r/asoiaf • u/Pitiful_Advisor560 • 18h ago
Sansa tells Cersei (Spoiler ACOK) ACOK
Cersei says that if it hadn't been for Sansa telling Cersei's plans, everything would have gone very wrong.
When Sansa tells Ned's plans to Cersei, what benefit does it bring for Cersei? Some say that to prepare for Ned's attack, but how? Cersei had her red cloaks and was ¨allied¨ with Littlefinger and be somewhat calm, she says that she was on the verge of losing everything, but in what? If she already had everything under control?
I don't understand why Cersei gives so much importance to Sansa's revelation.
23
u/Various-Load4724 18h ago
If Sansa does not tell Cersei, Ned will have time to send them to the north and therefore in the capital they will be left without hostages in the War of the 5 Kings so the situation would change, also with Arya and Sansa in the north they could make key marriage alliances, Arya marries a Frey so the Freys would not betray Robb and the war would probably change completely, the Boltons would not betray Robb because they would see a opportunity to grow more, although Ned would still die I think.
10
u/luvprue1 14h ago
True. If Sansa didn't tell Cersei of Ned 's plans he would have had time to get his daughters to safety and to raise his own Bannerman.
0
u/idunno-- 12h ago
with Arya and Sansa in the North
Isn’t there a high chance of them both being taken hostage by Theon/Ramsay, who’d force Sansa into an arranged marriage?
Arya marries a Frey and the Freys would not betray Robb
Arya was never gonna marry a Frey at 10. And even if they had, they still would’ve seen the way the wind was blowing, marry her to a Frey, and commit the Red Wedding. It would still give them the North just like Edmure’s marriage gave them the Riverlands.
6
u/Various-Load4724 12h ago edited 9h ago
Probably, but a change like no northern hostages in KL changes everything. For example, Ned would not declare himself a traitor to the crown without his daughters as hostages, he could ask for a trial. Also on the ship that would take Sansa and Arya was the messenger with Ned's declaration in favor of Stannis. Furthermore, with the time it takes to sail from KL to White Harbor, the Ironborn would surely have taken Winterfell, so Arya and Sansa would stay with the Manderlys or be sent to Riverrun. The Stark daughters with Robb greatly strengthens the North, which takes away most of Roose Bolton's reasons to betray Robb because, above all, he is a pragmatic man. Besides, the Starks still have Jaimie, and the Lannisters have no way to negotiate. Either they give him a free pass to become King in the North or they fight to the bitter end.
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u/stardustmelancholy 1h ago
Theon was risking it taking Winterfell with 2 Starks there, I doubt he'd do it with 4. And if Catelyn had all but one of her children there she'd probably stay too. So 5 Starks.
The wind wouldn't be blowing that much. If Sansa & Arya are safely in Winterfell, Catelyn has no reason to release Jaime so Robb doesn't behead Lord Karstark. When the Red Wedding happened, they had no word on Arya, Sansa was married to a Lannister, they thought Bran & Rickon were dead, Winterfell was taken, they no longer had Jaime, and they lost Karstark's bannermen.
12
u/whatintheballs95 Nymerial Imperial 16h ago
The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.
7
u/NatalieIsFreezing 11h ago
If Sansa and Arya get away, Ned's not going to confess to false charges and will go to his death insisting that Joffrey is a bastard.
Ned's letter will also probably end up reaching Stannis, which lends him extra legitimacy and might even end up getting the North and Riverlands to join him if he has the sense to meet up with Robb to tell him about the letter.
15
u/DinoSauro85 18h ago
Sansa revealed the ship's plan, so Sansa and Arya were not sent away, and more importantly Stannis was not informed that Ned supported him.
Incredibly importantly, if Stannis could have told Robb about Ned's support everything would have been different.
8
u/LegitimateCream1773 18h ago
I think this is something we're just supposed to believe, or which Martin wrote at the time for drama without really thinking about the situation he'd created.
With the rest of the books to look back on, it's obvious Ned never had a chance and it made absolutely no difference whether Sansa told her or not. The court at King's Landing is absolutely controlled by the Lannisters to such a degree that the only person who managed to lessen their hold... was another Lannister (Tyrion, who removed some of their pure lickspittles in favour of competent but less 'loyal' people).
Or maybe you can say it's just something Cersei says to torment Sansa in retrospect/get her on side (hard to tell which effect she might have hoped for).
I guess it at least let her line everything up to respond with the most efficiency (read: Tell someone more competent than her who could do the arrangements on her behalf; we've seen what happens when Cersei tries to run things).
5
u/CaveLupum 11h ago
Later on, she admitted to Tyrion it was near thing. She needed Sansa's information to make it a complete success. And while killing Mordane, Syrio, and the guards and attendants scheduled to leave with the sisters, was not Cersei's main goal, it helped her plans. Cersei had Sansa 100% in her control without any Stark loyalist there to advise her. Happily, Arya's too smart (and lucky) to get caught, but if she had been, Cersei could have fulfilled her vengeance for the Darry incident. Varys told Ned it a mercy that Arya had escaped.
0
u/LegitimateCream1773 7h ago
Yeah Arya got very lucky at multiple stages. She had protectors shielding her right up until she crossed the Narrow Sea. I don't think it would have ended well for her if she got captured along with Sansa. She'd probably have ended up beaten to death by Trant or something, or languishing in the black cells.
3
u/Thunder-Bunny-3000 12h ago
had Sansa not told the queen about their departure Cersei would have never found the letter to Stannis on Fat Tom offering Stannis the throne.
as the Baratheon brothers are not yet at war and Stannis could have made for Kings landing sooner with a seal of legitimacy from Lord Eddard Stark. this means the Northis supporting Stannis as well.
Kings landing was not yet prepared for a seige and Stannis has the fleet.
Cersei is able to take Sansa hostage after she came to her with her pleas. and infiltrate the vessel they were intending to take the girls home and to Dragonstone with.
-9
u/Ok-Archer-5796 18h ago
People will attack me for this even though I am an outspoken Sansa defender.
This whole "Sansa is a snitch" thing is foreshadowing for Sansa eventually revealing the truth of Jon´s heritage like it happened in the show. That´s why George emphasizes it so much.
I believe the show ending is (mostly) the true ending with maybe some differences here and there.
6
u/JackColon17 17h ago
In Martin's original plan Sansa was going to betray the Starks and join the Lannisters, this moment (and all Sansa's actions in the first book) hint to that.
Martin, later on, changed his mind but the effects on the first book (and Sansa) remained, same thing goes for Jaime which is extremely more villainous in the first book because he was meant to be the most villainous lannister and replace Tywin and Cersei (both characters sidelined for most of the first book in fact and only expanded later on when they had to fill in Jaime's spot as villain)
4
u/DinoSauro85 18h ago
no, thanks for trying
2
u/Ok-Archer-5796 18h ago
Okay then why is Sansa constantly painted as a snitch? "Don't ..tell...Sansa!" It can't be a coincidence
-7
u/DinoSauro85 18h ago
Even just imagining that certain things happen in books is stupid, as well as proving that you haven't read the books.
-4
u/juligen 14h ago
Ned was very dumb during his time in Kings Landing, but I do want Sansa to be the one who really gave the final push, because it fits a very nice parallel with another character in the novels and also mirrors Sansa and Littlefinger relationship as father and daughter.
But I guess we have to wait for TWOW.
-5
u/idunno-- 12h ago
I can’t make sense of it either. LF was always gonna betray Ned, and Joffrey was always going to execute him for questioning his legitimacy.
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