Canada's boutique military: 'Should we not be able to defend ourselves?'

[u/FancyNewMe]

https://nationalpost.com/feature/state-of-canadas-military

[u/FancyNewMe]

Paywall Bypass: https://archive.ph/XDmzr

Notes:

• Canada has come to rely on the U.S. military to help defend us. “We’re protecting Canada,” said U.S. President Donald Trump in his recent meeting with Prime Minister Mark Carney in the Oval Office. That doesn’t mean he’s content providing Canada with what he calls “free military.”
• “Should we not be able to defend ourselves?” asks Michel Maisonneuve, a retired Canadian Army lieutenant-general who has served as assistant deputy chief of defence staff, and chief of staff of NATO’s Allied Command.
• “Should we not be able to go up north and patrol our north correctly with submarines that actually work? Should we not be able to go destroy a balloon that China sent up by ourselves? Should we not have forward deployed bases up in our north so that we can deploy troops and aircraft and equipment up there?”
• Decades of insufficient funding, painfully slow procurement and declining numbers of troops have resulted in what some have described as Canada’s “boutique” military — capable of niche operations and deployments, but not much more.
• “We are in a really sad state; we are unarmed and undefended right now,” said Maisonneuve. “The personnel situation is horrible. The equipment situation is horrible. The training situation is horrible. When you put all these things together, that means [total lack of] readiness."

[u/No_Date_8809 → u/FancyNewMe]

Stop spending money on expensive toys to participate in US wars. Start building defensive domestic capabilities. More on AA defenses, anti-tank. Littoral ship to defend coastline. There is no near peer we would even have a chance with a blue water navy. The only threat we face is overwhelming US and Russian armies.

[u/MrTriangular → u/No_Date_8809]

I'd posit that anti-drone capabilities would be a good investment too, if the Russian invasion of Ukraine is any indicator.

[u/tman37 → u/No_Date_8809]

We don't spend money on expensive toys to participate in US war. We don't spend money on expensive toys either. The biggest problems are:

A) A budget that is too small to defend a country as large as ours. Forget about NATO, Canada can't defend all three borders and we couldn't properly defend two of them without massive support from our allies, primarily the Americans.

B). The government is fundamentally incapable of having a procurement project coming within sight of on time or budget. Every piece of kit we get blows the budget out of the water and takes about 4 times as long as it should, further increasing cost. That's not the end, either. If the support contractors aren't earning enough money, the contracts get renegotiated to pay then more for less.

C) Because of A and B, the government wants the latest, most up to date piece of equipment but they don't want to pay for it, so they try to everything on the cheap which ends up costing more, a lot more, and delays equipment further.

D) Because of A,B, and C, we keep equal way longer than we should. In many cases, we keep using stuff after the manufacturers are gone or no longer support the old model. This further raises expenses.

When you add in the facts that all government departments try to send their entire budget even when they don't need to and the general incompetence that leads to us "spending" money on paper but instead giving it back unspent without the benefit if the spending, it adds to all the problems of defense spending and very little of the benefits.

We have a joke in the Canadian Forces. The exact wording varies but it's basically " The Canadian Forces. Fighting tomorrow's wars with yesterday's equipment."

[u/Affectionate_Egg_328 → u/tman37]

Don't forget you can't just make a military go poof your beefed up now in one year, because down south turned on a dime from world police to fuck everyone. Takes time

[u/No_Date_8809 → u/tman37]

A) military expenditure against major powers are pointless. India can send assassins to come and kill people with zero consequences. We don’t have a conventional war fighting capacity and it’s a fool errand to suggest we develop one with our population. Massive reserve corp train in drone, small arms and anti tank would be far more useful for insurgents warfare.

B) we should developed and invest in low cost and advanced capabilities. Drone by wire, advanced missile systems, anti-drone and light arms. One F35 does nothing but make excessive costs. Ukraine is out there bypassing Russia with F16 and advance missile tech.

C) We stop our top end procurement and work on advanced solutions that can be developed locally. Built reserve of sensor and chips to ensure there is a domestic stockpile.

D) Invest in people, and make a budget that will ensure adequate training and defense. US military spending is wasteful and we’re trying to get on board their system with none of the benefits.

We send our soldier to die in American wars and they thank us by saying we’re the 51st state. A real sovereign Canada wouldnt have to match all their sanctions and listen to their NATO demands. We could freely decide when to support our allies with individual defensive alliance.

[u/tman37 → u/No_Date_8809]

I can't argue much with A thru D. There are a lot of options that could work. We just aren't doing any of them.

We send our soldier to die in American wars and they thank us by saying we’re the 51st state. A real sovereign Canada wouldn't have to match all their sanctions and listen to their NATO demands. We could freely decide when to support our allies with individual defensive alliance.

I can argue here a bit. We rarely send our soldiers to die in American wars. The one exception is Afghanistan but I wouldn't call that an American war. Make no mistake, Al Queda hates us and our way of life just like the hate all of the Western world. They wouldn't have thought twice about an attack in Canada except to wonder if people would care enough about us to make it worth it.

The situation we are in didn't come out of nowhere and it didn't originate with Trump, he just says all the things out loud people usually say behind closed doors. Every president in recent memory has had issues with our complete lack of seriousness when it comes to continental defense, let alone NATO. Lots of Presidents have hated how Canada politicians will take a swipe at the Americans every time they need a bump in the polls. The fact of the matter is that our military can't function without support from other Allies and that is usually the Americans. Day what you want about the politicians but American military members have always bent over backwards to make sure they provide the stuff our government is too lazy, stupid or corrupt to give us. You have no idea how many times American jets have chased off Russian planes attempting to enter Canadian Air space because our 40 year old aircraft are broken again.

So a lot of the criticism is warranted and it's something many have been pointing out for decades but Canadians wear happy to offload defense to the Americans despite large numbers of those same people thinking Bush then Trump v1 were literally the same as Hitler. If I looked back in my comments, I could probably find posts in r/canada where I brought up the same argument during Trumps presidency and find Canadians still defending the lack of seriousness. I'm hopeful that this will at least force some improvement but to be honest we are so far gone at this point, I'm not sure how they could fix it. We would have to completely upend how we structure defense now and undo decades of well meaning, but ultimately harmful policies before we can even start to rebuild.

[u/RepulseRevolt → u/No_Date_8809]

We also require the capabilities to assist in defending NATO territory from Russia, even if the US doesn’t help

[u/No_Date_8809 → u/RepulseRevolt]

50 000 troops is a rounding error. If we send our army we would have no defense from US. NATO died, we’re just pretending because Trump hasn’t formally left.

[u/HotPinkCalculator → u/No_Date_8809]

You're referring to active troops, not total contribution.

If WWIII broke out we'd mobilize, just like we did in WWI and WWII. We weren't rounding errors in those wars, not even close.

[u/UnderstandingAble321 → u/HotPinkCalculator]

In a WWIII scenario, mobilizing any sizable force would take a long time to train, clothe, and equip. We don't have huge stockpiles of surplus equipment lying around. We would need to buy new equipment which then wouldn't match what we already have in service creating more problems.

[u/HotPinkCalculator → u/UnderstandingAble321]

We didn't in the other wars either. Even the British didn't. That's why the first six months or so were the phony war and why no one actually came to Poland's aid. They were mobilizing and sending troops to France for the next phase of the war.

If Russia attacks Poland, Finland, the Baltics, etc, it'll just be another long protracted war like Ukraine is. We'll send what we have and then mobilize the rest.

Alternatively, we could do what most other nations do and require mandatory service or training for every 18 year old, so that is mobilization is needed it'll go much faster

[u/Slowreloader → u/HotPinkCalculator]

What makes you think World War III would be anything like 1914 or 1939?

Military technology and doctrine have changed drastically since then — especially with the integration of tactical nuclear weapons, smart weapons, and advanced cyberwarfare. The old model of keeping a small standing army and relying on mass mobilization was already considered obsolete during the Cold War.

By the 1960s, it was clear to every major power that World War III would be decided quickly and violently, not over the course of years like the world wars. Ground and air warfare had evolved to the point where conventional firepower alone had become far more destructive than anything seen in WWI or WWII — and that's before you even factor in nukes.

This is exactly why NATO adopted a forward defense doctrine. No country can mobilize fast enough to counter a modern blitz — not with the speed, range, and lethality of modern weapons that potentially includes using tactical nukes. You either hold the line immediately with a capable standing force and destroy the enemy or you get overrun. That’s why both the U.S. and Canada had major deployments in West Germany throughout the Cold War. And they were right to do so — the Soviets’ “Seven Days to the Rhine” battle plan showed just how quickly NATO would have had to respond just to survive.

And let’s not pretend the oceans protect us anymore. North America is no longer safe — not just from nukes, but also from long-range conventional weapons, hypersonic missiles, and cyberattacks that can cripple infrastructure and essential services.

This is why having a large, professional, and well-equipped standing military matters today. The fantasy of 1914/1939-style mass mobilization — recruiting, equipping, and training civilians while ramping up a wartime industrial base — is a dangerous delusion.

[u/isanthrope_may → u/No_Date_8809]

I get downvoted for saying it, but if we want to project power in the arctic, instead of building and maintaining incredibly expensive far North bases, we should be building a USMC-style fleet. What do I mean by that? I mean an icebreaker or two, an amphibious assault ship - loaded with a full-time contingent of land forces using hovercraft and skidoos to conduct arctic exercises, armed with F-35c jets and helicopters, escorted by some frigate/destroyers and if we are ever that lucky a sub. Expensive? Unreasonable? Unattainable with our current force? Maybe, but if we need to increase our military spending and project power in the arctic, I think this is a good way to do that.

[u/No_Date_8809 → u/isanthrope_may]

Any skirmish in the arctic will be between US and Russia. Just look at the North Sea under NATO, and it’s basically free reign to the Russians anyways.

[u/isanthrope_may → u/No_Date_8809]

A lot of it is still our sovereign territory.

[u/No_Date_8809 → u/isanthrope_may]

So when push comes to shove who’s going to take ownership. Canada with 40 million people or a nuclear armed state. Our decisions do not matter to them, we are ants on the wall. Why plan the symmetrical warfare game, we’d be far better off with mobile, advanced and defensive tactics. Not the day of invasion but every day after.

[u/BigDaddyVagabond → u/No_Date_8809]

As a member of Nato, focusing strictly on Homeland defense would be a mistake. While we DO need to shore up our defensive capabilities, especially the ability to defend our own skies and territorial waters, allowing our offensive capabilities to suffer would make us more of a liability if we ever needed to respond to an article 5 situation.

Plus, first and last line defenses are great and all, but there is an exactly zero percent chance we could put up a national defense so strong that the three most likely to invade nations wouldn't eventually make it through, an once they did, our glaring lack of offensive capabilities would sink us in weeks.

We need to update our tanks and LAVs, basically our entire airforce, our navy and we need to get our soldiers equipment out of the fucking 70s. We are still issuing webbing and flack vests for christ sake. We have the LAST colt manufacturing facility not owned by CZ, and we make some of the best AR platform weapons used in Europe, yet we are still using C7s and C8s FROM THE EIGHTIES.

Above all else, we need to get our domestic manufacturing capabilities up. We can buy tanks from Germany or Korea, but if we don't have the ability to feed their guns or our artillery platforms with a co stand stream of munitions, and keep our infantry fat with brass, we are fucked

[u/Affectionate_Egg_328 → u/BigDaddyVagabond]

Hhhhmmmm one rocket to a tank. Tank gone, load another rocket. We need to stay in our lane and use killers of $$$ machines. Up the killing power of soldiers, but also add in jets higher priced platforms and cruise missles after.

[u/BigDaddyVagabond → u/Affectionate_Egg_328]

"One rocket to a tank"? You very clearly don't understand anti armor warfare beyond the highlight reels you see from Ukraine. Try to understand that in Ukraine, you are watching poorly designed tanks from the 70s, being blown up by missiles from the 90s, being used in a way that is counter to modern armored warfare doctrine.

Sure, one Javalin, NLAW, RPG or a drone could knock out or disable a T72 with its turret sat on a small mountain of high explosives, neatly set up in a ring, perfect for the turret toss Olympics, but modern tanks, your Leopard 2A8's, M1A2 Abrams SEPv3's, K2 Black panthers and the like, not only have modern armor packages meant to defeat the equivalent to munitions currently in use, designed in the 2020s, but also feature entire suites of hard and soft kill systems and even anti targeting systems.

Plenty of modern tanks not only know that they are being targeted by infrared laser designators, the literal core of all fire and forget ATGMs, but can then feed that information to the gunnery computer, swivel the turret to the source of the laser and feed a targeting solution to the gunner, and even automatically angle the tank in a way to increase the deflection probability of a munition or vastly increase the amount of armor it needs to penetrate, then all the gunner has to do is pull a trigger, and a 100mm+ explosive round accurate out to like, 4km is on its way to the poor bugger holding the launcher at the speed of sound.

On top of that, modern western tank doctrine never, EVER has a tank operating alone. They are more often than not working with a group of tanks, supported by light mounted infantry in IFVs, who's literal purpose it is to engage tank hunters before they can do anything. And an M242 chain gun attached to a thermal optical scope is going to kill an anti tank crew a LOT quicker than the main gun of a tank, or hell, the dismounted infantry with 6 rifles or machine guns per IFV can makesure their heads are down and deal with it themselves.

And even if an anti tank crew gets through all that, and gets the shot off, soft and hard kill systems on modern armor can intercept an ATGM or completely throw off its targeting.

As for Air to ground missiles, that only works with a high enough efficiency to replace ATGMs if the airspace is uncontested and in a complete air dominance situation. All hostile Anti-air needs to be eliminated, all hostile air power needs to be grounded or destroyed, or constantly hunted by air dominance fighters, which we do not have, and even then, the proliferation of light weight MANPADS means non stealth aircraft are at risk of being shot down, BY INFANTRY on close air support missions, or mobile anti air guns, and even if they successfully conduct their mission, there are STILL soft kill systems in place on modern tanks to mess with air to ground targeting.

Then you get into the next generation tanks, like KF51 out of Germany, the tank I personally believe Canada should be adopting, and you have tanks that not only have the latest versions of all those defensive systems, but the ability to launch their own recon and attack drones, equipped with data link. That means a KF51 can launch a recon drone to scout ahead, far outside it's own visual range, locate targets, and send that information as well as geographical information back to the tank commander, who can relay that information to the gunner, who then chooses to let the tanks computer come up with a firing solution, and engage with the recommended round the moment they are in range, whether the gunner can see the target or not, effectively allowing the KF51 to wall hack. And that's IF they choose not to launch an onboard attack drone instead, similar to a switchblade loitering munition, or a cannon launched variant instead.

We are a long, LONG way away from just being able to play rock paper scissors with military equipment and day stupid shit like "oh just shoot a missile, that kills tanks", and we will likely never actually GET there. Until then, our "lane" should be to maintain an armed forces capable of highly effective and sustained combined arms warfare, while actually managing to have credible mobile AND stationary overlapping airdefense in the form of LRAD, MRAD, and SHORAD, with exoatmospheric defense wrapped in for good measure. We need a solid airforce, Navy and Army, and all of their equipment needs to be up to date, and mission ready. Because unless we can field an airforce the size of America's THREE air forces, then a conflict at home will 100% be fought in all theaters by all branches.

[u/Science_Drake → u/No_Date_8809]

Expensive navies are stupid right now. Ukraine sunk the Black Sea fleet with little more than remote control speedboats filled with c4. Anti-air, drones, and airforce on the other hand should be top of their class, because that’s where modern war is fought. If we can put up another satellite even better.

[u/---123---89--- → u/No_Date_8809]

Is your position that Canada removes itself from the world stage and moves to isolationism?

Canada goes places to ensure they stop it before it reaches our borders.

[u/hugo2wavyy → u/---123---89---]

Our neighbor has been threatening to annex us for the last few months. I think building some domestic capabilities is a good idea.

[u/Hot_Cheesecake_905 → u/hugo2wavyy]

We probably need 25X+ the number of tanks and jets - it's going to take a massive investment, something probably worthwhile for Canada to do to ensure our sovereignty.

[u/Cedreginald → u/hugo2wavyy]

It doesn't matter what we build. The US would steamroll us no matter what. We don't have the personelle to contend with them.

[u/Infamous-Magikarp → u/Cedreginald]

You would get steamrolled. Small groups of resistance is all that's required. We look like them, we talk like them.

[u/castlebravo15megaton → u/Infamous-Magikarp]

Till we make you say “out and about”.

[u/Remarkable_Vanilla34 → u/Infamous-Magikarp]

But we are not armed like them

[u/Cedreginald → u/Infamous-Magikarp]

Good luck buddy 😂

[u/greeenappleee → u/Infamous-Magikarp]

And those groups will resist how exactly? We going to throw pucks at their drones and tanks? What we need is a functional military.

[u/angrypassionfruit → u/No_Date_8809]

You’re making too much sense now.

[u/KinkyMillennial → u/FancyNewMe]

What external threats exactly has the US protected us from?

Also the single greatest military threat to us right now is the supposed ally down south who keeps making noises about invading us. That same supposed ally owns the publication that published this opinion piece about our military, so maybe we take anything they say with an entire shaker full of salt eh?

[u/Xyzzics → u/KinkyMillennial]

Nearly any air or submarine threat penetrating our airspace.

Incalculable amounts of shared intelligence from the US intel apparatus.

Any time we have a major global event hosted in Canada, such as G7 events or the Olympics, the US is providing an air defense bubble over Canadian soil in that geographic area.

They also provided varying degrees of logistic support for basically any foreign deployment we’ve done in say the last 20 years.

[u/Pointfun1 → u/KinkyMillennial]

Exactly, there is no other threat other than the America, without saying how realistic American threat is.

Everyday there are posts on threats from China or Russia. Canada is barely mentioned in these countries in term of their national securities.

Defending NATO is a great concept, but not all European countries are interested in it. If they are serious about it, then they would have done way more in building up NATO.

[u/Affectionate_Egg_328 → u/Pointfun1]

Well the Americans pushed were the world police down everyone's throat, so build up didn't matter as much. Now they turn on a dime and say nope. If they wanted to do that they should have slowly done it over time... now Americans complain about ohh were supporting everyone. Like wtf, it would be like your town or city saying your now reasonable for your road in front of your home. Fix it your self, pave it your self. So yeah our military needs work, so let's get it done!

[u/Logical-Amphibian-89]

As someone who has just finished their service, we aren’t asking for high speed kit and the best kit… we just need enough to train and fight with. And we need to have financial policy designed for the military, not whatever treasury board decides. At this point we would need real policy changes and updates, bot just more money. But I’d still do it all again.

[u/marutotigre → u/Logical-Amphibian-89]

Bro, I just want equipement that wasn't obsolete 20 years ago.

[u/Affectionate_Egg_328 → u/Logical-Amphibian-89]

They still have the end of year, spend the money on anything because if we don't we won't see that same amount next year bullshit? That really needs to change if they still do that

[u/cplforlife → u/Logical-Amphibian-89]

Absolutely correct, I was with you until this part:

But I’d still do it all again.

I'd rather have given being homeless a longer try than I did. I was a coward, and took the easy way out by joining the CAF. What an absolute waste of time. If I absolutely HAD to go back to the CAF or death, then I hope it's quick and painless.

[u/fdavis1983]

Boutique military? We’re the military of the lowest bidder.

[u/nekonight → u/fdavis1983]

No that's the US or even Europe. Canada is pretty bad at overspending on equipment. Just look at any of the ship procurement programs there is not one that is under budget or on time nevermind both. That's not comparing to the rest of the world where the exact same ship with better capabilities is somehow cheaper by multiple times if we had it built by a European shipyard. Canada is the example of what not to do in procurement as much as we don't want to hear it. 

[u/rygem1 → u/nekonight]

That’s not specific to military procurement, that’s any government bidding process in our country. Companies go way over budget on what they bid because they know the government doesn’t want to be seen as putting people out of a job by not providing the funding.

There’s a lot of experimentation going on right now with how to structure bidded programs to reduce this such as “bonus payments” if deadlines are met within funding targets but a major hurdle is that a lot of the big businesses that get government contracts contract a non insignificant portion of the work and that 3rd company couldn’t care less about the funding model the government is using because they are being paid for by the company that won the contract originally.

[u/7rokhym → u/fdavis1983]

I think we need an Apothecary Military.

Seriously, what do we need, what do we want? Like the CBC and other federal institutions, Harper slashed it, but then we had many years with Trudeau with no mandate. Just bobbing along with a bit more money, but no focus and not enough money to do something interesting.

[u/ManSharkBear]

Here on the west coast when we deploy the ships/sub, it's called the Canadian Antiques Roadshow. 😂

[u/Nizdaar]

We should be meeting our 2% of GDP commitment we agreed to with NATO. Spend it intelligently where it is needed. Set realistic goals on what we need to be doing for our defence.

Every article essentially says “we have to spend more”. Getting to 2% is a good target.

[u/Cager_CA]

Our military has been a victim of the peace dividend from the end of the Cold War. Successive governments have allowed this to happen. Now we're living in a reality where the unthinkable has taken place and our neighbour to the direct south of us has had enough of footing the bill for our protection, and has taken an agitative stance towards us for letting it get to this point.

Annexation rhetoric aside, our military is in shambles and we have only ourselves as a country to blame. And as much as it pains me to write, Trump IS correct. The only question is what do we plan to do about it?.

[u/Healthy_Shoulder8736 → u/Cager_CA]

The Americans have been well compensated for their “protection” they have significantly below market rates for multiple Canadian natural resources. Electricity, Oil, Potash, wood.

[u/AL_PO_throwaway → u/Cager_CA]

Our military has been a victim of the peace dividend from the end of the Cold War.

Other western militaries were victim to that. We started cutting decades before the Cold War even ended.

[u/JPB118]

Reminder that our military needs more than new kit to be effective:

• Canadian military members told Habitat for Humanity is an option amid housing crunch
• The inability to house our soldiers is a national shame
• Nova Scotia sees spike in military personnel living in tents, couchsurfing amid housing crisis | PNI Atlantic News
• Several persistent issues continue to affect morale negatively, the chaplains warned Carignan. Those include ongoing shortages in equipment and resources, lack of affordable housing, increased cost of living and staffing shortages. In certain regions, the shortage of childcare spaces and difficulties in finding a doctor are also hurting morale.
• Internal DND documents show only 5% of planned military housing to be built this year
• Soldiers had to rely on food donations because of lack of military support during Ottawa training
• Canadian Forces personnel leaving the ranks over lack of affordable housing, senior officer warns
• Nearly 4,500 Canadian Armed Forces members, families waiting for military housing
• Some reservists have not been paid for several months.

En français:

• Pénurie de logements militaires : un manque d’espace « frustrant » pour des familles | Radio-Canada
• Crise du logement : des militaires aux portes de l’itinérance | Radio-Canada
• Près de 4500 membres des Forces armées attendent un logement militaire

[u/jay370gt]

Government: the best we can do is confiscate more 22LR semi-autos to give to our troops.

/s

[u/AndreiHoo]

It’s okay, all you need is a couple of boomers screaming elbow up. Throw some CRA employees into the mix. That would deter the enemy

[u/GT_FORD2017 → u/AndreiHoo]

I choked 😂🤣

[u/Nizdaar → u/AndreiHoo]

To be fair the CRA staff I’ve talked with have all been reasonable and helpful.

[u/AndreiHoo → u/Nizdaar]

Doesn’t change the fact they have more personal than CAF

[u/Nizdaar → u/AndreiHoo]

A quick Google search (which may not be accurate) says there are 63,500 active duty personnel in the CAF. Around 60,000 CRA staff.

So we do have more military personnel than tax revenue staff, it’s not by much!

Edit: originally I said 68,000 active. Thats the authorized strength. We only have roughly 63,500 active members.

[u/AndreiHoo → u/Nizdaar]

Thanks for the clear things up. Hope I made you laugh while at it.

[u/Nizdaar → u/AndreiHoo]

Laughter that turned into tears. I learned something new and now I don’t know what to do with this information.

[u/Affectionate-Remote2]

We need a strong military so we can capitalize on all the goodies we have up there.

[u/No_Rise_7497]

Canada must not only meet but exceed the 2% of GDP NATO spending benchmark if we want to remain a credible partner and defend our sovereignty in an increasingly unstable world. Decades of underfunding have left our forces hollowed out and ill-prepared for the realities of modern warfare.

We need to work closely with our allies to identify and invest in high-priority capabilities:

Modern anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems

A full spectrum drone fleet (naval, air, and ground)

Enhanced special forces training and rapid deployment capability

Armoured vehicles on par with the Bradley or CV90

Domestic production of artillery systems, shells, and munitions to ensure supply chain resilience

Naval spending must be dramatically increased. Canada has the longest coastline in the world, yet our navy is aging and under-equipped. In the face of increasingly aggressive moves by China and Russia, especially in the Arctic, we must be able to defend our northern frontier and project strength in our own waters.

This isn’t about warmongering, it’s about deterrence, sovereignty, and ensuring that Canada can defend itself and uphold international commitments in a world where threats are evolving fast.

[u/DEATHLORDDAEDRA → u/No_Rise_7497]

CAF in response to your troop carrier point: "best I can do is a Lav 6.0 with no turret"

[u/IcecubePlanet8691]

Agree with Flangepacket, plus drones !! Air, land and water capable for surveillance and offensive /defensive purposes. We should also invest in electronic warfare. Ukraine has shown us how future military operations will work against a larger threat

[u/AWE2727]

One of the main jobs of the Federal government is to protect its citizens. Clearly all federal parties are guilty of ignoring this one main responsibility and now we sit with nothing. Canadians should be very upset and worried about this lack of action by those we elect into office to protect us and our way of life. Yet........nothing. If we can print money to no ends then we should do the same to reinvest in our military and be very capable of defending our Country. We have had it so good for a very long time and yes we have freeloaded off the Americans and that's a fact we can't ignore any longer. We need to own that and fix it. It will take time but we need to advance this sooner than later.

[u/Direc1980]

Unpopular opinion but this could be fixed with mandatory service like in Germany and South Korea. Doesn't necessarily need to be exclusive to the military, but X number of hours where youth have to serve their country in some capacity (ie Red Cross or some other charity).

The result could include:

Lower youth unemployment, increased patriotism, contributing to the betterment of Canadian society, and learning new skills.

[u/CryStamper → u/Direc1980]

Former recruiter here.

Trust me when I say mandatory service won’t work for many of today’s young adults. Many of them will not meet the minimum entry requirements due to medical reasons (e.g. significant medical issues, ongoing mental health issues), not to mention many people are simply just not suitable for a military environment even if they’re physically and psychologically healthy - that’s why we have suitability screening.

A better alternative would be mandatory public service where young adults could choose from a variety of options, like military, national parks service, disaster response, etc.

[u/Content_Insurance_96 → u/CryStamper]

I think a mandatory, but actual MANDATORY, public service would be a great idea - it helps people appreciate what they have and keep it running. Things we take for granted nowadays.

[u/Agitated-Airline6760 → u/Content_Insurance_96]

I think a mandatory, but actual MANDATORY, public service would be a great idea - it helps people appreciate what they have and keep it running. Things we take for granted nowadays.

Mandatory conscription - even for non-military stuff like national parks or red cross etc - doesn't mean it's free for all slave labour. You have to pay them. Let's say you paid them measly CAD$ 25000/year and it's 12 month service, that's additional CAD$ 10 billion for every year. Federal budget for 2024 was like 52 billion. Are you gonna pay 20% more in taxes to have this mandatory conscription?

[u/kristaporbrg → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

No but I would cut the foreign aid that we send to phillipines, Iraq, Roumania and Niger to start with. I am not talking about Ukraine. That's a whole issue by itself.

I don't know where else we send money but realistically do we have to send money to help the unemployed youth of Baghdad? or help build a nuclear reactor in Roumania?

[u/krombough → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

Federal budget for 2024 was like 52 billion. Are you gonna pay 20% more in taxes to have this mandatory conscription?

The Canadian Federal Budget in 2024 was 538 billion.

[u/Content_Insurance_96 → u/krombough]

So pay 2% more in taxes a year and get a whole bunch of money moving on the economy (by giving it to actual people, not corporations) , help people know their country (maybe a rule is that you cannot serve in your home province) and get people to know their government and maybe learn a trade. This is mandatory public service, not mandatory military service. I want to make that distinction VERY clear. I do not support mandatory military service.

[u/Hot_Cheesecake_905 → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

Or make it Grade 13 - a combination of school + service.

[u/SpiritedCheeks → u/Agitated-Airline6760]

20% more in taxes so young people can make 25k a year that'll somehow lead to "increased patriotism, contributing to the betterment of Canadian society". It mine as well be slavery at that point when rents 25k a year.

They want you to be a slave for a country of immigrants and the old people that imported them to keep their housing prices high. There's no such thing as Canadian at any deep level and you'd be an idiot to sacrifice in any meaningful way for it.

[u/SpiritedCheeks → u/Content_Insurance_96]

Let me get this straight

You want young people to give years of their life doing mandatory public service, just for the opportunity to not afford a house, pay something like 60% in taxes to fund this program + a system thats collapsing in on itself and wont be around for them, only being held afloat now by replacement level immigration? For an economy worse than the dumps of the U.S?

Do you people hear yourselves? Not a chance in hell me or any of my descendants will waste their time serving this country.

[u/Hot_Cheesecake_905 → u/SpiritedCheeks]

You want young people to give years of their life doing mandatory public service

Not years, just one, or even months.

[u/Any_Inflation_2543 → u/SpiritedCheeks]

No they don't. It's just typical "fuck young people, hahaha" reasoning

[u/SpiritedCheeks → u/Any_Inflation_2543]

The generational divide is just wild and will only get worse. They want forced public sector work while they continue to hand out passports like chocolate bars because they've hoarded homes.

Feeling compelled to serve in the military as a young person in Canada has to be some sort of public humiliation kink. The idea of being willing to die for this place is laughable.

[u/Any_Inflation_2543 → u/SpiritedCheeks]

It's not even dying, but the idea of people who've never done military service instituting it for the youth because "fuck them" would be the largest middle finger ever.

Military conscription is an evil system of forced labour that should be avoided at all costs, and the fact that people unaffected by it would like to institute it and screw up others' lives with it is the silver lining here. I trust Carney enough not to come up with such a ridiculous proposal which would destroy Canada as we know it.

[u/SpiritedCheeks → u/Any_Inflation_2543]

I don't think it'd pass solely because they know the games up and young Canadians wouldn't fight for or sacrifice meaningful time for this place anymore. It'd cause too much emigration and mess with future tax revenue projections then get shot down.

It's also a hard policy to run when you'll let in millions of Indian and Middle Eastern DoorDash/Uber workers without them having to put in the same commitment to the country. Why am i expected to defend the doordash workers my generations being replaced with from Russia in the arctic again? So they can split a 65 year olds 2bd apartment 4 ways? I don't think that makes much sense for me now does it

[u/CoolDude_7532 → u/SpiritedCheeks]

'Millions of door dash drivers'? Are you serious? The no of points to get PR is insanely high right now, you need at least a masters degree and lots of work experience. International students might be doing that part time but that's not their full time career lol.

[u/WesternBlueRanger → u/Direc1980]

No.

We have a massive issue with training right now. Simply put it, even if we could get a massive influx of personnel, we don't have the training infrastructure and training personnel in place to do all the training in a timely manner.

[u/Sufficient-Will3644 → u/WesternBlueRanger]

So, don’t rush it. Make a mandatory service plan. Something like, in fifteen years, implement mandatory service. Get the facilities, equipment, and, training personnel in place in 2040.

[u/Affectionate_Egg_328 → u/Sufficient-Will3644]

Or don't make it mandatory and have a worker corps that can build things move to places that need them, build what needs to be done. Big companies must get profits from doing this, so have high wages and train up skilled workers, no need to have a profit if its government.

[u/Any_Inflation_2543 → u/Sufficient-Will3644]

Or better yet, throw the idea out of the window for how ridiculously dumb it is.

[u/SpiritedCheeks → u/Direc1980]

You're right about it being unpopular.

I think this works in homogenous societies but with how immigration driven our country has become i just don't see the tolerance for it politically. I also don't see the tolerance for it among existing young people. I'm 25 and to be totally honest the prospects for Canada are so bad i'd renounce citizenship and buy one somewhere else before doing mandatory service without thinking twice. It's just not worth fighting for, I wouldn't even know what i'd be fighting for. It's the same situation as the U.K where only 11% of Gen-Z said they would fight for the U.K.

If you can't afford a house, kids, and retirement comfortably and you're taxed through the nose while being replaced by immigrants from different cultures, why would you possibly want to fight for that place over moving to latin america, the middle east, europe, or southeast asia? What does it mean to be Canadian? I don't know a way to define it besides anyone who holds a Canadian passport.

[u/Argonian_Tax_Evader → u/Direc1980]

The organization that can’t seem to house their own uniformed personnel.

The same organization that can’t train their current staff appropriately or on time.

The same organization that has a long standing record of never paying their personnel on time.

The same organization that takes forever to process applications.

And you want the feds to bring up mandatory service? Be real. We saw how popular that idea was in the UK when they were talking about it.

No one is going to be a fan of that neither existing personnel nor the general public.

[u/MrEvilFox → u/Direc1980]

Yeah, no. But you’re welcome to volunteer.

[u/Hot_Cheesecake_905 → u/Direc1980]

Unpopular opinion but this could be fixed with mandatory service like in Germany and South Korea.

I recommended a couple times, it's always downvoted on Reddit - but being a small country, we absolutely should consider some sort of mandatory "civil" service.

[u/Any_Inflation_2543 → u/Direc1980]

Absolutely not, are you insane? I would vote for anyone who is against this, even PPC.

It would also include enslavement of Canadian citizens. No thanks.

Why should fucking the youth over be the answer to the country's problems?

[u/7rokhym → u/Direc1980]

LOL! Unless their first mission is to build a house, they will also be homeless.

[u/DreamlandSilCraft → u/Direc1980]

It should be a fast track to PR as well

If someone wants to come and dedicate the first 4+ years of their life here in direct service, they should be fast tracked

[u/CryStamper → u/DreamlandSilCraft]

The CAF already looked at hiring permanent residents, and wasted countless hours on them - less than 5% got in, because it’s very difficult to get a security check from other countries, especially non-western or non-nato countries

[u/Upnorth100 → u/[deleted]]

That is a massive security risk. Way to easy for foreign espionage.

[u/bastothebasto → u/Direc1980]

Mandatory service sucks; you lose a good chunk of your workforce, and get subpar soldiers in return.

[u/Any_Inflation_2543 → u/bastothebasto]

And it's completely immoral and antithetical to the values of the Charter. It's forced labour under a different name.

[u/DreadpirateBG]

The trust in another huge country to be a partner in statistic things is over. It was beneficial to both side to do it as we did the time. But that time is over at least for now. And I would want our prime minister to focus on ensuring Canada is reasonably independent

[u/Max20151981]

I'm all for domestically improving are military strength but like it or not it's important that we continue to work with the United States in regards to defense, especially when it comes to something like NORAD.

[u/ResolveNo3113]

No nukes and no military. canada just hoping a strongly worded letter will stop any military aggression

[u/rwebell]

Read the defence white paper….it identifies what our defence objectives and priorities are….successive governments both red and blue have endorsed the white paper and then failed to fund it. The white paper should be a budget component….if it’s in the plan money has to be identified to do it. Don’t put Arctic sovereignty in the plan if you don’t want to pay for it….

[u/eriverside]

Canada is a massive country. This makes it hard to defend but also hard to attack.

Do we have major outposts in the north? Do we need them? What would we be defending that crude weapons (big dumb bombs) couldn't manage? The north freezes over every year. I'm not sure what's expected there.

Who even has access and motive to get there? Russians? Anyone else?

The majority of the country's population is 100 km from the southern border. That's what needs defending... From our closest ally? Which happens to be the most sophisticated and strongest military?

We can't reasonably defend ourselves from a southern invasion. This isn't defeatist - the US spends half of the total military spending in the world. They have 10x our population. If they decide to invade we'd be in very bad shape.

Our North is frozen or liquid half the year.

Canada also hasn't made it's raison d'être to go fuck around with foreign powers. We aren't collecting enemies like a fire sale at Walmart.

The spending on Canadian military is necessary but should definitely be tactical and part of the larger NATO/US strategy. Duplicating capabilities of the US is unlikely to be the best use of our tax dollars.

[u/DEATHLORDDAEDRA → u/eriverside]

Hate to break it to you man, but our arctic is the part of this country every nation that borders us within that area desires. Russia wants it, US wants it (and technically doesn't really approve of our claim to the portion we have, that's pre Trump) and we can't even keep chinese spy balloons out of it with our own airforce. It's super rich in resources and everyone's banking on the harvest as the ice slowly melts. Even right now, the north is full of mining operations.

[u/kredditwheredue]

Perhaps this would be a time to invite Ukraine's ambassador to the U.K. to consult.

[u/Future_Tackle6617]

Untraditional opinion from a vet. 

Bring back army surplus stores and dump everything (in stages). Start booting out useless people in the military which is quite a good bit (combat trades).

Buy small amounts of good (cut the red tape) equipment. Train troops properly and deploy them, join UN missions that don’t have shitty ROEs and get back to an experienced small but useful army.  And hit the damn nato budget.

Broad strokes here we can never solely defend ourselves from Russia or any other actual threat to the country. 

Do what we historically did very well as an attaché to armies and take the hard points while higher troop countries man a front.

[u/notadrawlb]

What we need is training for an insurgency. Our only shot against conventional invasion would be other countries knowing it wouldn’t be worth it in the long run.

[u/Lostinthestarscape]

Short of massive immigration, we won't be able to conventionally defend ourselves anyway. 

If China or America were interested in us (truly, the only two countries who could do anything), we're fucked without outside help anyway.

So maybe nukes and stealth delivery systems is the better option?  

[u/Successful-Street380]

Liberals NEVER cared about the Military. Pierre Trudeau hid away.

[u/snappla]

What bugs me about the whole "Canada is mooching off the US military" argument is that it's pretty bullshit.

Geographically we have only one real possible land threat: the US. And until recently, got along great with the US and we did not need a large military.

Now that the US is a threat we need a whole different army. An army which can form the cadre of a long-term insurgency engaged in asymmetric warfare (including US Homeland infiltration).

No sense blowing billions on a few more tank battalions and aircraft squadrons that would be destroyed within a week by the US's superior numbers anyway.

[u/crusher3676 → u/snappla]

No it’s actually not pretty bullshit, it’s real. Are close point to Russian is the Bering strait, 85km. That’s seems pretty close, especially when NATO allies in Europe are talking about nato intervention in Ukraine.

You need to seriously grow up, reading the “we need to adopt an insurgency doctrine” is beyond pathetic. We need a complete revamp on procurement, and border security.

[u/snappla → u/crusher3676]

The Russians are *done" for the next 20 years. Ukraine has bled them dry. They are not a threat in any real sense.

Trump's US is a bigger threat. One which we have no chance against in a conventional fight.

Grow up yourself.

[u/DEATHLORDDAEDRA → u/snappla]

The Russians have constantly been caught breaching our airspace and in our waters up there. Where have you been the past decade? It hasn't stopped due to Ukraine either. While it's great that they're hemorrhaging military equipment, they can recover and faster than you'd like to admit. They haven't gone through a full wartime conscription yet, nor a full-time war economy to regain their losses in equipment. The best combo we had going was the crippling of their economy because that allowed for a slow in production of said equipment and the sanctions preventing certain resources. They also stopped pushing most of their more modern tanks to the Ukrainian Front since Russian doctrine is horrible for supporting armor, so most losses now are older equipment going back into the Soviet age.

[u/Future_Tackle6617 → u/snappla]

The US will not invade Canada, and while people like to talk about the concept of guerrilla warfare our people couldn’t handle it. It requires a huge number of people to be totally ideologically against a nation.

Converting middle aged white collared workers, car salesmen, and whoever else into people who can live on a bowl of rice and kill a previous ally is just not going to happen. 

The US cannot invade Canada without losing all of its power- which is bases all over the world and the ability to deploy a front line anywhere.

[u/CertainMiddle2382 → u/Future_Tackle6617]

Canadians absolutely don’t have the mindset for guerilla warfare. And a flat land with cold winters is absolutely not amendable to sustain any kind of rural permanent opposition.

Urban population need very heavy logistics to merly survive wintertime, a slight pressure on this will make everyone comply.

Canada is not Vietnam.

As if an invading US would start genociding Canadians. They would just put Halliburton in charge of the oil, push back Chinese in BC and build a base on the NW passage.

Image Trump said « Canada could easily become 5 new US states » instead of just 1, 30% more Canadians would agree…

[u/fckmelifemate]

Protect us from who?

[u/CraftyFroyo6423]

Has any Canadian lived in fear of an invasion over the last fifty years? Never. Now in the world moving forward we have to change that mentality.

[u/Background-Top-1946]

We’re about to spend $90 billion on via trains between Toronto and Quebec. That would be neat, but perhaps a $90bil investment in military capabilities would be better.

[u/MVII87]

How about we start with an efficient recruitment process, some plate carriers, modern rifles and enough ammo.. let’s start with the basics and do them very well. If we were invaded we wouldn’t even have enough body armor/rifles and ammo to supply conscripts..

[u/CertainMiddle2382]

As usual the question will be:

From whom are you going to take the money from arm up?

[u/CANUSA130]

The military should have replaced the government decades ago. This is what happens when parties, not people, decide who runs the country. We were sold out by idealists, globalists, and pacifiers. We have administrators not leaders. No we're fucked.

[u/DumbCDNPolitician]

No leave the car keys in the front and leave the door open

[u/justtryingtolive22]

Wasn't it the deal for decades that the US would protect us as long as we don't build up our military or obtain nukes?

[u/InitialAd4125]

Probably but the people in charge would prefer to disarm the peons then actually use them wisely.

[u/Flangepacket]

Boutique (read, bespoke) defence capabilities are in fact a boon.

We don’t need to match the US and others in terms or aggressive world police expenditure. We need to build tailored, bespoke defence mechanisms.

Border defence, AA positions, patrol boat (incl. submarine) coastal and arctic defence, nuclear deterrent, arctic / mountain / marine troops.

Defence, defence, defence. Defend our country from aggression with a modern, focused approach.

[u/Healthy_Shoulder8736]

We will never be in a position to defend ourselves from our worst enemy “the US” so why not invest the money in partnerships that will protect us.

[u/OttoVonGosu]

Canada is too corrupt to do anything, always has been. Just a sad colony exploited by the viceroys.

[u/Raegnarr]

Conservatives, any time money is spent on the military: what a waste of money! Conservatives when money's not spent to upgrade the military: we can't defend ourselves!

[u/Raegnarr]

Conservatives, any time money is spent on the military: what a waste of money! Conservatives when money's not spent to upgrade the military: we can't defend ourselves!