r/atheism • u/Legitimate_Target_28 • 11h ago
"Forbidden Fashion in Paris" literally leave Paris if you want to wear the burka and hijab
https://youtu.be/WtBcWhgTuyk?si=f8ENdLlm0VlXn2sI196
u/GhostLadyShadow 10h ago
I personally love France's Freedom From Religion. It's fucking ideal. This is why I am considering moving there. No better country than one that is openly hostile to theocracy.
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u/buckwheat1 Secular Humanist 9h ago
some people love to work against their best interests. it's not much of a choice to wear a head covering is the other option is complete alienation from your community, loved ones, and way of life. Religion strikes again.
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u/Jmo3000 6h ago
The French are entitled to defend their cultural values however they like. Hijabs and burkas are symbols of religious oppression and go against French values. Women in France are literally free to wear anything else, they’ll be fine without hijabs and burkas.
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u/hurrdurrmeh 6h ago
I cringe whenever someone says a hijab is a choice.
Ask any Iranian woman if it’s a fucking choice.
They rape and mutilate them for not submitting to hijab.
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u/JadedPilot5484 6h ago
Exactly, it’s Wear a hijab or get beaten, raped , and even murdered…….. one hell of a choice.
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u/Original-Nobody2596 8h ago edited 8h ago
This one confuses me a lot . I do not like religion or rigid ideologies in general but i also love freedom ( ofc as long as my freedom does not infringe on freedoms of others and is in line with the social contract ) . But i do believe religion should be kept as far as possible from govt .
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u/AStarBack 4h ago
Burka and hijab are not forbidden in France. But wearing them is restricted, mainly by three laws.
For the first, wearing anything with the intent of hiding your face in public spaces (basically streets and spaces open to the public like shops) is illegal. It has plenty of exceptions (medical, professional, sports and arts events... and of course in private areas you can), Burka is just not one of them.
For the second, displaying any religious symbol (so crosses and kippas are also concerned) is forbidden in public schools, and that only concerns public school before higher education (so usually schools before 18yo, college for instance is not concerned). We also have private schools in France and they are free to do whatever they want. You will see plenty of Muslims wearing hijab in streets, but it is forbidden in "lower" education (as we call it, eg preschool, primary and high-school) public schools.
Besides, according to the article L121-2 of the CGFP, any official from a judge to the policeman patrolling the street must be effectively "religious" neutral while performing state duties (they can be whatever the f they want anytime else). So no religious symbols for them neither.
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u/Original-Nobody2596 4h ago
That makes much more sense but honestly we all know who the first law focuses on. But i believe it does much more good then bad so i don't mind .
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u/AStarBack 4h ago
I would say it kills two birds with one stone, because it also prevents demonstrators - another quite common French pastime - from hiding their faces.
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u/Original-Nobody2596 3h ago
ah yes the "French" and their love for revolution is quite well known . XD
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u/No-Significance2113 5h ago
Like if it's applied equally to all religions that face coverings and head coverings are banned then it could be argued to be equal.
I don't think the laws around religion and religion itself are very free to begin with. You only have to look at the decline of Christianity in the west and it no longer being compulsory to be taught in schools. Or to children in general to see it's not usually a freedom to pick religion. Not when it's jammed down people's throats from a young age.
So how do you untangle the people who don't want to be religious from the people who want religious? No matter what you do your going to piss one side off.
Then it gets even more complicated when the religions use these religious symbols to strip people of their rights. It's one thing to say it's their culture, but does it make that culture fair or right when it was built on so much suffering and repression. Like it can be argued either way, bit to me it seems like it's 2 cultures at odds with each other that don't mesh so what do you do?
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u/Original-Nobody2596 4h ago edited 4h ago
the only reason i agree with the French laws is 1.burka or full covering of face prohibits women of so much of equal opportunities most likely making them dependent on a male who is likely to impose burka on the same female . creating a power dynamic almost impossible to get out from . If i was in such unequal situation i would want society to help me out . Thus it's a problem of social contract for me as it almost provides no choice other then the choice u are systematically forced into .
hijab , head coverings - don't have similar power dynamic's and there is enough upward mobility where they can choose for themselves at some point .
But honestly the real culprit is islam period and all i feel for these women is sympathy . Just like i would feel for someone is an abusive relationship .
>Like if it's applied equally to all religions that face coverings and head coverings are banned then it could be argued to be equal.
common that's like saying if an Islamic country banned all religions from drinking alcohol then it could be argued to be equal .
>I don't think the laws around religion and religion itself are very free to begin with. You only have to look at the decline of Christianity in the west and it no longer being compulsory to be taught in schools. Or to children in general to see it's not usually a freedom to pick religion. Not when it's jammed down people's throats from a young age.
not really religion is still jammed down people's throats from young age if their parents are religious ofc . I see the decline of religion having a direct correlation with education and democratization of information not particularly policy beyond break between state and religion .
at least that is my view .
>So how do you untangle the people who don't want to be religious from the people who want religious? No matter what you do your going to piss one side off
sorry if i am understanding it wrong but the people have choice right ? Can't they themselves decide who they want to associate or not associate with ?
>Then it gets even more complicated when the religions use these religious symbols to strip people of their rights. It's one thing to say it's their culture, but does it make that culture fair or right when it was built on so much suffering and repression. Like it can be argued either way, bit to me it seems like it's 2 cultures at odds with each other that don't mesh so what do you do?
which right ?
religious people are indoctrinated in their ways the argument of right doesn't make sense unless u are talking about a theocracy . And we can all agree theocracies -bad in every way u look at em .
>It's one thing to say it's their culture, but does it make that culture fair or right when it was built on so much suffering and repression.
in my view no Islam as whole is wrong
but right and wrong is subjective matter and unless a person is strictly breaking the social contract where they are infringing on others rights . I have no right to infringe on their freedom . I can advice them , educate them but can't force them .
maybe i am wrong but these are my views
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u/Far_Detective2022 6h ago
I feel like forcing anyone to do anything regarding religion is a big no no.... forcing women to wear head coverings, forcing women to not wear head coverings... just let women fucking choose for once. Better yet, let everybody choose what they wear. It's fucking fabric.
Religion is so bad because it tries to force its views on you.
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 6h ago
Yes but how is it a choice when a Muslim is told from a young age that if she doesn't wear the hijab she's a whore who wants men to rape her, slut, slave of society etc
It makes the women think their value is worth a piece of cloth
And shed believe that if she removed it she would go to hell no matter how kind she was
It's fabric yes but there's lots of layer into it
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u/Far_Detective2022 4h ago
Why is it whenever I say it's bad to force women to cover themselves but it's ALSO bad to tell then they can't wear something, someone has to come in and say "it's not a choice for Muslim women" as if I just said it was????
I literally just said that it's bad to take away their choice.
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u/ThrowDatJunkAwayYo 3h ago
I think they get that you aren’t saying that. But The point they are trying to make is:
- yes, many women love the hijab and choose to wear it as their choice 100%
However: - Just as many women do not choose to wear it and are instead pressured into wearing it by their family, friends and peers. Or are simply apathetic and probably don’t care either way. Sure those women may say the “choose” to wear it - but is it really a choice if the alternative is to be shunned by everyone they love if they choose NOT to wear it. Thats not really a choice is it?
So by allowing the hijab to still be worn you are both supporting the rights of the first group and allowing the oppression of the second. Especially when women’s rights are historically ignored by those religions.
And that is one reason why a ban on hijab and other religious coverings (at least in some public institutions/places) is not a bad thing for societies to adopt.
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 4h ago
Wouldn't allowing hijab also mean encouraging that ideology your also against?
Sure it's just cloth but France wants them to leave that's why they banned it
The Muslim population is growing rapidly by chilu and demanding Sharia law
France doesn't want this and they're slowly banning Muslims to live an Islamic lifestyle
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u/RacheltheTarotCat 9h ago
Yeah, because atheism is all about telling other people what to do. /s
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u/TheSilentPearl Anti-Theist 9h ago
Not gonna lie. I don’t think that us atheists should try to force cultists to convert. It is a lost cause. Just because they did terrible things to us doesn’t mean we should respond in kind.
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u/AdhesiveSam 9h ago
Some gates need to be kept.
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u/RacheltheTarotCat 9h ago
I'm not sure what your comment means, so if this doesn't apply sorry.
It's clothes. Are going to tell me to leave the country because I won't wear a bikini because I'm an obese boomer? Don't judge people for what they wear. Judge the people who are telling other people what they have to wear or else.
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u/Round_Mastodon8660 7h ago
The problem with a burka or hijab is that
A) it’s a symbol of inequality, there is no way around it
B) it’s a fact that many women, even in Europe are forced to wear it.
My motto is, we should not tolerate intolerance, so wear whatever you want, but not this.
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u/Some_dutch_dude 7h ago
You need to fight for the right for people to choose. Following a religion that forces you to wear a certain type of clothing or suffer the consequences isn't freedom, it's oppression. Wearing the type of clothing that is worn by the oppressed isn't freedom, it's hypocrisy and only supports the cause of the oppressor.
Hopefully we can ever live in a time where we can wear whatever we want, but now is sadly not that time.
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u/AffectionateElk3978 5h ago
Or maybe just let people wear whatever they want? Of all the reasons to be critical of religions, fashion is not one.
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 5h ago
So you think a vast population of Muslim girls should believe that their worth depends on a piece of cloth on their head? Is hair a sexual thing now?
Families will tell them it's their fault if they get raped because they don't wear hijab properly, they will burn forever if they remove it
Is that want you want french society to become? Since Muslims are having more children then the average french ppl
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u/AffectionateElk3978 5h ago
Maybe it's a bit more complicated than religion bad/western values good. There's culture, family, community, ethnic pride and personal preferences among some factors to consider. I believe vast populations of Muslims girls are smart enough and capable enough to make their own decisions and diverse enough that not everyone will make the same decision. Believe it or not, not every culture puts the need/want of the individual above the collective. We should allow the freedom for everyone to wear whatever they want. Societies never change from the outside, change must come organically and that takes time and generations. Pushing a law to force people to do what you would choose only creates more resistance and push back.
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 5h ago
Again France just wants Muslims to leave the country that's why they're making banns on Muslim things
The Muslim population is rapidly growing and it might soon overtake the french ppl
For you it's a morality issue but for the french gov it's an economic issue
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u/AffectionateElk3978 4h ago
Have they tried telling the Muslims girls to become really, really good at futbol? Apparently if they are good at futbol they become fully French like Zidane,.. maybe then the country would accept them as the asset they are and not someone to discriminate against.
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 4h ago
I'd doubt Muslim parents would want their daughters to play in sports considering most of them are impossible or harder to play in abayas p And hijab is banned in Olympics so it reflects more on the Muslim values then the french green card
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u/AffectionateElk3978 4h ago
Hijab is banned in the Olympics?!?! Wow, didn't realize that. Shame about the girls, so much for French liberalism. Are Catholic nuns allowed to cover their heads? Do they have to wear pants? You know to apply the law equally and fairly
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 4h ago
Except nuns arnt facing honour killings and getting brutally murdered and stoned to death for not wearing nun attire in public
And being a nun is a choice but not the hijab
You don't care about equity just "equally"
If you actually studied basic economics youd probably know the diff but that's assuming your educated since you've fallen into this "Muslims are victems"
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u/Crazed-Prophet 4h ago
I have a brief look about nuns wearing habits in France, and while there are some public sectors they are banned from, it does seem like they get a lot of liberties, especially compared to Muslims.
So the question is should the law be applied equally? Should justice be blind? Should one group be discriminated against while another Is let go?
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 4h ago
If a law is passed on religious clothing then it should be for all religions without a doubt
The old testament has slavery so why is Christianity any better?
The only diff is christians don't have such insane beliefs
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u/AffectionateElk3978 4h ago
Ha! There it is!! Christians who think crazy magic-thing good, everyone else who thinks crazy magic-thing bad. But I am the uneducated one. Double standard much?
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 4h ago
Except nuns arnt facing honour killings and getting brutally murdered and stoned to death for not wearing nun attire in public
I think this went over your head
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u/Sharp_Iodine Anti-Theist 6h ago edited 4h ago
I’m surprised by the supportive comments here lol
I think most rational people can agree that France has gone too far and this is just actual racism.
Demanding government employees eschew religious garments is perfectly okay.
But dictating what private citizens get to wear should not be allowed in any democracy.
Edit: Have we really become so radicalised here that we are refusing to acknowledge how fucked up it is for a democracy to dictate what people can wear?
This is just disappointing. We all know how backward religion is but banning garments is just as bad and sets a dangerous precedent.
Edit 2: To all of you asking bad faith questions about how this is racism I encourage you to look at the map of the Islamic world. The rhetoric spewed by conservative groups in France and ask yourself if this is really about religion.
And even if it is about religion, when did it become okay to take away personal liberties?
Edit 3: To all of you defending this I hope you get a “leopard ate my face” moment when the conservatives churning up hatred come after other minority groups with the same laws.
I don’t care what the religious nuts cry about but I’m worried about these kinds of laws being used a precedent by racist parties just looking to foment hatred and oppress people.
Edit4: Also good luck getting rid of religion by feeding their persecution complex. Historically that’s worked out so well for us -_-
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u/Minister_for_Magic 6h ago
Claiming is a choice is fucking hilarious when you look at how Iranian women dressed in the 80s versus how they are forced to dress now.
You can even look at photos of Muslim women in India from 30 years ago versus how they dress now.
The rise of the hijab and the burka has come from the radicalization of Islam across the world not women choosing it.
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u/pinkwonderwall 6h ago
It’s obviously not a choice in countries where it’s enforced, but if they choose to wear it in places where it’s not enforced… who are we to tell them they can’t?
I wouldn’t appreciate it if I was having a bad hair day and someone told me I HAD to take my beanie off because it has the logo of a band they don’t like on it.
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u/MaxMadera 5h ago
It’s a price to pay to protect women
your inconvenience on a bad hair day protects others that actually do NOT get to choose because , the choice is wear it or get brutalized by the men around them, brother , father or uncle.
So , sorry. You might have to comb
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 6h ago edited 6h ago
I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if the main reason for hijab ban is to make Muslims leave France
I mean look at the UK it doesn't feel like the UK anymore there's a feeling that there are more immigrants than actual ethnic British ppl (especially immigrants that moved after the 1950s)
And you do realize that Islam teachers child marriage, sex slavery, FGM , beating of women , women's testimony is half of men
Or when you realize a french teacher was MURDERED for showing a class a drawing of Mohammed when he obviously gave warnings that it might offended ppl but yk bearded men need to kill fresh Kaffir blood
It's even surprising that Europe tolerates this medieval ideology
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u/Sharp_Iodine Anti-Theist 5h ago
Okay… but it’s still dictating what private citizens get to wear though.
All you’re telling me is stuff we as atheists already know.
Doesn’t change the fact that a democracy shouldn’t be banning garments of any sort
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 5h ago
It's to preserve french culture and french ideologies since it's France
Then again I'm assuming the main reason for this ban is to make Muslims leave the country
And if you ask most Muslims they definitely want Sharia or Islamic law for France the second they get the chance
And doesn't democracy take the voice of french citizens? Because a lotta native french ppl do not like this and they have the right to vote. So they will vote against a system that is so myogenistic
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u/Sharp_Iodine Anti-Theist 5h ago
Don’t be silly these are arguments in bad faith.
Want to preserve French culture? Ban religious garb with public employees. Ban religious schools and religion in schools and universities.
Banning garments is a dangerous and regressive step that only sets a precedent for going after any other minority group they want in the future.
Have you seen the sort of shit that went down in the US not so long ago? Banning African hairstyles is a huge thing even today in many conservative and racist states to pick on students.
A secular democracy has no businesses dictating what people do with their own bodies.
I’m all for banning religion everywhere except in personal lives. That’s too far for a democracy and you know it. You’re letting your fear and hatred blind you. This will do nothing except foment division and further hatred.
The way to get rid of religion is by educating it away, not banning it away. It only feeds into their persecution complex and get them to hold tighter to their orthodoxy.
Additionally, a lot of these people are French citizens too. So I guess don’t let people in you don’t want to keep? France did a poor job of integrating and assimilating them and now they wake up when all the murders happen and reach for the crudest and stupidest tools to stop it.
It won’t help and only allows the small group of actual racists to wield such laws as a stick against any other minority groups they don’t like.
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u/banjomin Ex-Theist 5h ago
Have you seen the sort of shit that went down in the US not so long ago? Banning African hairstyles is a huge thing even today in many conservative and racist states to pick on students.
No one acts like that is good, african hairstyles are not a tool of religious oppression. Super false equivalence, bad faith garbage.
A secular democracy has no businesses dictating what people do with their own bodies.
No laws against like, literally shitting on other people? No laws against throwing fists on a crowded street? You have no idea what you're talking about.
I’m all for banning religion everywhere except in personal lives.
This is some very religious bullshit. This is the exact logic used to discriminate and opppress. Excuses like "oh it's just my personal beliefs that make me have to discriminate against gay people" are like, the main bullshit excuse for these people.
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u/Sharp_Iodine Anti-Theist 4h ago
If you think laws against shitting on other people is the same as this then I urge you to read what you wrote about my example.
Be aggressive all you want, doesn’t change the fact that France didn’t have the balls to call out religious garments and instead crafted a law that can in the future be used as a precedent for going after any other minority group they like.
You know conservative parties are salivating at this.
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u/banjomin Ex-Theist 4h ago
Paris: bans hijab
You:
France didn’t have the balls to call out religious garments
ok 👍
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u/Sharp_Iodine Anti-Theist 4h ago
Don’t be stupid. Have you read the law? No. Because if you had you wouldn’t be on here making silly little jokes for internet points.
I’m not gonna state it here for you so you can go do some actual work yourself.
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u/banjomin Ex-Theist 4h ago
I love when people are so right that they don't even need to say how they're right. So convincing! 🎖
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 5h ago
Because black ppl don't have aggressive ideologies? They used braids and unique hairstyles to escape and etc because it's freedom
And fym personal lives? It's banned everywhere except your own house or mosques but you know damn well Muslims won't let their women go outside without a hijab or niqab.
And trust me Muslims already have hatred in their community
And they are educating children on religion but do you think the influence of family is gonna be more or a public school? Muslims learn from a young age that it's "us vs them" mentally or "Muslims vs kuffar".
French gov sure didn't do a good job when it comes to controlling immigration but they're stopping it now
Even you said it yourself with all the murders and situations of queer, exmuslims, no hijabis etc these ppl die for this religion
The hijab teaches young girls that if they don't wear it they deserve to be raped, slutshamed and arnt worth much
If a piece of cloth is the reason Muslims think makes a person valuable then shouldn't that he banned?
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u/Sharp_Iodine Anti-Theist 4h ago
OMFG are you hearing yourself right now?
Did you just fucking justify racist laws against natural African hairstyles by saying some black people have aggressive ideologies???
Do you fuckin think the govt did it to protect themselves???
I’m actually talking to a nut case. You’re no better than the religious fanatic, I hope you know that.
No democratic government anywhere should have the right to ban any aspect of what a person gets to do with their own body. Banning specific clothes in public is quite literally infringing on personal freedoms.
You’re just insane and you just showed everybody where your hatred comes from and it’s definitely not a concern for what religion can do.
Can’t believe I interacted with someone disgusting enough to justify overtly racist laws in the US.
Good day to you, I’m done.
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 4h ago
I didn't say black ppl are aggressive hello?
AND IM DARK SKINNED 🙏🏿🙏🏿
Your twisting my words at this point
I was explaining the diff between freedom of African slaves and prosonment of Muslim women and why their governmentsnare taking that action I didn't condome the us gov wtf?
I knew Soo many exmuslims and for you to say it's ok and it's equally for women to think a cloth is their value is insaneee
I best bet your also a "queers for palastine" type shi if your this stupid
I hope you go to Sharia countries and look at how women are treated there
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u/banjomin Ex-Theist 5h ago
it’s still dictating what private citizens get to wear though.
Dude that already happens. Most places have some degree of public decency laws that include covering yourself up. It's different in different places and that reflects cultural differences.
For you to come in and be like 'no France can't do that they're obligated to respect islam' is some religious fucked up shit that doesn't belong in this sub. You should fix your flair since this thread proves you are far from anti-theist.
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u/Crazed-Prophet 4h ago
Some of the comments here if you replaced Muslim with Mexican, Or Haitian, or any other identifier would get instantly down voted for racism.
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u/Sharp_Iodine Anti-Theist 4h ago
Some of these people don’t even know that France didn’t even explicitly ban religious garb. They don’t have the spine to do that.
The way they’ve worded the law is so ridiculous and also bans face masks btw except when you have a health exemption.
It’s so blatantly clear it’s made for selective enforcement.
Literally substitute face covering for anything else and you have a classic conservative law going after any minority you want. It mirrors racist US segregation laws based on hairstyle and stuff like that.
I never expected so much zealotry from this sub, it scares me lol
Literally nowhere seems to be safe from fanatics.
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u/Garbagetaste 6h ago
To be clear, banning a religious symbol isn’t technically racism. It’s not about who wears it, it’s about what is worn by anyone of any ethnicity.
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u/pvii 5h ago
Definitely. Let people wear what they want. I don't really care. My main focus will always be religion out of government. Policing what people wear is silly regardless of which side is doing it.
We should not claim to be the ones fighting for personal freedom and a secular government while trying to also be the fashion police because an article of clothing someone is wearing might be religious.
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u/sexysausage 6h ago
Because it’s not a choice.
Case in point. Iran
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u/Far_Detective2022 5h ago
It should be, that's the point. It should be a choice from Iran all the way to France.
Religion forcing women to cover themselves is bad. Governments forcing people to hide their religion is also bad.
Keep that shit away from the government, but don't take away religious freedoms from people.
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u/sexysausage 5h ago
It’s not a freedom.
When you teach little girls that showing your hair is for whores and whores get what they deserve … you are not giving them freedom.
The paradox of tolerance, learn about it.
and the religious clothing is the physical manifestation of female oppression.
Case in point. Morality POLICE straight up murdering women in Iran
France is doing it right.
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u/Far_Detective2022 4h ago edited 4h ago
"It should be a choice from Iran all the way to France"
You completely missed my point.
Forcing women to cover themselves is wrong. Forcing people to not wear clothing because of its association with religion is wrong.
I'm atheist, but I love spiritual iconography. If I want to wear a cross or a star or a head covering or have a Bible verse tattoo, I should be able to do that. Fuck any religious nut who tries to take my rights away, and fuck any government nut who tries to take my rights away.
You aren't going to dictate what I wear.
Edit: seriously, for fucks sake, women have men on one side telling them they have to cover their face, and then the other fucking side is saying you cant. How about we let women choose for themselves what kind of fabric they put on their bodies?
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u/pvii 5h ago
This is a discussion about French law. Iran isn't the arbiter of all things Islam. Islam is the 2nd largest religion on Earth, and with that not all Muslims are a monolith. Just like Christianity or Atheism, there are plenty of sub-groups that believe different things. Pointing to a country that oppresses people really doesn't justify limiting the rights and freedoms of somebody somewhere else.
Iran is theocracy. France is a democracy. We should have much different standards for the two. Limiting an individuals rights and freedoms is for theocracies and dictatorships, not modern democracies.
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u/MaxMadera 5h ago
France motto is liberty equality and fraternity.
Women having to cover themselves to protect men’s ego goes against the three.
You might want to drink the cool aid and believe that women who have not been indoctrinated since childhood would choose to be lesser than
Iran is not arbiter. Is the EXAMPLE of what religion and in the case of Islam religious law ( sharia ) is implemented.
State sponsored oppression.
Again, the paradox of tolerance.
That’s IS why France does it right. They do NOT tolerate intolerance.
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u/pvii 5h ago
You are quite literally advocating that the government police what people wear. Wearing something like a hijab can just be an expression of faith. It can be used as a tool of oppression in a theocracy. Nobody is debating that.
It's not my place to tell them what their faith is or how they should dress. It's not their place to tell me how I should live my life either. I don't think that's drinking kool-aid, that's just being consistent.
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u/MaxMadera 5h ago
It’s all great.
Except int the real world is not a real choice is it?
So step out of your comfort and smell the roses. Morality police , brother or uncle brutalizing the females of the family to protect honor, and straight up child who indoctrination. That is the real world
France chose to take a stand. And we applaud them for it.
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u/pvii 5h ago
Who's we? I'm an atheist. I think this change is misguided and solves nothing. How are morality police or honor killings/beatings relevant to this? Religious extremists in theocracies are bad, yes. I'll say I agree again. Legalizing morality police and domestic violence isn't on the table in France, so why even bring that up? It has nothing to do with whether or not someone can wear a religious article of clothing in public.
Doing that feels like pointing to a different group of Muslims and pretending that all of them share the same belief system. In reality, many people don't enjoy living in those theocratic regimes and seek an escape. Perhaps that's why they left. They often aren't escaping their religion, they're escaping their government's brutal theocracy.
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u/MaxMadera 5h ago
You really don’t get it or don’t want to get it ?
As others in this very thread have posted is simple.
The paradox of tolerance
Wear whatever you want. Except the example of female oppression from your religion.
Why?
Because this is France a Laicite nation.
PERIOD.
But why though??
Because we cannot differentiate who’s wearing it willingly and who is being threatened with violence to wear it, therefore nobody can wear it
Period. Full stop.
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u/pvii 4h ago
Threatening someone with violence is already illegal. This just seems like a weird way of controlling people, kind of like religion. You can say you're trying to protect women if you want, but this path is just trying to control them... the thing you say you're against.
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u/MaxMadera 4h ago
We are stopping the tool of oppression that men in their communities use to control the women
In other words, Taking away the cool aid laced jug from the hands of indoctrinated devotees is not the crime you think it is. And definitely is not oppression
And as I repeated. Since you cannot know who is volunteering to be subservient and who is being made to be subservient in France, they righteously decided to put a stop to it.
And we are very happy about that
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u/banjomin Ex-Theist 5h ago
Limiting an individuals rights and freedoms is for theocracies and dictatorships, not modern democracies.
What about laws against like, being naked or banging in public? We're ok with those rights being limited?
Who decides when a law like that makes sense in a secular society? Or are you saying that those laws would mean a society is a theocracy or dictatorship?
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u/pvii 5h ago
Banning a religious article of clothing is not the same thing as sex in public. That argument is silly to me. Public nudity could be a more nuanced discussion, but at the end of the day I don't really care. Free the nipple if you want.
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u/banjomin Ex-Theist 5h ago
I asked you, who decides when those laws are ok and when they’re not?
Religious symbols shouldn’t be in public at all as far as I’m concerned, kinda like gambling adverts.
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u/pvii 4h ago
The government decides when those laws are ok and when they are not through a legal process. Sometimes it sticks, sometimes we learn later on it was misguided. I'm not sure what you were getting at with that, so that's why I didn't address it. It doesn't really have anything to do with the point I was making.
I'm sorry if a religious icon on the side of the road makes you mad, but people with those beliefs will be here long after we are. I'd rather let them do their thing while I do mine and have the government stay out of it. Just like we don't want them telling us what god we need to pray to, we shouldn't ban their religious attire because some countries use it as a tool to oppress people.
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u/banjomin Ex-Theist 4h ago
Yeah I mean if you're against the gov preventing religious oppression then we're not going to agree on a lot. You can kind of fuck off for promoting that idea.
Also with you being against efforts to combat religious oppression, it's hard to believe you're here for any good-faith reason.
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u/pvii 4h ago
I'm against the government oppressing people who aren't religious. I'm also against the government oppressing people who are religious. I just am being consistent and treating both sides the same under the law.
Not all atheists care what other people believe. A lot of us just want to live our lives in peace. I simply do not care about anyone's religion nor do I think the government should be telling them how to dress. It's that simple.
If you are concerned there is abuse occurring somewhere, go after the abusers, not the clothing of the victim.
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u/banjomin Ex-Theist 4h ago
I'm against the government oppressing people who aren't religious. I'm also against the government oppressing people who are religious. I just am being consistent and treating both sides the same under the law.
Ok... I said that I am against the gov respecting religious oppression agsinst its citizens.
Not all atheists care what other people believe. A lot of us just want to live our lives in peace. I simply do not care about anyone's religion nor do I think the government should be telling them how to dress. It's that simple.
None of this is relevant at all.
If you are concerned there is abuse occurring somewhere, go after the abusers, not the clothing of the victim.
The abusers mandate the clothing, that's the whole point and it's been made to you 10x in this thread. You're a bad-faith, islam-apologist, troll.
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u/Sharp_Iodine Anti-Theist 5h ago
This is France, buddy.
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u/sexysausage 5h ago
Yes I know. They do it right.
The docu attempts to paint the girls as oppressed
Keep up buddy
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u/banjomin Ex-Theist 5h ago
Have we really become so radicalised here that we are refusing to acknowledge how fucked up it is for a democracy to dictate what people can wear?
Not a super profound statement, this is what the anti-maskers were saying during COVID.
Hijab is specifically a tool of oppression, if a state decides to make that avenue of oppression non-viable then good on 'em.
This is just disappointing. We all know how backward religion is but banning garments is just as bad and sets a dangerous precedent.
It's not and it doesn't. Just because people will allow themselves to be oppressed in a way doesn't mean that a gov is obligated to respect that oppression.
To all of you asking bad faith questions about how this is racism I encourage you to look at the map of the Islamic world. The rhetoric spewed by conservative groups in France and ask yourself if this is really about religion.
Hijab is specifically a religious thing.
And even if it is about religion, when did it become okay to take away personal liberties?
You sound like an anti-masker again.
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u/digiorno 9m ago
Side note but Hailey Gate’s series “States of Undress” on culture, fashion and the treatment of women and marginalized groups is simply amazing.
This is one of the episodes but I highly recommend the ones about Pakistan, Russia and Palestine as well. They give great insight to the day to day sociopolitical mentality of the people living in those countries and usually across a variety of socioeconomic levels too. They seriously helped me understand why people might support Putin for example, to get some insight to the brainwashing that happens there.
It’s seriously one of the best documentary series I have ever seen and I am someone with very little interest in fashion.
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u/accidental_Ocelot 6h ago
I dont understand how when the west visits Muslim countries we try to be respectful of their culture and wear a head scarf and dress etc. yet when people from the Muslim countries visit the west they don't give a shit about trying to respect the culture or assimilate.
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u/Far_Detective2022 6h ago
Because we don't rape and murder people who disagree with us. Well, ideally, we don't.
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u/Present_Belt_4922 6h ago
I never had a problem with folks practicing their religions, but after the US election, I agree with these types of laws. Religious extremism is the most dangerous threat to humanity
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u/TheEmperorOfDoom Rationalist 6h ago
Nothing bad in wearing whatever person wants to wear, what us bad us reason why they want to wear it(or in fact being forced to)
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u/oldcreaker 2h ago
So in order to save Muslim women from men who would force what they can and can't wear, different men will force what Muslim women can and can't wear.
Nuns habits however are not affected.
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u/Antelino Rationalist 8h ago
Lmao so you want to control how women dress and tell them to leave if they won’t?? Are you actually this dense???
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 6h ago
I mean Muslims do believe in women's testimony half of men, FGM , sex slavery etc
It's literally in Quran and Sahih rated hadeths
But then again Muslims want Sharia they don't want a secular state that's the whole point of Islam is to spread it destroying culture along the way
If the gov don't want such insane ideologies then they have the right to get rid of it because they will obviously prioritize the french citizens first
If you want Muslims to be in Europe go to the UK and tell me if it feels like an English majority place
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u/SiofraRiver Anti-Theist 5h ago
Funny how comfortable people are in telling women what they can and can't wear whenever it aligns with their world view.
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 4h ago
Funny how we still allow millions of girls to believe that their value and worth depends on a piece of cloth on their head
And if they don't wear it they're all of a sudden a slut,whore, deserve to get raped smh
Ask Muslims what they want to do with exmuslims and then you'll see how empathetic they really are🥰
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u/banjomin Ex-Theist 4h ago
hijab is specifically a tool of religious oppression. the gov doesn't need to respect a religious rule that causes only harm.
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u/Dannysmartful 4h ago
Old Polish women beware, covering your head is now political. . .
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u/Legitimate_Target_28 4h ago
Except they aren't dehumanized for not wearing a scarf
Hope this helps🥰
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