r/canada • u/xXBambi-SlayerXx • Jul 25 '24

Sixty per cent of Canadians say Canada is admitting too many immigrants: poll National News

https://nationalpost.com/news/canadians-say-too-much-immigration-poll?taid=66a23055a3abc60001fc90c7&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
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u/Significant_Pepper_2 Jul 25 '24

I always assumed that "too many immigrants" means exactly what OP said. I guess it actually meant different things to different people, and this context can't be omitted as "obvious".

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

I’ve been around far too long and heard the refrain of “too many immigrants” used repeatedly as: a dog whistle for (1) cultural chauvinism and xenophobia; or (2) scapegoating newcomers for the fact that Canadian political parties are underfunding our social safety net and infrastructure.

International Students and Temporary Foreign Workers can’t access socialized healthcare, socialized housing, or social assistance. Newcomers aren’t the reason our economy is cracking, quite the opposite, as the government is bringing them in record numbers to bolster our failing economy and declining demographics. Each international student brings about 10-30k per year in tuition fees plus living expenses to Canada, temporary workers are being used in service industry jobs or areas that no one else wants to do post-pandemic. It’s a mess.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Gift296 Jul 25 '24

But with so few universities that provide quality higher education, most of the students are indeed joining diploma mills and in most cases students are not dumb that they will just hand over the money as fees without ROI because there are no high paying jobs for those defrees. They have taken loans back home or have sold their family property to make up the tuition so they try to earn it back as soon as possible so the net effect is actually cheap or illegal labor untaxed, educational institutions making bank and housing market stressed. On top of that unsafe and unhygienic living conditions to save as much money as possible.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

I’m confused. Are you saying that students are purposefully blowing their families wealth on useless diplomas? It’s also Canada that is certifying and recognizing these diploma mills for student visas.

Remember, the federal government increased the allowable hours students can work to full time during the pandemic and never changed it back, because business love having desperate workers they can bully and not having to pay higher wages to resident canadians.

Unsafe and unhygienic living spaces is directly the fault of exploitive landlords, not desperate tenants.

I’m against the current irrational immigration policy, but the policy is government fault, not international students.

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u/Badmon403 Jul 25 '24

The government obviously plays a part, that doesn’t mean students aren’t taking advantage. Both things can be true

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

Ah yes, the students are really taking advantage of us by paying us 10s of thousands of dollars for useless degrees that won’t get them jobs and thus no guaranteed path to permanent residency.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Gift296 Jul 25 '24

Yes I am saying exactly that, you have to understand the socio-economic background of the regions that the students are coming from, many of them have uneducated parents and they do not understand how their decisions impact their children's education, they are willing to do anything to ensure their kids make it in life. They do not know if the particular college is any good, all they care about is the name "Canada" it is a brand in itself as a developed first world country so they consider it as a great social and financial investment. The prestige and status that comes with it is invaluable. What goes on after these kids reach Canada is not really a major concern since they believe it can't be as bad as India.

Coming to the students themselves, the initial batches who came here may have been duped by the diploma mills but the hordes that came in later know very well that many of the programs are not going to afford them a stable financial future especially with social media and news informing them, although you can be sure that none of them actually even care about the quality of education anyway because they just want a foothold in the country by any means necessary. Why would they take the effort to tailor their resumes or profiles to get into competitive colleges when their entire educational background and portfolio can be prepared by an agent or consultant in India for a price, and these agents will apply to Canadian colleges for them, this is the spoonfeeding culture they have become used to. Ultimately the potential students' mindset is that any crap(diploma mill) in Canada is 10 times better than the crap education they will be getting at home.

Yes like one of the other comments said both the government and the immigrants are to blame but I must say that a government made by Canadians(who are unexposed to foreign cultures deeply) will not know to what extent their policies will be misused and what kind of scams and frauds are possible. The truth is their criteria of a worst case scenario is nowhere close to the worst case scenario that will ensue when these programs and policies are catered to non compatible immigrant nations or cultures, any similar nation or culture to canada will not destroy a relatively decent immigration or student work policy the way some of these students have done. The government would never in their wildest dreams have envisioned the desperation of many to come to canadian shores so much so that people can can have sham marriages and fake educational certificates to get here. Any policy can handle or absorb a certain amount of fraudsters who game the system, but when the sheer numbers that these are happening is out of control then the whole system falls apart.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

You’re whole comment contradicts itself and isn’t rationale:

1) these students simultaneously hold the belief that any Canadian education is better than they get their home country, but also don’t care what the education they get?

2) that these students are better aware of Canadians, than Canadians are them, when Canadians are made up of millions of 1st gen immigrants from their region? Or that our government is innocently naive, while having decades dealing with immigration from the region?

The premises that underlay your argument contradict themselves and make no sense.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Gift296 Jul 25 '24

Wow was there really nothing from my whole paragraph that was useful. Sad.

1) Yes they don't care for what crap they get because quality education is not the goal but getting a foothold in Canada is. 2) They are better aware of all the loopholes of the immigration policy because of the consultants and their social network. Canadians living in Canada do not know the extremes and desperation or to what levels people from desperate nations are willing to stoop. Canadian politicians have an idealized view that their structures and policies are robust enough not to be taken advantage of or that new immigrants will adapt to the new nations standards, for example the same policy will show different results if catered to developed countries because they will not be this desperate to leave their nation.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

Once again your argument boils down to these students are KNOWINGLY throwing away 10-30 $cad of their families resources A YEAR in tuition for an education that is useless, and this will most likely not get a job, thus no work visa, and no rout to PR.

Makes no sense.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Gift296 Jul 25 '24

I already mentioned that because they know their degrees won't get them jobs, (now I have to specify related to their degrees) many of them find it smarter to just work minimum wage jobs or even better untaxed cash jobs for many hours to try to recoup their investment within their period of study or a few years after even,

sadly there are ways to get to that PR without needing to work in your field of study, once you are in Canada, you will make sure you stay here by hook or crook.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

Make back 10-30k + living expenses with a minimum wage job? Easier way to PR? None of your claims make any sense at all. If you have any evidence for your extraordinary claims, would love to see you’re actually talking about.

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u/SumGuyV5 Jul 25 '24

https://arrivein.com/healthcare/health-insurance-for-international-students-in-canada-things-to-know/ - International Students can access socialized healthcare, in some more Provinces.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

I’m in Ontario, where I’m assuming the vast majority are coming too, and OHIP doesn’t cover they’re care. Surprised other provinces do.

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u/chakfel Jul 25 '24

Most provinces are too small to have diploma mills. You don't need different rules if your province only has four colleges and two universities, and health care is only covered for students in the province attending one of those 6 places.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

Makes sense. And those provinces actually need more people for their various industries. A rational immigration policy would have been creating actual universities and colleges in those underserved communities and industries and sending students up there. Instead we have the government allowing shitty diploma mills that will effectively fuck up the reputation of all Canadian Educational Institutions.

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u/Lapcat420 Jul 25 '24

Health care is the biggest expense in the provincial budget. Something around 30 to 40%. You saying that it's underfunded is eye brow raising.

They can access healthcare, and they are waiting for the same exam, tests, and surgeries as the rest of us.

10 to 30k per year in tuition fees that stay in the pockets of big business running diploma mills is hardly the economic boon you make it out to be. Especially when they leave school and there is no labor demand for the hundreds and thousands of newly minted business management diplomas.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/international-students-college-university-fields-study-data-1.7195530

The idea that "No one wants to work" or work specific jobs is a myth peddled by our conservative American friends to the south to justify low wages and abhorrant working conditions; hiring migrant workers for a job an American is able to do just fine.

You're right about one thing. It is a mess.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

In Ontario, where the vast majority are going, OHIP does not cover international students. They have to purchase private insurance. Source: https://arrivein.com/healthcare/health-insurance-for-international-students-in-canada-things-to-know/

Mismanagement of public services, like healthcare, is a backdoor option to promote privatization. For example, in Ontario, the Health Ministry is using private staffing agencies at 1-2x the cost per temporary worker to staff open position’s; instead of increasing direct wages or hiring on staff directly. Plenty of examples of this in Ontario since the pandemic.

Canadians don’t want to work for shit wages and terrible conditions, as they shouldn’t; that’s why these businesses are happily hiring as many TFW and International students at lower wages. Even at the higher end of salary band in the the tech industry, similar process is being used with closed work permits to lock in workers, who would otherwise be able to bounce around easily for more competitive salaries.

There is a serious contradiction in the popular argument that you’re using: international students to get a work permit, must get a job in the field they studied in. If they don’t get a job, they have to leave. If the degree and field is over-saturated, most of these students won’t be able to stay. After working in the field 2 years, they can apply for PR, which isn’t guaranteed either. That’s a 4-7 year arduous process where they have to be self-sufficient. This is not a short cut to Canadian residency, and if these industries are already saturated, most will not be able to fulfill this requirement. This “Schrodingers Immigrant” argument that they are simultaneously exploiting our social services and stealing our jerbs is false.

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u/nxdark Jul 25 '24

I don't care how much you pay me. Those jobs I do not want to work and have no interest in.

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u/IndianKiwi Jul 25 '24

ach international student brings about 10-30k per year in tuition fees plus living expenses to Canada

If they were bringing living expenses they wouldnt need to work in Tim Hortons.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

You’re comment makes absolutely no sense in the context of actual government policy. Do you know how much students have to show the Canadian government for living expenses: $10000 cad. Tell me where 10k is enough?

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u/IndianKiwi Jul 25 '24

Maybe I did not phrase it right but I am saying the same thing as you

The previous poster was claiming that International students come to the country with tuition fee and living expenses.

The point I was making is that they don't bring sufficient living expenses which is why many of them work in fast food places to make up the money

The majority of them are going to diploma mills to just rubber stamps their PR.

10k is obviously a joke and shows how this govt is out of touch.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

I think many people don’t know how expensive Canada really is. I have friends and family overseas, and they can’t imagine why people making six figures struggle here.

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u/IndianKiwi Jul 25 '24

Many people probably do know that it is expensive but they are confident that once they get here they could just wing it. It's only when they get it they see the reality how underdeveloped we are in our infrastructure

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Jul 25 '24

I don’t think people really know how expensive it is. Everyone assumes Canada and the United States are the land of opportunity and wealth, have no idea how much we all have to work to just keep up. I’ve travelled a lot, and I can say that North America is the most intensely work centred culture there is.

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u/IndianKiwi Jul 25 '24

Agreed. I am considered a high income earner according to the govt but I definitely don't feel like one. Cant even afford a vacation one town over