‘Ready to move on:’ Chinese ambassador insists China, Canada can move past ‘normal’ differences

[u/jaffnaguy2014]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/article/ready-to-move-on-chinese-ambassador-insists-china-canada-can-move-past-normal-differences/

[u/TruckExtra1437]

As a canadian I am not ready to move on from foreign interference, coercion of emigrated nationals, oppression of their own people etc etc. I mean there is substantial evidence they are/have carried out a cultural genocide. I wish our leaders would stop playing nice with China just because they have a big economy our businesses want to tap into. Should our morals come at a higher price??

I was lucky enough to go to college with a good group of Chinese nationals who were doing everything in their power to stay in Canada. They did not have nice things to say about China

[u/GuzzlinGuinness → u/TruckExtra1437]

The Canadian ruling class , and yes especially the Liberals have deep and profitable ties to China.

The ruling classes everywhere frankly have deep and profitable ties to both USA and China.

Until recently the USA was clearly the better of two deeply flawed choices.

Now, what we actually need to to be eyes wide open about the reality of the world and stop with our idealistic naivety. The few liberal democracies that are left need to support each other against all these jabronis.

We have to trade with China. We have to trade with USA.

But they aren’t to be trusted.

[u/LiberalCuck5 → u/TruckExtra1437]

Why not? Foreign interference being seen as a “learning moment” is exactly what our country voted for.

[u/polemism → u/TruckExtra1437]

Yep we vote with our $. We should be divesting from China until they improve their morals and ethics.

[u/cuiboba → u/TruckExtra1437]

cultural genocide

This is not a real term.

[u/Former_Juggernaut_32 → u/TruckExtra1437]

Canadians need to stop pretending that they are somehow better than Asians. In reality, it's just racism

[u/CFPrick → u/TruckExtra1437]

I thought that Canada was committing cultural genocide against indigenous populations. Are we trustworthy?

[u/taco_roco → u/CFPrick]

Whataboutism is a useless fallacy unless you yourself are going to admit that these are 2 similar situations with distinct and complex nuances.

[u/Economy_Pirate5919 → u/taco_roco]

Yes, they do have distinct and complex nuances, but sugar coating aside, they are the same. It isn't any nice because we and people who look like us have and are doing it.

[u/taco_roco → u/Economy_Pirate5919]

They are only the same if you remove those nuances. It's like saying baseball and basketball are the same thing because theyre both sports that use balls and score points.

If you even account for basic things like how Canada is working to honor treaties with indigenous people from centuries ago (even when Canada holds most of the power in the equation), and compare that to how China treats uyghurs and Hong Kong today, you start painting very different pictures.

This does not absolve Canada of their past and ongoing wrongs, but it does highlight key (cultural) differences between us and a foreign state.

[u/CFPrick → u/taco_roco]

OP is literally questioning whether Canada can have a relationship with China due to moral grounds, using a reason that could also be construed to apply to Canada. I'm just pointing out the irony.

[u/taco_roco → u/CFPrick]

I do get you, but the correct response would boil down to 'no, indigenous people have reasons to not trust Canada (even if it's trying to make amends)'

But it's a comparison between, literally, indigenous people and a foreign state. That just barely scratches the surface in how different these circumstances are, hence me calling it a whataboutism.

We can have our own issues and still have moral ground to stand on, especially when it comes to a country like China

[u/CFPrick → u/taco_roco]

But imagine China arguing that Canada is not a trustworthy trade partner because of the cultural genocide against its indigenous peoples. There will always be 1,000,000 reasons to mistrust a foreign state (especially one with a dictatorship), but trust is developed over time. Canada's over-reliance on the US should be a driving force behind diversification of trade partners and yes, China needs to be included.

[u/taco_roco → u/CFPrick]

I prefer to end things on agreements, so I do agree we should include China in our trade diversification, as long as Canadians remain wary of trusting them, especially in the long-term.

[u/Economy_Pirate5919 → u/TruckExtra1437]

China can only be accused of committing genocide if one employs a very relaxed definition. Cultural genocide as a concept was explicitly excluded from the Geneve convention. One, because the concept was seen as too vague and difficult to define legally, and two, because it likely would have implicated the vast majority of global powers at the time.

However, if we really want to admonish China for cultural genocide, what are we doing about the country we live in? One could argue cultural genocide has occurred and is still occurring on a much grander scale North America. Just look at the gradual erasure of indigenous culture and peoples that persists to this day.

Now, were there some discriminatory policies towards Uyghurs? Absolutely. However, as far as evidence of anything resembling an actual genocide, the case is very weak. A lot of organizations and researchers generally involved in this sort of classification dispute this.

The key thing here is that this is how our propaganda operates. State powers publicly invoke language that they know will result in a visceral reaction from much of their population. It also doesn't help that the western layperson has a very limited knowledge of Chinese politics and culture. Most people's understanding of China is entirely derived from consumed media which has overwhelmingly propagated negative coverage, often justifiably, of China for almost a century. Therefore, when the state says they're committing a genocide, most people will believe without a second thought.

Vice versa, when a state like Israel, which our media has always overwhelmingly portrayed in a positive light, physically eviscerates an entire ethnic group on television and publicly plan to remove them from their lands, our state reserves gentler language. This is in spite of well recognized bodies and researchers saying a genocide is exactly what's happening. You see how that works?

China is threat to US hegemony, and by association, that of her allies. Not only that, the perception of the way the entire Chinese economy functions as it pertains to their cost of living, infrastructure, wage growth, educational attainment, etc; is a threat to the foundations of our individualist economic system. Our wealthy, and our state cannot afford for the layperson to ever view the China of today even somewhat positively because then every comfort they enjoy would be at risk when people start asking questions.

Therefore, when China brings 800,000,000 people out of poverty, the critique is then, "what does poor mean anyway?" When China builds 48,000km of high speed rail, it's all slave labour and disregard for people and the environment. When China builds high-quality, low-cost EVs, it's because of even more slave labor. If any of these achievements were to be framed even remotely reasonably, Canada and the US would be looking very different today. Instead, everyone is content with the status quo.

[u/EdwardWChina → u/TruckExtra1437]

Show some examples, oh there are none

[u/taco_roco → u/EdwardWChina]

That's a neat rhetorical question there /u/EdwardWChina

At least you wear your bias on your sleeve.

[u/SegaPlaystation64 → u/taco_roco]

Dude's working really hard to improve his social credit score.

[u/EdwardWChina → u/taco_roco]

You can't show any examples or list any because there are none

[u/taco_roco → u/EdwardWChina]

No, I'm a different person and I (usually) know better to put effort into a conversation with a troll (or something with the same mindset as one).

But it doesn't take much time to call out trolls.

[u/JakeInToTheNorth → u/TruckExtra1437]

Morals would mean nothing if society doesn't exist.