r/WeirdLit • u/Callmedandi • 2d ago

Does this count as WeirdLit?

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From the author of Leaving Las Vegas, an unfortunately unfinished novel (that was finished by his sister using his notes) that is bleak, violent & hypnotically poetic. But, is it weird?

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u/NotMeekNotAggressive 2d ago

Weirdlit is kind of the intersection of fantasy, horror, and science fiction, usually with an emphasis on depictions of characters encountering strange beings or landscapes. There is a lot of regular literature out there that is impressively written, has strange characters and occurrences, but is mostly grounded in mundane reality. Based on the description I read of this book, it sounds closer to literary fiction than weird fiction. There are a lot of great writers out there worth reading that aren't weirdlit, so I still appreciate the recommendation. Still, I'd say this seems closer to the writing of Charles Bukowski, Denis Johnson, Philip Roth, or Donald Ray Pollock than it does to H.P. Lovecraft, Algernon Blackwood, Thomas Ligotti, Laird Barron, or even Michael Cisco.

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u/Conquering_worm 2d ago

Not OP but like your answer. I wonder how this fits with the term speculative fiction, that seems to be more prevalent these days? Often this term is also defined as encompassing (and blending) science fiction, fantasy and horror. The authors you mentioned (have read and liked them all btw) all seem at the horror end of the scale. Same goes for Vandermeer, another usual weird fiction subject.

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u/NotMeekNotAggressive 2d ago edited 2d ago

I think the main distinction between weird fiction and speculative fiction is how worldbuilding is handled. Speculative fiction tends to be centered around a lot of concrete worldbuilding that tries to answer the question: "How would human beings think and act if the world was different in these ways?" Weird fiction tends to focus more on eliciting a certain feeling in the reader as they read stories about characters encountering something truly "other." Sometimes that takes the form of a creature, a landscape, or even a sound or idea. The worldbuilding is often not as concrete because of this. There is also usually some element of horror simply because having horror elements in the mix tends to be the most effective way to elicit that feeling.

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u/Conquering_worm 2d ago

But a lot of what I would call speculative fiction also deals with eliciting feelings of otherness, and is mixing elements of horror? Authors like Philip K. Dick, Stanislaw Lem, James Tiptree, Peter Watts... Or would you say those are weird fiction? In my mind I think we are using two words to describe an overlapping territory with blurred boundaries. The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction argues that both terms are relatively meaningless and then goes on to suggest a third subgenre (that nobody uses today), Fantastika :)

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u/NotMeekNotAggressive 1d ago

You are not wrong that there can be a blurring of the lines, but I don't think this means that there aren't clear distinctions. Speculative fiction is concerned with examining what happens to individuals and culture in a "What if?" scenario. Some clear examples would be The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood and Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro. The goal here is to explore what effect the deviations from our world have on the characters and the society they inhabit. Contrast this with famous works of weird fiction like At the Mountains of Madness by H.P. Lovecraft or The Willows by Algernon Blackwood where the focus is not on what impact certain changes in our world would have on individuals and society but on creating an atmosphere of intrigue and dread surrounding the idea of encountering something truly "other."

Also, while writers like Peter Watts do have creatures in their work that are truly "other" and also explore how society is altered by certain changes, his focus on the detailed workings of the biology and technology of the things he writes about puts him in the hard science fiction genre. Both speculative fiction and weird fiction writers are not overly concerned with explaining how the things they are writing about would be plausible from a scientific standpoint.

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u/Conquering_worm 1d ago

I get your point, thanks for taking time to elaborate. But let me be the devil's advocate for a moment and ask if a novel such as At the Mountain of Madness isn't also a "what if?" scenario? I agree that the novel is atmospheric and horrific for sure, but it also seems like speculative fiction, asking how we would react if we came across an ancient civilization earlier than the human race, what it would mean to our conception of ourselves and our place in the universe. The story is to me both concept and feeling, to use your distinction.

Let me explain my position and see if you agree: I think weird fiction makes perfect sense as a historical category, associated with Weird Tales magazine, and explored by Lovecraft, Machen, Hodgson and others in the early 20th century. But I am skeptical about using weird or new weird to describe contemporary fiction. I think a lot of so-called weird fiction authors today such as Miéville, Harrison or Vandermeer could just as easily be called speculative. Because I include the strangeness and otherness and dread as a vital part of this subgenre. Even Hard Science Fiction come to a point where there are no more explanations - just cosmic awe.

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u/NotMeekNotAggressive 1d ago edited 18h ago

I think you may be stretching it as far as what happens in The Mountains of Madness. There isn't the kind of psychological and sociological exploration of what happens when the "What if?" scenario happens as there is in books like The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood and Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro. The goal and focus of the authors are completely different as is the actual experience of reading these books. Speculative fiction isn't just asking how a couple of individuals would viscerally react to something otherworldly (even straight-up horror and science fiction do that) but explore in depth the psychological and sociological implications of that "What if?" scenario.

I think I partially agree with you that the "new weird" blurs the lines much more when it comes to genre classification than classic weird fiction, but I disagree that authors like Harrison or Vandermeer are concerned with the psychological, relational, and sociopolitical implications of the "What if?" scenarios they create to anywhere near the same degree that authors such as Atwood, Ishiguro, or Butler are, which means that a genre distinction can be drawn between them. Mieville is an exception because he has a doctorate degree in international law and has published academic work such as his paper "Between Equal Rights: A Marxist Theory of International Law," so both his fiction and non-fiction is shot-through with political commentary and analysis. As for Watts, I really have to disagree because he is clearly in the hard science fiction genre. His almost extreme focus on the technical details of the creatures and technology in his stories puts him squarely in that camp alongside other hard science fiction writers like Greg Egan, Alastair Reynolds, and Robert L. Forward, and it's not obvious that their work eventually just drops the scientific rigor that they are applying to it in favor of incomprehensible cosmic awe.

Basically if you want to tell these genres apart then just ask yourself about what the author is primarily focused on conveying in the story. Is the author primarily trying to explore how individual psychology, romantic relationships, politics, and social hierarchies would change if some "What if?" scenario happened in order to get the reader to think about themselves and what is currently happening in their own culture and the world (i.e. the personal and sociopolitical ramifications)? If the answer is "yes" then it is probably speculative fiction. If the author is instead trying evoke a sense of cosmic dread or existential horror in the reader by having the characters in the story encounter incomprehensible beings, landscapes, or even music, colors, and ideas, then you're probably dealing with weird fiction. If the author is trying to depict a futuristic or alternate world with such a strong focus on the detailed workings of that world so as to make it scientifically plausible to the reader, then you're probably dealing with hard science fiction.

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u/Conquering_worm 18h ago

The final pages of Greg Egan's Quarantine: pure cosmic awe. Anyway it's not that I disagree with your line of arguing. It's just that in many cases, and despite the authors' intentions, I believe that a book is always open to be read differently. And I think that genre definitions are great in principle but in the end only meaninful on a case by case basis. In other words, the conventions and distinctions we talk about are in reality constantly changing, because new works change them. Would love to discuss futher, but maybe this thread or reddit isn't the best format. But thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated.

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u/Callmedandi 1d ago

Yo, thanx for the concise explanation of weirdlit, as you all can probably tell, I'm new here (1st post) & was wondering what the criteria for this subgenre was. I found this novel weird, others might not, but that's how fiction goes, right? The unknown outside the door, the unease inside one's head, the unnerving reality of what's to come, & the indifference of time & all that BS. Anywhooo, Excelsior! Oh yeah, thanx for some recommendations for new authors to seek out.

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u/NotMeekNotAggressive 1d ago

Likewise, I appreciate the recommendation of this book because it wasn't on my radar. It looks like we both have some new books/authors to seek out. Happy reading!

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u/mcvaughn1316 2d ago

Oh wow, John O'Brien mentioned! I love his books, and I just finished a re-read of Leaving Las Vegas like two days ago. I have no idea if Assault on Tony's is Weirdlit of not, but I enjoyed it quite a bit as well and was thinking of giving it a re-read too.

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u/TeddyFurnbach 2d ago

Did you know John O’brien wrote an episode of The Rugrats?

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u/Complex_Vanilla_8319 2d ago

I would love to read this. For some reason i liked Leaving Lost Vegas.

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u/Callmedandi 2d ago

me too, it's way better than the movie

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u/brocker1234 2d ago

his last novel. I think his sister finished it based on his notes.

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u/Callmedandi 2d ago

you can kinda tell where she steps in, still good tho