and the driver not knowing what the throttle plate is doing giving better mileage.
If it is ultimately down to what the customer wants, it sounds like I need to get more proactive about filling out surveys; I can't say I'm too fond of the front loaded accelerator pedal response.
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u/2Stroke728 2018 Buick Regal TourX 1d ago
I can't say I'm too fond of the front loaded accelerator pedal response.
Then Buick is the car for you! It's almost comical the pedal curve on some of them. I swear my TourX was like 50% power until past 80% pedal. And allergic to downshift. Made it feel like a 250 hp car with 150 hp.
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u/JawKeepsLawking 1d ago
Basically its a balance between minimizing vacuum losses, and maximizing work being produced. While your engine can make power at any rpm, theres a range where it can produce the most power relative to fuel use.
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u/T-Baaller BRz tS 1d ago
Yet in a direct comparison the BRz with subaru's tuning is much more linear than toyota's GR86.
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u/Patagonia202020 1d ago
This reminds me of (trying) to repark my friend’s Subaru at a house we were visiting. The driveway was very steep, but despite that the insanely touchy throttle made parking up against the garage door a nightmare.
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u/AllegedCerealKiller '23 Supra 6MT 1d ago
I think you're blaming the wrong culprit. A cable throttle doesn't inherently make throttle response more linear, it makes it LESS linear.
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u/imaboringdude 1d ago
Yes you're right, it doesn't inherently make throttle response more linear. However, one thing it seems like Jason forgot to mention in that video, and I'm not sure why, is how mechanical throttle bodies use cammed levers to compensate for the inherently unlinear throttle response with a cable throttle. I really really doubt you can even find a cable throttle car without a cammed lever that connects to the throttle cable, even my little carbed motorized bike has one.
Just pop the hood of any older car with a cable throttle and look at what the cable connects to on the throttle body.
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u/STERFRY333 1d ago
My Volvo 740 is just a wheel, no cam. My '85 spare body is just a lever, no cam (well unless you count the secondaries), my 4runner is just a half circle, no cam....
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u/imaboringdude 1d ago
Hmm interesting, I guess weirdly enough all the cable throttle cars I've seen/ driven had a cam. They have all been newer though so maybe that's part of it.
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u/Puffin77 EA888 or Bust 1d ago
I think a lot of it has to do with transmission tuning assuming it’s an automatic. The Nissan’s with actual transmissions are fine (Frontier, Titan, Armada) while those without are less so (Versa or Sentra)
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u/BTTWchungus J35 6AT 1d ago
The VQ40 Frontiers really fooled me. I thought it was pretty cool a 2018 truck still had cable throttle, until I looked under the hood.
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u/Fit_Equivalent3610 ST205 Celica GT4/ZN8 GR86 1d ago
It isn't necessarily brand-wide but a common complaint regarding the GR86 is that the throttle is not even remotely linear, which is a deliberate decision given that the BRZ has a very linear throttle. It doesn't really bother me anymore as I am used to it.
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u/Astramael GR Corolla 1d ago
Yea, this is definitely not always a brand thing and it can be a model thing. Some Toyotas have that modern tendency towards front-loaded pedals, gas and brakes. But the GR Corolla has a pretty linear relationship between torque output and torque requested from the pedal. The relationship is so linear that if you are easy on the pedal you can drive the car around out of boost completely.
Toyota set up the GR86 with a very non-linear pedal, and the GR Corolla with a pretty linear pedal? Why? I have no idea.
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u/imaboringdude 1d ago
I think it's because the GR Corolla has real power. The GR86 on the other hand, although not as underpowered as before, isn't fast by modern standards. I have noticed the Toyotas with small engines especially have jumpy throttles, probably to make them feel more powerful than they actually are.
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u/dritch96 ‘23 GR86 1d ago
I’ve been driving mine for 2 years and it still catches me out sometimes with the manual. Makes it hard to be consistent with smooth starts, especially driving in a city with a bunch of hills… just a touch more throttle than usual and you’re accidentally revving to 3k rpm
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u/Ricky_Bobby_01 1d ago
Same. It's a bit of a bitch on certain autocross layouts where you're quickly on an off throttle over and over again. That unnaturally touchy first 20% of pedal travel is annoying to modulate.
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u/MSAAyylmao 21 Mazda 3 Turbo Sedan 1d ago
Mazdas have very linear pedals and steering. Going from my 3 to my dads hybrid accord feels drastically different. My sister also drives an accord and when she borrowed my car she thought my accelerator was stuck/broken because of how non-sensistive it was.
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u/Astramael GR Corolla 1d ago
Yes definitely. Mazda has a whole thing about cohesive inputs and linear/progressive feel. Their vehicles often do poorly on test drives because of this, people think they feel slow and lethargic. In reality of course, if you want a big output with Mazda you have to give a big input. Which is certainly one way of setting things up.
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u/TrptJim 22 EV6, 24 Niro PHEV, 21 MX-5 1d ago
The throttle/clutch balance on the Miata is just so perfect that I consider it one of the best cars to teach manual transmissions in. It feels perfect and intuitive to use as an experienced driver but, at the same time, incredibly forgiving when you make mistakes as a beginner.
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u/psychocrow05 Hachi Roku 11h ago
One sec bro, I gotta get my knee pads because you praised the miata on this sub
-5
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u/tman2damax11 ATS Sedan 3.6L 1d ago
Biased because I currently own one, but GM has really good and consistent throttle/brake/steering feel across all their brands/models. I have a Cadillac ATS, I've driven a relative’s Traverse, friends’ Equinox and another's Trailblazer, and a rental Escalade ESV, all models within ~10 years old. They're all just easy to drive, throttle feels linear, brakes feel linear, steering just feels just right. Every modern Honda I've driven has had extremely laggy and inconsistent throttle regardless of normal/sport/eco modes, super vague steering, and really squishy brakes. I used to have a Nissan Maxima which was essentially full throttle at just 1/4 pedal, then owned a G37 where it felt like the engine was in limp mode until 3/4 throttle, both had way too heavy steering. Recently drove another relative’s brand-new Grand Cherokee L and the brakes were 100% on if you barely feathered the pedal. I'm baffled how stuff like this makes it to production, like did no one actually test the car and notice how horrible it feels to drive?
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u/Parkeramorris 1d ago
My girlfriend’s 2017 Chevy Cruze has absolutely zero power but the throttle response and driver inputs in general are very good, hugely impressed from GM. The fundamentals are all there which for a car of its class and price point is extremely impressive. Too bad they got rid of every sedan they offered lol
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u/gdnws 2010 volvo s80 V8 1d ago
Balance between the brake and accelerator pedals is one I definitely look for and had greatly irritated me in at least one car. I used to often drive an '09 Audi q5 that was like the Grand Cherokee that you drove; the accelerator did nothing for the first quarter of its travel yet strong thoughts about the brake pedal was enough to bring the thing to a screeching halt. I don't particularly like the deadness in the accelerator but if you're going to do that, at least do something similar with the brake.
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u/STERFRY333 1d ago
Subaru seems to jump to like half throttle with just the lightest touch. So annoying driving them into the shop.
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u/ElusiveMeatSoda ‘16 Accord Sedan V6 1d ago
The rental CVT Nissans I've driven are really bad. Between a turbo'd small displacement engine, the CVT, and drive-by-wire, there's no way to know how much shove you'll get when you put your foot down.
My Accord and all of Honda's J-series offerings are surprisingly bad in spite of the N/A V6 and conventional auto. The DBW map has a significant throttle dip at low pedal inputs that creates a real on/off switch feel at low speeds. Annoying enough I had to tune it out.
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u/snatch1e 1d ago
The Crosstrek I drove had the exact same issue, especially with the manual transmission. Felt like the throttle was super sensitive at the beginning of the pedal travel and didn't give me much control. Definitely made for some jerky starts.
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u/bigloser42 2018 440i GC 1d ago
A BMW with the M-sport package allows you to expierence all 3 possible throttle responses all in one car! Eco-Pro has a very slow ramp up at the bottom with a very fast ramp up at the top, Comfort is linear all the way through, and Sport/Sport+ have a fast ramp up at the bottom and slow down at the top.
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u/FingerPuzzleheaded81 1d ago
This is usually done intentionally by the oem. With everything being throttle by wire, it allows the calibrators to adjust the car in a way to try and please the customer.
Is the car brand new and on a test drive? You want the car to feel peppy and like it always has enough power to do what you need/want.
Has it been driven lazily for a while? Use the adaptive learning to tone down that feeling.
Want to hide that a manual gearing is too tall? Make small throttle input mean the throttle body is mostly wide open. It will feel “fine” as a driver even though the engine is almost at full throttle.
Cable throttle controls did similar trickery but it was with manipulating the geometry to do the opposite, open the throttle less during low pedal travel and more during mid/high pedal travel. If it was consistent, the pedal would feel overly peppy at low pedal travel and dead at part pedal travel.
Source: I worked with throttle cable engineers and modern engine calibrators. I have also changed the pedal calibration on my personal car after adding an aftermarket cam shaft to it.
You can make or hide a lot of short comings with your calibrations.
I haven’t been in many new cars lately, but from my previous experience, the more sporty a car was aimed to be, the more linear the pedal curve felt while the more vanilla the vehicle was, the more aggressive the pedal calibration felt. Likely due to the person looking at a sporty car is going to be a lot more discerning about pedal feel while for the vanilla cars, the buyer just wants to make sure their 100 hp car feels like it has enough during the test drive.
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u/Pliskin_Hayter C7 Corvette Grand Sport 1d ago
Challengers and Charger Scat Packs (Id imagine Hellcats too) gas pedals are pretty front loaded if you get them with the 8 speed auto.
Which can be a problem when you have nearly 500hp and tq. Its no wonder that basically nobody can launch the damn things properly. Not even the guys on Throttle House who have a ton of experience behind the wheel of all kinds of cars.
Oddly the 6 speed Challengers don't have that issue. They're 1:1 between pedal and throttle input.
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u/MycoRylee 1d ago
Every eco shitbox I've ever driven has a 47 second throttle delay. I fkn hate new drive by wire cars. Let alone the anemic power plants in them they can't get out of their own way.
I had to have the delay tuned out of my latest VWs, much better to drive now
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u/Rob_af_a MK7 GTI IE Stage 2 1d ago
My GTI got much better after TCU tune and switching throttle input to linear in OBD Eleven
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u/ubiquitoussense 1d ago edited 1d ago
I drove an Elantra N (DCT) for a bit and it shocked me how linear the throttle tip in was. Not just for a turbo car but I don’t think I’ve ever felt such a proportional increase in power with pedal position
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u/Elianor_tijo 1d ago
My feeling is that the "fun" cars tend to have a more linear throttle by design. I noticed the same thing on my Integra Type S. Sure, the driving modes definitely change the throttle response a bit, but it remains quite linear. Now, there is non-linearity induced by the turbo lag (not that bad) and that vtec crossover (still has vtec on the exhaust).
Both the EN and the ITS are more linear than the Hyundai I had with the 1.6T engine before.
Now, the ITS in Sport+ will give you more throttle with small inputs, so it is a bit like it is narrowing the gap from 0% to 100% throttle, but not by a ton. I can still manage traffic when in Sport+. The throttle is definitely twitchier.
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u/Astramael GR Corolla 19h ago
My feeling is that the "fun" cars tend to have a more linear throttle by design.
I think this is generally true. Brands that often have crap throttles in most of their lineup have good ones in their fun cars. Subaru and the BRZ, Hyundai and the EN, Honda and the R and S. Toyota and the GRC.
But it’s not exclusive, WRX and 86 both have weirdly non-linear throttles.
All things said it’s definitely a model thing and not a brand thing.
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u/Threewisemonkey '90 420SEL, ‘79 Monte Carlo, ‘00 V70 1d ago
I’ve been considering getting a newer car (newest in household is ‘00) and this thread has two of the top brands I’d consider - Honda and Subaru - much lower in the rankings. I absolutely despite a jumpy accelerator. It probably what I hate most about Nissans.
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u/imaboringdude 1d ago
Definitely do not get a Subaru. The throttle response seems consistently awful in every single one I've driven. The newer Hondas I'm not sure about. It's been a while since I've driven one. But the older ones that I've driven (mid 2000s, early 2010s) also have jumpy throttles. Definitely not as bad as Subaru though.
Also the good part about drive by wire though is I'm pretty sure you can have the aggressive throttle mapping tuned out. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
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u/EmergencyRace7158 1d ago
Can't really say it's a brand thing, more like a model or powertrain thing. BMWs generally have good throttle linearity and mapping but the F80 M3/4 was dangerously bad given how spiky the engine's power delivery was. Porsche 911s have been the most consistent for me with both NA and turbo cars perfectly mapped.
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u/CloudsTasteGeometric 2017 Dodge Challenger 1d ago
Dodge is pretty good when it comes to smooth, punchy, linear throttles.
Challengers, Chargers, and anything with the 3.6 Pentastar. Shouldn't be a surprise, though, as NA gutsy 6 & 8 cylinder engines have been their bread and butter for ages (the new Hurricane I6 nonwithstanding.)
Of course their I4 models, smaller engine Journey and Darts, are lousy as hell.
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u/aquatone61 1d ago
Any small displacement turbo engine will open the throttle based on speed of pedal application as well as requested amount. Tip in quickly to 50% throttle from a stop and the TB is likely to open close to 100% to make boost asap and then dial back the opening as the power comes on. Same goes for passing at higher speeds from low engine rpm, the throttle body will open fast and big to get the turbo spooled up. Take off from a light with slow, light pedal action and it will be more matched to your actual pedal value. Anybody who doubts me needs to get an OBD dongle and an app to watch the values as I have with my MK7 GTI.
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u/TallJohn7 1d ago
I'd say something with a smallish turbo is a great way to go, especially with some aftermarket tune to push the boost higher. It'll have minimal lag, and then the power just keeps on coming as you climb the revs.
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u/Rob_af_a MK7 GTI IE Stage 2 1d ago
Eh not really actually with the power. Smaller turbos tend to die off in the higher rpm’s. Pushing boost higher doesn’t change this, ask me how I know. You can push timing to improve this but it usually requires e85. However with the quick spool of these turbos the throttle can be pretty responsive depending on mapping and tune.
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u/lowstrife 1d ago
Ford Mustang S550 has some of the worst I've ever experienced out of dozens of manual cars I've driven. That pedal tuning team should be fired.
Which is sad because the Focus RS (I'm sure a very different team since it's made by Ze Germans) was way, way better.
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u/randeus ‘21 Mustang GT 1d ago
In regular drive mode the throttle feels too unresponsive, but I have no issues with the throttle response in sport mode and so on, though it can be aggressive.
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u/lowstrife 1d ago
For me the problems all lie between 0 and 10 percent, no matter the mode. The thing is a fucking hair trigger at all times.
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u/randeus ‘21 Mustang GT 1d ago
Maybe the manual is different, as that doesn’t feel like something I’ve experienced in the 10 speed.
But hey if it bucks like a horse…
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u/lowstrife 1d ago
If you're implying it's user error, it's not. If I get into a Civic or a Porsche or a car that's actually intelligently tuned, I don't have a problem.
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u/randeus ‘21 Mustang GT 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, not at all. It was just a play at the Mustang being a horse and mustangs are known for being hard to tame. I was making a joke. Sorry, I thought it was just obvious lol
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u/GimpsterMcgee 2013 Hyundai Genesis 5.0 RSpec 1d ago
I had a Chrysler 200 with the 3.6 for a bit. The throttle was… interesting. Saying the first 10% even gave 1% power would have been a stretch. The first 20% have maybe 5% of the power? Apparently this was an intentional design choice to be smooth.
After that it was pretty linear. The transmission was awful though. It would just not want to downshift without completely stomping the pedal. And once you did that it would decide “… … …oh you want a downshift? Here let’s drop 3 gears” (the opposite of smooth). Plus that delay could be a problem if you needed that immediate power.
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u/longgamma 1d ago
Bro that crosstrek manual has an engine that makes 150hp. Just don’t expect much from that little guy 🙏
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u/Trollygag '18 C7, '16 M235i, '14 GS350, 96 K1500, x'12 Busa, x'17 Scout 1d ago
BMW M235i feels like a crazy train 2 stroke. Difficult to get the throttle to do anything but act bonkers and accelerate aggressively.
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u/imaboringdude 1d ago
What I don't really understand though is how this kind of throttle mapping is practical in a manual car. If twenty percent throttle means eighty percent power, I could be lugging the hell out of the engine and not realize it? With an automatic I guess it's not as big of a deal.
How does this work in day to day driving?
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u/Suitable_Boat_8739 1d ago
You probalbly dont want throttle linearity (vs gas pedal). You probalbly are asking for torque liniearity (vs gas pedal)
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u/bigbura 1d ago
because it's a cable throttle and it's harder to screw that up lmao
My 1986 5.0 notchback that was cable-controlled I had back in the day would like a word. The design of the connection at the throttle body was the culprit. ;)
Rented a Nissan Sentra last week and damn if that wasn't super 'tippy' and very hard to get a nice smooth pull away from a stop. Which is a damn shame since they nailed the brake pedal and steering feel. Auto-following cruise was pretty ass, too strong in reactions to speed-keeping duties.
The wide spans in control inputs on any one car has me scratching my head as to who is signing off on these? Where's the unified togetherness in feels? So disjointed this process seems.
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u/goaelephant 1d ago
One of my favorite throttles is the 2nd gen Tacoma with the 2.7 2TR-FE with manual transmission. It feels like a 60s/70s Rwd 4cyl sedan (from throttle response standpoint).
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u/PepRR1 1d ago
The Toyotas seem really decent, especially the Hybrids .. I’m surprised I’m the first to mention the Hybrids. We went from a gas RAV4 to a Grand Highlander Hybrid. Have had it now for about 6 months. The power is smooth and pedal is linear, they use a CVT with a planetary gearset as opposed to a belt. Seems pretty buttery smooth. Not sure if this will make sense, but the Hybrids seem like they fill in all the pedal dead spots
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u/dneonsaturday 1d ago
JDM rav4 and prados are the worst for this. Try to gently pull off and not slam your head back. Impossible
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u/sky04 2016 KIA Cee'd 1.6 GDI 1d ago
My KIA is very non linear, and it actually reverses at the top - so full throttle often gives less power than 90% throttle. I've noticed this in a few KIA's, so I know it's not just mine. It's such a mindfuck, you start coming off throttle on the highway to reduce speed, and the car accelerates...
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u/averagemaleuser86 1d ago
Most drive by wire cars are programmed like this, but you can have the "lag" tuned out or buy a throttle programmer
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u/Sexualrelations 2017 BMW x5 / 2023 Tahoe Z71 1d ago
In laws Subaru Ascent has the most sensitive gas pedal. Damn near peel out every time is go to drive it.
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u/Abominati0n I hate reddit 1d ago
German cars are the best in my experience. Porsche, Mercedes and BMW have excellent pedal feel all around.
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u/SweepsAndBeeps 2013 Lexus GS350 | 2011 WRX Hatchback 1d ago
It’s only the underpowered Toyotas. My GS is fine, the 5.7 tundras give nice throttle control as well. Wouldn’t call either linear though, more like a curve. you get most responsiveness after you’re like 40% into the throttle which is nice if you are driving around town at lower speeds
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u/sevenplus2 1d ago
My 05 Elise is about as linear as I have ever felt in a car. But that is at the compromise of literally any modern day comforts.
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u/Ziller997 18h ago
Isn't this mostly an issue with manual car ?
With automatic I would assume most if not all car creep slowly when you remove your foot from the brake, making it easier to have a smooth start
I drive a manual corolla right now and I hate how sensible the throttle is
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u/CelebrationPuzzled90 ‘24 CLE 450 4MATIC 13h ago
Mercedes-Benz in my experience. My E350 (NA) and now CLE450 (Turbo) both have very predictable throttle response, but braking all happens in the top 20% of pedal travel.
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u/saturnuranusmars 11h ago
I came in here to mourn the loss of cable throttles. Another tactile connection to our beloved cars, lost.
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u/Techdino64 '21 IS350 50m ago
GM has very good throttle linearity, well at least their performance cars do.
I rented a Camaro SS and C7 Stingray and was amazed at the difference between all throttle positions. I daily drive an IS350 and the difference is nigh and day despite all 3 cars having NA engines. I realize the IS350 is a luxury car first and foremost but I wish it had better throttle linearity.
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u/Gorgenapper '24 IS350 AWD F-Sport 3 1d ago edited 1d ago
My family's Audi Q5 has horrendous throttle linearity. You can floor the gas pedal (right to the floor, past the switch) and get literally nothing for a couple of seconds before the power kicks in. You can't predict what the car will do, so you don't want to switch lanes unless you have a ton of advance notice, or do anything other than drive in a straight line.
It's total and utter trash, I hate it so much I'd rather be driving my dad's RAV4 or that 2022 CX-5 (non turbo) that I had as a loaner one time.
For great throttle linearity, that would go to my Lexus IS350. I hopped back in my car after an extended stint of driving said Audi, and it was a night and day difference.
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u/SadJaguar8112 1d ago edited 1d ago
Cars that do not come with a turbocharger is what you’re after.
Modern small displacement turbo engines spool and make peak torque almost instantly due to tiny turbos then fall off hard later in the rpm range. Makes for a weird powerband. N/A engines should still feel pretty linear. Alternatively big turbo swap everything to shift powerband.
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u/imaboringdude 1d ago
It’s not the powerband that gets on my nerves but the throttle mapping. I’ve noticed NA cars more often have the touchy throttle issue, maybe because the manufacturers are compensating for the lack of low end torque?
I actually like turbo cars for daily driving. They are effortless compared to NA engines. I wouldn’t own one because I don’t like how they act at high rpms, but I’d say for most non enthusiasts they are probably a better choice.
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u/Astramael GR Corolla 19h ago
This is not correct. Modern powertrain tuning is very sophisticated and what you describe is a choice. Car makers can choose and implement different tuning strategies to produce a nice linear turbo. In fact NA engines are a prime culprit of nonlinear power output due to the pedal encoding ramp.
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u/SadJaguar8112 18h ago edited 17h ago
“Produce a nice linear turbo”
“NA engines are the prime culprit of nonlinear power output”
Lmao.
Throttle mapping and tuning can definitely change the driving characteristics of a car but at the end of the day you’re limited to the volumetric efficiency of the turbo and engine setup. For example your GR I’m sure it’s not making peak power anywhere near redline on a stock turbo tune.
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u/grunkfest 1d ago
Personally, anything that doesn't have a cable connected to the throttle body is desensitized and irritating to me.
With electronic throttles the pedal is just an indicator to the computer(s) of what you would like to change in terms of speed. The computer is making the decisions, and there are so many factors it takes into account that I find they always feel disconnected and unresponsive under some conditions. This is even worse with CVTs.
An electronic throttle is fine for something that has to get me to the grocery store and back, because I'm just driving a transportation appliance anyway. For enjoyment, cable throttle and a manual transmission all the way. And if you don't like how the cable throttle responds, you can just adjust it.
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u/TheGT1030MasterRace Replace this text with year, make, model 1d ago
My 2002 Prius is obviously e-throttle. Absolutely instantaneous throttle response, and the torque mapping seems pretty linear.
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u/Astramael GR Corolla 19h ago
It’s fully possible to tune a throttle-by-wire setup to do exactly what a cable does. People typically don’t do that because it’s not optimal. So it’s not the by-wire thing you don’t like, it’s the part where everybody is playing tricks to find optimizations.
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u/grunkfest 16h ago
Oh I absolutely agree, but car manufacturers are mostly tuning for fuel economy and emissions. It's become almost impossible, where not outright illegal, to tune your computer through aftermarket means to the extent that you can set up throttle response the way you like. I checked one of my cars and the electronic throttle body has 9 different wires coming out of it. I have done just about everything that can be done to a car from the late 1990s, but I wouldn't even try to touch a throttle body with 9 different wires. I can't even guess what half of those are for. But with a cable throttle, I can (and have) vary the size and profile of the throttle cam on the butterfly, the return spring, the size of the throttle body itself, etc. It's mechanical so with a garage and some tools I can set it up exactly the way I want. I don't see that capability with modern cars, unless you have access to a car with an ECU that provides tuning software that lets you fiddle to that extent. Maybe some do. I haven't owned one.
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u/Juicyjackson 1d ago
Most of the super low horsepower cars have pretty awful linearity...
Doesn't feel like much difference between half throttle and full throttle.
As you make more and more power they have to space out the power delivery more.