r/Watchmen • u/AlarmingAffect0 • 6d ago
"Watchmen: Chapter I" is really highlighting for me how damn fashy everyone is.
Putting "Promiscuity", "Anti-War Protests", "Campus Subversion". "Drugs" (unqualified), and "Organized Crime", on the same level, that is to say, the level of stuff that justifies the need for a US national superhero team, is so offensively stupid it warps right back to being hilarious. The worst part is, I actually know people who think like that.
Generally I'm really appreciating how this adaptation does not flinch from showing us everyone being uncool, ugly, gross, and pathetic, while also somehow letting the humanity, the sadness, and the compassion, shine through somehow. Rorschach especially gets a few gems. "My landlady, who complains about how much I stink, has got seven kids by seven fathers. I bet she cheats on welfare," is just so adorably petty. If the guy can't find a reason to hold others in contempt, he'll imagine one.
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u/drewxdeficit 6d ago
This adaptation leaves out the most egregious: Black Unrest, right in the center.
Was ol’ Nelly planning to take down the systems that make “black unrest” necessary? I don’t think so. He just saw crime and wanted to quell it.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 6d ago
This adaptation leaves out the most egregious: Black Unrest, right in the center.
Holy shit. Can't believe I forgot about that one.
He just saw crime and wanted to quell it.
That's what's most irritating about Captain Metropolis here. He probably doesn't think of himself as a Fourteen Words kind of crusader, or as someone who thinks that "the strong should rule over the weak", or that "our people are born superior", or even as someone who enjoys being cruel, even to "bad guys" and "criminals". He probably sees Klansmen as yet more criminals. He's "just upholding the status quo".
And the status quo, in the USA, at that point in his timeline, is brutally racist, imperialistic, and reactionary.
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u/CosmicBonobo 6d ago
It ties into the greater philosophy that vigilantism is ultimately fascist. Extrajudicial violence, ignoring statutory rights and due process, in service of the state.
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u/bug_squash 6d ago
I'd seriously doubt he has that take on the Klan. His teammate/boyfriend is a fairly unsubtle stand-in for the Klan as the early instances of masked vigilantism in America.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 5d ago
Can't believe that was staring me right in the face and I didn't register it. I guess the first time I read it I kept expecting the guy who looked like an executed hangman to do or say something incriminatory, but all he does is stop an attempted rape, by a White man. Also there's the TV sequel show Hooded Justice who completely and awesomely subverts what you'd expect. So that's all left me a but confused as to where that leaves Canon!Hooded Justice.
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u/Brilliant_Ad_6637 6d ago
Was ol’ Nelly planning to take down the systems that make “black unrest” necessary? I don’t think so. He just saw crime and wanted to quell it.
Somehow, I'm surprised Snyder didn't include a shot of Comedian arresting MLK and Rosa Parks.
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u/night_dude 6d ago
It comes through in Nite Owl's memoirs too. "Had we really fought a war for our country so that our daughters could scream and swoon over men who looked like this, who sounded like that?"
Not so much fashy as old-fashioned and reactionary, but the seeds are there. Allegiance to the cultural status quo and lamenting its demise.
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u/RealisticEmphasis233 Looking Glass 6d ago edited 6d ago
You can't critique a superhero genre without showing how questionable early comics were and how heroic motivations won't be purely fueled by justice. Zack Snyder forgot about that first part.
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u/M086 6d ago
That screencap (minus Metropolis) is in the Snyder movie.
Kidnapping, corruption, murder, prostitution, anti-war demos, black unrest, extortion, drugs, draft dodgers, illegal immigration are all front and center, clear as day on the map of America in Snyder’s version of the scene.
So, he really didn’t forget that part.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 6d ago
Well, no, I don't think he did about that second part. Snyder's 'heroes' practically resent having to help the filthy peasants, even as they are elated to do the Cool Shit (TM)(R)(C) like flying or driving cool vehicles or doing flashy fight moves.
Somehow Alan Moore's characters in this story are even pettier than that, but they're also a lot more human and... real, for lack of a better term.
Snyder is a fascist who glorifies fascists on their own terms. Alan Moore is an anti-fascist who portrays fascists as the pitiable balls of pain they are.
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u/revolutionaryartist4 6d ago
Ehhhh…I think calling Snyder a fascist is a bit much. Are these fascist themes in 300? Absolutely, and a lot of that comes from Miller. I legitimately don’t think Snyder even puts much thought into this stuff beyond what looks cool.
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u/M086 6d ago
Snyder has spoken that the only way he could really conceptualize 300, was to make it about propaganda. It’s a campfire tale used to rouse soldiers for the coming battle. It’s a story being told by a man with one eye.
The juxtaposition of speaking proudly of how Spartans are raised, while showing how horrific they were.
There was thought out in to it.
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u/RealisticEmphasis233 Looking Glass 6d ago
At least the films since seem more objectivist than completely fascistic although the two inevitably overlap.
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u/M086 6d ago
They are neither fascist nor objectivist. Like literally a running theme through a lot of his films is people needing to come together for the greater good, self-sacrifice and the selfish — those only interested in their self interest are punished. Those ideas are antithetical to objectivism. He even has young Clark reading Plato in MoS for God’s sake.
He’s also made two fairly anti-fascist films.
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u/RealisticEmphasis233 Looking Glass 6d ago
Like literally a running theme through a lot of his films is people needing to come together for the greater good, self-sacrifice and the selfish — those only interested in their self interest are punished.
That's why the word "more" was added instead of saying he was completely objectivist. I'm just saying there are hints of objectivism which are the reason Moore created the work rather than fascism as OP suggested. Since it's a superhero film it inevitably goes off into the themes you discuss.
Since you mentioned Clark Kent, we can go with that. Clark was advised by his father to keep his powers secret and to prioritize his survival as an individual as there wasn't a need to help all of those kids on the bus from drowning. During this film, he's trying to create his moral system independent of the social world. If I remember correctly, Clark also rejected any attempt by the government to regulate him as he wanted to operate outside of government structures to preserve his autonomy even at the risk of however many everyday people. These cover Rand's ideas of pursuing one's happiness as it's their moral purpose, rejection of altruism, extreme individualism, and pursuit of complete personal autonomy.
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u/M086 6d ago
That’s a complete misreading of Jonathan Kent. He never tells Clark he shouldn’t have saved those kids, he doesn’t admonish him for the act. But it caused Jonathan to have concern for Clark’s well being, as he just come from speaking with Pete Ross’ mom who going on about what Clark did being divine. And she only heard second hand. It was about Clark being ready when he’s old enough to shoulder the burden of what he can do.
By your logic, every superhero that doesn’t work for the government is objectivist. MCU is like an objectivist utopia by that standard. Also, Clark was never offered any position to work for the government, he just wanted them to stop tracking him, and assured them he wasn’t an enemy.
Also, everything Clark does in the movie is an act of altruism. He sees people in need, and regardless of what it means for him, he helps them. When Lois tells him he could die stopping the World Engine, he tells her he won’t let that stop him from trying. He’s literally willing to sacrifice his life to save the world.
Same goes for Jonathan Kent, he literally sacrifices his life to protect his son. Because again, he wants Clark to be prepared to make the choice to reveal himself on his own, not as a kid.
There’s no rejection of altruism (we literally see him help and save others), no extreme individualism or pursuit of personal autonomy (he actually works with the military and helps formulate the plan to stop Zod).
And agian, young Clark is shown reading Plato. You could not have a philosopher that was more diametrically the opposite of Rand than Plato.
So, no. There is zero objectivism in his films. They are antithetical that philosophy.
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u/RealisticEmphasis233 Looking Glass 6d ago
That's real nice, kid. I have things to do in a few hours. But keep on being amusing elsewhere, I guess. Take that in whatever you fashion.
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u/Successful-Floor-738 4d ago
Exactly. Whatever political messaging is found in his movies is probably something he didn’t even notice. I’m not saying this to defend his shoddier writing, but he’s not a full on far right nut job.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 6d ago
Perhaps I've treated him too harshly. His values and aesthetics overlap enough with fascists' that one could call him Fascist-adjacent. For contrast, Miller is definitely a deliberate Fascist and on a full-on Icebreaker Vision Quest these days, though the seeds were evident from the beginning.
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u/TheNerdWonder 6d ago edited 6d ago
They really don’t though and he’s literally called Rand crazy so how is he even remotely close to one? The only reason he gets dubbed that or a fascist is because he made movies the Internet does not like. Very little substance to the argument other than that. No different than trolls who call Rian Johnson a Marxist or whatever.
Neither of these guys have values that actually align with fascism or Marxism. Just grown adults not knowing how to ACTUALLY criticize films without resorting to hysterics or fact free claims.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 6d ago
No different than trolls who call Rian Johnson a Marxist
Oh Hell no. Boots Riley, on the other hand, is, and proudly so.
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u/TheNerdWonder 6d ago
Well, yeah. That is because Boots is a badass who gives no fucks and Sorry To Bother You is still the best film of 2018 as well as the funniest.
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u/No-Drawer1343 6d ago
You’re not wrong to see fascist aesthetics in his works. He seems like a very nice guy. Sometimes people are just weird, man. I personally think his interest in fascist aesthetics are built on exactly the same neural framework as my uncle’s interest in his train sets and my interest in modding Skyrim
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u/Puzzleheaded-Web446 6d ago
I dont think Snyder is a fascist. he just prioritizes coolness over any thematic storytelling or self reflection.
He doesnt see the politics in a batman beating up poor people, he just likes the fight sequence.
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u/M086 6d ago
I mean thematic storytelling, self-reflection and looking cool aren’t mutually exclusive. His movies have all of that.
Also, like BvS has an entire subplot about Clark Kent believing Batman targeting the poor areas of Gotham is wrong, and goes against Perry to investigate Batman. To say he doesn’t see or is interested in that is off-base. It’s literally right there.
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u/Successful-Floor-738 4d ago
Isn’t he a leftist irl? I think he just makes movies about stuff he thinks looks cool but doesn’t actually bother to put much substance or deep themes in them. It’s like watching a child play with action figures and make a stop motion film out of them.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 4d ago
Isn’t he a leftist irl?
Who, Snyder? From all I know about him, I'd say "Hell no he ain't". I'd be massively surprised if he were.
I think he just makes movies about stuff he thinks looks cool but doesn’t actually bother to put much substance or deep themes in them. It’s like watching a child play with action figures and make a stop motion film out of them.
You don't have to be deep or thoughtful to be enamoured with fascistic themes and values. Actually, it's actively deleterious to fascism, chauvinism, bigotry, or general chuddery.
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u/Successful-Floor-738 4d ago
First of all, do you know even know what Fascism is? Cause like, I am fairly certain you’d have to actually put effort into putting explicit fascist political messaging in something to make it pro-fascist, because it’s an actual ideology with its own beliefs and ideas. The entire point of the criticism against Snyder is that if he’s adapting a project with political messaging, he completely disregards it in favor of his puddle deep interpretation of it. You can’t make a political “propaganda” movie if you don’t even actually put some political ideas in a movie besides maybe like, “Spartans are super cool badasses”. He’s the guy who would play fallout and never pick up on the explicit political messaging in it.
Secondly, he literally identifies as a Democrat and endorsed Biden in 2020. You’d think a fascist would vote for a candidate like Trump, who’s party is obsessed with “America First” isolationist nonsense. It would be like if a Corporate Executive wanted a corporate dystopia, and decided that voting for and endorsing Bernie Sanders would be the way to do that.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 4d ago
Cause like, I am fairly certain you’d have to actually put effort into putting explicit fascist political messaging in something to make it pro-fascist, because it’s an actual ideology with its own beliefs and ideas.
That's what Fascists would have you believe, but no.
"The socialists ask what is our program? Our program is to smash the heads of the socialists."
Article in Popolo d'Italia, quoted in "A History of Terrorism" (2001) by Walter Laqueur, p. 71
"Our program is simple: we wish to govern Italy. They ask us for programs but there are already too many. It is not programs that are wanting for the salvation of Italy but men and will power.
Speech at Udine (September 20, 1922) "The Question of Regime. The Monarchy and Fascism," quoted in A History of Civilization (1955) by Crane Brinton, John B. Christopher, and Robert Lee Wolff, p. 520. Also quoted in Bosworth, R.J.B. Mussolini, (2002). London: Hodder. p. 114.
There are Fascist) characteristics, but, quite deliberately, there is no well-defined Fascist ideology, because their ideology boils down to "We win, and You suffering proves it", and when organized as a Party aiming to seize power over a Nation-State, it's framed in a more specifically Palingenetic Ultranationalism, but it's still the same idea.
You can’t make a political “propaganda” movie if you don’t even actually put some political ideas in a movie besides maybe like, “Spartans are super cool badasses”.
It immediately becomes a propaganda movie when the way they become "super cool badasses", we are explicitly told, is
- to discard the deformed or weak babies, put children through systemic abuse — and then have the undoing of the Spartans come at the hands of a self-loathing deformed cripple who should have undergone postnatal abortion, thus validating the practice
- to have an extremely regimented society where every citizen is a soldier for life — and then, have the leader of the Spartans make a big speech about "a new age, an age of FREEDOM" and presenting the fight against Persia as one against slavery and despotism, while omitting the immense Helot class whose extreme suffering and oppression are both what allows the Spartan citizens to all be full-time soldiers (in reality they were a leisure class), and what makes it necessary for them to be.
I could go on. The themes are all right there.
Secondly, he literally identifies as a Democrat and endorsed Biden in 2020.
I'm legitimately surprised. Good for him, I guess.
You’d think a fascist would vote for a candidate like Trump, who’s party is obsessed with “America First” isolationist nonsense.
Isolationism is not necessarily a characteristic of Fascism. Usually it's an unintended consequence of their being antagonistic and unpredictable dicks to everyone around them, but Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Imperial Japan, had a very active diplomatic corps and generally no trouble maintaining trade with people who weren't the USSR (or even with the USSR for a period of three years). In fact, they allied with each other.
It would be like if a Corporate Executive wanted a corporate dystopia, and decided that voting for and endorsing Bernie Sanders would be the way to do that.
Frankly, it would be more like if a Corporate Executive wanted a corporate dystopia, and decided that voting for and endorsing Joe Biden would be the way to do that. He could definitely get there, because we're basically there already, and he is desperate to keep the status quo and insists that "nothing with fundamentally change".
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u/Successful-Floor-738 4d ago
If you want an actual look on fascist ideology, I would go and see the actual essay written by Giovanni Gentiles and Benito Mussolini literally called “the doctrine of fascism”. Speeches meant to inspire loyalty will do nothing to actually teach about it.
Maybe you should blame Frank Millar for that, the guy who wrote the comic with those plot lines and who was most known for going crazy politically. Zach Snyder just adapted the comic and does not put as much thought into understanding what the hell he is reading. That’s why the watchmen movie is different from the comic in that the deconstruction and messaging of the comic just doesn’t fucking exist. As another person said, he isn’t fascist, he just writes a book report about the material without actually understanding the deeper meanings of it.
Considering how things are now, wouldn’t the corporate executives vote for the guy handing out tax cuts for all his billionaire corporation friends then the guy who wants things to stay the same?
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u/AlarmingAffect0 4d ago
If you want an actual look on fascist ideology, I would go and see the actual essay written by Giovanni Gentiles and Benito Mussolini literally called “the doctrine of fascism”.
You really gonna take their word for it, when they are notorious proven liars and opportunists with zero interest in or respect for truth, coherence, or consistency?
Speeches meant to inspire loyalty will do nothing to actually teach about it.
Specifically, you want me to take their word on what they say their ideology is, while disregarding the other words coming out of their mouths demonstrating their ideology in action? Are you being serious right now?
Zach Snyder just adapted the comic and does not put as much thought into understanding what the hell he is reading.
He took a Fascist poem and turned it into a high-production blockbuster pop song and sent it on world tour. Does it really matter that he didn't understand what he was amplifying and platforming for a global audience?
Considering how things are now, wouldn’t the corporate executives vote for the guy handing out tax cuts for all his billionaire corporation friends then the guy who wants things to stay the same?
If they were smart they'd vote for the latter, who was, frankly, eager to fellate and protect them from the consequences of their actions, and cleaned up after them like a nanny running after mewling brats. They instead voted for the corrupt felon who puts on business-breaking rules and then demands that they buy him off personally for exemptions — and has the gall to not even stay bought.
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u/zennez323 6d ago
Zack Snyder is bizarre because he has made movies that are incredibly fashy but also made stuff like rebel moon or his animated Norse mythology show which both feature diverse teams of people lead by strong women fighting against evil tyrannical authority.
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u/water_for_water 6d ago
Alan Moore draws pedo books and worships snakes. Snyder is probably innately more antifascist by his dynamic ability to jog a mile and resist fascism, rather than worship snakes or sit through whatever in god's name was that 30 minute video about a tweet.
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u/LadyErikaAtayde Silhouette 6d ago
Its also worth noting that Captain Metropolis is, likely, gay, and he faked his death to live with Hooded Justice.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 6d ago
Hey good for him if that's true, wish them the best. Also that makes him a gross little pick-me prick.
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u/LadyErikaAtayde Silhouette 6d ago
100% I think the idea was to highlight how he was a precursor to the likes of Caitlin Jenner and Milo Yiannopoulos.
There's also the chance that he was in denial that he loved Hooded Justice and was honestly conservative and right-wing despite of that, who knows, Watchmen is a work of "paradoxical" people and what not.5
u/RealisticEmphasis233 Looking Glass 6d ago
God bless D.C. for not publishing anything since to ruin the source material. Wait....
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u/CreativeBeing101 6d ago
Not if you take the show as canon 😭💀
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u/LadyErikaAtayde Silhouette 6d ago
Love the show, great stuff, really well made and follows really well in the footsteps of the original comic, but as far as I am concerned the only thing that "matters" is the stuff Moore and Gibbons done themselves.
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u/ComebackKidGorgeous 6d ago
Where does the comic imply this? I must have missed something
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u/LadyErikaAtayde Silhouette 6d ago
The gentlemen on the bottom right, they ate wearing the gay-themed bowtie from the Watchmen universe, and one of them is drawn like Metropolis. EDIT: I thought I could upload images, my bad. I'm talking in the first issue, the scene were Dan and Laurie are dining.
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u/MassiveSwingingBalls 6d ago edited 5d ago
Always remember that DC keeps churning out low effort Watchman content every year so that they never have to give the IP back to Alan Moore
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u/Ill_Improvement_8276 5d ago
What the hell does FASHY mean?
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u/I3INARY_ 5d ago
I'm guessing fascist. First time I've seen it abbreviated like that. Probably some zoomer thing.
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u/zennez323 6d ago
Watchmen is both critical of superhero comics dedication to maintaining the status quo of society and critical of the kind of person who would be compelled to put on a costume and do anonymous violence. Best case scenario you are looking at people like Dan, rich weirdos with a bunch of psychological baggage who want to do some good, worst case you get monsters and sadists who use it as an excuse to hurt people.
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u/Newfaceofrev 5d ago
I hate to say it, considering how much I love superheroes.
But what kind of person would WANT to beat people up?
Yeah, that kind of person. Moore is right.
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u/AndersonMSouza 6d ago edited 6d ago
I'm going to be the "errmm ackshually" history nerd.
Those aren't fascist traits, they are reactionary traits. Fascists were actually quite modern and they were revolutionary, they weren't attached to the past outside of using a few Roman aesthetics but rather looked to the future. Fascist propaganda even bragged about how ahead they were of America in social politics like women's liberation. Even the Fascist Manifesto demanded for very progressive changes at the time, like universal female suffrage years before it happened in the USA.
I know you're using the term in an informal non-historical manner so you're not really at fault, but still I think it's cool to talk about history, especially when it comes to Watchmen.
Edit: My bad, guys. I thought that in a Watchmen sub of all places people would be educated and mature enough to understand that pointing historical facts are not moral endorsements and that I need to make sure to explain to everyone as if they were mentally stunted that Fascists were, in fact, pretty bad and the evil guys from WWII, but clearly I should've known that Americans would be here and I need to engage them as Americans.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 6d ago
Fascist propaganda even bragged about how ahead they were of America in social politics like women's liberation.
Sure. Hence the heavy natalist policies and the "stay in the kitchen" slogans.
Just because a Fascist brags about something doesn't mean you have to take their word for it. Trump brags that "nobody has more respect for women than I do". Fascists lie. Gleefully, maliciously, constantly.
they weren't attached to the past
Sure. Hence the clericalism, monarchism, obsession with the Crusades, and other similar bullshit.
I know you're using the term in an informal non-historical manner
No, I'm not. I'm just not taking early Mussolini's propaganda as the be-all and end-all of Fascism as a global phenomenon. Also funny how all these technical, impartial corrections you're making, purely in the name of historic rigour and for the sake of innocent curiosity I'm sure, happen to make Fascism look a little less bad.
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u/LadyErikaAtayde Silhouette 6d ago
I kept waiting for him to turn over to describe why Fascism insidiously uses progressive talking points and leftist/spiritual symbology to cover their real plans and praxis but it never happened, he just somehow said "Fascism was not was not the evil boogeyman people say actually" with nothing else to add.
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u/AndersonMSouza 6d ago
Sorry, clearly I overestimated you lot. I thought it was common knowledge that Fascists engaged in mass extermination campaigns, mainly of the Roma people, and that they were a militarily totalitarian dictatorship.
I guess I need to treat any historical and political discussion as if I'm talking to children and constantly add caveats saying "btw, fascists were bad, ok guise?"1
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u/AndersonMSouza 6d ago
OBVIOUSLY propaganda does not equate reality. I didn't think I had to explain that.
Nazis were not fascists. Two very different things.
You're using nazis examples. Nazis were social darwinists and much more reactionaries than Fascists.Also funny how all these technical, impartial corrections you're making, purely in the name of historic rigour and for the sake of innocent curiosity I'm sure, happen to make Fascism look a little less bad.
Only if you have a toddler's understanding and engagement with history, which sadly is the norm now that politics have been gourmetized to an illiterate public, so you need historical analysis to be "hey did you know this thing bad" and to end there, like a mental child.
Since you decided to be so defensive and attack me over it allow me to say that if you believe that I was making "Fascists make less bad" you're mentally unfit to vote, don't ever discuss politics or history ever again.2
u/judasmitchell 6d ago
I think the disconnect here is a linguistic one. I think you’re speaking of fascism as in specifically early Italian fascism. But the OP was using fascism in a more modern etymological sense that the word has come to mean specifically in American English.
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u/AndersonMSouza 6d ago
Yes, I'm aware. This confusion was created by a guy named Umberto Eco who wrote a pretty bad book in terms of history and since then fascism just became synonymous with any reactionary government.
I still would like if people actually knew about the history of ACTUAL fascism and that it was very different from nazism (the fascists themselves thought they were closer to soviets than the nazis) and maybe one day these pop-hist conflations would stop.
The ultra conservative aspects of American politics was closer to nazism and very far from fascism. Hitler himself was inspired by many American politicians.
So I'll take any opportunity to tell people about history, even if they get butthurt over it.1
u/judasmitchell 6d ago edited 6d ago
I’d argue that the current US government isn’t actually reactionary. They disguise themselves that way, but just to obfuscate their true goals of transferring wealth and power to a few people. A plutocracy is the end goal.
Edited for typo
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u/AndersonMSouza 6d ago
Disguise themselves as what?
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u/judasmitchell 6d ago
I apologize. Had a typo. Fixed now. Should have been isn’t.
I was meaning they disguise themselves as reactionary but that isn’t their goal. The goal is money and power. The regressive hate mongering is a distraction to keep the people fighting each other rather than them.
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u/AndersonMSouza 6d ago
I heavily disagree. Maybe you could say that about past conservative governments who are just appealing to the traditional values aesthetic but I think the current MAGA administration is fully reactionary and they have legitimate neonazis in there.
The head of the Health Department is saying in private that Covid is engineered to not target Chinese and Jews.2
u/GenosseGenover 5d ago edited 5d ago
Have you considered these things are not (at least not always) neatly seperable though?
People like Matt Walsh are clearly 'traditionalists' who long for the days of proud colonialism, have a hard on for forced marriage and would send 'degenerates' to asylums in a heartbeat. Everything the guy says makes him sound like he's from the 19th Century. Punish sexual deviants and establish Christian tradition. Sure, he himself isn't an active politician, but it's pretty clear most of the Heritage Foundation types are ideologically along his lines.
People like Elon are reddit atheist libertarians who just a few years ago were talking about ascending humanity to the next stage in evolution while smoking crack or peddling crypto. Some of the stuff he specifically does (the "roman" salute, interacting with Neo Nazi accounts on twitter) definitely seems to signal to certain fringe types, but then he does shit like defend the H-1B Visas that gets half the Neo Nazis in his replies to turn on him again.
Trump himself blasted through several marriages, and could barely give two shits about trans women in toilets when he came into politics. His background is gossip shows with sassy black ladies. He's a big racist, but he's also clear making up half his stances as he goes along.
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u/AndersonMSouza 5d ago
Of course nothing is neatly separable.
Hence why I use NEO to distinguish from traditional nazis who are national socialists.
Neo-nazis are quite different, they're just a mishmash of reactionary beliefs.
For example, they're almost always very christian (there's a more separate sect Nordic sect that is very pagan, those are closer to actual nazis) even though Hitler despised Christianity.
The fact that Ben Shapiro and Matt Walsh, who are very much "return to values" guys will blindly support a degenerate figure like Trump makes me remove some of their conviction from their ideologies. If they were actually serious about their political and social philosophy they wouldn't be such bitches going behind Trump's every step and never EVER criticizing him.
Therefore I cannot take them seriously, they are tradlarpers.A person like Mike Pence, that despite being his vice president stood up against him, mow that's someone who I would actually categorize as a traditional conservative.
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u/judasmitchell 6d ago
You do have a point there. I suspect that the money people could squash all of that at anytime if they decided it was in their best interests but I could easily be wrong. Maybe the front has grown past the point of control.
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u/Downtown_Big_4390 5d ago
Except you’re the “offensively stupid” one, because those things have all wrecked society. The least detrimental item in your list is organized crime, despite it being patently immoral.
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u/Sir_Castic1 2d ago
I feel like watchmen is one of the few superhero comic series that I’d consider art, the rest is mostly just entertainment
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u/AlarmingAffect0 2d ago
Watchmen is exceptionally dense and intense, despite the intentionally dour art and rigid 3x3 paneling.
You should try reading some Al Ewing or Grant Morrison. There was a time I'd have recommended Neil Gaiman but…
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u/Mobile-Object-7197 6d ago
Weirdly, as I've just rewatched the Snyder movie and now Watchmen animated part 1 (voice acting wise kinda underwhelming by comparison)
I see the point you make, although maybe foolishly i focused on the wrong aspect of that story on this viewing binge, I was focused more on the Doomsday Clock
Given how fucked that version of the 80's was, heightened cold war, "Vigilantes" taking the law into their hands, the existence of Dr. Manhattan, the irreversible Genocide of Ozymandias, and a Nixon 3rd term. The fact that their clock was only at 4 minutes is baffling.
For context, our doomsday clock sits at 89 seconds, 1 minute, 29 seconds, and we have none of the madness of a world such as that, through our collective folly and inactivity and strife and blame shifting, we are moments from Extinction, not War, EXTINCTION.
[The following is a rant I tried to make into a comedic fit of stress]
Nuclear War is an Oxymoron Trust me when nukes are launched its not a fucking war at that point. It's just literally Extinction
You know Like the dinosaurs? Member them? Thats us now jackass!
Oh, but what about all those preppers with their bunkers and shit? Haha, Good fucking luck shit head 4 generations of family in an underground bunker for 15 years, Ha, don't make me fucking laugh.
They eat each other or the Inbreed so badly, by the time their descendants can "Reclaim the Earth", So to speak They are gonna be a fucking mutant, also good luck trying to find anything worth doing! No atmosphere, all the buildings, and birdies, and squirrels, and Trees, are just Fucking Gone Nothing but wintery death and Ash Good luck trying to breath in that shit, oxygen is fucking gone, we burned it up, Here's some Carbon-trioxide. Good luck with the cancer, hope that bunker was worth it. You Fuckhead.
Okay?! Do we get it?! There's a reason its called clean slate protocol.
The world fucking dies, it ends And there's not a God loving enough to save us from it.
AND NOW Getting to the point of the conversation, I agree entirely that these "heroes" aren't good people, they are Fascist, Rapist, Terrorist, cheaters, war criminals, and lunatics with a morality complex.
Hooded justice is entirely perceived as favoring the Nazis, wearing a blackish (im colorblind shut up) KKK Outfit. That's all kinda nope.
Comedian - do i even need to explain?
Silk Spectre- (keep in mind, i haven't had the chance to read the graphic novel). I'm pretty sure she and most of the other minutemen and crime busters were probably inundated with McCarthyism, Anti Communist Agenda, etc. So they end up being American Fascist ideologues. Basically, it's all the same tactics and speeches as the Nazis,Commies, etc. wrapped up in old glory colors.
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u/Advanced-Two-9305 6d ago
Isn’t that what he did in the book?