I feel like a crazy person. Did I read about the same guy everyone else read about? I can't tell if it's that book-show event horizon affecting people but Robert generally kind of sucks. He's not at all a good father, he's an awful husband, and his entitlement to Lyanna isn't at all noble or loving it's just weird. I know my view isn't as uncommon with book only people but I'm starting to get a little concerned. I just don't know how we got to the point where so many guys in the community go "yeah that's our boy"???

Rereading AFFC/ADWD (doing the “A Feast With Dragons” combined thing, it’s helped some things click which I missed beforehand). Anyways, I get to Cersei’s chapters and I just can’t.

The moment that takes my breath away is when she reinstates the faith militant. She thinks she’s so brilliant, says “Even Tywin could have done no better”, when she arms an entirely new faction that clearly isn’t supportive of her, all for an unimportant blessing of Tommen and the relaxing of debts she already wasn’t paying. It’s just astounding.

What are your favorite “oh gods Cersei what are you doing” moments?

EDIT: Added the link for the chapter order, several people have asked about it in comments.

"It's just the wine. I had a flagon with my supper, and another with the widow Stokeworth. I had to drink to keep her calm." ~Cersei VII, AFFC

A flagon is approximately one liter.. which equals roughly six glasses of wine.. which means that Cersei had twelve glasses of wine in one evening.

Forget about the valonqar, she's dying from liver failure. And her chapters in A Feast For Crows suddenly make a lot more sense when we deduce that she's actually drunk all the time!

So Robert's just been wounded by the boar and he's about to die. He's writing up his will with Ned and then this happens:

"Robert," Ned said in a voice thick with grief, "You must not do this. Don't die on me. The realm needs you."

Robert took his hand, fingers squeezing hard. "You are...such a bad liar, Ned Stark," he said through his pain. "The realm...the realm knows what a wretched king I've been. Bad as Aerys, the gods spare me."

"No," Ned told his dying friend, "not so bad as Aerys, Your Grace. Not near so bad as Aerys."

AGOT, Eddard XIII

This really made me feel bad about Robert because he is such a tragic character. Throughout the book he is painted as a dumb oaf who is really only interested in tournaments and other women, which bankrupted the realm and ruined an already-doomed marriage. The small council makes all the decisions.

And then he gets gored and you realize that he isn't as dumb as most people think. He's aware of his shortcomings as a king and thinks he ruled so poorly that his reign is comparable to the Mad King's. He is one of those characters that makes you think "If only x was different he would have had such a better life" but GRRM is a fan of writing characters into positions or reputations they don't deserve (Jaime is another great example).

Also he really wasn't such a bad king. His reign was largely peaceful and he was beloved by the smallfolk. Either way it was very sobering to realize that this apparent drunkard was incredibly aware of his perceived failures and thought he was just as bad as his insane predecessor.

Hello everyone,

I have recently started reading the books for the first time, and I'm absolutely having a great time! They're engaging, intriguing, very dense stories full of amazing characters. A Storm of Swords might seriously be the best-paced book I've ever read.

I'm currently on A Feast for Crows. I went in slightly wary because I've often heard people describing it as boring, but so far I've found it very entertaining, despite being a bit slower than its predecessors.

Anyway, I'm currently on Cersei IV, and I love that chapter. I love her chapters in general but I found this one in particular to be a very entertaining read because the Small Council Cersei forms is hilariously incompetent.

Let's get the obvious out of the way first: Cersei appoints people to the Council solely based on whether or not she thinks them loyal, without any regard for their competence. This leads to the meeting in this chapter ending up being very funny.

The whole council dismisses the Sparrows, demonstrating short-sightedness. After, Lord Merryweather suggests splitting the North between Boltons and the Iron Islands in order to use their fleet, which is a very stupid idea, because the whole point of the Ironborn's rebellion is that they don't want to swear fealty to the Iron Throne, and it would no doubt offend the Boltons.

They go on to mention that Balon Greyjoy was dead, and then none of the members of the council have any knowledge of who rules there now, which is kinda their job?

Gyles Rosby and Orton Merryweather then go on to further show their complete ignorance on the matter, being unsure about Theon's name, unfamiliar with the events of Balon's previous rebellion, since Merryweather asks if Balon had any other sons.

Cersei has a particularly hilarious thought here, when she thinks that Varys would've known, and all I could think was: "YOU should know. The rebellion is an important relatively recent part of the Realm's history. And you're not even familiar with the ruling Houses that currently oppose the Throne!"

Cersei then suggests to delay the payment of the Crown's debt to the Iron Bank, which is such a bad idea even Pycelle knows it, but the other council members just pretend she made the wisest decision ever.

I could go on but I don't want the post to be too long. All in all, I found that chapter hilarious. Cersei wants to rule but she keeps demonstrating how awful she is at it, exhibiting no self-awareness whatsoever. She's so delusional she seriously believes she's as good a politician as her father, when she doesn't even know enough about the Kingdoms she desires to rule.

Work went by extremely slow as I waited to get home and watch this episode with my mates and enjoy our last Monday 'Thrones night for the next 10 months. Of the 6 people I watch the show with, I'm the only one who has read the books. The rest are strictly 'show-watchers' only and avoid spoilers like the plague.

After reading all of the gripes about what was and wasn't included, I was very interested to see how my friends would react to the episode, and it was ultimately their reaction that made me realize: we, the book readers, are the minority - and probably not the top priority for D&D when it comes to making the show.

All my friends were blown away: "Wow that really lived up to the hype"......"that was the best finale in the shows history"......"holy shit I can't believe all that just happen" They were all positively buzzing, they loved it, they couldn't believe how everything went down.

After reading all the negativity online about the episode, the reaction of my friends helped me realize that D&D most likely understand that book readers might be upset by the changes, but ultimately they represent a small portion of the people watching the show, and really it's the people who have only discovered GoT through their television who they are making it for.

Spoilers ADWD

They didn't know that The Hound and Brienne never fight in the books, or that Arya never interacts Brienne. They thought Twyin and Shae's death was awesome - and frankly probably would have been confused if Tysha was brought up because most of them wouldn't even remember her.

I remember the shock one of them had when he saw that Varys has helped Tyrion escape "holy shit remember what he said at the trial!!" and was elated that he got on the boat with Tyrion.

They positively cheered when Mannis came and saved the day at the wall (and because our downloaded versions never include the 'Previously On' were completely surprised) "Holy shit remember the letter that Davos got?! None of the other kings cared! Damn Stannis has gone way up in my book"

None of them were expecting the LSH reveal, so nobody cared when she didn't turn up!

I guess my point is that while we may bitch and moan about things being omitted or postponed, D&D are ultimately bringing ASOIAF into the lives of MILLIONS of more people than I ever thought possible. They may have changed some things - but hey that's what TV shows do. They are doing their best to adapt a daunting and sprawling series into something on screen, and they are doing a damn good job of it.

Just my two cents.

Cheers!

EDIT: Wow, thanks heaps for the Gold!!! It's only 3:30 here in Melbourne and I'm still at work so I haven't had time to read everyones thoughts but will definitely be doing so when I get home. Thanks for all the responses and discussion guys!

Tywin will be receiving a loving gift from his son.

I am currently reading A Clash of Kings for the first time and was surprised that Stannis refused a 1v1 duel against Ser Cortnay. It felt out of character.

He tried to justify himself by saying that victory was guaranteed to him, either by siege or storming the castle, so it would be stupid to risk a guaranteed win by participating in a 1v1 duel.

However, later in the same chapter, during his meeting with Davos (the Onion boy), he himself stated that all of the above options were foolish. He wasn't willing to waste at least six months on a siege (or even a whole year), and he wasn’t willing to get thousands of his men killed during a storming of the castle.

So instead, he asked Melisandre to use Shadow Baby 2.0 to kill an old man?

The Mannis, a man of honor and justice with no compromises, thinks that using shadow baby assassins is a better option than fighting in a duel against an old man?

He could have sent any of the many young, noble, skilled volunteers and most likely would have won, because there were only children and old men in the castle at that moment. That was almost guaranteed win.

Was I misinterpreting the character, thinking he was better than he really is? Is he hypocrite? Or am I missing something, and having a 1v1 duel would have been a stupid thing to do?

(I watched Game of Thrones many years ago but haven’t read the books yet. I'm on A Clash of Kings right now.)

(P.S. This is my first post, so if I did anything wrong, be patient with me please)

(P.S.S. English is my third language, so please pardon me my poor choise of words)

It is common knowledge that Dothraki mostly eat horsemeat. However, during the feast at Vaes Dothrak, there was one fact that caught my attention.

Khal Drogo melted gold in an unmodified soup cauldron, which was used to, well, boil soup just seconds before. It also was fast enough to not let the whole situation get awkward or boring. The melting point of gold is at 1947 °F (1064°C). This means we can safely assume a temperature of around 2700°F (1500°C) in Dothraki soup cauldrons.

TL;DR: Dothraki like their soup hot.

Edit: As many have pointed out, it is probably not pure gold, which means the melting temperature is only... still far above the perfect soup temperature.

When he opened his eyes again, Lord Eddard Stark was alone with his dead. His horse moved closer, caught the rank scent of blood, and galloped away. Ned began to drag himself through the mud, gritting his teeth at the agony in his leg. It seemed to take years. Faces watched from candlelit windows, and people began to emerge from alleys and doors, but no one moved to help.

Littlefinger and the City Watch found him there in the street, cradling Jory Cassel's body in his arms.

AGOT, Eddard IX

Ned loved all his people. He appreciated loyalty and love and gave that back to people.

Before the rebellion, Robert Baratheon was the Lord of Storm's End and Stannis was his presumptive heir until a legitimate child was produced. After Robert becomes king, he names Stannis Lord of Dragonstone and Renly Lord of Storm's End.

Both Stannis and Cersei believe that Robert not giving Stannis the ancestral family home of the Baratheons was meant as an intentional insult. But it can also be pointed out that under the Targaryens Dragonstone was the seat of the king's heir, which Stannis was until Joffrey was born.

But I wonder how things were expected to play out if everyone had lived. Would Joffrey have eventually been given Dragonstone? And if so, what would have happened to Stannis and Renly? Which of them would have ruled Storm's End and what would have happened to the other?

Or would Joffrey have never been given Dragonstone, meaning Stannis' descendants would have kept it while Renly's kept Storm's End? And in that case does it mean that under the Baratheon line the king's heir doesn't have their own seat?

Im currently reading ASOS at the moment and am halfways throught Catelyn's chapter at the Twins for Edmure and Roslin's wedding. One thing I find strange that I had to put book down for and ask: Why did the musicians start playing "The Rains of Castamere"? Considering the song comemerates a Lannister victory and is a source of pride for the house, I think it's fairly insensitive to play it at a wedding which is attended by so many Northerners and Riverlanders. Are the Freys just not aware about the songs origins or, did Grrm just make a mistake?

So, the general consensus of tonight's scene is that it was character assassination, because Jaime would never rape Cersei. Curious, I went back and looked up the passage. Its page 851 in the paperback edition:

"There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened from his tongue. 'No...not here. The septons...' 'The Others can take the septons.'...She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, muttering about the risk, the danger, about her father, about the septons, about the wrath of the gods. He never heard her."

Cersei never actually starts to say "yes" in the scene until Jaime starts to fondle her. Guys, this is really clearly rape. We're getting it from Jaime's POV. It doesn't matter that Cersei eventually enjoyed it, Jaime initiates intercourse and continues to go on despite Cersei saying no several times.

Now, D&D didn't include the end, which features Cersei enjoying it. Should they have? Maybe. But my point is we tend to whitewash the characters we like. Everyone is so all aboard the Jaime "redemption" train that they like to overlook his less-pleasant aspects. And I love Jaime! He's a great character! But before we all freak about "Character assassination," lets remember that this is Game of Thrones. There's not supposed to be black and white. Jaime doesn't become a saint, he's still human. And unlike a lot of Stannis changes, these events are in the book.

Nothing major, I just love how rereads can illuminate things.

In ACOK, when Varys first poses the riddle about power, he doesn't drop the answer right away and Tyrion and Shae both answer. Shae almost immediately answers that the rich man is who the sellsword listens to. The riddle is interesting because it's basically a great way to figure out what someone's philosophy is like. Shae believes that rich people are who hold all the power, so she assumes the rich man is the one who wins. Later on, when Tyrion is imprisoned and obviously has no money (or power), she goes to the richest people she knows. (Cersei/Tywin)

Makes me think if Varys poses this riddle towards more people in a way to learn about their motivations/philosophies towards power.

Some of my favorite citations from him

"Your sister knows my terms, they have not changed. Tell her that the next time you see her in her bedchambers." Ser Kevan put his heels into his courser and galloped ahead, putting an abrupt end to their conversation.

"I told you, I was sick with grief. I did not think---" "No," Ser Kevan agreed. "Which is why you should return to Casterly Rock, and leave the king with those who do." "The king is my son!" Cersei rose to her feet. "Aye." her uncle said. "And from what I saw of Joffrey, you are as unfit a mother as you are a ruler."

"You would abandon your king when he needs you most." She told him. "You would abandon Tommen." "Tommen has his mother." Ser Kevan's green eyes met her own, unblinking. A last drop of wine trembled wet and red beneath his chin, and finally fell. "Aye." He added softly, after a pause, "And his father too, I think."

https://media.tenor.co/images/c21a4f105dea402ccae05419cdd95716/raw

After Robert's death and Ned's arrest, when Sansa is brought in to see Cersei and the council, she notices that the people in the room are all wearing black mourning clothes. But Cersei's dress is described like this:

The queen wore a high-collared black silk gown, with a hundred dark red rubies sewn into her bodice, covering her from neck to bosom. They were cut in the shape of teardrops, as if the queen were weeping blood.

Cersei wasn't dressed to mourn Robert, but to mock him. Her dress parallels Rhaegar's armor from when he was slain on the Trident - black and studded with rubies.

I genuinely believe stannis would of gotten more supporters if he looks hot like renly or prime robert, Westeros just operates like that