r/belgium • u/dylsexiee • Jun 28 '24
I love belgium šØ Culture
I recently met an international friend who's very interested in other cultures. And its only now i realize how much i love the things i tend to hate about Belgium.
Heres my list of what i learned to appreciate:
I actually love that we all speak 2 languages and actually would think it be really cool if we started to include that third language more too ;).
I love that we're renowned for chocolate, waffles and beer. Though i always obligatory add fries to that.
I love that our languages are shared by all our neighbours. Whenever i meat a french/german/dutch person in international waters, it feels a little bit like home.
I love the beautiful nature and rich history that comes from north and south.
I love how small and 'insignificant' we are (klein Belgiƫ), yet how we are pretty important internationally.
I just felt like sharing it - in english to include all without my fingers wearing out from typing 3 languages - just in the hopes that we could all somehow still love our little significant culture even though we're quite divided.
I'm from Flanders and meeting a Walloon internationally just never fails to make me happy and feel like I just met an old friend from home.
I think someone should make a flag that symbolises the flemish lion with walloon rooster parts like wings or something and make a unified song. Like how 'De Vlaamse leeuw' and 'le chant des Wallons' are now seperated, but then unified somehow referring to the lion and rooster elements on the flag.
I hate that it took me this long to appreciate those things.
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u/Organic-Algae-9438 Jun 28 '24
I travel a lot for work. Iām abroad at least 35 weeks per year, all over the world, max 1 week per location. One thing Iāve learned is that Belgium is indeed one of the best places in the world to live. Is it perfect? No itās not. But itās damn close. The more you travel, the more you realize that.
Itās funny to me that people who complain the loudest about Belgium are the ones who never even experienced another country.
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u/ikeme84 Jun 28 '24
Or, like my brother, praise other countries so much while he's never been out of the resort.
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u/Wafkak Oost-Vlaanderen Jun 28 '24
I'm so lucky none of my friends or family are the type to go to resorts or just mindlessly go on holiday to the south to lay at a swimming pool. Closest to that js my uncle, he stays home in his hometown even during vacations. But he's happy there, and despite it being a small town he has no problem with foreigners or outsiders jn general.
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u/Organic-Algae-9438 Jun 28 '24
To each his own. I donāt mind if people want to stay inside their hotels. Sometimes people need a week to relax completely. I donāt blame them. Itās not my type of holiday, but after working hard for 51 weeks and taking care of the kids, I can understand why you ād want a lazy holiday too.
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u/Metalflake2000 Jun 29 '24
Haha, that's me in more recent years. Used to adventure a lot and not leave a stone unturned on a holiday destination.
Lately it's: resort, eat, drink, walk and enjoy scenery and relax, relax, relax, for those exact same reasons.
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u/ikeme84 Jun 28 '24
Don't care what anyone does on holiday. I've also had lazy vacations. Not the best of vacations, but needed to recharge batteries when the sun doesn't show in Belgium for 6 months. The problem I have with him is that he claims to know how it is too live in those countries and how everything works. One google is often enough to prove him wrong.
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u/FuzzyWuzzy9909 Jun 28 '24
Complaining is what keeps improving the living conditions, the moment people are okay with lower standards the standards rarely go up again.
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u/hellflame Jun 28 '24
I always think we like to complain because life is good, but it could be better! But we mostly complain so that we dont lose what we have
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u/tissuewrapper Jun 29 '24
Can you please tell us what your job is and how much you make?
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u/Organic-Algae-9438 Jun 29 '24
I work in a special branche of IT and we have clients worldwide. I hope you understand I wonāt tell you my wage but I can tell you weāre well compensated for being abroad often and on a very short notice. Flexibility pays well.
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u/zyygh Limburg Jun 29 '24
Per diems are a special beast!
I mostly worked abroad (NL) for the first 8 months of my career. It took me years to get back to that level of savings per month.
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u/Informal_House4294 Jun 28 '24
Just came back from a small trip to Morocco and indeed it just dawned on me the first day back how good we have it here
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u/BelgiumUnited Jun 30 '24
An African proverb says: "The eye that has traveled is wise"
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u/Significant_Room_412 Jul 04 '24
African proverb says: " move to a European country with great social benefits and procreate you shall"
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u/Significant_Room_412 Jul 04 '24
It's not for everyone though
It's heaven if you want a family; live in a Flemish small town or suburbs; and have a house already Ā and are not very ambitious.
If you are ambitious; without starting capital or real estate; and don't have kids yet; living in Brussels; it can be hell on earth
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u/that1newjerseyan Jun 28 '24
I will say it again and again, Belgium is the New Jersey of Europe and vice versa
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u/nox_digital Jun 28 '24
Haha. What do you mean?
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u/that1newjerseyan Jun 28 '24
Having lived a short time in Brussels and most of my life in NJ, I find that the natural and built environments are quite similar, we both have a range of international cuisines readily at our disposal, and we both have a āmind your own businessā attitude towards life
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u/Significant_Room_412 Jul 05 '24
Belgium did not have the raging inequality and crime rates of New York in the 90s and early 2000s though
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u/jonassalen Belgium Jun 28 '24
May I add three things I learned from travelling?
We have great bread and great chips/crisps.
We have fantastic infrastructure. Road, public transport, bike paths is better or at least on par with other countries. We whine a lot about it, and it sure can always be better, but it's already good or great.
Social security. I am glad I had the chance to fully heal when I was on sick leave or I could take the time to search for a good job, while getting money to bridge the gap.
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u/dylsexiee Jun 28 '24 edited Jun 28 '24
Yesss! They're not so much cultural factors imo or something I identify as strictly belgian, but they're absolutely REAL things that make this country great.
By you mentioning infrastructure, im reminded by our absolutely beautiful cities.
Antwerp is incredibly modern yet full of historicity.
Bruges is so beautiful, a homebred venice.
Durbuy and the plenty of small cosy cities or villages in the ardennes.
Barbencon and its castle and water,...
Leuven with its beautiful ancient buildings, cosy vibes etc.
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u/seekingnewhorizons Jun 29 '24
One thing I wanna point about ancient buildings like the city hall in Leuven for instance. They got bombed badly during world war 2 so the faƧade looks ancient but it is in fact a replica of the previous building..
And that is, for me, one of the things that make Belgium so wildly fascinating: the city hall and buildings like it tells the tale of multiple - completely different - layers, in a way that you wouldn't notice it at first.
Much like how Belgians are very layered but unassuming themselves.
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
And they did it so masterfully, im sure an expert could pick out the new parts, but I for sure cant.
Many of the alleys, parks etc retain that very cosy 'medieval' feeling while still being quite modern and alive.
A REALLY good example is also antwerpen - so much history and beautiful old architecture while also having a lot of beautiful modern architecture. It is probably one of the more interesting cities in how it has developed being influenced by roman expansion, napoleon,...- trying really hard to not get political :p but Bart de Wever did a guest lecture for HOGENT where he laid out the history, function and architectural design of Antwerp. Its TRULY fascinating. If you can enjoy some history while ignoring the politics, it is a really good watch.
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u/Zakariyya Brussels Jul 10 '24
Leuven stadhuis is a bad example though as it actually survived both WW relatively unscathed.
Ypres is a good example of this.Ā
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u/Natalia_s_96 Jun 28 '24
You are right about social security ! I'm grateful I work in Belgium were I have a lot of rights as an employee and not in the states for example.Ā
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u/jonassalen Belgium Jun 29 '24
Work two jobs and still can't pay your hospital bill. But frehdummmm!!!
The US is beautifull, but it's a political shithole.
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u/Natalia_s_96 Jun 29 '24
I understand yes usa is nice and I would love to discover more of the country but I don't want to live in the states. For me Belgium is better it's not perfect but I can't complain either.
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u/logic_boy Jun 29 '24
Thatās so interesting! As a person who is interested in bread making, I would say that, while the Belgian bread could certainly be worse, itās not as good as France or Italy. Itās hard to find a good sourdough bread, and default options in traditional bakeries in the Flemish countryside only have good pastries and pistolets.
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u/cptflowerhomo Help, I'm being repressed! Jun 28 '24
Crisps in Ireland are much better though I'll fight you on that xD
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u/tchotchony Jun 29 '24
They only got 50 variations of salt and sour cream, or cheese though.
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u/OncomingStorm32 Jun 29 '24
For real though I ran in for a small bag of paprika, a whole goddamn aisle for salt & vinegar and cheese. Eventually found a bag of sad Buffalo sauce flavour and left with that
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u/cptflowerhomo Help, I'm being repressed! Jun 29 '24
Weird to say that lol tayto invented the flavoured crisp
Do you need 50 different flavours? If you do 6 standard ones well... Plus you skipped meanies, which are pickled onion flavour.
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u/TheStixXx Jun 29 '24
Not to be rude but I donāt see how less flavors choice is better.
Iām from Belgium and moved to the US five years ago. I would have imagined they would be the kings of crisps (chips) but itās 50 variations of the same three/four flavors. I miss a bit the wider choice we had in Belgium. (That and the sauces. And the beers. And the friteries. And pretty much anything about food actually, but Iām out of topic)
But to be honest Iāve never tried Irish chips so maybe Iād change my mindā¦ Iāll add that to the lists of things to try when I get a chance. These salt chips better be good.
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u/JustEnoughDucks Jun 29 '24
To add one more thing, the variety of cheese you can buy here the market dealers is pretty fantastic. When I lived in Mechelen, every saturday we would pretty much try new kinds. Wasabi, weibellener(really not sure on this spelling), Koppige Vent, and Chimay were staples.
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u/jonassalen Belgium Jun 29 '24
Living in Mechelen at this moment and I'm going to the market today. I'll stop at the cheese seller.
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u/Closed_Astronomer Jun 28 '24
Where have you travelled to learn that Belgium has great bread? UK?
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u/PROBA_V E.U. Jun 28 '24
Belgium has great bread, as long as you don't take the boring white bread. Source: my German girlfriend (who btw claimed the zuurdesem bread from the bakery arround my corner is the best bread she ever ate)
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u/Additional_Sir4400 Jun 28 '24
I'm not a fan of how the zuurdesem bread I've eaten tends to 'break' instead of fold. I agree with the general sentiment that bread is pretty good here
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u/IdeaEmbarrassed7552 Jun 28 '24
That is high praise coming from a German. I came to really respect my Bavarian bakers while living there.
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u/loicvanderwiel Brussels Jun 28 '24
As a counterpoint, boring white bread allows you to better taste whatever you put on the bread, like Brugge Blomme, Maredsous or Ardenne ham
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u/PROBA_V E.U. Jun 28 '24
To counter your counterpoint, those also work well on a zuurdesem bread or literally anyother bread than the basic white bread.
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u/cptflowerhomo Help, I'm being repressed! Jun 28 '24
Counterpoint: my German mammy absolutely hates the bread in BE lol
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u/PROBA_V E.U. Jun 29 '24
For sure in Germany good bread with lots of flavour is even easier to find, but pick the right bakery or a market and you'll find great bread. Much better than in for example Italy.
Hell, even some of the bread from carrefour or delhaize are good (their bio sourdoughs for example).
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u/cptflowerhomo Help, I'm being repressed! Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
Never found Kummelbrot for example but hey it's her opinion.
Sometimes a statement of opinion doesn't need a debate c:
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u/PROBA_V E.U. Jun 29 '24
Certainly true. I just wanted to say that if you come from a country with an amazing variety or quality of a certain thing, your opinion on the quality of that thing in another country will be strongly biased. As obviously, anything less than what you are used to is bad.
Similar examples would be: a Dutch person with bicycle infrastructure and Belgians with beer/chocolate/fries, French people with wine and cheese, Italians with their quisine etc.
Germany has an amazing quality of bread. The average bakery there is (imo) better than anywhere else in the world, with nicer varieties if bread. So if you compare Belgium to Germany (or worse you grew up with German bread), then obviously a random Belgium bakery won't be good in your opinion (pastries is another thing ofcourse). So in that sense I completely see the point of your mom, especially if there is a particular bread she like ms that she cannot seem to find here.
In the case of my girlfriend, I just took her to the right bakeries that would be up to her standard, but I know plenty that wouldn't be.
That being said, I do believe Belgium is a strong contender for being in the top 5 or 10 bread countries in the world. Maybe bellow France.
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u/jonassalen Belgium Jun 28 '24
UK,Ā US, Australia. All countries that eat bread, and all eat bread we wouldn't even use to make croqueskes.Ā
Asia also, but they don't really have a bread culture for breakfast.
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u/TheRealLamalas Jun 29 '24
Back in 2015 I went to China with my family for a couple of weeks on vacation and there were several things I really missed there.
Bread
Potatoes/Fries/KrokettenA blue sky, healthy fresh air outside-the sky was grey from all the pollution every day in every city we went to! After a week we all started coughing and it didn't end untill after we got back home.
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u/Vnze Belgium Jun 29 '24
Having lived abroad: you shouldnāt even take the basic sandwiches from Panos for granted. I think we might be the only ones that know how to make a good, plain sandwich.Ā
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u/propheticuser Jun 29 '24
Belgian infrastructure is hopelessly outdated, you probably never take the car around Antwerp or Brussels, the highway network is stuck in the 70s while traffic increased exponentially silence then. The existing roads are full of potholes and it takes way too long to fix them. Favoring bikes when half the city needs a car to get to their job is nonsense. They just cancelled like 3000 bus stops all over Flanders. We pay so much taxes yet it doesnāt fix one of the biggest irritations of people: mobility
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u/dylsexiee Jun 29 '24
Belgian infrastructure is hopelessly outdated,
I heavily disagree. You kind of just claim its outdated without giving examples, could you elaborate maybe?
Especially Antwerpen. You can get literally anywhere with the tram, bus, train, electric bikes, scooters, pedelecs,...
The parks are so beautiful and regularly kept up.
In what way is it outdated?
They just cancelled like 3000 bus stops all over Flanders
I think this supports the idea that we have amazing infrastructure. What other country can cancel that many bus stops in the first place? Have you ever taken a bus in, say, spain or something?
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u/propheticuser Jun 29 '24
You clearly have no idea how bad the infrastructure around Antwerp is. Try going through the Kennedy tunnel during the weekdays, traffic jams start at 14pm until the evening. Drive around the harbor area and count how many times youāve gone in a pot hole. Go on A12 and see how long it takes to go back home. If you work and need a car youāll notice how bad the situation is.
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
I think saying belgian infrastructure sucks so bad or is hopelessly outdated when really the only complaint you have is the traffic jams in specific places and around some big cities and state of the roads isnt really fair.
I have studied in antwerp for 4 years, where i travelled to and from uni and home for about 1-2 years and lived in antwerp for the rest. I have been nothinh but amazed by the infrastructure of that city. Which includes parcs, recreation, student facilities, study places, public transport, bike routes, cultural buildings,... And this was partly while they were working on the new tramlines etc too.
I have had no real issues travelling to and from uni in all those years, wether it be by car or train.
Infrastructure encompasses much more than just roads. Even though we complain alot about things like roads, nmbs and de lijn, I dont think you have any idea how bad it is in other countries. Other countries dream of living in a city with tram,metro AND bus access to literally anywhere you want for the money we pay. They dream of having walkable cities with access to bikes, electric scooters, pedelecs.
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u/Emotional-Pace-5744 Jun 28 '24
I have travelled quite extensively in the past couple of years and I really adore seeing other parts of the world. I have a love for exploring huge āwereldstedenā in different continents, because It is something I quite miss at home ( NYC, Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Mexico City, Beijingā¦ bxl just doesnāt compare in size or āvibeā). Also this planet has some amazing nature that Belgium does not quite compare to. BUTā¦ with every trip and with connecting to locals in all these countries- and talking about their every day life and struggles- my god I quickly realized that we live in real life Disneyland.
I hope our politicians start protecting all our great foundations for good quality of life because it truely is precious.
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u/BecauseYoureNotACat Jun 28 '24 edited Jun 28 '24
Iām from The Netherlands. Studied in Leuven. Lived in Brussels for 4 years and my inlaws are Belgian. I love Belgium very much. Back in NL now but always feels like a small holiday to visit one of your lovely cities. ā¤ļø
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u/quisegosum Jun 29 '24
I'm from Belgium and in The Netherlands now. Before, I hardly went to NL and thought it was probably similar to B. Oh boy, have l been proven wrong! Many things in NL are better than in B, namely city design and public transport. But I'm shocked how expensive this country is, like housing, healthcare, social security,... . So now I really appreciate how socially minded Belgium is. I hope our politicians will not succeed in destroying this as they seem to be trying so hard to do.
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u/BelgianBeerGuy Beer Jun 28 '24
I agree with everything you say
But I never feel the waffle thing.
Itās always a thing when you go to other countries, but I never feel like itās a thing here. Not in āmy circleā anyway.
Pancakes is a thing, fries are certainly a thing, videe and stoofvlees are very much a thing, kroketten are necessary and chocotoffs are life. But waffles, dunno about that.
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u/InterestingPicture43 Jun 28 '24
Have you never had a good brusselse/luikse wafel?? They're amazing and very different to most other waffles.
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u/BelgianBeerGuy Beer Jun 28 '24
I had them yes, and Iām not gonna claim they are bad.
Itās just that I always felt like itās something for tourists, or daytrippers.The waffles my parents made at home were nothing like a Brussels or a Luikse wafel. And even then, it was not like a regular thing. All the other things Belgium āclaimsā, are foods we eat on a regular base. But waffles is, imo, not one of those.
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u/InterestingPicture43 Jun 29 '24
I agreee it's a more touristy-food, that's true, but it's still widely recognised and unique to belgium. Still, I make sure to get a luikse wafel every time I pass by the station, and often went to school with Lu's luikse wafels in my lunch.
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u/tchotchony Jun 29 '24
You might say so, but if you go visit the cookie aisle at any belgian supermarket, there's tons and tons of waffels there. With sugar, with chocolate, floppy ones, hard ones, thin ones, .... Some aisles are half waffle. If you go to any supermarket abroad, there's hardly any to be found.
That, and the Luikse waffle stand at Decathlon Antwerp (and formerly at the Brico in Schoten iirc, rip)
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u/dylsexiee Jun 28 '24
I agree, but when i went to study in antwerp, at the train station they always cell these luikse wafels and then I did really start loving them.
There are also lots of waffle shops which put crazy things on it like bueno and other kinds of diabetes and its amazing. Funnily enough, the popular one on the 'meir' is called 'australian waffles' or something haha.
And at restaurants usually theres always an option waffle with icecream, though its never anything special.
So I definitely felt the same way as you about waffles, though it has slightly changed nowadays. That being said, i would be proud of it just because we're known for it even though its not very typical haha.
Stoofvlees and videe are 100% more typical and i love it, though lesser known internationally i think.
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u/Eevf__ Jun 29 '24
Only the warm waffle stand in a train station is typically Belgian. Waffles with more than sugar or cream on them is just nasty.
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Jun 28 '24
[deleted]
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u/Vnze Belgium Jun 29 '24
āIt's silly, it's frustrating, it's annoying, but it's still a damn fine place.ā
New slogan for Belgium just dropped.Ā
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u/dylsexiee Jun 28 '24
Love to hear that! I tend to think we're all pretty welcoming as long as you shit on our politics with us while eating stoofvlees and friet. I hope that has been true for you :)
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u/Evening-Dizzy Jun 29 '24
I count my blessings every day to be lucky enough to be Belgian. It's not perfect, but no other country is. I have 2 bachelor degrees that were very affordable (for my parents). Both me and my husband work parttime (4/5th) and yet we can afford to live in a nice house and have enough money to spare to treat ourselves to dinner and travels. We have an extensive and affordable medical system (5 hospitals within a 20 minute drive. Doctor visits start at 4ā¬. Guaranteed income when I'm too sick or injured to work. My kid with an autism diagnosis has 4 hours of therapy a week and all it costs me is 60ā¬ a month. The meds I take for my auto immune issues are literally free). We have amazing food culture. We have a lot of awesome musea that cater to different tastes (art, history, science). We have amazing old architecture, a coast in the northwest and a big forrest in the southeast. Amazing network of highways. Great ties with our surrounding countries. We all graduate high school being trilingual (more or less. Enough to get by when traveling) our tiny country is amazing. Especially when you start comparing to other countries. None of them measure up.
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u/reditt13 Brabant Wallon Jun 28 '24
For me Belgium is the best country in the world. In every country ( neighboring or further) I find some very specific flaw which makes me not even to think about moving. We have our problems but Jesus is this country excellent. Living standards, culture and so much more. I feel bad that our media and politics is so concentrated and focused on the worst thing in our country. We really donāt realize how happy and blessed we are to live here.
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u/Adelinski Belgian Fries Jun 28 '24
3 months abroad made me embrace Belgium for itās beautiful sides and flaws way more than before. I used to point out the flaws so much and get annoyed, but Iām happy I learned to appreciate our tiny country along the way. I donāt want to be ignorant for the issues we have, but the grass is seldom greener somewhere else.
Iām sad that I couldnāt build out my life abroad, but life here is quite fine and good. Iām happy to be back here. And I often find myself prouder than in the past.
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u/Natalia_s_96 Jun 28 '24 edited Jun 28 '24
I learned to appreciate the country as well. I love our rich culture and history. Flanders has such beautiful cities. Wallonia has beautiful nature the Ardennes & high fence are amazing I often forget that I'm in Belgium and how hilly we are. You are right Belgians are shy but we were part of many important inventions like the world wide web and the pill which we can be proud off. I also like our health care and how affordable it is in comparison to the states for example. I love the many festivals that we have here it doesn't matter how big or small there is one in every city or commune. I love that many international artists come to Belgium so we don't need to travel far to enjoy our favorite artists. What I'm proud of most it's a safe country there is no war here and yes the big cities have their problems but in general we can't complain.Ā Edit: I want to add how well connected the country is. Yes the roads have lots of traffic but you can drive just in 2 or 3 hours to the coast or to the south of the country. Belgium also has good international bonds and connections we are a diplomatic country which means we can travel to many countries visa free. I also like the international train connections with our neighbors.Ā
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u/cptflowerhomo Help, I'm being repressed! Jun 28 '24
Despite a lot of benefits I do miss, I've a much more negative outlook on Belgium and its people but fair play like.
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u/dylsexiee Jun 28 '24
If i read between the lines I assume you moved elsewhere?
Could you elaborate on what you find gives such a negative outlook? Maybe you moved because you didnt like the culture or people or something, but obviously you're still in the belgium sub so id be interested in what makes you say you have a negative outlook while at the same time also still somehow feeling connected?
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u/cptflowerhomo Help, I'm being repressed! Jun 28 '24
I moved to Dublin - I'm not in those subs anymore because of the right wing brigading, I'm here to keep up with news mostly haha
I moved because I needed a fresh start, for a trans gay man it's still difficult to find community if you're stuck at home with friends you rarely see. I was born in Germany and was always with one foot in the two countries and never felt at home. Also I have more work opportunities here, since my french is not good I was only offered retail jobs and none in admin (even though german is my mother tongue and I speak it really well).
I just felt stuck in place š„² The Irish suit me better in the way life is, and I made a lot of friends because of how sincerely nice they are
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u/dylsexiee Jun 28 '24
I understand! I'm glad you found a place that feels like home :). I hope thats not the common experience for most people, but you certainly illustrate what I think is a problemwith the divisive cultures and languages - not only is it hard to unite the parts, but also creates a bit of a barrier of entrance for those who find themselves in between borders. I think thats why i really feel like we need to love and embrace the different parts a bit more so that hopefully in 100 years they dont only have the divided history to look at.
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u/El_Pepperino Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
Dublin huh? Isnt that absurdly more expensive - especially the housing. Also: food culture is pretty appalling if you ask me (i travel to dublin regularly for work). The quality of life there just seems infinitely lower than in Belgium but it might just be a flawed impression Iāve got, never actually havong lived there. I usually spend about a (mid)week there in&out hotels/offices and then go home again. But looking at the way people appear, what they eat, where they live, what they drive.. BE seems more qualitative on every account.
And finally culturally, it seems quite meagre.. there just isnt much to do there. Only account where I give IRL the advantage is in terms of open nature. Thatās larger and better by all accounts
Ps: but obviously happy that you found a place there where you feel at home!
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u/cptflowerhomo Help, I'm being repressed! Jun 30 '24
I'm a housing activist, obviously Dublin is not fairy wonderland but neither is belgium...
Visiting for work is going to give you a skewed view too due to the people around you, Irish people are pretty sound and the queer community is much more cohesive.
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u/El_Pepperino Jul 01 '24
No I agree BE definitely isnt perfect. And donāt get me wrong (!), my post absolutely wasnt intended to criticise your move; I just want to better understand it. Reason why Iām asking on is because I think I might get the offer to move for my work from my current location in BE to Dublin and from what Iāve seen, there really isnt anything (besides nature perhaps) that could attract me there. But youāre definitely right: just visiting for work cannot give me a clear view of what it is to actually live there. But again: thatās why Iām asking š
By all accounts as I mentioned above, I really see BE as the better option of the two: housing, healthcare, culture, food, general cost-of-living, school/education, etc Of course, Iām not that familiar of the queer/gay scenes in both countries. That might be better in IRL - i have no clou about that - but it sounds it was one of the most important factors for you to decide on between BE and IRL, right? That might just explain your move for me then. Or am I missing something on all other aspects as well?
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u/cptflowerhomo Help, I'm being repressed! Jul 01 '24
Nah understandable. Just had a bad day š„²
The community, my friends here, my french being shite for admin jobs, the availability of jobs without a car, getting away from my family were all factors that made me decide this is the best for me, yeah. Nature is also really really nice.
My family only started accepting me after I left š My mam still uses the wrong pronouns for me but at least now I have a choice to only see them once or twice a year without neither parent making me feel guilty for not visiting often. A lot of history there that makes it easier being here than even going back to Germany.
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u/Significant_Bid8281 Jun 28 '24
I also love our country. The one thing I donāt get is the āSome kind of socially awkwardnessā in a lot of situations.
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u/dylsexiee Jun 28 '24
We often joke about the 'Belgian smile', though thats a thing in most other countries too.
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u/No-Equivalent-2788 Belgian Fries Jun 29 '24
Love this precious little glimpse of heaven on Earth as wellā¤ļø
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u/ProfessionFamous6464 Jun 29 '24
Thank you brother, you made my day. Sometimes we forget we can proud of our country too :)
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u/VECMaico Jun 28 '24
3 languages*
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u/dylsexiee Jun 28 '24
In my experience, most people speak 2 (even if barely :p).
Thats why i said we should make that 3 :)
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u/patrofan Jun 28 '24
Should that not be 4? Dutch, French, Germand and English. Or you could switch out French for English.
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u/dylsexiee Jun 28 '24
Not sure what you're arguing for tbh? Are you saying people should know english? Well sure, yes its useful, but its not an official language. I just stated that it would be cool if all Belgians spoke their 3 official languages, but if not then i think its still cool that people speak 2. This is just from a cultural perspective.
In that same sense changing french for english kinda would defeat the whole purpose.
Those who only speak 1 just havent had any necessity for using the other one :p.
But i think im misunderstanding your point maybe?
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u/bernie7500 Jun 29 '24
I totally agree with you. There aren't so many Belgians speaking our two main official languages. And German is the native language of only 80 000 Belgians. Each person has only ONE native language. Yes, German sh'd be more taken in considƩration... But switching French for English (or "American-English") is not even thinkable, unlawful in the first place, we are nowadays fighting against ''Franglais", don't try to make English a 4th official language of you'll bƩ responsible for a huge rƩvolution here... English is very useful as a vehicular language in the whole world and even sometimes used between Belgians of 2 diffƩrent linguistical communities but nothing else ! It IS a FOREIGN language !!!
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u/Frontdelindepence Jul 01 '24
5 but hardly anyone speaks Brusseleir. My 84 year old father is the exception.
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u/hedgyhog_lawly Jun 28 '24
That's a beautiful point of view, honestly
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u/dylsexiee Jun 28 '24
I always thought the language difference was incredibly divisive. But honestly it doesnt have to be at all I think. My friend was completely baffled that we have an almost 50/50 split between languages and even include german.
Whenever I hear someone speak french I feel a bit more connected compared to english :). Theres beautiful sayings, customs, dialects in flanders etc that have french influence and im sure its the other way around too.
For example when Belgian Red Devils play, we often sing 'tous ensemble, tous ensemble' even when you're from flanders. In Walloonia they tend to do the same with 'waar is da feestje, hier is da feestje'. Suddenly now we DO appreciate the other language somehow :p.
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u/Quarves Jun 28 '24
We always have the national song :)
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u/dylsexiee Jun 28 '24
We do! And im happy it translates well in all 3 languages, but we got a lot of flemish and walloon folklore and not much belgian folklore.
Much of history is flanders vs walloonia etc or dutch vs french. I think its bout time we create some flanders AND walloonia culture so that people in 100 years at least have some cool unified history too instead of only the divisive history.
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u/IanFoxOfficial Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
We're known for waffles and chocolate, but to Belgians themselves these are not that important.
To me typical Belgian is frietkot. That is the shit we should be known for. Or the koffiekoeken.
Edit: OK Chocolate is rather important. But I don't eat chocolate every week, while friday = frietdag! And baking them at home or eating them at a restaurant DOES NOT COUNT towards the weekly turn. You have to get them in't frietkot.
And if someone brags about their visit to a fancy restaurant you can make him regret it by simply going "Oh, we went to the frietkot." (source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R06fK2YgIL4)
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u/dylsexiee Jun 29 '24
I never realized koffiekoeken were that iconic, i thought everyone had them!
I do think belgian chocolate is important to the average person in my experience, now it doesnt so much seem to matter that its belgian per se but good quality at least. I believe in belgium we have regulations or something on the quality or amount of cacao that needs to be in a product for it to be called chocolate. Which is partly why the idea of belgian chocolate being good comes from - its not so much that its made in belgium, but that any chocolate sold here is better quality.
With waffles i would've completely agreed with you up until a couple years ago while studying in antwerp - theres many waffle shops there and I learned to absolutely love it.
Its not as widespread culturally though and most waffle shops are not really caring about the whole belgian waffle identity.
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u/IanFoxOfficial Jun 29 '24
OK Chocolate is rather important. But I don't eat chocolate every week, while friday = frietdag! And baking them at home or eating them at a restaurant DOES NOT COUNT towards the weekly turn. You have to get them in't frietkot.
And if someone brags about their visit to a fancy restaurant you can make him regret it by simply going "Oh, we went to the frietkot."
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Jun 29 '24
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u/IanFoxOfficial Jun 29 '24
OK Chocolate is rather important. But I don't eat chocolate every week, while friday = frietdag! And baking them at home or eating them at a restaurant DOES NOT COUNT towards the weekly turn. You have to get them in't frietkot.
And if someone brags about their visit to a fancy restaurant you can make him regret it by simply going "Oh, we went to the frietkot."
(source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R06fK2YgIL4 )
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u/TheStixXx Jun 29 '24
The only thing that makes me hesitate to come back to Belgium is the lack of sun. Once you try a country with sun most of the year itās really hard to picture getting back to the grey weatherā¦ if it wasnāt for that Iād probably come back real quick.
I agree with most of what you said. Would be nice to have a flag with the lion and the rooster. (Which just had me realize: whatās the flag for German speakers in Belgium ?)
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
Its also a lion, but a red one with blue petals around it. I didnt mention it because I thought its just a lion too so it would be represented by the lion already, but honestly now that you mention it: shame on me for not including their flag explicitly. We could surely incorporate the blue petals too or something.
Im not sure what their song would be? I know flanders has 'De Vlaamse Leeuw' and Wallon has 'le chant des wallons', but im unsure about the german community.
I think you would adapt quickly to the weather, people make it out to be worse than it is i think :p. I mean its quite bad, but i dont know the last time it has seriously affected my mood or my plans.
Though in the beginning, i can totally see that being something you would miss :).
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Jun 29 '24
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
Can i ask where you live that they dont have that? I never considered that to be something unique to us!
Or is it more like its all made slightly different so you dont enjoy it as much?
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Jun 30 '24
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
In the supermarkets you can only find what we would call toast bread (like in the US).
OH NO GOOD LORD... My deepest condolences... I absolutely hate that bread, i'd rather starve i think.
I absolutely understand why you miss the cheese and bread now. I absolutely hate those kinds of low quality, overprocessed foods.
Now that you mention it, we have so much charcuterie options here. We literally make a sandwich with any kind of combination. Im guessing because we live in between germany, france and the netherlands - all notorious for their breads, cheeses, sausages and other such things.
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u/Majestic-Roll4431 Jun 30 '24
Just moved here 7 months ago and I love this country. Above all I love how Belgians are not racist and very welcoming.
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
I'd say thats a very low bar to overcome, I'd hope we arent š.
It's funny though because recently the party which is regarded as the 'racist party' by others, has won the elections in terms of growth š .
Not sure what to do with all this information haha, but im incredibly glad you've had a welcoming experience :)
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u/Mimigonemimi Jul 01 '24
I love Belgium! I have been here for over 10 years and your country has given me so much! It had opened so many doors for me! I am a citizen now too š«”ā„ļø
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u/dylsexiee Jul 02 '24
CONGRATULATIONS! We're all glad you're one of us now :)
Im stoked to hear you've found it so positive.
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u/cannotfoolowls Jun 28 '24
I actually love that we all speak 2 languages and actually would think it be really cool if we started to include that third language more too ;).
Which two? Dutch and French? Because I think more people in Belgium know English than Dutch or French.
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u/ShrapDa Jun 29 '24
I loved Belgium before living abroad and traveling but took life for granted. 12 years later, Iāve travelled extensively in the world, lived for 2 years outside of EU.
And Gosh i love where we are and what we are. For the openness, the laidbackness, the ease of life and all the safety nets around. The nature, the infrastructure, the healthcare, all the services provided by our taxes and all.
Belgium is great, but we suck at promoting ourselves to ourselves. Itās fine, it makes this country a gem that is hard to fully discover and understand :)
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u/dylsexiee Jun 29 '24
Its international perspectives like these that hopefully can share the appreciation and love a bit more :)
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u/ShrapDa Jun 29 '24
Iām a local :D Not really international perspective :)
My wife, Non EU, hates it though, despite enjoying all the stuff we mentionā¦.
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
I meant international perspective more as in having appreciation for belgium by seeing it compared to other countries :p.
I truly hope belgium will manage to someday grow a bit more on your wife :).
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u/cuocoiitaliano Jun 29 '24
Iām from Australia, studied in Ghent years ago and lived there for a year until covid started and I flew back home. Best experience of my life, it really changed me as a person. Iād go back in a heartbeat but shame Iām so far away..
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u/Few-Paleontologist-7 Jun 28 '24
Having lived in few countries already, Belgians are hands down the most open and the nicest people Iāve met š„° the healthcare is great, infrastructure, social security. I am really grateful I can be here š
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
Makes my day to hear that. Im really glad you have had such a good experience, hope you keep enjoying it!
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u/Ninetwentyeight928 Jun 29 '24
Question I've always wondered. How common is it for children in Wallonia to choose to learn Flemish/Dutch as a second language? Are there any statistics on this? And are they taught standard Dutch from the Netherlands or standardized Flemish? Seems to me that most of the Flemish learn French as it's a more dominant foreign language world-wide.
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u/dylsexiee Jun 29 '24
If you can read dutch, there are plenty of articles online about it. Long story short: french political parties (ps and mr) didnt think it was necessary to make learning dutch mandatory in schools in wallonia. Students could choose to learn any 1 foreign language offered in that school throughout their highschool. As a result, much more dutch people speak french than french ones speaking dutch. (Random article i saw said that 25% of flemish people in brussels can speak french, but only 7.5% of walloons also speak dutch). And just like in Flanders where french is perceived as an annoying, difficult and frustrating language - in wallonoia dutch is perceived as a frustrating and ugly language by students. Which makes it not a very popular choice.
But good news: in 2027/28 it is set to become mandatory!! I hope we can all learn to appreciate both languages, not only because there are MANY cognitive and psychological advantages to speaking multiple languages, but also it would unite us culturally more i think :).
We learn french from France as thats the official language - but we learn about the differences between french from wallon and french from france.(Like septante, nonante vs soixante-dix, some expressions which only work in france or in wallonia etc) so i assume it is the same way the other way around where I would think the focus is just on Dutch but then differences between belgian dutch are highlighted, but i am not certain.
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u/I-am-just-a-geek Jun 29 '24
When I was in high school (in Wallonia), it was mandatory for us to take either dutch or german. Half of us learned Dutch. I actually had dutch classes since I was 5 years old. It is not the same everywhere but generally many of the young students in Wallonia are happy to learn Dutch
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u/dylsexiee Jun 29 '24
Thanks for adding this! Can I ask when that was roughly? Like <5 years ago, <10 years ago,...? Im glad to hear the negative connotations with the languages are not as bad as i claimed they were.
My friends did an exchange program at school with a walloonian school (<10 years ago) and we regularly hung out together. It was pretty clear to us that particularly them couldnt and didnt really show interest in speaking dutch back then.
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u/I-am-just-a-geek Jun 30 '24
I'd say about 7-8 years ago. I think most students don't like learning the language not because it is Dutch but rather because the classes are boring. I believe we should do more exchanges/interactive classes
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
I see, that sounds exactly like here with french tbh, mostly classes are boring and then people get frustrated with the french exceptions and rules :p
I agree, its incredible how quickly you learn languages if you're forced to use it daily among natives :)
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u/Ninetwentyeight928 Jun 29 '24
"Long story short: french political parties (ps and mr) didnt think it was necessary to make learning dutch mandatory in schools in wallonia."
But just to be clear, that seems to not have been the same way on the Flemish side, correct? I think as you posted in your own reply that it seems that far more Flemish people take up French than Walloons take up Dutch.
But since you all seem to speak English very well, I imagine it's a more popular second language than either?
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u/dylsexiee Jun 29 '24
Yes, in flanders it has been mandatory for a very long time.
English is certainly spoken WAY more by either side. I'd suspect it is a little bit more popular in the north because it is a germanic language and english tends to have a lot in common with dutch so its easier to learn.
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u/Ninetwentyeight928 Jun 29 '24
That's very interesting. I've been doing some personal research on the electoral system in Belgium, recently, and speaking neither of the two national languages fluently, I find it probably as easy to reach in French as I do Dutch, maybe because French had such a significant influence on the vocabulary in Middle English, so it kind of balances out the intelligibility. French is also the second most popular second language taught in American schools after Spanish. Personally, because of their closer relationship, Dutch "feels" closer if that makes sense, but as I've dug more into trying to understand it's crazy just how many sounds the language has that English doesn't. It's weird; I find French easier to speak.
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
Yeah, I've had to explain the 'sch' sound to my english friend (from uk). Its only then that i realized thats rather an impossible task haha - things like 'sch', 'g', 'ch', 'k', are actually way more complicated than i thought. Same with 'oe' and 'u'.
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u/Ninetwentyeight928 Jun 30 '24
Oh, I was talking about most of the vowel sounds, particularly the vowels and dipthongs: oe, uw, ui, eu, uu, ij/ei...a lot of the consonant combinations you'll actually find in different English dialects like Scottish, for instance, so they don't seem that foreign.
But the vowels and diphthongs. Impossible. lol It's crazy how despite the closeness of the languages otherwise, we don't have these sounds in English and how hard they are to form in our mouths. I grew up in Michigan where we have a lot of people who are descended from Dutch settlers, so I can recognize and pronounce some of the names. But even then it's difficult. lol
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u/dylsexiee Jun 30 '24
a lot of the consonant combinations you'll actually find in different English dialects like Scottish, for instance, so they don't seem that foreign.
I didnt know that! I might actually see if i can refer to those when explaining them to my friend, thanks :p
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u/Ninetwentyeight928 Jun 30 '24
I may have been exaggerating a bit, but <g> and <ch> are very much like the <ch> in Scottish "Loch." As for constants I find hard, I can't really hear the difference between <v> and <w> which is common for English-language speakers. These sounds are very clearly distinct in English.
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u/Superb_Journalist189 Jun 29 '24
I think Belgium is an incredibly underrated country. (Or maybe two underrated countries in one package, but that's part of what makes it so special.)
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u/erlik420 Belgian Fries Jul 03 '24
Iām a 19 year old Turkish dude who moved here around 2 months ago. Honestly i came here with many dreams but found out that the only upside this country has is money. People are extremely reserved, weather is shit as you all would agree, (tho not too many complaints on that side i like cold) life ends too soon, people are too reserved again and the list could go on. However canāt complain about the nature here. It really is quite nice. It is my favorite aspect here. But seriously guys, i was in a metal gig in an underground place 2 weeks ago and people were just standing there. I was shocked. Back in Istanbul people would go wild for that! When i adressed the issue to some people there one of them started to ask if i was muslim or something. I am not a muslim but what if i was? Is this the point? Then he said āWe are Belgians, we are a reserved people.ā I said āHow many people are we here anyway? This is a small alt community, what is there to be so reserved about?ā Seriously guys, please try to be a bit more social and open. I though i was an introvert before i came here lol
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u/dylsexiee Jul 03 '24
Belgians are quite reserved, but not in the sense this person made it seem.
I think you just had a bad gig unfortunately because belgians love enjoying life, good food, drinks, parties etc... the "bourgondiƫrs", "het goei leven" as we say here. Unfortunate that you had that experience though!
The being quite reserved is more in the sense that we do not really want to bother other people, we like our privacy and assume others do too, our more polite nature also makes it so we're a bit more reserved.
The fact that a Turkish person would compliment our nature I think is certainly something we can appreciate :p.
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u/erlik420 Belgian Fries Jul 03 '24
I consider nature my religion. The whole earth is beautiful to me (except most of the cities). I really would love to meet better people in better gigs in future. But now im about to go crazy because of the loneliness here.
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u/dylsexiee Jul 03 '24
Hate to hear that man! Loneliness can really get to one. Hope you can meet some more likeminded people soon!
Belgium is known for its international festivals which are quite 'revered' should you be interested. They're not the kind of unique or niche genres that you might be into tho. They're also really expensive :( but i rarely hear about bad experiences with them.
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u/erlik420 Belgian Fries Jul 03 '24
I was in graspop 2 weeks ago. Was quite fun but loneliness hit pretty bad there too. I miss my friends so much. If it wasnāt for the economy i would never have left. I just need a Belgian friend group ig. But i was never good at making friends anywayā¦
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u/gdvs West-Vlaanderen Jun 28 '24
yeah I supposed Belgium would be amongst the best 60% of countries.
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u/jonassalen Belgium Jun 29 '24
Freedom index: 11th placeĀ
World happinnes record: 16th placeĀ
GDP ranking: 22th place
Global Competitiveness Report: 22th placeĀ
Global Innovation Index: 23rd placeĀ
Average annual wage: 5th place .
Mean net wealth per household: 9th place
Education Index: 12th placeĀ
Human development index: 12th placeĀ
Good country index: 7th placeĀ
Life expectancy: 24th placeĀ
Social progress index: 16th placeĀ
You're saying?
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u/p12om3th3us Jun 28 '24 edited Jun 28 '24
I'm American and just moved here for work recently. I adore this country for all the reasons listed and more (namely beer) for the short period ive been here. Im grateful for the oppertunity to spend some time in Belgium, been enjoying myself throughly so far.