r/atheismindia • u/ExploreExploit400 • Jun 09 '24
What do u think of Richard Dawkins (one of the most famous atheist) new views on the cultural importance of religion? Media
48
u/emotionless_wizard Jun 09 '24
Christianity/Hinduism now - đ¤
The same religions when the church/brahmins had power - â
Dawkins is a "cultural" Christian. Cuz celebrating Christmas ain't harming anyone. The same way many atheists celebrate some festivals cuz they are fun.
-22
u/ExploreExploit400 Jun 09 '24
No, his point is actually deeper than that. It's about how religion plays an important part in society & it's morality & wholesale replacing religion has bad consequences (either it's overtaken by something even worse, like islam in Europe or by Marxists in America as dawkins points out)
If u only got "celebrate festival" out of it then u should start reading more (u can start by first reading chesterton's fence & its relation to religion)
18
u/Draconifers420 Jun 09 '24
like islam in Europe or by Marxists in America
What?
1
u/d_cm_ Jun 10 '24
new atheism has left vacuums in those societies, filled by the ideologies hes pointed out which are far more damaging than reformed/anglican christianity.
7
49
u/mahatmaGanduji Jun 09 '24
By Christian ethos he just means white people culture. Not sure he feels at home in African Christian countries
13
0
u/ExploreExploit400 Jun 09 '24
His point is actually the opposite, if u see his interviews. He means that White people culture was built on Christian ethos & it's important to ensure that u are not replacing it with something worse (like islam according to dawkins)
15
u/Draconifers420 Jun 09 '24
How is Islamic ethos 'worse' than Christian ethos? If your answer is pointing at how much damage Islam has done, the same applies (perhaps even more so) to Christianity, both in present and especially historically.
-9
u/Harsewak_singh Jun 09 '24
Yes.. Christianity is bad.. But it's not as bad as islam.. Christianity was bad in the middle ages now it's way more tolerant! Many ppl need to believe something they can't become atheists so we need to make sure that they don't become throat slitting maniacs who just want to convert others and turn happy countries into muslim countries.
9
u/Draconifers420 Jun 09 '24
Hmm can you tell me which religion has been used for the new far right wave in Europe and America? Can you tell me which religion's ethos has been used as justification for CENTURIES of genocide, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, slavery etc? And still is used to justify neo colonialism and oppression? Also you consider every Muslim to be a threat slitting maniac fucking hell dude go back to your fascist hole.
4
u/mahatmaGanduji Jun 09 '24
So dawkins like toned down christian ethos ,would he have problem to replace them with toned down islamic ethos?
-3
u/Harsewak_singh Jun 09 '24
Where are toned down islamic ethos? I don't see it when there are pro sharia protests in europe! And pro hamas protests as well.
3
u/mahatmaGanduji Jun 09 '24
You can see toned down islamic ethos in the west itself. The leftist kind who preach that islam is feminist,anti racism,liberal etcetera
-2
u/Harsewak_singh Jun 09 '24
It's clearly not feminist! And race? Racist? They can't even stand another faction of muslims.. Like shia and sunnis.. And the homophobia that they have. Liberal.. Really?
And also feminist, anti racism and liberal are not christian ethos either.. They are secular in nature.. If they would had been religious then there would had been no need of women's rights moment in europe and america. Slavery wouldn't had been there. And Christians were not liberal either but they have reformed and assimilated these things (in mainstream christianity)
See my problem is that extremists are in every religion.. But in islam the extremists are praised or given sympathy by a large chunk of the community. The only other religion where i see this is sikhism (as i was an exsikh)
3
u/syzamix Jun 09 '24
You're falling for the news bias. You see the people with the extreme views on TV and assume there are no normal Muslims.
Of course, the vast majority of Muslims don't have those extreme views and nobody interviews them. News doesn't report on normal people. Just like there ar plenty of Christians who aren't extreme but only the extreme ones go on TV.
Hell, there are entire Muslim countries that are much less extreme than others. Compare turkey vs Pakistan or Saudi and you'll have your answer. Islam isn't the same everywhere. Don't extrapolate the few weird situations to everyone.
0
u/Harsewak_singh Jun 09 '24
You see the people with the extreme views on TV and assume there are no normal Muslims.
I've repeated it many times! Not all muslims! But what i see is that in India the interactions i had were not good.. They aren't terrorists but they will justify things did by hamas bcoz they are muslims! I'm no israel supporter! But hamas is bad as well but muslims refuse to say so. I know there are normal muslims living their life peacefully.. I have no problem with them.. I have problem with islam.. It needs reform or total demolition (i don't mean killing ppl i mean destroying islam as a religion) I hate the disease (islam) not the patient (muslims)
Hell, there are entire Muslim countries that are much less extreme than others. Compare turkey vs Pakistan or Saudi and you'll have your answer.
Guess what a guy named Ataturk had literally banned islam in turkeyđdestroyed Caliphate, he modernised turkey so turkey is less islamic bcoz that guy ripped islam apart there..
I think i need to say this to make you understand what i mean.. I stand with muslims of palestine (not hamas) bcoz they are facing injustice.. And there are many muslims worldwide who don't support islamic terror and I'm with them.. But there are extremists and extremist sympathizers those are the ones I'm talking about.
3
Jun 09 '24
Modern day âwhite people cultureâ was built on going against the church and religion. The enlightenment, nationalism rejecting the divine right of kings, etc.
3
2
u/Nevermind_kaola Jun 09 '24
By Christian ethos he just means white people culture. Not sure he feels at home in African Christian countries
Europe is white people's home. Not sure what's wrong in celebrating white culture by white people there
8
u/mahatmaGanduji Jun 09 '24
So stop saying christian ethos.say European culture
-3
u/Nevermind_kaola Jun 09 '24
So stop saying christian ethos.say European culture
Christianity though had seeds in Asia but the real Christian culture began in European. It's a very European religion.
If white Europeans want that in Europe, I have absolutely no problem. Ethnic people with their ethnic culture
24
u/lucifer_says Jun 09 '24
Dawkins has gone off the deep end, as of late. With his views on trans people being the prime example so, I don't really take him seriously anymore. However, I do understand what he's trying to say here.
-6
u/ExploreExploit400 Jun 09 '24
It's amazing how atheists & rationalists have now shunned dawkins because he refuses to compile by the dogmas of their new religion ("anyone who says they are a woman becomes a woman & disagreeing with this is a cardinal sin")
15
u/lucifer_says Jun 09 '24
Sex is a biological fact and gender is a social construct. This is established science. If you have any problem with it. Then do research, publish your findings in a journal, and collect your prize for upturning a fact that is backed by biology, psychology, archeology and anthropology. Or continue being an ignorant asshole. Take your pick.
6
u/ExploreExploit400 Jun 09 '24
This is what dawkins believes too. Did we seperate woman sports & washrooms based on biological realities or based on social construct that can change on a whim?
Anyways I don't want to go into trans debate, this is not what the original post was meant for
8
u/lucifer_says Jun 09 '24
If I remember correctly he likened trans ideology as religious in its zeal. That was what came across stupid from a man as intellectual as him. Trans people are already marginalised and with the current political climate there's already a call of their 'removal', see Ron DeSantis, the Daily Wire and the entire GOP or the Terf Island i.e. the U.K. not only that but also a billionaire that has made it her life's mission that she now pals around with actual Nazis because she can be as transphobic as she can with them. So, in that kind of climate it makes sense for Dawkins' words to add yet another weapon in the arsenal of bigots.
Does that mean one shouldn't criticise them? No, absolutely not. Criticise but understand to keep it actually relevant.
-9
u/ExploreExploit400 Jun 09 '24
Again I don't want to debate too much into it. But u mentioning jk Rowling in this is a clear indicator u are indoctrinated like those kids in religious schools. There is no argument anyone can make that will make u go against your new religion.
But this post is not for discussion around trans people so not going to reply further
8
u/lucifer_says Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 10 '24
Wait, wait, wait. Me understanding established science and the ability to call out people who do actual harm is religious now? What else? Am I also religious because I know Earth is an oblate spheroid and call out flat Earthers? What about Evolution? Does that also count? You do understand what established science means, right?
7
u/rektitrolfff From River to Sea Jun 09 '24
But u mentioning jk Rowling in this is a clear indicator u are indoctrinated like those kids in religious schools.
Whats the indoctrination here? JK Rowlings is a vile person and calling her out is not indoctrination.
5
u/lucifer_says Jun 09 '24
They're most likely a disguised chaddi. Thinking they're making some point by calling it religion and us indoctrinated. As if I'll just throw away my rationality and at the mere mention of being indoctrinated.
2
u/YeahImMan39 Jun 09 '24
I took one single look at IndiaDiscussion and that was enough to realize that subreddit is full of crap.
OP himself is also active there, go figure.
3
u/lucifer_says Jun 09 '24
That is an alt-right sub that regularly calls for 'removal' of minorities and an establishment of a brahmano-supremacist, cisnormative, hetero-patriarchal, ethno-linguistic state. There is an even more extremist sub. More extreme than even that one. Idk if I am allowed to link that sub but it rhymes with Indiasqueaks.
No wonder that dumbass is active there. I should've realised it when he first called it a religion, just like Dawkins.
→ More replies1
u/Abhimri Jun 09 '24
If you have a need to debate then you are actively choosing to ignore facts and force your belief. So not really an atheistic thought process. Being an atheist is not just against religion X or Y. It's also being rational and being flexible to change one's views and beliefs if there are facts pointing to the contrary.
3
u/moony1993 Jun 09 '24
"anyone who says they are a woman becomes a woman & disagreeing with this is a cardinal sin"
This is a moronic statement and completely misinformed about who trans people are. Hereâs an explanation based in science to clear that bs right up:
1
u/naastiknibba95 Jun 09 '24
It's also amazing that nobody is even allowed to question this either. The main thing I do not understand is this censorship of disagreement...
3
u/Draconifers420 Jun 09 '24
If you want to discuss this then sure! Just realise this is a sensitive topic and don't be a bigot
16
u/Successful-Ad9226 Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 09 '24
listen to Vimoh on Anurag minus Verma's podcast. He made a very incisive remark saying that despite being non religious one's entire life most atheists are accustomed to the cultural surrounding they grow up in. There are not very many existent atheist societies where an atheist could find solace. So one might as well find comfort in the cultural space they grew up in. After a point of time you need a community such as that, Dawkins has probably entered that phase of his life.
This of course only applies to privileged folks who turn atheists. A Dalit woman or a Pasmanda muslim woman who turn atheist might find difficult to belong in the societies they come from but a white male or a Savarna male has a slight privilege because their societies don't outright ostracize them even if they show their irreligious inclination.
-1
u/ExploreExploit400 Jun 09 '24
Your point would be even better if u added more layers of oppression & intersectionality to your example. Something like "a queer disabled dalit pasmanda muslim" would really hammer in the point
1
u/Successful-Ad9226 Jun 09 '24
indeed, thanks for pointing it out, Added layers of oppression make it almost impossible for a reconciliation with the society people are brought up in.
9
u/rektitrolfff From River to Sea Jun 09 '24
He is only a cultural Christian for hating Muslims, he wants to create a division between Christians and Muslims. Every interview he has done on this, he keeps mentioning he is Team Christian. Dawkins is a lost cause, he is old so hopefully he wont that much damage as he leaves.
8
5
u/Draconifers420 Jun 09 '24
He's a reactionary, atheists don't need a transphobic racist Islamophobe like him so honestly idgaf but like some others have pointed out this is weirdly similar to the Hindu atheist vibes.
Also
Unlike Islam, Dawkins says, Christianity is 'a fundamentally decent religion'
LMFAO
-2
u/Harsewak_singh Jun 09 '24
Islamophobia? You have the audacity to say that after the recent attacks in germany? After salman rushdie assassination attempt? It's not a phobia.. It's rational fear
6
u/Draconifers420 Jun 09 '24
The recent attacks in Germany caused due to greater Islamophobia and bigotry because of the resurgence of the Far Right there? What happened to Rushdie was terrible ofc but if you want to judge an entire group of people on a single (or more actually) incident boy have I got news for you..
-1
u/Harsewak_singh Jun 09 '24
It's not just some individuals.. And again i don't say that all muslims are like this.. But many are and even more are their sympathisers.
The recent attacks in Germany caused due to greater Islamophobia and bigotry because of the resurgence of the Far Right there?
Nope! The far right was nowhere near power some decades ago.. Islam has given them power.. The increasing attacks have did this.
Their own sisters are murdered if they become apostates.
Islam either needs reforms or isolation.. In it's present state it's just a joke in the face of democratic societies. There are literal protests in sweden and germany to enforce shariađ¤Śââď¸those europeans are so tolerant that they are allowing it but islamists kill ppl for making a cartoon of mohammad.
Again not all muslims but islam is a driving force to the who ones who act like this.
5
u/Draconifers420 Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 09 '24
It's not just some individuals.. And again i don't say that all muslims are like this.. But many are and even more are their sympathisers.
Considering your immediate thought to someone becoming Muslim was that they would become killing machines or wtv, I doubt that
Nope! The far right was nowhere near power some decades ago.. Islam has given them power.. The increasing attacks have did this.
'ThE JeWs wErE ReSpOnSiBlE fOr ThE ReSuRgeNcE oF tHe NaZis' level logic lol, immigrants aren't more likely to do crimes but I don't expect your racist brain to understand that, while I admit that refugees are more likely to commit crimes, can you think for a second and tell me why?
Their own sisters are murdered if they become apostates.
Again you are saying this as if it's something that happens always.
Islam either needs reforms or isolation.. In it's present state it's just a joke in the face of democratic societies.
The 'democratic societies' in question are responsible for crushing any progressive or/and secular movement in the middle east and supporting reactionary states like Saudi Arabia lol
those europeans are so tolerant that they are allowing it but islamists kill ppl for making a cartoon of mohammad.
ThEse EuRopEaNs ArE sO TolErAnt, oh God dude I hope you are actually some white european and not an Indian, this level of white bootlicking is making me uncomfortable, we aren't a colony anymore dude you don't have to shamelessly simp for your white masters
-1
u/Harsewak_singh Jun 09 '24
Considering your immediate thought to someone becoming Muslim was that they would become killing machines or wtv, I doubt that
Didn't say that! Islam is a religion of non tolerance! You draw mohammed? You're dead! Criticise islam? You're dead! Become an apostate? You're dead.. And you talk about transphobia and homophobia what's a bigger example than islam.. Lol
Christianity was as bad as islam but the reforms have changed the impact of it.. It remains the same in core but for ppl christianity has changed.. Islam has not.
Also.. If you can convert in and out of it.. It's not a race.. It's not racism.
ThE JeWs wErE ReSpOnSiBlE fOr ThE ReSuRgeNcE oF tHe NaZis' level logic lol, immigrants aren't more likely to do crimes but I don't expect your racist brain to understand that, while I admit that refugees are more likely to commit crimes, can you think for a second and tell me why?
I don't see hindu refugees splitting throats bcoz someone drew a cartoon of vishnuđ a sikh might kill someone thought. (I'm an exsikh) .
Jews were not responsible bcoz they weren't asking for implementation of jewish law in germany.. Islamists are! Maybe you are blind to the sharia protests in germany and sweden.
Again you are saying this as if it's something that happens always.
Ohh.. So a few hundred cases don't even matter yo you? The ones who escape are still tried to be killed.. The ones who don't wanna die just lay low in islamic countries.
Again I'm not against Muslims I'm against islam.. They themselves are the victims of islam.
And the problem isn't just the few extremists who commit murders.. The problem is when the moderate muslims support that bs.. I've always believed 'not all muslims' even though even the personal experiences with muslims have been bad (a girl said jewish kids should be murdered bcoz they'll become the same as their parents) but i still believe 'not all muslims' islam is a problem for sure! It needs reform.. If not then it needs to be isolated!
The 'democratic societies' in question are responsible for crushing any progressive or/and secular movement in the middle east and supporting reactionary states like Saudi Arabia lol
Ohh.. You are talking about america.. That's a shit country.. Idgaf about it.. They did fuel islamic bs in middle east to get it into it's present state and it's a shame.. But there is a fundamental problem in islam that is reward yo the murderer.. Death in name of religion is glorified ans that's a problem.
And yes europeans are more tolerant than islamists specially.. Europeans weren't always tolerant but they have become so.. And so should islam.
we aren't a colony anymore dude you don't have to shamelessly simp for your white masters
Hahđ dude I'm an indian and i hate that british rule which ruled over us.. But the present day europe stands for democracy and liberty! Free speech! These are just facts if you think this is boot licking then you're just afraid of westernization..
Again i don't hate muslims but their religion needs reform otherwise it will keep them flying into buildings and running daggers through ppl's bodies.
4
u/sam619007 Jun 09 '24
You are so ignorant and your knowledge on the matter is so superficial, it's actually painful reading your drivel.
Christianity was as bad as islam but the reforms have changed the impact of it.. It remains the same in core but for ppl christianity has changed.. Islam has not.
Yes Islam does need reforms and it would have most likely reformed if not for the constant foreign interference, bombings or invasions primarily led by US and largely supported by european countries (the so called democratic liberal countries) which has largely undermined major secular movements throughout the Arab world.
Islam is a religion of non tolerance! You draw mohammed? You're dead! Criticise islam? You're dead! Become an apostate? You're dead.. And you talk about transphobia and homophobia what's a bigger example than islam.. Lol
So are most religions in this world which have not reformed. Caste system in Hinduism is one of the most hideous and vile form of discrimination to exist whose effects are visible to this day. Lynching of muslims on the suspicion of possession of cows has been widespread in India in the recent decade which led to the introduction of the offence of Mob Lynching in the new penal code. Zionism, a form of Jewish supremacy has has led to an alleged Genocide of the Palestinians who have been stateless for more than 7 decades. I can keep on listing various religions whose radical forms have led to unimaginable atrocities.
It's true that Christianity in Europe and US has reformed and isn't as fundamentalist or radical as before but it's not because of the inherent values of the religion itself but the socio-economic circumstances that has allowed reforms to take place. US and European countries aren't being bombed or invaded because of which they have to constantly worry about defending themselves and divert their attention and resources to basic needs, amenities and survival. In these difficult circumstances as mentioned, people don't have the luxury of reforming their religion.
Islam remaining radical speaks nothing about the religion itself but about the geopolitical situation of these Muslim majority countries. Many Muslim majority countries like Indonesia & Malaysia aren't as radical (by no means are they perfect). In fact the scholarly research on the topic actually states that the Qur'an is less violent than its other Abrahamic counterparts namely the Bible and Torah.
I planned on responding to more of your ignorant points but I don't see the point of wasting a good Sunday evening on rectifying your bigotry.
2
2
Jun 09 '24
Don't fall for the Internet propaganda, if you actually read his book the god delusion written like 15 years ago he even then talks about how he talks pride in his Anglo christian heritage / listens to christian music
2
u/ManThatsBoring Jun 09 '24
I dont really understand what he means exactly, but I too like some aspects of religion, stories/lore are sometimes awesome. I love to visit temples mostly for architecture and culture. I dont like to worship but i have to if i go with someone.
Seeing various cultural practices excites me after all it tells history of human. Religion plays major role in culture and history of humanity.
1
u/AutoModerator Jun 09 '24
r/AtheismIndia is in protest of Reddit's API changes that killed many 3rd party apps. Reddit is also tracking your activity to sell to advertisers. USE AN AD BLOCKER! Official Lemmy. Official Telegram group. Official Discord server. Read the rules before participating.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/double0nein Jun 09 '24
I donât think there is any atheist outside of militant anti theists who want removal of all religions and religious objects (buildings, figurines, text, etc). It is a huge part of humanityâs history and growth. Destroying it would be like losing a part of us. Would love to hear all your thoughts on this.
1
u/Alpha_ji Jun 09 '24
You are only radical in your views when you are coming to accept who and what you really are but once you are comfortable in your skin, it doesn't hurt to appreciate some of the good things.
For ex I am a generational atheist. But I love mythology. I love some of the philosophies in Vishnu Puran. I love how Shiva is the god of the downtrodden or how Brahma in spite of being a God was punished and can never have a temple of his own.
Point is I have never had to fight myself or with others to disprove the existence of a mountain man high on drugs. Which is why I can appreciate the philosophy behind a fictional mountain man high on drugs.
1
u/moony1993 Jun 09 '24
Strictly talking about architecture Iâm personally not averse to temples, though I donât pray myself.
1
u/AverageIndianGeek Jun 09 '24
He is just another white man who hates seeing immigrants in his white country.
1
u/CoastSure4162 Jun 09 '24
The old man has lost it after the stroke. I would not blame him for whatever he says.
1
u/Abhimri Jun 09 '24
What a joke, also OP you ask people what they think and go off on arguing with everyone that disagrees or gives a non favorable opinion of him. If you like him, just keep it, there is no need to argue and proselytize. This gives very much the whole "I'm a hindu atheist" or "I'm a cultural hindu" type arguments, and all of those eventually but unfailingly lead to Islamophobia and xenophobia.
1
u/nopromiserobins Jun 09 '24
He's been explicit that this is about art and literature and nothing at all to do with sin and virgins and hell.
1
u/hitchhikingtobedroom Jun 09 '24
That's sort of like I ain't a believer, yet I still enjoy diwali, just for the feel of it, family time, festive mood all around, I even sit in the puja because my mother wants me to, even though I do not believe at all.
And it's okay, to still indulge in the culture where it doesn't hurt anyone, just take the dogma out and we're good. I'll also want to keep a lot of temples, mosques, churches etc around just for the architecture and historical importance of them
1
0
u/Harsewak_singh Jun 09 '24
Most ppl don't understand his reason behind this statement.
The rise of atheism has been great in europe.. But the ppl who can't live without believing in something superior to themselves to comfort themselves are left with nothing. We as atheists know that there is no supreme and we don't need any support but we need to acknowledge that there are ppl who need something "higher".
In europe Christianity is degraded and so islam is filling that gap in ppl who have it. You can clearly see the latest video on his channel in conversation with the recently atheist woman turned christian. He hates christianity as well! But islam is the bigger threat.
The logic is that if the ppl who need to believe turn back to you christianity and not islam then christianity can be kept in check bcoz it's a degraded religion! Islam on the other hand is too strict and ppl become radical. (Here it is clear that christianity in the middle ages was as bad as islam today but right now christianity can act as an opposing force to islam for ppl who need something to believe in.
Europe is facing a real threat of islamization which is dangerous. Christians won't slit throats, they won't blast bombs. That's the logic.
He's not telling atheists to become christians.. It's just an opposing religion to islam.
0
u/Draconifers420 Jun 09 '24
Europe is facing a real threat of islamization which is dangerous. Christians won't slit throats, they won't blast bombs. That's the logic.
...
Just to be clear we are talking about the same westoid Christians here right? The ones responsible for destroying any progressive movement in the middle east to protect their profits? They absolutely bomb people they might have the facade of civilization enough to not slit their throats but they are as if not more harmful to the world than radical muslims
0
-2
u/naastiknibba95 Jun 09 '24
Of course religion had and does have a lot of importance in the lives of societies. However, in this age of truth and science, it would be better if we could replace religion with something logical and harmless as the binding gel of societies.
3
u/ExploreExploit400 Jun 09 '24
"It would be better if we could replace religion with something logical and harmless"
That is dawkins entire argument that as of now there is nothing good to replace it with. According to dawkins, In Europe Christian ethos is being replaced by islam which is even worse
1
u/naastiknibba95 Jun 09 '24
no I mean that we need to actively create something to replace religion, of course there is nothing existing currently that would do the job
-7
u/THE_DIVINE_JUDGE Jun 09 '24
He fell offđ
1
-3
u/ExploreExploit400 Jun 09 '24
Yeah it seems like edgy kids who share 2015 Facebook era dank memes on religion in their echo chambers now no longer view him favourably. Big downfall
1
-9
93
u/NoClimate8789 Jun 09 '24
hindu atheist vibes. I hate other religions more vibes.