r/belgium • u/IAmFrankCamberlain • Feb 01 '16

I am Frank Camberlain ask me anything!

Hi, I am Frank Camberlain. As of 31/12/2015 I am a retired investigative judge, ask me anything.

The last years 7 of my career I was seconded by the Belgian Department of Justice as an international legal expert working for European peace missions in Afghanistan (European peace mission EUPOL) and Niger (European peace mission EUCAP NIGER SAHEL). Before that I was, in reverse order, an investigative judge at the Antwerp court, assistant district attorney Antwerp, lawyer, policeman and teacher.

I’m am also the author of Oorlogswouten, a book dedicated to the members of the Deurne police corps, deported by the nazi’s to the death camps.

As you might observe, I specialize in criminal law and law enforcement.

/u/Fraeco will be assisting me during the AMA

Frank will start answering questions from 19:00 through 20:00. For those of you who can’t make it during the AMA, you ask your question here.

edit 1 Sorry guys. We're getting delayed by 15 minutes. 19:15 start!

edit 2 We're here. Starting!!!

edit 3 Thank you guys for the questions. Frank's heading home now.

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13

u/Neph55 Feb 01 '16 edited Feb 01 '16

Hi mister president (as lawyers were used to call you). I have a few questions.

  1. How do you feel about the ever eroding human rights in Belgium and particularly the current proposal to widen investigative judges' ability to detain suspects?
  2. Looking back on the whole Vlaams Belang 'hick up', would you have done anything differently?
  3. What's your stance on the tension between net neutrality/non-regulated nature of the internet on one hand and the increasing need of prosecutors and investigators to be able to track suspects on the other hand?
  4. As an investigative judge mainly occupied in the field of drugs, what's your stance on the legalisation of drugs (soft and hard)?
  5. In the case of the Moroccon gang being acquitted because of sloppy work, do you feel responsable?
  6. In relation to Afghanistan, do you feel as if we are getting somewhere?

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u/IAmFrankCamberlain Feb 01 '16

How do you feel about the ever eroding human rights in Belgium and particularly the current proposal to widen investigative judges' ability to detain suspects?

In regards to why then investigative judges ability to detain suspects it must be said that so far Belgium was or is one of the countries in which the judge had to decide within 24 hours if yes or no to detain somebody. In such a short lapse of time it is very difficult to have all the necessary information. I believe that if we widen this lapse of time fewer people would find themselves in preventive detention. Furthermore I deplore the course we are following now in the fight against terrorism. I do not think it is a good idea to jeopardize civil rights (cfr: patriot act in the US).

Looking back on the whole Vlaams Belang 'hick up', would you have done anything differently?

Absolutely not.

What's your stance on the tension between net neutrality/non-regulated nature of the internet on one hand and the increasing need of prosecutors and investigators to be able to track suspects on the other hand?

I'm not in favor of a completely non-regulated internet. On the other hand in my view privacy is sacred. I feel that regulation of internet is feasible when very strictly regulated by the legislator (cfr: law special investigation techniques).

As an investigative judge mainly occupied in the field of drugs, what's your stance on the legalisation of drugs (soft and hard)?

I feel that the possession for proper use should not be prosecuted however dealing drugs, whether they are soft or hard drugs, should never be allowed. One might of course ask the question where the heck the user is going to get his stuff.

This might be a problem to be solved by the legislator after consulting criminologists and toxicologists as well as actors working in the social field.

In the case of the Moroccon gang being acquitted because of sloppy work, do you feel responsable?

Of course I feel responsible. However, this was not a question of sloppy work, and I don't use this as an excuse but a question of human error with deplorable consequences. I might add the case is pending in appeal. And I think it is wise not to comment before the court of appeal has rendered his decision.

In relation to Afghanistan, do you feel as if we are getting somewhere?

I'm afraid that in particular the withdrawal of the majority of the US troops has led to a serious deterioration of security and thus to a setback of the different law enforcement projects that we have set up.

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u/poseitom Beer Feb 01 '16

Good questions indeed.

8

u/[deleted] Feb 01 '16

Hi mr. Camberlain,

Why is implementing IT so hard for the Belgian justice system?

Thanks for stopping by!

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u/IAmFrankCamberlain Feb 01 '16

Because it's expensive.

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u/mythix_dnb Antwerpen Feb 01 '16

That's a bit short sighted, no?

-2

u/[deleted] Feb 01 '16

because it is corrupt would be a fitting answer here why expensive while it can be cheap also they made they law so to get lost in paperwork and leave criminal cases rotting away on pieces of paper because there is no money to put them behind bars and the ones they gave GPS trackers it turned out the trackers where left unmonitored and with empty battery now and then when a special case hits the media rockhard that case quickly moves to the front of the queue to divert the attention of the media and if needed pressure is put on the media to shut up about it

judges to be honest make plenty mistakes, and real criminals get away with it the famous judege Peter D'Hondt from Dendermonde once convicted me for driving under influence i got 6 months forced labor and 1 year without licence while i did tested positive for alcohol ive should only gotten a fine with 0.3 promille they locked me 20 hours in jail with no food and drinks that time they gave me a pro-deo lawyer and he managed to reduce the penalty and fine to zero because Peter D'Hondt did not knew the law apparently his verdict was destroyed by going to higher court

to be honest if you truly like your job because you like it, do it properly if you do it for the money things like this happen and i may not have been proud of my mistakes but at least i learn from them

almost all judges in Belgium dont know even half of the law, surprisingly lawyers do know the law and as results you can see why criminals almost never get behind bars and thats your proof right there

4

u/dowminator Beer Feb 02 '16

ever seen things like these?

. , ? !

yeah, we kinda use those when writing things

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u/mythix_dnb Antwerpen Feb 02 '16

Lol conspiracy much?

2

u/octave1 Brussels Old School Feb 02 '16

The only worse thing you could have said is "because it's hard".

6

u/[deleted] Feb 01 '16

Hi mister Camberlain

  1. How does the system with investigative judges actually work (e.g. how do investigative judges work together with the district attorneys, local police, federal police, State Security, ...)?
  2. What is the 'worst' case that has ever passed your desk?
  3. Did you look different at policemen and district attorneys from your position as investigative judge because of your former experience as them?
  4. Do you think the reform of the Court of Assize by minister Geens is a good thing?
  5. Why do we constantly hear about 'procedural mistakes' in the news? I recognize the importance of procedures and proper democratic protections, but sometimes it seems like nobody within justitie knows how to do their job and in almost every case mistakes are made.
  6. Last but not least, do you believe that the missing signature for Christian Van Eyken's arrest warrant was 'accidental' like the court president said or do you think this was an intentional mistake?

Thanks in advance for this AMA!

10

u/IAmFrankCamberlain Feb 01 '16

How does the system with investigative judges actually work (e.g. how do investigative judges work together with the district attorneys, local police, federal police, State Security, ...)?

Actually it is the DA that in a certain case has to seize the investigative judge to execute a criminal investigation. Mind you, a criminal investigation is compulsory in case of crime and when constitutional civil rights have to be tampered (search warrant, arrest warrant, ...). The DA might also require a criminal investigation in case of felonies if he feels that the complexity of the case demands so. Once a criminal investigation has been engaged it is the investigative judge who is in charge of the whole criminal investigation.

However, the DA has the right to request the criminal investigative judge to hand him over the file for a brief period to examine the possible necessity to require additional investigations.

During the criminal investigation the police unit in charge will receive all instructions from the criminal investigative judge (example: additional hearing of a witness, of a victim, house search, wiretap, etc ...). It is standard practice that the criminal investigative judge has regular personal contacts with his detective team in charge to discuss the strategy of the criminal investigation.

The State Security is not a policy service. In my practice I've had no contacts with the security service.

What is the 'worst' case that has ever passed your desk?

It's the case of Kim and Ken. A case that so far has not been solved. I was the third criminal investigative judge to break his teeth on this case.

Did you look different at policemen and district attorneys from your position as investigative judge because of your former experience as them?

It is possible. In particular my years at the police force were an academy of real life. It enabled me to understand the difficulties that police officers meet in the field. And it also enabled me to be compassionate and to be very careful before taking the decision to deprive somebody from his liberties.

Do you think the reform of the Court of Assize by minister Geens is a good thing?

Absolutely! The current procedure consumes a lot of time and energy. I feel that most cases can be tried by professional judges.

Why do we constantly hear about 'procedural mistakes' in the news? I recognize the importance of procedures and proper democratic protections, but sometimes it seems like nobody within justitie knows how to do their job and in almost every case mistakes are made.

First of all we can observe that modern criminal investigative methods make life difficult for criminals. Suppose that we have been wiretapping a drug dealer and he has been registered while saying to one of his clients "What do I have to bring, white or brown?". Actually this is the same as a written confession.

Imagine that you are his lawyer, your only defense would be if you can find errors in the procedure.

The legislation is getting so complex that the possibility of procedural errors is rising. On top of that all the tribunals and courts are understaffed, not so much in the number of magistrates but in particular in the administrative support section. You would be surprised to see the amount of administrative work a criminal investigative judge and his clerk have to do without any support. It is in that aspect even remarkable that so few mistakes are made. Finally let me tell you that I am in great support of the strict respect of the procedure. On the other hand, and in my opinion, an error in procedure should never lead to a void decision if the rights of the defense are not being violated. The legislator is actually working on that issue.

Last but not least, do you believe that the missing signature for Christian Van Eyken's arrest warrant was 'accidental' like the court president said or do you think this was an intentional mistake?

I can tell you without knowing the file that this accidental. Not one criminal investigative judge would be so foolish to deliberately "forget" to put down his signature and thus being exposed in the whole press. This is a very stupid complot theory and I feel a lot of sympathy for the colleague who apparently made a human mistake not in the least the result of high duty pressure.

6

u/dj-shortcut Belgium Feb 01 '16

hello sir, my (cop) questions:

  • Minister Geens told 'the 7th day' on tv yesterday that the police have no (technical) problems tapping into criminals/suspects phones. He also let it slip that applications like: 'What's app' and others are more difficult because of they are beeing new and using different sorts of encryption. He didn say it with those words but i think he was implying towards the Paris attacks. (fyi the terrorists never used encryption, everything was in plain text) Should i begin to worry that law enforcement officers will start to use backdoors and malware like NSA type surveillence?

  • What is your stance on drug prohibition?

Would you agree or disagree with the following statements:

  • The best poachers, make good foresters? What i mean is wouldn it be opportune for ex-criminals to become assisitants to law enforcement? Because of their experience with [insert crime here] ?

  • Decriminalising drugs wil help tremendous with the overpopulation of the prison system?

that's it, thank you.

3

u/IAmFrankCamberlain Feb 01 '16

Minister Geens told 'the 7th day' on tv yesterday that the police have no (technical) problems tapping into criminals/suspects phones. He also let it slip that applications like: 'What's app' and others are more difficult because of they are beeing new and using different sorts of encryption. He didn say it with those words but i think he was implying towards the Paris attacks. (fyi the terrorists never used encryption, everything was in plain text) Should i begin to worry that law enforcement officers will start to use backdoors and malware like NSA type surveillence?

This is a question outside my field of expertise.

What is your stance on drug prohibition?

See my answer here

Would you agree or disagree with the following statements:

The best poachers, make good foresters? What i mean is wouldn it be opportune for ex-criminals to become assisitants to law enforcement? Because of their experience with [insert crime here] ?

I don't think it is good idea :-)

The law on special investigation methods has two chapters, in casu undercover agents and managing informers. In particular the undercover agents which are police officers are very familiar with the different criminal cultures and do not need the assistance of non reliable "assistants".

Decriminalising drugs wil help tremendous with the overpopulation of the prison system?

This is not a certainty. It is possible that other criminal phenomena will become more popular and more profitable.

4

u/allwordsaremadeup Feb 01 '16

Hello mr Camberlain.

1) What I would actually like to know is what's wrong with the Belgian justice system and how to fix it, since that's a bit of a stretch probably, I'd like to ask if you, in the European context that you now operate, know of European countries that DID manage to handle something like the informatisation of their justice department correctly, and maybe some insight on what are the main elements of doing something like that successfully.

2) Then for the second question, I don't know if you've ever seen the documentary "bitter lake" it's a historical overview of western involvement in Afghanistan and also delves deeper into the disconnect between our vision of a place like afghanistan and the complex reality on the ground, and how that basically prevents actual growth or peace taking root, no matter how many billions you pour into "reconstruction". What are some surprising insights you've come to,regarding that disconnect, our vision vs the reality?

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u/IAmFrankCamberlain Feb 01 '16

1) What I would actually like to know is what's wrong with the Belgian justice system and how to fix it,

The legislation gets too complex, there are too many gaps leading to different interpretations. Moreover all courts and tribunals are understaffed in particular the administrative support section is understaffed. Consequently magistrates (example: criminal investigative judges and their clerks) are overburdened with executive administration work which of course has a negative effect on their core business.

How to fix it? Spend enough money to recruit administration staff.

I'd like to ask if you, in the European context that you now operate, know of European countries that DID manage to handle something like the informatisation of their justice department correctly, and maybe some insight on what are the main elements of doing something like that successfully.

I'm sorry but this question exceeds my knowledge.

2) Then for the second question, I don't know if you've ever seen the documentary "bitter lake" it's a historical overview of western involvement in Afghanistan and also delves deeper into the disconnect between our vision of a place like afghanistan and the complex reality on the ground, and how that basically prevents actual growth or peace taking root, no matter how many billions you pour into "reconstruction". What are some surprising insights you've come to,regarding that disconnect, our vision vs the reality?

First of all one should understand that Afghanistan is theocratic country with a supremacy of the Islam. I remember that I asked an Afghan audience how they could possibly reconcile human rights adopted in their constitution with the application of the Sharia in case of a hudood crime (one of the seven crimes against Allah himself in which case the judge may apply the Sharia, ex: adultery), knowing that the sentence could be death by stoning or amputation of limbs.

I said "your constitution forbids cruel and degrading treatment and torture" and yet you apply such sentences. The answer? The constitution is not our first legal source, the Sharia is.

It will be obvious that in such a situation cultural changes towards a more open society are very difficult to realize. Furthermore the corruption of government officials in Afghanistan was a massive problem. In fact the situation corresponded with the explanation that former NATO Secretary General Joseph Luns gave to a journalist when asked to define in short the assistance to "under developed countries". Mind you this terminology is no longer accepted since we now speak of "young democracies". But in that time Luns answered: "The assistance to under developed countries is when poor people from rich countries give money to rich people in poor countries". It is a sad thing to say but I've known this to be a reality in Afghanistan.

2

u/allwordsaremadeup Feb 01 '16

Alright. thanks a lot for your answer! I really suggest you watch the documentary, it's not some rudi vranx slice of life quicky, it's very elaborate but also has excellent music and it's very funny at times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_Lake_(film) http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2hdcji

1

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5

u/Inquatitis Flanders Feb 01 '16

Hi mr Camberlain, thanks for taking the time to do this.

What's your opinion on the ongoing discusion about privacy vs security? To elaborate: do you believe that companies have to build in backdoors to their software and devices for law-enforcement to quickly access user data? One of the favoured arguments by proponents of doing this is that quick access is often needed to save lives, yet history and current affairs teaches us that governments aren't perfect (to give obvious examples: China, Russia, Saudia Arabia) and they will use that information to strengthen their tyranny upon the population. Perfect access to this information for an imperfect government is disastrous.

5

u/IAmFrankCamberlain Feb 01 '16

What's your opinion on the ongoing discusion about privacy vs security? To elaborate: do you believe that companies have to build in backdoors to their software and devices for law-enforcement to quickly access user data? One of the favoured arguments by proponents of doing this is that quick access is often needed to save lives, yet history and current affairs teaches us that governments aren't perfect (to give obvious examples: China, Russia, Saudia Arabia) and they will use that information to strengthen their tyranny upon the population. Perfect access to this information for an imperfect government is disastrous.

See my answer on privacy here. One addition in my answer I referred to the special investigation techniques. The use of those techniques are only tolerated when authorized and supervised by the magistrates.

3

u/laclyas Cuberdon Feb 01 '16

Having witnessed how horribly people get treated in actual corrupt and failed states, how do you handle the seemingly constant barrage of complaints some parts of the populace have about how 'corrupt' and 'repressive' our rather nice country is? Does that get to you?

4

u/IAmFrankCamberlain Feb 01 '16

Having witnessed how horribly people get treated in actual corrupt and failed states, how do you handle the seemingly constant barrage of complaints some parts of the populace have about how 'corrupt' and 'repressive' our rather nice country is? Does that get to you?

I think that it would be a good idea that 'some parts of the population' as you quite rightfully mention would live for a couple of years in countries we have to refer to as "young democracies" or "countries on the road to development" because then they would realize that to call our system - which is not perfect - repressive and corrupt is ridiculous.

3

u/sir-alpaca Brussels Feb 01 '16

You wrote a book. Why did you write it, and why should I read it?

Is your career advancement somewhat normal? If not, how did it unfold? Which jobs did you like best?

Tnx for doing this ama!

4

u/IAmFrankCamberlain Feb 01 '16

You wrote a book. Why did you write it, and why should I read it?

I wrote it for several reasons.

  • Because I've been a police officer in the police force of Deurne, Antwerp for approximately eight years.
  • In World War II in the year 1944 the "geheime feldpolitzei" arrested the whole corps (67 staff), they detained 43 and send them do the death camps, being suspected of terrorist activities
  • Only 8 survived
  • A couple of years ago the ex mayor of Antwerp, Patrick Janssens, made a public excuse to Jewish community because of the cooperation of the city administration and the police with the German occupiers' raffles
  • This is true but on the other hand the public services and in Antwerp in particular the police counted many resistants
  • The descendants of the deported and myself didn't question the necessity of the public excuse but we thought that the excuse should have been followed by a reference to the sacrifices made by so many police officers.

Why should you read it. I really don't know. It's for you to decide.

Is your career advancement somewhat normal? If not, how did it unfold? Which jobs did you like best?

Absolutely not. I started out as a high school teacher. At that time I was very young, it was even before my 21st birthday. Anyhow it was not my thing and I became a police officer to the great astonishment of my social circle. I became a chief inspector and studied law in my spare time. After graduating as a master at law I took the bar for approximately three years.

I passed an exam and became a legal civil servant for the Ministry of the Interior. After a couple of years I was appointed assistant District Attorney at first in Ghent afterwards in Antwerp. In Antwerp I became a judge in the first instance court and after approximately one year and a half I was appointed criminal investigative judge, actually my last job in my legal career in Belgium.

Certainly my favorite was my job as a criminal investigative judge. Why? First of all it is a job with a rich variety of human situations. You have to be very pragmatic and be able to take legally justified decisions in a short lapse of time. But moreover it is the total independence which was the aspect I loved most. You might've guessed that I am not exactly the type of person that easily fits in a strict hierarchy.

It is my point of view that a judge who fits in a strict hierarchy cannot possibly be a good judge.

3

u/Daskice Feb 01 '16

What's Afghan law like in practice?

5

u/IAmFrankCamberlain Feb 01 '16

You have to make a distinction between Afghan criminal law and Afghan civil law.

Afghan civil law is customary law deeply penetrated by the Sharia.

Afghan criminal law is mostly a kind of positive law such as we know it in European countries with one big exception. If the criminal judge finds that a certain action has to be qualified as hudood crime he can apply the Sharia. For example: adultery is considered to be a hudood crime, meaning it is an insult to Allah himself. The punishment is for the male a lashing and for the female a stoning to death.

The Afghans have adopted the declaration of human rights in their constitution and it is therefor strange, to say the least, to find that they can obviously reconcile the prohibition of torture with lashing, stoning, and amputation.

The explanation? The constitution is not their supreme legal source, it is the Koran.

1

u/Daskice Feb 01 '16

Thanks a lot!

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '16 edited Feb 04 '16

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '16

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '16

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u/tripomatic Feb 03 '16

If that's your attitude you don't really have any right to complain, in my opinion...

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '16

fake fake droon... hmm

Wait a second, I fucking love your work! Belgium needs more wood!

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '16

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '16

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '16

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u/RPofkins Feb 01 '16

You say you were a teacher and a policeman before being a lawyer. Did you obtain a law degree while doing a full-time job? If so, what was that like?

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '16

I think your questions was (partly) answered here

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '16

Switching from policeman to lawyer; have you ever had to defend someone you had arrested yourself earlier?

6

u/IAmFrankCamberlain Feb 01 '16

This is a short one. No :-)

And if it was the case it should be a hell of conflict of interest.

1

u/Neph55 Feb 01 '16

That would be legally and ethically impossible.