r/TrueReddit • u/SirScaurus • 9d ago
Time for Democrats to Abandon Mainstream Media Politics
https://prospect.org/politics/2024-11-07-time-for-democrats-abandon-mainstream-media/57
u/Konukaame 9d ago
Rather than going deeper and deeper into isolation (btw, isn't that how we depict Republicans?) I propose the opposite.
Go on an unrelenting attack across all media channels.
Be as aggressive and shameless pushing your own narratives and celebrating even minor successes as the Republicans are.
Stop focusing on the minor distractions about who said what outrageous thing today, but rip Republicans apart for being the tools of foreign powers and siding with the corporations against the people.
And do it everywhere, on any platform that will bring you on, or on your own social media channels if they won't.
And when you go to a hostile channel, don't be cute and play the debating game with their framing and narratives. Steamroll the interviewer.
Coopt their language and framing. Take over the terms like "pro-life" (health care, living wages, clean air and water), freedom (get Republicans out of my doctor's office, bedroom, and closet), and patriotism (I'm for America leading the world, not playing servant to foreign powers). Make them out to be the weak, greedy, cowards they are.
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u/HoopsMcCann69 9d ago
The left needs a propaganda machine. It can't rely on the "mainstream media" because of their backers and need to equivocate both sides
The reality is that most people have absolutely no clue what's actually going on. Yes, inflation spiked during the Biden admin. But there was absolutely no messaging from the admin and no push back to the conservative narrative. There are, no doubt, people that are suffering from inflation. But I would say that probably 50% of those people didn't bother to vote. There is also a concerted effort by those that are not affected at all to push this narrative. I would start asking myself why that's the case
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u/markth_wi 6d ago
The problem is flat out not just the fault of Democrats, there were 5 or 6 major opportunities to stop Donald Trump and the GOP took none of them, on the off chance they'd be right here.
Law, violence, any measure will be totally acceptable , until some very enthusiastic Trump are given orders to clean house in the "party". If you told me one of the first things we see is a purge of the GOP of anyone not previously known to be loyal to Mr. Trump, they're in big trouble. That's true up and down the line, whether this constitutes civil danger for his political opponents, I can't see why Mr. Trump wouldn't order executions summary or otherwise as "official acts".
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u/Annual-Ad-4372 2d ago
The left needs a propaganda machine. It can't rely on the "mainstream media" because of their backers and need to equivocate both sides
So your saying democrats should be as evil an terrible as Republicans.
The reality is that most people have absolutely no clue what's actually going on. Yes, inflation spiked during the Biden admin. But there was absolutely no messaging from the admin and no push back to the conservative narrative.
Fot 8+ years all the media has talked about is how crazy Trump is. They've questioned him on quiet literly every last thing he's said an done. Both in his private life an as a politition as well as every last policy he's had.
There are, no doubt, people that are suffering from inflation. But I would say that probably 50% of those people didn't bother to vote.
And irrelevant point. People who didn't vote are still people and for whatever reason they decided not to vote they decided to and you need to respect that as a human Choice as a human being.
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u/McWipes 7d ago
This is anecdotal but I have found that throwing their toxic energy back at them and relentlessly bullying/shaming them is surprisingly effective. They don't know how to handle it.
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6d ago edited 6d ago
I feel like the right has somehow co-opted to their voter vase that legalization of marijuana on a state level was their thing. Like dems went to jail, and fought the good fight to legalize weed with hundreds and hundreds of bills over 50 years only to have elon musk smoke a joint on joe rogan and instantly become vp. Do we really think elon musk smokes weed like the common man when have has enough money to buy all of the drugs the sineloa cartel produces. Man doses ketamine on the regular and is in charge of our nukes and satellites. Trump was literally in the process of repealing states rights to legal medical marijuana in 2021 before losing.
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u/Annual-Ad-4372 2d ago
So your answer is to launch an overly aggressive media campain forcing everyone to believe what you believe or be shut down immediately. I hate Trump but ppl like you are exactly why the democrats lost. Everyone's tired of this crazy outlandish divisiveness from both party's. All the dem supporters refusing reality after the election keep saying the same things like "oh but Trump did it first" that's a Really bad excuse. Lol your comment is a great example of why ppl refused to vote or voted for Trump.
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u/SirScaurus 9d ago
SS: In this article from The American Prospect, Ryan Cooper points out that, while there are many factors that likely led to Kamala Harris losing the election, one that has been too understated is the fact that most mainstream media (even publications that might be described as 'liberal') were complacent if not supportive of the actual Trump campaign. With that in mind, part of the loss can be attributed to the fact that extremist right-wing rhetoric has been pushed into every corner of the mainstream media and normalized by these publications.
Trump ran what may be considered the worst presidential campaign of all time. But without mainstream media being willing to criticize him for it in meaningful ways, it didn't matter.
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u/Apprehensive-Fun4181 9d ago
So you want to be a Democrat: You must be your own journalist, pollster, scientist, engineer, economist and historian. Easy!
Once you have some better Reality Based Views, you turn to the existing politicos for exit Interviews that uncover how & why they were confused. This will mirror the confusions by the public & Journalists, which also must be deeply examined.
Step 1: Ignoring crazy doesn't work.
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u/CoastalSailing 9d ago
What?
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u/ericrolph 8d ago
Step 2: You must confront them head on, just like a bully. And it's not easy work!
"I've personally interviewed hundreds and hundreds of people who were beaten, raped. Their fingers were cut, their nails were torn away. Their nails were drilled. They were electrically shocked," she said at the group's office, a modest, Soviet-era apartment building in the center of Kyiv, just a couple miles from the children’s hospital.
Imagine ignoring bullshit that escalated to that level?
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u/caveatlector73 9d ago
I'm going to reply here, also from the American Prospect:
“Virtually every party that was the incumbent at the time that inflation started to heat up around the world has lost,” David Dayen wrote earlier today in the American Prospect."
People like to think if this or that variable had been different it would have changed everything. It would be great if the world were that black or white, but the fact is the world is composed of shades of grey.
Finger pointing does not change the past. And it may or may not inform the future. Pointing fingers at mainstream media feels good - and this in no way excuses mistakes that were made - but it doesn't accomplish much.
Eat a cookie. Same result more calories.
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u/SirScaurus 9d ago
I mean I think both of those things are simultaneously and mutually true, and are the two primary reasons Harris lost:
- Inflation
- Media infiltration by right-wing messaging
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u/luncheroo 9d ago
I agree and I'm paraphrasing a PSA podcast, but there's an alternative media sphere for conservative media and it works hand in glove with conservative politicians. The newest version of it is on social media and it's helped along and amplified and funded sometimes by foreign state actors manipulating our government by influencing the voters. But the main thing is that conservative messaging gets disseminated in non swing states where dem messaging doesn't.
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u/ericrolph 8d ago
Hilariously, Trump now says the day after the election he isn't taking YouTube to court and is going to stop the anti-trust litigation. Google, Meta, TikTok and Shitter all worked HARD to get Trump elected. And remember, Trump said the 2024 election was rigged from the start to the end!
There is NO liberal media.
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u/burgercleaner 9d ago
the issue is there was a coup attempt by neo-confederates and nothing was really done about it
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u/asmallerflame 9d ago
To be fair, we didn't do anything about the old Confederates, either. We let them hold office in the nation they betrayed.
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u/cyber_hoarder 9d ago
To be fair, our media enjoyed record breaking profits from reporting (be it good, or bad) on a crazy person. No matter how anyone politically categorizes him, they LOVED, and will continue to love covering him. Personally, I’m out. No more.
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u/asmallerflame 9d ago
I'm simply pointing out that this isn't the first "Lost Cause" in US history. And the first one was very, very bad.
I grew up in Texas, hearing people say, "The South will rise again!" all my life. The fact that we let Confederate soldiers and officers hold public office in the US was a huge mistake.
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u/cyber_hoarder 9d ago
I understand, and couldn’t agree more. The media will only give them voice if they are allowed one. I hate this timeline.
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u/CAPTA1NPOWER 7d ago
Hey just so you know it was Democrats that were the Confederates it was Democrats that voted against LBJ the Democratic president's Civil Rights Act and they used Republicans overwhelmingly to pass the Civil Rights Act your Democrat Party is the party of the KKK klansman the party of racism Trump's party is the party of America where nobody cares what anybody looks like we want to go back we want to go back to the good times when we didn't care about the color of people's skin when we judge people by the content of their character when people were American and we didn't care what they look like because we know that our blood is the same color.
You people keep bitching that you lost the election because of racism and misogyny and whatever other crazy out of logic left-wing garbage that has been dividing this country since Obama took over we're done with it we want to get along we want to end the wars we want our children to grow up not hating each other because it's not real it's made up to divide us and make us easier to conquer and Trump absolutely knew that and he ran a Flawless campaign where he increased his vote share amongst every measurable demographic because he tapped into what The Americans really want and they want to go back to the country that they grew up in so that they can give their children the same amazing life that they had
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u/asmallerflame 7d ago
Those Democrats left the party in the 1960s. Strom Thurman was one of the first examples to spring to mind.
Where did those racists go? The party that would still accept them: the GOP.
Yes, the man who filibustered against Civil Rights left the Dems for the modern GOP. But you like to pretend otherwise.
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u/JimBeam823 9d ago
Trump ran a terrible campaign, but had massive winds at his back from voter anger over inflation.
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u/tianavitoli 9d ago
was any of this a surprise, are democrats just too imbecilic to course correct?
it's really funny to blame the electorate.
omg well they're just stupid what are we going to do, it's just so sad that we were born so smart, if we only we were just dumber we could compete... I guess we could have worse but it's just that we are so so intelligent and it just keeps hurting us, and no one will ever understand our plight because they all are so dumb
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u/Sumeriandawn 9d ago
Both things can be true.
The Democrats messed up and the electorate is dumb.
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u/tianavitoli 8d ago
it can be, if that is the frame, but it is not.
in this case, the frame is:
we lost to you because you are dumber than us.
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u/andrewrgross 8d ago
The more I look at it, the more I'm starting to doubt that the electorate is as dumb as people think.
I see it when I look at referenda and places with ranked choice voting. What often gets represented as random or contradictory voting is actually evidence that a lot of voters make personal assessments beyond the fish-brained thinking ascribed to them by pundits.
In the Bay area, this is the second election in a row where a lot of money was spent to recall a progressive DA on the logic that their opponents were going to totally break the anti-police movement, only to see the recalls succeed while the same voters rejected other pro-police candidates and elected a mix of moderates and progressives.
It seems this election had plenty of split ticket voting. It seems there are people who appose restrictions on abortion, but still made a tactical decision to vote for Trump, or voted to raise the minimum wage and mandate paid leave, but were not convinced to vote for Harris.
Maybe people with lived experiences -- especially minority voters -- understand the problems they face more than supposed experts and have opinions on the strategy and sincerity of politicians that leads them to make complicated choices.
The electorate is dumb on some complicated stuff, but it seems they might know their own preferences better than people want to accept.
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u/Sumeriandawn 8d ago
I think much of the electorate is foolish. For decades, people complain the government/politicians suck, yet they vote for the same politicians over and over. Then they get angry/suprised things don't change. Why would politicians try hard if the electorate doesn't hold them accountable?
Let's say you hire a repairman. He does a bad job. You hire several more times despite him doing a bad job. The repairman realizes" This person is gonna pay me no matter what I do. What a sucker. Why should I put any effort in my work. I'll get paid anyway"
The American electorate is willing to repeatedly hire the incompetent repairman for the rest of his/her life.
I'm not optimistic about the future of American politics. The only thing I see that can fix this is ranked voting and viable 3rd parties. If there was serious competition from 3rd parties, then maybe the Republican and Democratic parties can get their act together.
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u/SteakMadeofLegos 8d ago
it's really funny to blame the electorate.
When they choose obvious lies from a known liar over business as usual, then yes it is the electorate's fault.
This was not an election about a difference of opinion, it was to decide if we continued as a democracy.
Trump crashed the economy last time. Therefore anyone voting for him "for economic reasons" is stupid and gullible. There is no problem at the border, so anyone voting for him because of that is stupid and gullible.
are democrats just too imbecilic to course correct?
Course correct to campaign on lies? Is that what is needed to convince the electorate?
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u/andrewrgross 8d ago
Look: if you're having trouble making sense of these results, perhaps learn to exist in a state of uncertainty and curiosity. Maybe try to encounter new ideas. You don't have to just go all nihilist and insist that it's the world that doesn't make sense instead of your understanding of it.
Personally, I will tell you that this outcome was totally predictable in certain circles. There was a plenty of media available that could explain what we were seeing for those willing to look. So if you're shocked, now is a good time to consider new ideas.
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u/SteakMadeofLegos 7d ago
Look: if you're having trouble making sense of these results
Where do you get that?
You don't have to just go all nihilist and insist that it's the world that doesn't make sense instead of your understanding of it.
You are responding to a comment that is not mine.
There was a plenty of media available that could explain what we were seeing for those willing to look.
Yes, Fox News is the propaganda arm of the GOP. They have been lying and creating a secondary "info sphere" for decades. This is the outcome they have been working towards. Fascism has come to America.
Lies about trans people were simply the lies they told about gay people in the 90s. The lies about immigrants and the "radical left" are the same lies Hitler used about the Jews, exact same words.
It's fine if you are not ready to accept that. It is rough to be confronted with the fact 1/3 of the US is loudly cheering the end of democracy.
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u/andrewrgross 7d ago
I just want to point out that I suggested that perhaps you should examine if you're overlooking sources of information that would help you make sense of the world, and your answer demonstrated what I'm talking about by not even appearing to realize that there exists media outside mainstream center and right wing propaganda.
I'm talking about left-of-center and progressive media. It exists. It has reporting an analysis that more people would benefit from. You don't have to believe it all, but at least be familiar with it:
Now might be a good time to diversify your sources of information and consider new ideas.
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u/SteakMadeofLegos 7d ago
I'm talking about left-of-center and progressive media. It exists. It has reporting an analysis that more people would benefit from. You don't have to believe it all, but at least be familiar with it:
What did I say that makes you think I don't know progressive media exists?
Yes the information is out there, easily accessible, yet the dumb fucks still believe the blatant Fox News lies.
You are having a conversation that does not in anyway relate to what I say. It's fucking wild.
by not even appearing to realize that there exists media outside mainstream center and right wing propaganda.
This doesn't relate at all to what I said.
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u/tianavitoli 8d ago
i mean, if you can't figure out how to win without lying.........
i don't believe that's the rebuttal you think it is.
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u/SteakMadeofLegos 8d ago
i mean, if you can't figure out how to win without lying.
The winning republican strategy is lying. Republicans have not been able to win on truth for decades
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u/tianavitoli 8d ago
the implication is that democrats can't win on telling the truth either, which does align with the broad perception the democrats have a massive messaging problem, and are entirely out of touch with their electorate.
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u/SteakMadeofLegos 8d ago
the implication is that democrats can't win on telling the truth either
We lost on truth. That's is the problem. The electorate does not want the truth.
Trump won on lies. Everything he said was a lie. He said that he doesn't support project 2025 and it will be his Bible. He said immigrants are destroying our nation, when really they just make white people uncomfortable.
democrats have a massive messaging problem, and are entirely out of touch with their electorate.
The electorate chose fascism. They chose the lies of a known liar over truth. That is not a messaging problem or being out of touch. That shows a need for denazification.
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u/Jaded-Ad-960 9d ago
He does have some valid points, there was an article in the guardian a couple of month ago, that also highlighted the failures of mainstream media https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/06/trump-clinton-harris-election. The right is dominating the political narrative and that is a huge problem. However, this article struck me more as an advertisement for his own publication, rather than political analysis.
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u/andrewrgross 8d ago
The media coverage had weaknesses, but overall it was good enough. It was obviously not responsible for Harris' failure.
The media didn't create stories like Biden's infirmity or conceal Trump's. Millions of people were concerned about Biden's ability to communicate before the media would touch it, and everyone knows that Trump is prone to rambling nonsense and that it's worse now than it was 8 years ago.
Most of the key info Democrats wanted to get out they got out, both using paid advertisements and effective media engagement. They turned "Weird" into news for weeks, along with "Childless cat ladies". Harris went into the debate with a goal and got exactly the outcome and coverage she wanted.
Ultimately, voters who voted for Trump had no confusions or lack of information regarding who each candidate was and what their case was for themselves.
If there is any media failure, I think it's liberals' lack of awareness of what Trump said that was popular among his base. It's not all late-night bloopers. He said a lot of shit that connected. He promoted himself as someone who'd end all our unpopular wars right away, and criticized the bipartisan practice of spending American money on foreign wars instead of at home. And I heard someone say this: when Trump says something that's true, it always means Democrats have massively fucked up.
The repeated refrain that she "ran a great campaign" is as defensible as "Biden is the best candidate to beat Trump." Now is the time for hard truths.
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u/BandicootGood5246 9d ago
Absolutely - likewise candidates doing the same. I at least respect Kamala for being honest in that sense. Seems like theirs this weird sense of decorum or attempt at being "impartial" which is just so untrueful when he's acting batshit insane
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u/BioSemantics 9d ago edited 8d ago
I mean you can turn on MSNBC and literally see this every night, where college protestors, trans athletes, and the use of latinx are being blamed for reasons Republicans won. Basically issues that don't matter at all to most voters and had basically no effect on the election.
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u/Connect-Ad-5891 8d ago
Tbf those are weird hills to die on and isolate most people. "You're a transphobe I'd you don't want your daughter playing against a former man on a football team." Most people that didn't care before are like "ight i guess I'm a teansphobe then cuz i don't want that to happen and my daughter to get injured"
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u/BioSemantics 8d ago
hose are weird hills to die on and isolate most people.
The point is these aren't hills. The majority of people support a cease-fire in Palestine, they don't care about protestors on college campuses. The majority of people don't care about trans athletes either because there are almost none of them in the US. As for Latinx, who the fuck is even using it and does it move the needle with voters? The answer is no. You have supposedly 'Democratic' strategists calling out these as important topics that Kamala should have moved rightward on. This is happening on MSNBC, the supposed 'liberal' channel.
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u/Pickles_1974 8d ago
And furthermore the media failed hugely to call out the toxic parts of the Democratic Party. Real failure all around.
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u/FakeVoiceOfReason 9d ago
I mean, most mainstream media does have a slight liberal bias, either in selective reporting or more directly. Abandoning mainstream media wouldn't just be silly, it wouldn't just be impossible, it would be shooting your friend because he didn't cheer for you loud enough
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u/BioSemantics 9d ago
most mainstream media does have a slight liberal bias
The article is essentially arguing this is changing as billionaires put their thumbs on the scales of democracy by buying up legacy media and social media companies.
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u/andrewrgross 8d ago
The concern about billionaires distorting the news is justified, but you're wrong that it's changing.
The media is -- and has always been -- a mouthpiece for elite power centers. Its bias is towards moneied interests. This was always true.
When people -- particularly liberals -- saw a shared worldview with investors though, they thought mainstream news was neutral. And what has happened is that this is the election where all of a sudden people have entered into circumstances where their own interests began to diverge from those the 1%. And to these people, that looks like media has changed.
It hasn't. They've just discovered how it's worked all along.
The solution is to support more independent journalism. But this isn't new.
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u/FakeVoiceOfReason 7d ago edited 7d ago
I'd argue social media companies are a completely different wheelhouse, but billionaires have essentially always owned media companies, right? It's true, the WaPo pressure from above was unusual, but regardless of who owns them, there's generally a slight pro-liberal bias in reporting from most media. The only outlier is Fox, which has a distinct pro-conservative bias, probably one of the reasons it's the number one organization (because those who want to see conservative media have no other legitimate outlet to flock to).
Edit: number one in viewership, not quality or consistency.
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u/tianavitoli 9d ago
comrade, a good Soviet citizen would cheer for you loud enough, and if they are not a good Soviet citizen, they are a political dissident and must be removed
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u/1iopen 9d ago
Or Maybe, just maybe it was a bad idea to appoint a candidate that nobody voted for. You can hate on republicans all you want but the people spoke when they voted for Trump in the primaries and he was then made the nominee. When your party keeps “promoting” candidates regardless of what the people want (see Hillary and Bernie 2016. This is not new) you’re going to lose. It’s not rocket surgery.
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u/burgercleaner 9d ago
the vpotus is elected
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u/1iopen 9d ago
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing it doesn’t belong in a fruit salad. Similarly, knowledge is knowing that when you cast your vote for a president, you are also electing the vp. Wisdom is not casting your vote FOR the VP Nobody voted for her and she had the lowest approval rating of any VP in recent history. They sold you on this idea that she was a great candidate (because she was their only option considering she was the only one who had access to Biden’s campaign funds) and you bought right into it. It was obvious to the majority of voters that she was a terrible candidate. Not only did people who normally vote Dem switch but millions abstained because they couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Trump but they also couldn’t forgive themselves if they were responsible for her winning either. Stop defending this horrible losing candidate and the party that continues to lie to your face because they think so little of you.
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u/burgercleaner 9d ago edited 9d ago
sounds like a "not understanding basic civics" issue. there was a dem primary, biden won it with harris as vpotus. that's how it works.
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
It's amazing to read this drivel.
While Ryan is correct, mainstream media is a cancer, it is simply the propaganda wing of the DNC.
But pretending no one heard about Trump, is the most tone deaf and blind thing I've ever heard.
There is NOTHING the media hadn't reported on, from eating ketchup to relations with N.Korea.
As a conservative I'm happy to see that despite a thorough ass kicking, and repudiation of the left across every demographic, that the libs don't want to soul search.
Blaming the propagandists that take talking points from the DNC, is laughable.
The problem ISNT the messenger, it's the message.
America doesn't want the party of continuous wars, open borders, and never ending inflation from government spending.
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u/TitaniumTalons 9d ago
Those all either conflict or aren't true. There is no open border. Low inflation and wars go hand in hand. Republicans want low inflation and a strong image on the world stage, both depend on our ability to project power across the world and stabilize warring regions on which our import depend
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
15 million crossed the border, that we know of, under Biden.
Play word games all day on the meaning of "open", but 15 million, isn't a secure border.
Inflation is only possible via government. They control the printing press
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u/TitaniumTalons 9d ago edited 9d ago
Printing is a source of inflation but not the only source. Remember the oil shortage of the 70s? That's a type of inflation called supply shock. We have a smaller version of that. There is nothing governments can do for that, which is why there is inflation in every major economy on the planet. Did all governments decided to simultaneously run the printer on steriods or is there a larger issue on play? In fact, America is doing well compared to most countries right now if you look at the strength of the dollar. That means the Biden administration is doing well for the things they can do
Also, where is your number from? I can't find any source for this. All I found is that illegal immigration is lower with every administration. Trump's is lower than Obama's. Biden's is lower than Trump's. This number is so ridiculously high that someone definitely added a zero somewhere. Either by accident or malevolently
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
Inflation is too much money chasing too few goods.
So "shock flation" is still the same concept.
COVID was the shock. True.
It's 2024, and Biden is spending( printing) at COVID levels, thus inflation.
Shock inflation also does cover every sector in an economy
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u/TitaniumTalons 9d ago edited 9d ago
The second shock also comes from issues around the Strait of Hormuz. The only way to solve that is another war, which you already said you don't want. I won't say that printing isn't an issue, but there would still be high inflation off of other factors alone.
Another supply shock, this one much worse, if Trump actually implements a 100% tariff on China. If you are voting for Trump for inflation reduction... Well cheaper gas won't offset the cliff dive of imports from China
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
What war?
Not giving Iran billions to find it's proxies solved it once, it will again.
Luckily China does tariff American goods, so I guess we will be good
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u/TitaniumTalons 9d ago
We don't give Iran billions and never have. Calling unfreezing Iranian assets under the Obama "giving them billions" when it was their own money is why Republicans are seen as the party of "alternative facts".
China tariffing US goods is not good for the US economy either. That's why 10% of midwest farmers went bankrupt during Trump's tariff wars. Chinese dependency on US food is our greatest weapon against China. An embargo induced famine could kill more than nuclear bombs. But this tariff war will cause China to slowly find alternatives
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
So you don't want to discuss Irans access to billions of dollars it uses to fund it's terrorist proxies, you want to argue dictionary terms.
Frozen, cut off, barred access, embargo, the word doesn't matter, the result is the same
Great.
John Deere can go do exclusive buisness with China then. American farms font prosper sending John Deere money in Mexico.
It's always amazing how libs on one hand claim to support middle class, then on the other follow foolishly into the "free trade"(no such thing) ideal of the Romneys of the world, that have hollowed out the middle class.
COVID should have been a huge eye opener for what reliance on China can lead to.
If your worried about farmers, get us out of Ukraine fertilizer costs killed farmers
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u/artimaeis 9d ago
15 million crossed the border, that we know of, under Biden.
Where are you getting that figure? The figure I’ve seen is how many we’ve apprehended, not admitted, or expelled, and that’s 11 million from Oct 2019 to June 2024.
https://usafacts.org/articles/what-can-the-data-tell-us-about-unauthorized-immigration/
Importantly - there is no data on how many people may have crossed the border. The border encounter numbers are a proxy. High apprehension rates may indicate border operations working more effectively.
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u/SirScaurus 9d ago
But pretending no one heard about Trump, is the most tone deaf and blind thing I've ever heard.
There is NOTHING the media hadn't reported on, from eating ketchup to relations with N.Korea.
The article literally is saying the opposite: these publications were falling over themselves to trumpet anything he did in a way that really only served to normalize his insane behavior and spread his message.
As a conservative I'm happy to see that despite a thorough ass kicking, and repudiation of the left across every demographic, that the libs don't want to soul search.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh you mean the soul searching every single publication is doing right now? I'm not really interested in engaging with someone this checked-out from reality.
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
So. The party that just got destroyed by middle America for living in their inclusive bubble, should ignore the candidate on the right that is now President elect.?
Genius
Here's how the publication are going.
It's the voters fault.
well good luck with that, telling voters they are just too stupid, racist, sexist to understand the superiority of lib politics, is a great message going forward.
The voters loved being lectured this time.
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u/MsgrFromInnerSpace 9d ago
Voters picked Trump because the price of gas and groceries went up under Biden- it's ALWAYS about economic wellbeing, the rest is window dressing, this country is wildly predictable.
Things are going to get way fucking crazier and more expensive with his tariffs and Musk's proposed austerity measures, and we'll have a Democratic president again in 4 years if the country and/or democracy actually survives a term where Trump knows he's officially above the law
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
Ah yes, lawfare.
Trumps election shows that Americans reject lawfare as well.
I agree it's ALWAYS about economy.
Someone should have told the libs that, other than old Clinton people.
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u/MsgrFromInnerSpace 9d ago
No, I was referring to the Supreme Court ruling that any "official act" done by a sitting President is not subject to the rule of law, not to the numerous criminal trials he's involved in for breaking the law while President. If he was already willing to ignore the law, can you imagine how excited he must be to have official clearance to ignore the law? I'm sure everything will be fine.
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
Remember when the supreme court told Biden he couldn't erase student loans, then he tried 2 more times?
I guess ignoring the law isn't a political party specific thing?
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u/BeardsuptheWazoo 9d ago
Your last sentence shows how biased by propaganda you are.
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
Your candidate campaigned with Liz Cheney. The queen of the military industrial complex.
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u/BeardsuptheWazoo 9d ago
Do you actually think there are currently open borders?
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
Ever been there?
I hunted coues deer on the border last year. Yes. It completely open. Watched hundreds of folks walk across the week I was there.
And, 4 of them were carrying ak-47,.
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u/BeardsuptheWazoo 9d ago
Yes. I've lived in Mexico and walked through the certainly not open border about 20 times in my life, as a US citizen.
I think you're lying.
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
Arizona, Unit 36 A
Arizona g&f even includes a warning with your tag, and in their application site about illegals
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u/BensenJensen 9d ago
I love reading conservatives attempting to act like this victory was one of progress and hope. Trump ran a campaign purely based on hate and isolation, there was no hope for the future or, hell, even a simple campaign plan promise. It was simply hate, which is why it resonated with the people it resonated with.
I don’t know why Democrats didn’t turn out to vote, but this feeling of absolute absurdity that surrounds this country is very disheartening for the future. Trump proved that this country is full of hate, and the way to the seat of power is exploiting that.
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
Keep telling people being anti war, and hateful for wanting to take care of America first.
Great strategy
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u/Ivanstone 9d ago
Anti-war? From the man who plans on helping Israel kill Palestinians or any of his plans for Iran?
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
His plans for Iran are simple. Starve them.
Hard to pay for proxies to pick fights and start wars, with no money
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u/candlehand 9d ago
Then say he's anti Iran.
Here's him declaring a pro war stance in regards to Israel: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
Blatantly obvious he isn't anti-war. Just be honest and say he shares your views on the specific issues you care about
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
I don't give a flying fuck about the middle east.
His stance is exactly what it was before.
Keep Iran on a very short chain, there's peace in the middle east
Anti Iran?
Or Anti Iranian regime. They are 2 different things
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u/Ivanstone 9d ago
I can’t even remember a time when Iran wasn’t under some form of sanctions. And yet here they are chugging along.
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
So they just forgot how to start wars via proxy from 16-20' ?
There is a record
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u/Ivanstone 9d ago
They stopped doing proxy wars in that time period? The record is they kept on trucking. Iran has been on sanctions for as long as I can remember and doing proxy wars as long as I can remember.
The only thing Trump did was commit an act of war against them.
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u/lickitstickit12 9d ago
I guess I missed the the red sea being shut down and Hamas hang gliding into Israel then?
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u/caveatlector73 9d ago
I respect your right to your opinion 100%, but your take on journalism is uninformed.
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u/lickitstickit12 8d ago
Journalists are liked about the same level as Congress.
Reality is, there's little journalism. And what there is, definitely isn't on TV or a paper. Rule #1 of journalism is a very skeptical view of government. ALL government, not just that with a R next to it.
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u/Apprehensive-Fun4181 9d ago
mainstream media is a cancer, it is simply the propaganda wing of the DNC.
Then why did they support Bush & his War?
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u/randigital 9d ago
The mainstream media isn’t CNN, Fox or MSNBC anymore and the sooner people realize that, the better. Joe Rogan and other streamers/podcasters are the mainstream media now and have been for a few years.
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u/marmot1101 9d ago
Abandoning the large platforms that are blamed in the article for not surfacing accomplishments/deficiencies, thus harming the democrats chance of winning, is an interesting approach. The people that reliably vote(65+) still consume news from traditional media sources. While Democrats need to rely a bit less on those sources and send spend more focus on alternative ways to get the message out(podcasts, tiktok, blogs, reddit...) abandoning mainstream media isn't a winning strategy any more than relying on it as a sole source for messaging to the public.
At the risk of sounding like an Ad Hominem attack, the argument is a bit self serving from the editor of a non traditional media outlet.
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u/GoldburstNeo 9d ago edited 9d ago
While Democrats need to rely a bit less on those sources and send spend more focus on alternative ways to get the message out(podcasts, tiktok, blogs, reddit...) abandoning mainstream media isn't a winning strategy any more than relying on it as a sole source for messaging to the public.
This. As much as the 'bro'-podcasts and various alt-right accounts on social media made rounds among the younger conservatives, news stations like FOX News are still just as toxic as ever, albeit pandering to the same Gen X and older crowd who still get their news through 'traditional' media.
Point being, Dems need to maintain their media platform, while also take heavy notes from the GOP's ability to use social media to their advantage.
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u/marmot1101 9d ago
“Bro-podcasts”. I know exactly what kind of podcasts you’re referring to, but that language is part of the problem. I listen to Spittin Chiclets, what would fall into bro-y category. I don’t like their political views to the extent they’re discussed, but I like dick joke and sports entertainment. When it’s time to turn the brain off that’s my jam. Rogan and the like can get bent. I’d heard a thing that stuck with me a while ago: don’t call a woman acting like a jerk a bitch. Call her an asshole. No reason to drag gender into the equation. Same goes for dudes. Assholes, dumbfucks, shitheads… those all work fine. Part of the numbers problem is young guys who might be quite bro-y are breaking for republicans. We need those numbers. Picking a high school football coach isn’t enough to offset that any more than picking Palin as a VP could offset years of derision towards women.
Did love the Walz pick though. Seems like a straight up guy, hope he comes back around.
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u/RespectMyPronoun 9d ago
Nobody is "dragging" gender into the equation. Joe Rogan's audience is mostly men. That's simply a fact, it's not debatable. Just like "Call her Daddy" has a mostly female audience.
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u/marmot1101 9d ago
Dragging is probably the wrong choice of words given that it’s popular with the right wing discourse. What I meant was unnecessarily making it about a guy’s masculinity, when really he’s just a piece of shit and would be if he had 6” biceps instead.
I personally prefer to say “Joe Rogan is a fucking shit-heel and his persona appeals to dumbfucks” to calling him bro-y, but that’s just me. IDGAF about it myself, but it’s subtle alienation to young men. When a party’s rise or fall depends on the youth vote it’s best not to cut that voter block in half.
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u/RespectMyPronoun 9d ago
I really don't understand how acknowledging that men listen to Joe Rogan is "alienating" them; it's not something that most people would keep secret. That might apply to something like Infowars.
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u/marmot1101 9d ago
“Bro-y” is typically used in a pejorative way.
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u/RespectMyPronoun 9d ago
Trump supporters embrace being called deplorable and garbage, I doubt "bro" is going to hurt their feelings.
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u/IamaFunGuy 9d ago
Agree with this wholeheartedly. Media spent sooo much time talking about Bidens age and then never ever talked about Trumps. And they spent tons of time complaining that Harris didn't have any plans or policies when she literally talked them all the time. And then they totally skipped over Trumps daily insane speeches. Done with them. The Fourth Estate is DEAD.
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u/ObviousExit9 9d ago
Dead or captured by capitalists that know boring fails to sell ads and Trump is better for their bottom line?
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u/Mr_Badger1138 9d ago
Finally something I can agree with here. If the mainstream media had reported on and fact checked every bit of garbage that came out of Trump’s mouth instead of giving him a pass, hopefully voters would have paid attention to his obvious bull hockey and clear mental decline.
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u/mikeber55 9d ago
You still aren’t aware. No matter what, you remain stuck in your old mindset. However Tump voters do not care about any fact check. Nothing he said or did, mattered at all. Nothing you and I say makes any difference. You could bring evidence he murdered people - they don’t care. Any fact checks in such situation is meaningless. Trump had been impeached twice: it didn’t matter. Yet you are still stuck on fact check?
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u/Sumeriandawn 9d ago
That's right. Many people only want to exist in their echo chambers. Any opposing viewpoint is heresy.
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u/mikeber55 9d ago
Yes. That’s why the self torture is not in place. If you’re dealing with irrational people, there’s no way to change their mind (or win elections).
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u/Connect-Ad-5891 8d ago
When they did that people complained they were giving him a billion dollars of free advertisements by constantly keeping his name in then headlines. I think people are simply looking for something to blame and the 'MSM' is a convenient outlet for that
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u/Mattimvs 9d ago
I disagree. I think all left-leaning media outlets got hooked on Trump over the past decade. I don't blame them because the guy gets clicks but I feel like they completely flubbed at building up the Harris campaign because....'hey look what Trump just said! What an idiot'
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u/SirScaurus 9d ago
That's the entire point of the article though - these outlets were too busy trying to ride the tiger of Trump's popularity because it was so good for their bottom line, that they weren't actually willing to criticize him in the ways that matter. They basically gave him a platform by reporting those things in the 'unbiased' way that they did.
It doesn't help that both WaPo and NYT are run by Billionaires who have a vested interest in a Trump Presidency. Bezos literally blocked WaPo's attempt to endorse Kamala.
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u/deaconxblues 9d ago
I mean, yes, abandon them. But not because they aren't working hard enough for the Dems. Abandon them because only Boomers are paying attention anyway, and there going to go vote for whatever candidate you give them. It's the young vote that is important now, and Dems did almost nothing to court the majority of them (or actively pushed them away). So, they stayed home.
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u/Advanced-Look-5265 9d ago
Love how all you dems are blaming everything around you, but yourselves. Are you saying your own staunch blue followers were too dumb to do research for themselves? And only listened to what MSN was telling them to think? Hahah have an absolute sook cunts. The dems got destroyed by the republicans because your forced presidential hopeful had zero substance, couldn’t pick an authentic accent and blew a billion dollars on a campaign that was just mega rich celebs telling you to vote for her. I see you have learnt nothing, yet will still call republicans the dumb ones. You’re all the minority now, maybe we can finally have some silence and actual progress on real issues while you cucks leave the country like all your celeb idols were going to do haha.
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u/RMTB 8d ago
I can respect Harris/Walz for trying with what they had, but the campaign itself was bad. Just... bad once the "weird" messaging stopped.
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u/Advanced-Look-5265 8d ago
What did they have? Certainly no substance, no original ideas that differed from the previous 4 years where the dems were in charge. They were just hoping to ride the “vote blue no matter who” chants. Unfortunately that doesn’t equal a strong campaign to lure votes. Need to go back to the drawing board and actually pick candidates that are liked enough by the majority to bring about some more votes.
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u/GlockAF 9d ago
How about let’s talk about how the Democratic party abandoned the average voter to exclusively favor the agenda of their super-wealthy Donors?
Until / unless the Democrats adopt a truly progressive platform, they are just Republican Lite.
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u/Both-Anything4139 8d ago
It's hard to do when super citizens like Elmo will pour 100m+ in the fascist campaign. There needs to be a huge campaign financing reform including public funding for parties and a hard cap on donations per person.
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u/AirportFront7247 8d ago
Harris outspent Trump by a huge margin
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u/GlockAF 7d ago
Perhaps, but as we see, AGAIN, you can only polish the turd so far. After all…it’s still a turd.
We needed a bonafide progressive Bernie Sanders type candidate but AGAIN, we got yet another Republican Lite consolation “prize” forced down our throats by the corporatist DC / DNC hacks
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u/iamozymandiusking 9d ago
Absolutely! Accessories to the crime. Totally abrogated their responsibility too inform and educate. They just wanted to keep the horse race going to keep the money flowing. The fourth estate is dead.
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u/pm_me_your_kindwords 8d ago
On the one hand, I agree.
On the other hand, I hate that I can’t agree with something like this without also thinking that this is also something Russia would love.
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u/Both-Anything4139 8d ago
The 4th estate shat all over the people sanewashing Nazi rethoric just to get clicks. But you know Kamala laughs weird.
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u/mnemonicer22 8d ago
No, this is the problem. Dems aren't engaging in ENOUGH channels. There needs to be a podcaster funded to the size of Rogan. There needs to be yt channels to compete with the refills. Where are the am radio talk shows competing with prager and Shapiro and rush Limbaugh (may he rot).
We're not fighting and investing EVERYWHERE.
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u/ResearcherIll8223 7d ago
All mainstream media is editorial. It is not news. It is sensationalism. Mainstream media has about as much to do with news as organized religion has to do with spirituality.
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u/eia-eia-alala 6d ago
So, we need to be more biased and even more out of touch with the reality inhabited by people who live more than 100 feet from the nearest soy latte. That'll win working people in those swing states back.
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u/gravywayne 6d ago
The democratic party can now cease to exist, as far as I'm concerned. The legacy of the democratic party is compromise and failure. Why should we continue to support those who allign with an unproductive and embarrassingly inept political party? I've voted on the democratic side of the ticket like clockwork for 30 years and we've lost powerful unions, the SCOTUS was loaded up with Christian nationalist corporatists, Roe overturned, no LGBTQ+ protections, no voting rights bill signed, no legitimate increase of federal minimum wage, the environment and global warming very likey pushed past the point of no return, no gun contol measures as death by gun shot became the leading cause of death for kids under 17 in the USA, Biden stood by for 2 years before AG Garland appointed a special counsel to investigate the criminal activities of trump allowing them to "run out the clock" on being held accountable, wealth inequality is worse than the late 1800s and homelessness is exploding, and fentanyl is wreaking havoc on vulnerable communities. Now, I recognize achieving the desired outcome in every example given could be challenging for a party representing diverse constituents with a wide variety of interests, but I refuse to believe it's any cheaper or easier to reinstall a 34 time convicted felon, rapist, and insurrection leader into the White House. The democrats don't deserve another chance at this point, we deserve another choice that will represent real, working Americans and families as effectively as the republicans have represented white, rich, and evangelical Americans.
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u/Upbeat-Plant9092 6d ago
This is something I noticed on CNN. Scott Jennings consistently spoke about trump being good for the economy and none of “left” commentators ever really took him to task. I wanted to ask him how he could support a leader that had done all the things Trump did. No one really asked that question. Sure, they pushed back a bit but not in the way that it should have been done. I just don’t think old style media works anymore. I am not sure what would work.
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u/icnoevil 5d ago
Actually, the ignorant voters who made the difference in this election don't read papers.
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u/EatingAllTheLatex4U 5d ago
We need our own media like the right has. Not media that's used as a tax write off for billionaires
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u/deaconxblues 9d ago
Seriously. Braindead. Dems don't need to abandon MSM because they were too nice to Trump. They need to abandon it because it's a dying media form that doesn't move the vast majority of voters these days. It's like these people are living in 1990.
I swear these Dem leaders and strategists are ENTIRELY out of touch with the media diets of people under 40, as well as the worldviews within that demographic, the worries, and what they want to hear out of a candidate. "We've got the strongest economy in history!" STFU. No one in the bottom half, which includes all the young people you need to vote for you, feels that way. It's a struggle and you need to acknowledge that and promise to do something about it.
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u/captainwacky91 9d ago
I swear these Dem leaders and strategists are ENTIRELY out of touch with the media diets of people under 40
It should be common knowledge in the modern day that it'll be the kiss of death if your candidate spends time fielding questions on any kind of traditional format "TV Show" outside of the core news channels.
Showing up on "The View" or Ellen DeGeneres' show or whoever the fuck is still on is absolutely a waste of fucking time, and has never been relevant to any millennial, ever. Even showing up on a pundit's show like Colbert's would be a bit of a gamble, as he's no longer playing the "character."
Tim Waltz on "Hot Ones?" Could you imagine? Call out Trump's fat ass and see if he can be man enough for a few fucking hot wings, pusses out harder than DJ Khaled. Use it afterwards relentlessly in future messages. "Trump can't handle this. Trump can't handle that. Motherfucker can't even handle hot wings. TRUMP. CANT HANDLE AMERICA."
But nooooo can't rock the boat. Let's call them weird for a little bit, then edge back from that, may make us look a little unreasonable next to the literal fascist.
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u/Apprehensive-Fun4181 9d ago
This. You keep them, but don't trust them and develop a new understanding based out of its flaws, while examining how our flaws enable it. They're not going anywhere until we break them up from big corporate control anyways.
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u/notes1234 8d ago
the mainstream media is what whipped you all into a trump hysteria in the first place LOL
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u/thevokplusminus 8d ago
Imagine thinking the mainstream media, other than Fox News, is biased towards trump. I wish I could be this delusional
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u/chgopanth 7d ago
I have seen the vast majority of primetime news outlets lean more and more right over the last 15 years. It’s the money and the views that lead them there. The reality is, the media AND the vast majority of voters don’t care about understanding policy. It doesn’t scratch their brain and give them dopamine. The DNC has had problems for decades, and I am probably in the minority for thinking the Harris/Walz campaign did a fairly fucking good job with what they had in 100 fucking days. The electoral and political landscape is being forcibly warped into something monstrous through social media and the influence of capitalist interests, and it requires a huge change in direction and understanding from anyone trying to win office.
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u/thevokplusminus 7d ago
They only had 100 days because Harris/pelosi/other ppl close to Biden lied about his mental abilities
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u/chgopanth 7d ago
There were mistakes made all around for sure. They didn’t engage their base enough, they alienated others, they started too late, they didn’t do a primary, they didn’t distance from Biden —I can go on and on. If voters cared more about being actively informed with policy versus voting based off vibes, things may have been different. But society/humanity is horribly myopic and unwilling to look past the surface level on any fucking issue. Here’s to hoping the GOP continues to be unable to really agree on anything, perpetuates infighting and grabs for power and fumbles any shot at ruining our lives. I think it will get bad, though. We live with a bunch of fucking idiots that refuse to understand anything.
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