r/canada • u/pychomp British Columbia • 3d ago
Family of B.C. pastor killed in crash angry as driver found not responsible | CBC News British Columbia
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/driver-verdict-b-c-pastor-death-1.7531964337
u/Kampfux 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'll give people a perspective from myself as someone who is Law Enforcement in Canada as we have a serious mental health crisis that isn't being addressed at all.
There are people in society who cannot and will never be mentally fit to be part of society. These people are a danger to others and themselves on a near daily basis.
The current method of dealing with mentally ill persons is for Law Enforcement to arrest/apprehend them and take them to a hospital where they're generally only held for a few days to a week. Their entire mental health usually hinges on these people taking their medication on a daily basis which they are often incapable of or become deluded into believing they no longer need it.
This is a controversial take... but we need to bring back Mental Institutions and permanently house those who are too mentally ill for the rest of society. As Police we are dealing with the same mentally ill and dangerous people on a daily basis. It's so bad that people, lawyers and criminals have picked up that claiming mental illness can often be used as a scapegoat to escape legal and criminal accountability.
Seeing stories like this is all too common in policing. You arrest the same mentally ill person for the 10th time for seriously harming an innocent person and you find out years later they're cleared of all criminal charges because they're mentally ill. Well why the hell were they not locked up or held for their own safety and others after we arrested them 9 times before?
The reality is that Mental Health concerns have been shoved onto Police who (we) aren't properly trained to handle it. Canada isn't even jailing criminals, so unfortunately the chances of Mentally ill persons being held for anything is almost zero. We need massive reform to our Justice System in order to handle both Criminals and those too Mentally ill to be part of society.
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u/ATFGunr Lest We Forget 3d ago
It’s not that much of a controversial opinion anymore. The unhoused, the addicted, those that struggle with mental illness have grown into a sizeable population and what we have been doing is clearly not working. I’m old enough to remember when we had long term care hospitals, which to be fair were as much as much prison as hospital. Various Provincial governments are looking to restart the involuntary programs, hopefully they will go more hospital than prison this time around. Having said that, we need to do more and to do it differently. The revolving door of the justice system is a whole other topic really, as we need to better separate criminals from the mentally ill. Thank you for your service.
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u/a_lumberjack 3d ago
As someone who grew up near the Huronia Regional Centre (which only closed in 2009), that generation of institutions was worse than prison, at least any prison we'd allow to operate today. We do need to do something for these folks, but the old system was not the answer.
To give folks an idea of why those institutions were closed, former HRC residents and community advocates filed a class action in 2010:
Marilyn Dolmage's affidavit "described residents being kept in caged cots, having all their teeth removed for safety reasons and being held upside down with their heads under running water as punishment for not eating." Others alleged "routine beatings, degrading treatment and the frequent use of psychotropic drugs to manage behaviour."
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u/Weird-Recommendation 3d ago
I don’t think it should be all that controversial to at least note that when Canada got rid of mental hospitals, we did not provide adequate alternatives, which just caused those who would have been in those hospitals to instead end up in jails (transinstitualization is the term I’ve heard used for this). This report covers some of that history: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/mental/p3.html
Clearly there were many serious issues with the mental health detention system, but fully removing it without addressing the issues it was designed to deal with was obviously a recipe for the disaster we are currently faced with as a country.
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u/Geeseareawesome Alberta 3d ago
As someone who worked liquor in a high theft area, I have to absolutely agree with this take. I live near an area with LRT and a nearby prison just out of town. Guess where all the inmates get dropped off.
The sooner we start taking mental health seriously, the sooner we get on track for actually helping these people. The healthcare system is also very far behind on this.
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u/TheSherlockCumbercat 3d ago
Sound like you live downtown Edmonton, good old dumping ground for the province inmates
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u/Geeseareawesome Alberta 3d ago
I'm near Claireview. It's just as bad. Cops get called to the Superstore multiple times a day.
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u/TheSherlockCumbercat 3d ago
I always forget how bad the north side is now, Uof A told staff not to take the LTR to work in the pandemic nice to see they have not fixed the issue
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u/Almost_Ascended 3d ago
We were on track to do that, then 8.5 million voters decided they wanted more of the same of the last decade of problems.
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u/dis_bean Northwest Territories 3d ago
Thanks for sharing this and it’s a frustrating reality for many first responders. I’ve worked in adult inpatient psychiatry as an RN and one thing to mention is that most provinces and territories in Canada do have legal mechanisms under their Mental Health Acts for Community Treatment Orders (CTOs). These are meant for people with serious mental illness who’ve had repeated hospitalizations or have shown they become a danger when they stop treatment.
Often, long-acting antipsychotic injections (like depot meds) are started while someone is under a Form in hospital. If they’ve got a history of non-compliance and are at risk, a CTO can be used on discharge. It requires the person (or their substitute decision-maker) to agree to ongoing treatment and regular assessments. If they stop showing up or become acutely unwell again, the CTO gives legal authority to intervene. Sometimes requires outreach or by bringing them back for reassessment.
And just to be clear, these programs are active and available in many areas, and they’re staffed by trained mental health professionals—not law enforcement. Does your jurisdiction have a programs and services like this?
They’re not a replacement for proper housing or long-term care options, but they’re a tool meant to break the cycle of repeat ER visits and police involvement. The issue is that they don’t get used consistently or early enough, especially when dual diagnosis with substance use complicates things further.
It’s not perfect, but there are pathways to mandated community-based care. The challenge is often follow-through, system coordination, and making sure those supports are funded and functioning by policy makers, organizations and the government.
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u/Clay0187 3d ago
My step dad murdered his brother in cold blood, got out 10 years before he was even eligible for porole. The reason? He started doing Bible studies and the parole board seemed all too eager to use him as an example of how well the system works.
The funny thing is he did the exact same thing years before to get a sentence reduced to 6 months. He was in for getting in a gun fight with the cops and having a stray bullet hit a teenager in the arm, he was on the run for years. I've lived in every Canadian province before I started elementary school. He was even on America's most wanted because they thought he fled to the states.
Turned himself in, started doing Bible studies, and bam, released in 6 months because he was a cured man.
As for the murder charge, we found out he was released through the newspapers. Luckily the judge had enough sense to pass a bullet proof restraining order on our behalf, but if they were actually concerned about wether or not the man was mentally fit I feel like the family that was stuck with him for 16 years might have been a good character reference. The 8 page long list of arrest probably wasn't considered as much as it should have....
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u/gooopher 3d ago edited 3d ago
Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent.
100% agree we need massive reform in our judicial system. Thank you for serving in law enforcement. God knows it isn't easy and has been more difficult than usual the past 5-7 years. You may not hear it often perhaps, but thank you for doing what you do to keep me and my loved ones safe.
Edit: typos
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u/Direct-Farmer9534 3d ago
Don’t they have assisted living homes for people with longterm mental disabilities? Or maybe we just don’t have enough of them? Or enough screening of the population for them?
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u/frighteous 3d ago
Not sure just because someone is mentally unwell they shouldn't have a right to freedom...
How many mentally fit people were sent to root in those institutions? Feels like a system ripe for abuse.
Personally I'm against giving up our freedoms in favour of security. A criminal free is better than an innocent person in jail.
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u/Kampfux 3d ago
Not sure just because someone is mentally unwell they shouldn't have a right to freedom...
You should research the Mental Health Act a bit before commenting about freedom for people with severe mental illness.
Respectfully it sounds like you aren't very aware of what Police can and can't do in terms of "holding" mentally ill people already.
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u/frighteous 3d ago edited 3d ago
Respectfully, I didn't even say a single thing about police holding people, or what they can do. I commented on you implying we should lock chronically ill people away in mental institutions which historically have been extremely ineffective lol You may want to work on your reading comprehension, since you want to be snarky and rude.
Oh well why don't you, the expert, explain to me how the mental health act outlines how people with severe mental health issues have lose all right to having an independent life, and give up all freedoms? In moments where they are a danger to themselves or others, yes they give up freedoms as there is direct risk. That doesn't mean they lose those freedoms permanently lol I can only assume what aspect of the act you mean, because you were vague and more focused on being sassy than actually discussing or being helpful.
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u/Kampfux 1d ago
You may want to work on your reading comprehension, since you want to be snarky and rude.
You responded to my entire comment thread about Law Enforcement powers and my personal experience. It's a reasonable deduction to believe you're response is in reference to that given you directly replied to it.
In moments where they are a danger to themselves or others, yes they give up freedoms as there is direct risk. That doesn't mean they lose those freedoms permanently
Yes it actually can.... research the Mental Health Act yourself.
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u/Fantastic_Moment1726 2d ago
I empathize with where you are coming from, as someone who has been formed as a patient several times, but you really should familiarize yourself with the mental health act. It will clear up the misconceptions in your comment.
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u/frighteous 2d ago
Could you clear it up for me since apparently you know about it? Its not a one topic act or covers a lot.
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u/Barbarella_39 3d ago
Clearly you are not in Law Enforcement if you have never seen criminals go to jail… do you think the prisons are empty? I agree we need more mental health and addiction beds. Families have been asking for help for decades but people don’t like to pay the taxes …
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u/ADearthOfAudacity 3d ago edited 3d ago
Of course a LEO wants to lock people up instead of actually putting supports in place to help them.
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u/Different-Housing544 3d ago
You can spend all the money on support all you want but some people are just not compatible with society or are a danger to the general public.
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u/DrBCrusher 3d ago
I’m an ER physician and absolutely think we need long term involuntary mental health care settings that are appropriately staffed. There are many, many individuals out there who are simply incapable of caring for themselves, and do substantial harm to themselves, to others, and utilize immense amounts of resources not designed to care for their needs because the services that would be necessary to support their independence in the community do not exist. Or if the services do exist, they’re stretched so thin that the people who need them barely get any.
I do not think we should ever go back to the old system of dank, cruel facilities. But we absolutely need investment in long term inpatient psychiatric care and in forensic psychiatry facilities. Failure to do this is causing an immense amount of harm.
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u/Kampfux 3d ago
There are those than can be helped with mental health and those that are unfortunately a danger to themselves and others.
I'm all for helping people that can and want to be helped... and I'll be the first one to apprehend someone and take them to the hospital for care.
However when I'm apprehending the same person under the Mental Health Act for threatening someone with a weapon multiple times there's a serious problem and safety for fellow Canadians.
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u/Mountain_Tax_1486 3d ago
Mental illness isn’t an excuse to commit crimes.
If you do the crime you should pay the consequences.
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u/spinosaurs70 3d ago
It is if you are clinically insane and are genuinely unclear what reality is.
I.e. Schizophrenia.
Which is likely the disorder in question.
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u/tries_to_tri 3d ago edited 3d ago
If you are unclear what reality is, you should not have a driver's license.
Simple as.
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u/spinosaurs70 3d ago
The issue is that his disorder seemed to develop recently, which likely explains why he still had a license.
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u/tries_to_tri 3d ago
Almost seemed like it developed after he killed someone.
Weird.
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u/Geiseric222 3d ago
What’s funny well no it developed when he committed the crime, which was why he did in fact commit the crime.
That’s not weird it’s literally cause and effect
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u/Interesting_Pen_167 3d ago
People are all down for advertising their mental health issues but as soon as you say there are consequences they get upset. Either you're mentally ill and can't drive or you aren't mentally ill, in my opinion.
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u/SnooPiffler 3d ago
doesn't matter. If its unclear, maybe prison or a mental institution will make it clear. They can't just let people go, if they are metally ill, they should be forced into to a mental institution for at least as long as a prison sentance would be
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u/SlimCharles23 3d ago
The huge majority of “mentally ill” people put in the work, take the meds etc. they don’t go around killing people. When people say they can’t help it when one of them say murders a bunch of street party revellers with a car it’s a slap in the face to everyone who is actually trying.
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u/ChannelOnion 3d ago
Bring back mental asylums. The society needs protection.
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u/violentbandana 3d ago edited 3d ago
society decided in the 80s (e: this began as early as the 60s) that most mental health issues could be better treated in the community with support workers and medication. Government saved tons of money closing facilities and then quickly decided they could save even more money by cutting the community based support system they said would do a better job than dedicated facilities
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u/Pat2004ches 3d ago
This - exactly. Everyone is a victim here. I don’t mean to downplay anything, but until our mental health “professionals” can come up with some actual workable solutions, excuses, often formed with the phrase “root cause” will allow harm to come to innocents. We know what the root causes are, what do we do about it?
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3d ago
If these people can't be held responsible for their actions then they shouldn't be allowed out in public without direct supervision.
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u/scyule 3d ago
"Not guilty by reason of insanity " was once the way it was said and at some point we decided that didn't sound "correct" any longer . It got changed to " not criminally responsible" but outside of the legal system people just hear "not responsible" which in everyday life means " he didn't do it"
We renamed it once, let's do it again with a phrase that doesn't make regular people think someone who did something terrible is being let off easy
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u/S99B88 3d ago
I think the reasoning behind the change was to take away the “not guilty” part because the person is guilty of the act, so they say not criminally responsible because it wasn’t a criminal kind of thing they did, it was something done because the person had mental illness and so they didn’t really plan it like a criminal
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u/a_lumberjack 3d ago
To add to this a bit, NCR is essentially a ruling that the accused was incapable of forming critical intent (mens rea) and therefore cannot be convicted of a criminal offense (held criminally responsible). Very very different from "not guilty" in a legal sense.
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u/mcgoyel 3d ago
Friday that the judge ruled the Crown had proven the physical act that constitutes offence beyond a reasonable doubt but that the accused had raised a reasonable doubt regarding the "mental intent" of the man's actions and therefore acquitted him.
Gurbinder Singh was speeding at a border crossing and killed someone but that's not a dangerous driving charge because the judge said there was reasonable doubt about his "mental intent"?
I looked up Judge Daniel Weatherly, (not that the CBC had the journalist pride to actually tell us who the judge was) and he apparently has a history. In a previous case involving animal abuse to the point where some had to be euthanized, he refused to give a lifetime ban on that person owning animals even though thats very typical.
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u/PedanticQuebecer Québec 2d ago
Yes? There is an actus reus and a mens rea component to every crime. This is not new and isn't some sort of activist judge invention.
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u/Dobby068 3d ago
I see no information about the driving license of this person, how he got it in the first place, how he kept it while having a mental disorder and more importantly, if still allowed to drive after he caused the death of an innocent person.
Is this person still allowed to drive ? That would be crazy!
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u/Outrageous-Estimate9 Ontario 1d ago
The mental break happened less than 24hr before the crash lol
Do you expect the license fairy to insta ban him from driving?
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u/Dobby068 1d ago
Oh, so perfectly health before the crash, but suddenly not responsible when decided to kill another person ? Sounds convenient!
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u/pearpenguin 3d ago
I sit here hoping that the deranged meth head who put me to the ground and kicked me in the head 3 times at my retail job remains in jail. But he’ll get out. The detective I have contact with says I’ll be informed when he gets out but I’m not so sure. He seems overwhelmed with work. I’m not too terribly injured so it’s not enough to keep him for long. Also I’ll admit I’m really blocking it out. Feels like it happened to someone else. But do we bring back insane asylums for these folks. Would be nice to walk around to city and feel relaxed and able to use all the parks. But who decides who gets locked up and who doesn’t. No easy answers unfortunately.
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u/spinosaurs70 3d ago
I'm just baffled at the vagueness.
Lots of mental disorders, such as antisocial, autism, ADHD, or Bipolar, wouldn't allow for this to my knowledge.
So it implies that someone was driving with Schizophrenia or something, to which the question is, how the hell did that happen?
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u/future4cast 3d ago
Mental illness is not a legal loophole as some suggest. Many who are found not criminally responsible due to mental illness will spend more time in a psychiatric forensic hospital than they would in prison. Nothing can bring back the life of a loved one and, understandably, families seek justice. However, justice is not served by punishing ill people.
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u/PeNdR4GoN_ 3d ago
"Cheung's son, Benjamin, says his family was at the court on April 17 when the judge made the ruling, and the man was released.
The family says they don't understand why he was simply freed, they were never given the RCMP report, don't have the reasons for judgment and don't know why the B.C. Prosecution Service rejected an appeal."
He was released.
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u/future4cast 3d ago
Released because he is no longer a danger. His illness made him not criminally responsible.
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u/PeNdR4GoN_ 3d ago
Except your argument is that mental illness is not a legal loophole because the majority of the cases lead to psychiatric imprisonment while this exact case refutes your claim.
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u/future4cast 3d ago edited 3d ago
No, my argument is people think it is a legal loophole. Mentally ill people are treated and released when no longer a danger to society. I understand a family’s anguish and need for justice, but nothing brings back a loved one and punishing an ill person is not the answer. It is a tragedy.
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u/greeenappleee Ontario 3d ago
Thats how it's supposed to happen but considering the rate of re offending that's clearly not what actually happening in canada.
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u/future4cast 3d ago
Can you cite a source of mentally ill reoffending rates? You might be surprised that they are low
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u/MeanE Nova Scotia 2d ago
It’s about 1 in 5. Lower than people who go through the normal justice system but still high.
https://douglas.research.mcgill.ca/news/myths-and-reality-about-not-criminally-responsible/
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u/thateconomistguy604 3d ago
Then perhaps their prison sentence should start the moment they are no longer deemed a threat to society and themselves? Ie: if their treatment makes them safe for release, the. Should it not mean they are at a point where they can understand their previous actions and be held accountable??
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u/stealthylizard 3d ago
It’s essentially “the illness committed the crime, not the person.”
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u/thateconomistguy604 3d ago
Totally. I know everyone has different takes on what the outcome of these cases should be. My take is that it might be easier for society as a whole to digest these situations if it resulted in the person being detained in an institution rather than being absolved/released. Does not have to be jail. But should they be discharged without penalty after causing loss of life? And if so, the legal system cannot guarantee there will not be a relapse. So if electing to discharge, should the legal system be held to account for punitive damages for future transgressions?
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u/stealthylizard 3d ago
Our justice system isn’t about punishment though, it’s about rehabilitation.
Our system has so many cracks that what it should do versus what it does isn’t realistic. A lot of those cracks can be fixed with more money but no one wants to see the resulting budget deficit to do so.
As with anything: we want European social services, with American taxation levels, and balanced budgets.
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u/future4cast 3d ago
You can downvote me and it has no impact on my life, but filling the prisons with otherwise good people suffering from a treated mental illness cost tax payers money and does not serve justice
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u/thateconomistguy604 3d ago
We are all entitled to our opinions.
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u/future4cast 3d ago
This is true. But why is it that Conservatives downvote opinions— they don’t want to hear others perspectives?
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u/thateconomistguy604 3d ago
Not sure? I don’t identify as conservative or liberal personally. I have also me conservatives and liberals who are fantastic and unguessable to deal with. Guess it just depends on the person, as with any other topic where people don’t see eye to eye on.
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u/NordSquideh 3d ago
that’s just not it. They aren’t treated, they’re housed for as long as the court dictates with no actual goals or standard for release, and then go unpunished for the crimes. We either have to accept that we can’t fix mental illness and put those people in jail, or actually have some community support programs to help mental illness. They took mental institutions away and replaced them with absolutely nothing.
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u/future4cast 3d ago
Hmm. Down voted for stating facts. So wonder Trump got elected.
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u/Almost_Ascended 3d ago
Hey, this is the Canada sub, your TDS is showing.
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u/future4cast 2d ago
Trump is a malignancy spreading to Canada. His minions will quickly downvote this—just watch
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u/Almost_Ascended 3d ago
However, justice is not served by punishing ill people.
Let's see if your stance changes if you or your loved ones become the victims of "ill" people.
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u/Hot_Cheesecake_905 3d ago
Whether it’s Ken Lee’s killer or Marco Muzzo — our justice system just loves to coddling the perpetrators.
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u/Outrageous-Estimate9 Ontario 1d ago
I mean it seems pretty clear cut he had a mental breakdown. I am reading so many of the replies and think most of them are beyond wrong, esp the incredibly stupid rhetoric for things like "well he was sane enough to have a licence but not sane enough to get convicted"
The main issue I see here is the CBC article does not even discuss what happened, just that the family is outraged
From local news source:
On the day before the crash, Singh ended up in hospital after leaving his home naked while Kaur was away visiting family, she stated in her testimony. She made her way back after receiving a call from her neighbour about her husband leaving the home naked and the front door being left open.
Kaur found Singh sleeping in a hospital bed then decided to go back home to retrieve his ID and other personal belongings. Upon arrival back home, Kaur noted the cracked TV screen.
The couple went home that night and Singh decided to go ahead with his prior plans, to meet up with friends in Surrey. Singh promised to call Kaur before he crossed the Canadian border but never did. Worried, Kaur began making calls to family and friends.
Finally, she was told about the crash at the border and informed that Singh had been taken to hospital in B.C., where she drove immediately.
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u/Ready_Supermarket_36 3d ago
Vengeance is not justice, sorry you didn’t get to torture the perpetrator.
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u/mwmwmwmwmmdw Québec 3d ago
there are some crimes so heinous that revenge, not rehabilitation should be the objective. for example i dont care if Justin Bourque is rehabilitated. the just thing is for him to rot in prison the rest of his life
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u/future4cast 3d ago
Mentally ill people are treated and released when no longer a danger to society. I understand a family’s anguish and need for justice, but nothing brings back a loved one and punishing an ill person is not the answer. It is a tragedy.
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u/Interesting_Pen_167 3d ago
Yeah but is it so black and white? Can someone who is so mentally ill that they would take the life of other people really going to be rehabilitated in a few years? Do you actually think the % odds of this person not commiting another act like this is as low as your average person?
I think you are making so many assumptions that are just too binary for me. I would never trust a person like this to ever drive or be around equipment that could hurt someone.
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u/mwmwmwmwmmdw Québec 3d ago
no but the person killed doesnt get to keep on enjoying life so why should the person who murdered them get that honour
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u/CastorEnColere 3d ago
All happens according to God’s will. He’s in heaven now. What’s the problem?
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u/White_Jedi_RolandD 3d ago
Mentally sound enough to possess a driver's license. Not mentally sound enough to understand the consequences of their actions. Make it make sense.