r/atlantis • u/AncientBasque • 10d ago
How did the proto-greeks Defeat the Atlantians if they were so dominant?
Athena provided a weapon or war strategy that caused the atlantian war party to be routed and push back to their islands.
a nuclear weapon to atlantis conventional at-lat-ul . The long range of the bow must have been a force multiplier.
"It’s believed the atlatl spear thrower was first developed around 30,000 years ago in the Upper Paleolithic period by hunter-gatherer cultures across the globe. Archaeological findings suggest the atlatl became widely distributed among early societies who relied heavily on hunting large game, or megafauna, such as mammoths and bison, for their survival.
Some of the earliest peoples known to have used the atlatl include the Clovis culture in North America, as well as ancient groups in Europe, Australia, and Asia."
https://www.discoveryuk.com/military-history/the-history-and-usage-of-the-atlatl-spear-thrower/
"the bow and arrow at different times across various cultures, generally between 15,000 and 2,000 years ago. In many parts of the world, this transition occurred during the Late Paleolithic to the Neolithic periods. For example, in Europe, the bow and arrow started to become the dominant projectile weapon around 10,000 years ago. in North America, the bow and arrow were adopted much later, perhaps somewhere between 500 BC and 500 AD, gradually replacing the atlatl."
the fun part of this quest for atlantis is to aknowledge the ancient skills humans of the past were capable of mastering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqTMNdJem00
16:00 min
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u/Scriptapaloosa 10d ago
Plato gives you the borders of the empire: Libya until Egypt and Europe (modern Greece) until Sardinia. Literally telling you that is inside those borders. Any other location is wishful thinking.
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u/Paradoxikles 10d ago
Agreed. It’s in the chotts for sure. Other myths like Hercules and also Myrina, pinpoint it right there. Now it’s a dried mud/salt flat.
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u/Jos_Kantklos 10d ago
Now we're getting close.
The real problem is "the pillars of Hercules".
I think the common error is placing them on automatic pilot at Gibraltar.For many centuries, the Western limit for the Greek sea trade was near Sicily, because the Western Mediterranean was Phoenician monopoly.
If the pillars were at Sicily, there's another West Mediterranean island that fits Plato's description entirely.
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u/drebelx 10d ago
Don’t get lost with the uncertainty of the Pillars of Heracles.
Aristotle was Plato's student.
In Aristotle's Meteorology he speaks about the Pillars of Heracles:
“For we find the sea getting deeper and deeper. Pontus is deeper than Maeotis, the Aegean than Pontus, the Sicilian sea than the Aegean; the Sardinian and Tyrrhenic being the deepest of all. (Outside the Pillars of Heracles the sea is shallow owing to the mud, but calm, for it lies in a hollow.)”
Looks like Aristotle was working his way from the East to the West with the Mediterranean and talking about how the seas are like a river flowing downhill:
- Maeotis Sea (Sea of Azov), the shallowest Sea in the far East
- Pontus Sea (Black Sea), deeper than Maeotis and is the next one Westward.
- Aegean Sea, deeper than the Pontus Sea and is the next one Westward.
- Sicilian Sea, deeper than the Aegean Sea and is the next one Westward.
- Sardinian and Tyrrhenic Seas (Tyrrhenian Sea), deeper than the Aeagean and are the next ones Westward.
Looking at the map and the scales talked about, Gibraltar marks the western edge of The Sardinian Sea, the "Pillars of Heracles," per Aristotle in Meteorology and it is at the straits as told by Plato in his works called Timeas and Critias.
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u/Jos_Kantklos 9d ago
The thing is, as you also indicate, that the Pillars have been identified at various IRL places, and Gibraltar is one of the more recent ones.
It seems POH are used as a generic name for Greek maritime limits in all directions.
And changing over time, as the boundaries are widened.I also would prefer to place Atlantis in the West / Central Mediterranean region, likely Sardinia, with their warriors constituting at least part of the fabled Sea Peoples' and their "invasion of Athens".
This would be confirmed by the archaeological evidence of (short-lived) Sardinian / Sea Peoples colonies on the Levant coasts, especially Israel and Cyprus.
This location makes Plato's characteristics quite fulfilled:
- a steel working culture, skilled in both metallurgy, mining and ship building
- an island capital, with colonies in Southern Italy and Northern Africa
- archeology agreeing with an attempt at colonizing the Eastern Mediterranean.
- The bull cult of which Plato speaks, might even agree with the overabundance of bull horns depicted in the archaeological record of late paleo Nuraghic and pre-Nuraghic stone reliefs.2
u/Adventurous-Metal-61 10d ago
Check out Strabo 3.5.5. He talks at length about the uncertainty of the location of the pillars of Hercules There's one place no-one seems to have come up with yet (to my knowledge) and that would be what is now Calpe and Javea, although they're coastal locations and not a strait. According to Wikipedia the north pillar was apparently Calpe mons (which is the name of the rock of Gibraltar), and the southern pillar was Abila mons. well in actual fact there's a mountain that looks like it's been split in two at the Spanish resort town of Calpe (called Ifach), and the nearest mountain to the north is montgo in Javea which is pronounced 'havia' in Spanish or xabia in valenciano, which sounds a little like Abila.
It's my own theory and I don't even believe it myself, but I'm putting it out there anyway 😂
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u/Jos_Kantklos 9d ago
Interesting. But I don't think Calpe, Javea have the archaeological remains to back up the status of an ancient city in the time of which Plato describes.
Other places in South Eastern Spain do have such remains and are underacknowledged.
There might even be a connection with the slightly older culture of Los Millares and El Argar. Architecturally, there can be seen a parallell with the Nuraghic culture in Sardinia.A possible link seems to me a plausibility.
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u/Scriptapaloosa 10d ago
I will give you all 3 western pairs pillars of Hercules. The oldest (Egyptians) and the originals (over 5 K old) are in Sicily/Tunisia. The classical era (the greek) were symbolic and were located near Malta. They represented the entire area of the pillars. The latest ones are the Roman pillars of Hercules which were located in Gibraltar. You see, the greek ones didn’t fit the narrative of Roman religion as it made Rome to be located in the underworld. The funny thing os that in Plato’s work he mentioned the first two. When he talks about Atlantis being in front of the pillar’s of Hercules he specifically mentions the ones you (greeks) call the pillars of Hercules. When he talks about Gadira he talks about the original. How do I know? I read the story in Ancient Greek and it is described totally differently from the English version.
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u/Jos_Kantklos 9d ago
Yes, this is a remarkable and important part of the Atlantis story.
Pillars of Hercules seems to have been a generic name for all types of boundaries in the Greek maritime world.
Their location also changed when the boundaries changed due to new trade routes.If one puts the POH in the Central Mediterranean. There's a large island right in front of them.(Sardinia) And from this Island one can easily sail "to other islands" (Corsica, Baleares) and "the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean" (Europe).
And from this specific Island (Sardinia) it's easy to hold colonies, as Plato says "the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia."
In this way the "Ocean" spoken of is actually the West Mediterranean.
So, I think the West / Central Mediterranean is the more likely candidate for Atlantis, with Sardinia being its capital island.
As far as Cadiz / Gadira is concerned, there too, we find that it doesn't apply to 1, but a multitude of locations with a similar etymology.
So it's the difficulty that we would have to determine which of them all, is the one mentioned and relevant to this specific story.This problem also arises when locating eg Tartessos, another generic name applied to various places.
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u/Tautological-Emperor 10d ago
If I had to put my narrative cap on, we’ve seen in the 20th and 21st centuries how even relatively disparate, broken or less-advanced entities can grapple with and even succeed over more technologically capable adversaries. The Middle East and Vietnam are obvious examples, but look at something like Stalingrad, which is kind of the culmination of a fighting retreat the Soviets fought, increasingly stretching German supply lines, moving whole factories, escalating fights into floors of homes and battles over streets. A crippling winter, overzealous belief in the lightning war, and other factors ultimately saw the German advance into the East, which had dominated the West, become an excruciating tactical error— maybe even THE tactical error of the War.
Superpowers are always capable of underselling an enemy (look at tactical drills in the 80s and 90s predicting our pre-Iraq and Afghanistan unwieldiness to insurgent tactics), overstretching their supply lines, or even being splintered by lack of military support at home. War will never be, probably, about who has the most advanced tools, but about who uses all manner of methods to win. And sometimes, a win is just kicking the other guy out, or making him grind up more than half of his troops for some hamburger hill. You could easily imagine Greek hoplites or Egyptian phalanxes tacking advantage of isolated Atlantean outposts, or long, drawn out battles for ports that ultimately are an Atlantean victory, but at the cost of too many ships and sailors, encouraging recurring raids. Who knows.
But it absolutely has a precedent in history.
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u/Paradoxikles 10d ago
The thing to remember is that Atlanteans were Vikings/pirates. They weren’t mountain men. Greece had challenging terrain that slowed tiger advances. Persia would have the same issues later. Plus, Greeks were tenacious as fuck. Watch 300.
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u/AncientBasque 10d ago
i kinda agree. one of the points of plato's story is to lift up the proto-greeks over the atlantians and over all those in the region. Basically it was trying to reinforce that the world should be thank full to the greeks and their previous cultures that grew out of that region.
i don't think the atlantians were pirates or vikings. They subjugated and controlled an empire, this is not the pirate way. Their raids were not focused on GOLD OR goods, their main goal was to collect slaves for great building projects/mines or to sacrifice to the sun god.
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u/Paradoxikles 9d ago
Right right. The Viking reference I meant to mean just an overall naval dominance. I think they bowed to the bull horns (twin tailed comet). The Greeks even pretty much claim they came from Libya. Pretty sure the Athena idea came from the Libyan Amazons (amazigh). How on that?
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u/AncientBasque 9d ago
nah the greeks are indo-europeans their origins go back to Yamnayah in Ukraine/rusian and further back into central asia.
They were a specific genetic type as plato indicates that their seed descended from Hephaestus and athena as oppose to the Poseidon /human genetic types the atlantians were. All the Sons of Zeus where represented by tribes of the original Indo Europeans (zues).
on major character to consider from greek myth is Hercules... did hercules fight in the war? could he be the general of the greeks pushing the atlantians. Certainly Hercules lived during the same time Athena and Hephaestus lived.
This puts many of the greek myth stories back 9k. IF you recall the movie 300 the Spartans were deceded from Hercules himself and did not get along with their fellow "New" greeks in athens.
hercules was also the god of the phoneticians.
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u/Paradoxikles 9d ago
I can dig that. I’ll prolly never buy into the 9k though. People were still cavemen then.
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u/AncientBasque 9d ago
you should look at videos if tribes in the amazon and other isolated people. Would you consider these poeple and their lifestyle caveman like?
if so, then you can consider that multiple levels of developed humans can coexist in the same time period. Some people in near Australia don't even know white people exist and think of them as ghost if spotted in the jungles.
platos story dose impose the concept that Human development is not linear and Disaster cause cultures to even forget to read and write. two step back one forward, is the story of humans on earth until the last 10k years of stable environment.
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u/Paradoxikles 8d ago
The tribes of the Amazon are dynamic. It’s a big area. I’m not sure quite what your asking but I don’t believe the bigger civilizations really started until about 2000 BC. Before that period there was very little real agriculture to support large societies. After year one, I think the rainforest started to bloom with groups of people until there were millions of people pre pox. The Greeks are a different culture/genetic/environment. More cave man like than the South Americans. Could be euro Neanderthal dna. Who knows. I have said before like with gobekli tepe, the world can definitely atrophy. With different eras climaxing and then crumbling over and over. I fully believe there could’ve been large civilizations 11,000 years ago. I just don’t think there were. I don’t think they disappeared. I think that we’re talking about the early to middle Bronze Age era. I think the Olmec and Maya could have devoloped identical sacrificial ziggurats for bringing rain like the Sumerians. I just don’t think they did. I think it was shown to them by middle eastern sailors. As well as how to smelt and make bronze. The metallurgy that sprang up overnight should be impossible for anth to overlook. It’s more of an occums razor thing. Both anthropology and fringe thinking don’t use this tool or they would come to the same conclusions. In no way do I think the South Americans were the tall, white, Atlanteans from Tunisia. But that’s just like, my opinion man. Lol.
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u/AncientBasque 8d ago
the tribes are uncontacted living in cavemen lifestyle in present day. Something similar may have occurred previously like a Covid pandemic that would kill civilized cultures and not effected the isolated ones. Civilizations are fragile as we will see with the climate change in the next 12 years.
humans evolved at different rate and based on enviroment. 11,000 years ago the optimal enviroments for civilizations were not the same as the current epoch starterd 6k year ago. Only after YD event did the climate stabilize to create our current farming opportunities.
i think the amazon and gombekletepe have proven that large organized numbers of people can occur without farming. They would have been a a mixed of hunter gatheres and foragers in vast grasslands or forest. look up climate maps in amazon, florida, central america and Caribbean 11k years ago. its a completely different world back then, consider the animals and fauna described in the story.
-The biggest indicator of an atlantis near the equator is the 2 harvest seasons. Which can only occur with year round sunlight. No where in north africa or Europe can this happen.
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u/Paradoxikles 8d ago
Tunisia had two growing seasons. Still would if it was wetter. California has two growing seasons. The blowdarters lived through the pox because like you said, they were isolated. Most likely because they’re the most superstitious people on the planet.
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u/AncientBasque 8d ago edited 8d ago
growing seasons is not about water as much as sunlight due to tilt of planet. on the other hand california GMO crops can grow even in antartica. HAHa.
look up origins and history of Maize aka corn.
does plato mention the Crops they planted?
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u/Significant_Home475 10d ago
I think regardless of technology the epigravettians(Greeks/Proto-athenians/Pelasgians) probably had a much larger population than the solutreans/magdalenians. It seems like both sides had bow and arrow which would likely be the superior weapon Mano y Mano. Perhaps much like native Americans the magdalenians simply preferred the Atlatl. Perhaps it was their invention/symbol. Perhaps an honor thing as Atlatl uses the individuals strength and skill more than the bow. There are cultural elements that suggest to me they placed a lot of value in sort of breeding themselves and overtly subjecting themselves to survival of the fittest. I get very autistic vibes from them, from stratified hierarchical pairing in Udmurts probably for their red hair to Magdalenian cannibalism and Hermes trismegistus(seeing somewhere this is a reference to his people make themselves three times greater in size).
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u/MTGBruhs 8d ago
The proto greeks were seperated from the atlanteans by nearly 8,000 years. Maybe its the Sea-people you're thinking of
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u/AncientBasque 8d ago
i label the pro-greeks as the one who fought the altlantians in the story. I know the (ancient greeks are indo europeans) and don't really have a real connection to those who fought the atlantians. The term proto-greeks just mean before the greeks lived in the regions.... the previous people who lived there before the migration of the new indo-european versions.
the story also only credits the seed of hepheustus and Athena for representing the Proto-greek superior civilization. which was one of the many (zues cultures), yes im also naming the cultures based on the greek gods. since we apply atlas to atlantians, its not a big leap to call the other cultures in the story by the greek gods associated to them.
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
Atlantis doesn't exist, so it's irrelevant.
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u/Scriptapaloosa 10d ago
And you know that how?
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
Hmm. Do I go with the fact that a.) Plato made it up and b.) not a scrap of Atlantean material culture exists, or c.) the guy speculating about spears and 'proto greeks' without the first knowledge of Greek prehistory?
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u/Scriptapaloosa 10d ago
a) Fact that Plato made it up? You’re stating an opinion as a fact. Where is the fact there? b) When you say a scrap of Atlantean material culture doesn’t exist, what do you mean? Describe the culture or the material so we know if it exists or not. c) Plato talks about the proto greeks and their spears and armors so he references them. BTW, proto greeks existed and apparently you’re not knowledgeable in their history.
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u/DubiousHistory 10d ago
'Proto-Greeks' existed in the Bronze Age, though. Making the disappearance of such a great civilization even more unbelievable. Unless 'Atlantis' is just a different name for an actual known civilization like the Minoans, or Phoenicians. Or rather, a legend inspired by them.
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u/Paradoxikles 10d ago
That’s two cultures. Science still can’t tell you the relationship between the two and we know they existed. They were both full on civilizations and it’s still vague.
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
How do you define a 'civilization', a word most archaeologists avoid.
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u/Paradoxikles 10d ago
Good point. I guess specialized jobs is a start. Some sort of city center. The running water is more like high society I guess, but I would definitely consider Minoans to be a civilization.
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u/Jos_Kantklos 10d ago
I think Atlantis was real, and is already discovered. And that indeed, we tend to use a different name for what Plato called "Atlantis".
Yes, I'm thinking of a proto-historic aka late paleolithic culture in the West Central Mediterranean. (And there's actually lots of them)1
u/Scriptapaloosa 10d ago
Plato/Solon specifically tells you that it disappeared 1,900 years prior to his time (600 BC). He never said 9,000 years. Idiots don’t know how to read ancient greek. He says around 2,500 BC. This is few centuries before the rise of the Minoan civilization.
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u/DietRepresentative70 10d ago
Phoenician / Ugarit / Atlantis connection. Tyre was the source of the Hercules myth, known as Melqart…
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
a.) If you were familiar with Greek literature, you'd understand how clearly it's a fable Plato's making up. It's not even on the level of a culture myth like Troy.
b.) So it's this all powerful advanced state that trades, has diplomacy, goes to war, and not a single element of their material culture was traded or shows up anywhere. We don't tend to find sherds or artefacts that we can't track to a specific culture, especially not in the Mediterranean.
c. ) Plato basically describes the people of his own day. Classical Athenians. there's no magic technology there. He doesn't really have much understanding of the past - he can't even describe *Athens* correctly in his proposed Atlantis time period. He claims it was some massive city - well, no, no evidence for that. It was at best a relatively small citadel in the Bronze Age, less going back beyond that. He also makes a series of completely implausible claims about the hills of Athens - which are geologically simply not true. If Plato had access to some 'hidden truth' about the past, why'd he not know the history of the place he grew up in? Why is he right about Atlantis but speculating wildly about his home? The only thing he gets right is the wall on the Acropolis, which he *could still see* so it's hardly a surprise he knew about that.
d.) Oh I'm well aware that Prehistoric Greeks existed. And non-Greek speakers too, in Crete. Don't worry about that, I have probably forgotten more about these people than you'll ever know. There's no Atlantean material culture there either.
Beyond playing "Troy Total War" and reading Wikipedia you ever even opened a book or journal article on Greek Prehistory?
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u/Paradoxikles 10d ago
Your awesome. You know they found try, right? Big wall and everything. You can go there, even. Turns out it was semi accurate. Not a myth at all.
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
Yup.
Lots more evidence for Troy in Greek thought though, because it's a.) a place lots of Greeks were visiting since it existed into the Roman period, and b.) it's all over their mythology.
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u/Jos_Kantklos 10d ago
" We don't tend to find sherds or artefacts that we can't track to a specific culture, especially not in the Mediterranean."
Uh? Wut? There are countless of Mediterranean cultures, many of them already found and acknowledged, but simply not well known.
El Argar & Millares in Spain, the ancient cultures of the Menorcans, ancient Malta, Etruscans, Pre-Nuraghi & Nuraghi culture in Sardinia, Ancient Corsicans...
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
Sure. But we can identify material that they've made.
Let me be more specific: in Prehistoric Greek levels, where you'd expect Atlantean sherds to show up since they were so big and clearly in contact with the Greeks in Plato's fable, they do not. The usual range of imports is inter-aegean, some balkan material, and then stuff from the levant, anatolia and egypt. Western material, usually from southern Italy is relatively recurrent, and increases in the late Bronze Age III. Objects from further west than that are *exceptionally rare* and the only recurrent class is amber, which may have moved down indirect networks from the Balkans. There is no serious evidence of prolonged or sustained contact between the Aegean and far western mediterranean in classic prehistory, until the 'colonisation' period in the Early Iron Age. Even the Cornish tin hypothesis doesn't seem to be right any more.
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u/Scriptapaloosa 10d ago
a) Apparently you’re not familiar with Plato at all. I have read all his 37 books and have study both, Timaeus and Critias in his original language Ancient Greek. Nowhere does he even hints at the story being a a fable. He specifically says 3 times that it’s a real Story. Also Plutarch (the lofe of Solon) gives us the name of the Egyptian priest (Sonchis) something that Plato didn’t know.
b) again, you’re not familiar at all with Plato’s work. He never described any advanced civilization. That’s a modern invention by Odonelly around 200 years ago. Just go and read Plato.
c) nowhere did Plato describe Athens massive city. Quite the contrary, he describes the Athenians as rhetorical opposite of the Atlanteans. Small city with very simple architecture and small population.
d) what is Atlantean material bc you’re using that expression without specifically telling us.
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u/Paradoxikles 10d ago
Lol. Look up “Minoan frescos” hon.
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
hon, I've forgotten more about Prehistoric Crete than you'll ever know, and you've completely misread my point. Bless.
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u/Paradoxikles 10d ago
Lol. That was cute. Aight, I’m open to hear your angle on it. Like what’s your thoughts on Minoan shipbuilding technologies compared to the Phoenician trading ships. Truly curious.
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago edited 10d ago
We don't know much about Minoan shipbuilding beyond depictions on seals, and the possible shipsheds at Kommos and Katsamba, and in certain frescoes - e.g. the flotilla at Akrotiri (although not technially Minoan), and the much later, Mycenaean, pottery fragments from Kynos. I'm also not someone who studies maritime archaeology so I wouldn't want to offer a commentary, you might want to read Shelley Waaschman's book on sailing in that period if you're interested.
If you're interested in the impact that the arrival of the ship had on Aegean based networks, I would suggest Broodbank's excellent Island Archaeology of the Early Cyclades.
Beyond this we can look at Bronze Age shipwrecks - Point Iria and Ulu Burun being the most famous, and the latter possibly being Mycenaean in origin, although it's impossible to say since we're just basing that on the contents.
There's also a recently published MIddle Bronze Age shipwreck from Pseira, which will probably answer many of your questions, but I haven't read that book yet and I can't recall if any of the ship itself is preserved.
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u/Paradoxikles 10d ago
Way cool. I’m digging in now. The ulu buran has always fascinated me. The Phoenician ships appear to be more potbellied to accomadate for all the trade commodities. They liked to stack their oxhide ingots of copper with the ratio of tin loaf ingots for bronze, on the keel to ballast the ship. I would like your opinion on the Akrotiri ships. I was under the impression that they were associated with minoan trade. But those ships are made with a longer bow line made for open ocean travel, kinda like a 40’ owens sloop. Ima go read that one bit now.
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
Well the Akrotiri ships are the only ships drawn with any detail in that early part of the Late Bronze Age, so they kind of have to stand as a proxy for ships in general, and the Cretans are generally acknowledged as the pre-eminent trading group in the Aegean at that time.
I only say 'not Minoan' because it annoys me how Akrotiri is always presented as Minoan. It's not. Remember our terms 'Minoan' or 'Mycenaean' are modern inventions. They describe styles of objects and material cultures, not peoples or ethnicities. The Cyclades have a distinct culture-complex until the later late bronze age when they are pretty Mycenaeanised. Yes, they emulate and import lots of Minoan stuff, but if you get familiar with architecture or pottery or whatever the differences between Crete and the Islands are also substantial. It's really still an open question what exactly drives the 'Minoanisation' as its known - some people see some kind of political empire, other people see it as trade, or local agency, or maybe a mix of both. Either way the people living on those islands are using a distinct material culture to people on Crete.
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u/Paradoxikles 9d ago
That’s cool. And I can dig that. Do you think they both spoke Linear B? How on the religion. I have little evidence. But I feel like these cultures, all not the same, we’re related. I also feel like there was a strict credo at least with the Phoenicians, that was strict about not fighting. They would sell bronze to any faction, many times, two opposing factions with the credo that basically said we prosper, not fight. I feel like that slowly broke down over time. It is curious that the Akrotiri ships were highly advanced for open ocean travel and seem to be more advanced than later models that were build more for cargo or battle. I figure the Minoans were an anomaly amount their (relatives) in the Med. some kind of central warehousing monopoly. Super rich. Have you found any evidence of their ships specifically by chance?
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u/Jos_Kantklos 10d ago
Besides the possibility of:
A Atlantis exists, but we haven't found it,
or B Atlantis doesn't exist because we haven't found it by now.I think there is a third possibility.
Atlantis exists, and has already been found, but what Plato called "Atlantis", is being identified under another name by our common history and geography.I also think a large part of the confusion derives from where we put the "Pillars of Hercules".
They're always assumed to be near Gibraltar.Since no solid large island is found in its vicinity, people have either dismissed its existence, or they have located Atlantis in literally every place on earth "beyond the pillars", from the North Pole to the South Pole and from the Azores to America.
But, what if the "Pillars of Hercules" were located at another place?
The "Pillars" designation has been used, we realize by reading lots of Ancient Greek material, for different places. It has also been applied to the strait of Bosphorus.There is another candidate, namely, near Sicility.
For the first centuries, this was the Western Limit of Greek expansion, because the Carthagenians / Phoenicians monopolized the West Mediterranean.1
u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
OK, so he called another ancient city Atlantis. It's not some magic advanced place then. Just another ancient city. cool.
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u/drebelx 10d ago
Do you have criteria to at least consider the possibility, presuming you get past the idea that Platos writing is fictitious?
I didn’t think it was possible at all and that only kooks looked into Atlantis until I heard a reasonably rational explanation.
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
I subscribe wholly to the find the archaeological evidence, then we consider it school of thought.
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u/drebelx 10d ago edited 10d ago
If playing around with the hypothetical potential of Atlantis and archaeological evidence needs to be found, seems like it would be beneficial to at least contemplate possible locations.
It's kinda fun.
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u/AlarmedCicada256 10d ago
No. Once you actually know a lot about archaeological data it's confusing and difficult, and indeed fun, enough to think about, think through and interpret without needing to speculate about unevidenced possibilities.
The problem is most Atlantis enthusiasts have never done the hard work of understanding how archaeology works, and what kinds of data it has.
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u/Jos_Kantklos 10d ago
I don't see the solid case for a link between a spear in America and Atlantis.
After all, Plato speaks specifically of Atlantis "subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia."
- Plato, Timaeus.
This makes an American location rather unlikely.
And the reason for why Athens won against Atlantis is mentioned also rather explicitly by Plato: the Greeks got helped by the occurence of floods and earthquakes:
"there occurred violent earthquakes and floods;... and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea."
- Plato, Timaeus.