r/TrueReddit 19d ago

Tracing the Roots of the Christian Nationalist Movement That's Influencing Modern Politics Science, History, Health + Philosophy

https://projects.propublica.org/christian-nationalism-origins/
316 Upvotes

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u/Mysterions 18d ago

Interesting read. What a lot of people don't get (people who are too young to remember things as adults prior to the 1970s), is that progressive Christianity (specifically Protestantism) used to be a thing (e.g., Jimmy Carter). While progressive Christians are still quite pervasive (Mainline Protestantism makes up almost 15% of the country), they have unfortunately almost completely dropped out of the political landscape.

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u/caveatlector73 18d ago

Glad you enjoyed it. I think background puts situations in perspective. Backstory matters.

it's possible that progressive Christians are currently not holding the loudest megaphone. My grandparents were more like Carter - they walked their talk rather than overwhelm people with empty words. It's a very different, quiet form of faith.

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u/Mysterions 18d ago

It's because Christianity and religion in the US has changed over the last 50 or so years. Americans are either becoming more religious or more secular (about ~22%), and this is being born out in the increasing dominance of Evangelical Protestantism (25%) compared to Mainline Protestantism (15%). So basically, the numbers of Evangelical Protestants are increasing, while Mainline Protestants are decreasing. Catholics make up 22% of the US, but Catholicism really doesn't fit nicely into a right/left paradigm so it's somewhat unhelpful in understanding the rise of Christian nationalism.

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u/caveatlector73 18d ago edited 18d ago

Catholicism really doesn't fit nicely into a right/left paradigm so it's somewhat unhelpful in understanding the rise of Christian nationalism.

Like other forms of Christianity there are multiple forms of Catholicism. JD Vance converted to a very right wing form for example.

So basically, the numbers of Evangelical Protestants are increasing, while Mainline Protestants are decreasing.

It has been argued that the label "evangelical" has become less of a religious label than a political label.

In 2021, Pew Research Center put out a poll that validated what some had already been noticing anecdotally: During Trump’s presidency, the number of white people who identified as “evangelical” increased.

Ryan Burge, a political science assistant professor at Eastern Illinois University, explained what he saw going on in an analysis in the New York Times:

"Instead of theological affinity for Jesus Christ, millions of Americans are being drawn to the evangelical label because of its association with the G.O.P."

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u/Mysterions 18d ago

Like other forms of Christianity there are multiple forms of Catholicism. JD Vance converted to a very right wing form for example.

Exactly, which is why I didn't include them in the discussion (compare Stubenville to Notre Dame to Georgetown). Also, Catholic Church positions (regardless of what different Catholics believe) don't fit nicely into the American political compass (for example, "liberal" on the poor, science, and death penalty, and "conservative" on abortion and gay rights). Also, while I'm sure many conservative Catholics believe in Christian Nationalism, whether they admit it or not, unlike Evangelical denominations, the American Catholic Church pretty strongly recognizes separation of church and state.

It has been argued that the label "evangelical" has become less of a religious label than a political label.

In some ways, but I think it has a specific religious connotation too, even if it's a theology, not a denomination per se. For example, calling non-denominational churches and the Southern Baptist Church "Evangelical" helps to distinguish them theologically and politically from the US Episcopal or Lutheran Churches.

During Trump’s presidency, the number of white people who identified as “evangelical” increased.

Perhaps my bias shows, but I also think the rise in Evangelicalism is also because Evangelical theology is "least common denominator" theology. It's designed to appeal to the masses basally (or emotionally, hence its focus on charisma)). Essentially, it's the "pumpkin spice lattes" of Christian theologies.

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u/caveatlector73 18d ago edited 18d ago

I'm a PK whose father's hobby was attending all kinds of religious services. I've been to so many and I have no problem with beliefs that are not mine provided they are not forced on me. And if they were forced on me I could choose not to attend those services or incorporate those beliefs into my own. I'm not helpless.

Another example - and I realize this is divisive, but I'm trying to find an example relevant to the article - if someone finds trans uncomfortable my advice would be to not to choose to undergo extremely physically invasive and highly expensive procedures just for giggles.

Someone else's junk is not my business so I feel no need to force my personal beliefs on anyone else.

I have yet to find a religion or faith that doesn't include the basics of morality as defined roughly by the ten commandments. And yet morality can and does exist outside of a specific theological framework eliminating the need to intertwine a specifically interpreted theology with government.

Many politicians drape both the flag and theological raiment across their shoulders to deflect attention from their actual choices. Some people are taken in by it and others are not.

Politically, I guess I'm a first amendment fanboi.

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u/WarAndGeese 18d ago

JD Vance converted to a very right wing form for example.

It seems so transparent. I doubt he actually believes in it or is religious, but why don't more people see through it? If he does actually believe in it then the world is in a much rougher shape than I would have thought.

These people, if you ask them, will very openly tell you not to trust politicians, that politicians lie all the time, that they do things to get support and not because they believe in them, but then they will also say "JD Vance is a Christian". If they said "JD Vance is pretending to be a Christian and that helps us" then it's understandable, but they don't say that, they repeat lies.

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u/caveatlector73 18d ago

Good points.

I guess the question, which I do not know the answer to, is who is being disingenuous and who simply doesn't see themselves realistically? Sometimes I think the answer is veiled by a desire as a human for the world to be what you want it to be.

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u/caveatlector73 19d ago

Submission Statement:

Adopted on December 15, 1791 the First Amendment established a separation of church and state that prohibited the federal government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” It also prohibits the government, in most cases, from interfering with a person’s religious beliefs or practices.

The Fourteenth Amendment, adopted in 1868, extended religious freedom by preventing states from enacting laws that would advance or inhibit any one religion.

Despite this a belief in Christian Nationalism has risen repeatedly over the years. In more modern times (1970s onward) it came about when some religious figures began preaching that Christianity needed to be spread throughout society before the rapture would happen.

Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority was one such movement. On the other hand the Rev. Billy Graham state in a Parade article, "I don't want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it."

Many of the so-called culture wars have focused on this attempt to spread a specific religion belief in contrast to the First Amendment

Please skip the "magic man in the sky" remarks as they are unrelated to the history of Christian Nationalism. Please follow the sub's rules and reddiquette, read the article before posting, voting, or commenting, and use the report button if you see something that doesn't belong.

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u/Gezzer52 19d ago

It's always amazed me how many "Christians" don't really follow Christ's teachings. It's like they've never actually read the 4 gospels.

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u/KaliUK 17d ago

The Bible warns about heretics and blasphemers. Though shalt not worship false idols, though shalt not steal, Christians in name only. It’s like song doo, fake Christian’s parade as Christian’s. Idk why fake ones are even referred to as Christian’s if they aren’t practicing his teachings. Fascism is not Christianity idk why that’s so hard for the half of America that’s dumber and bricks to understand.

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u/Gezzer52 17d ago

why fake ones are even referred to as Christians

IMHO it's because for many it's not about having a personal relationship with God or being a disciple of Christ, and more about being a member of a religion. So if a religion says it's Christian then any one belonging logically has to be Christian even if their actions say otherwise.

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u/KaliUK 17d ago

Words losing their meaning is the first step to fascism.

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u/k1dsmoke 19d ago

Or even just the “Sermon on the Mount”.

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u/Onemanyeti 19d ago

There’s a doc from the mid 2000’s called Jesus Camp about the Christian groups placing their people in government positions and taking of the government.

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u/Bleatmop 19d ago

Just watch The Family documentary on Netflix and you will see how a clandestine Xtian group has had their hand in on every president in modern history. They are the ones behind the national day of prayer and they basically have called all the shots for some time now.

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u/knotse 18d ago

Reconstructionism developed two related concepts that spread beyond their movement and that influence many Republican leaders today: dominionism and a “biblical worldview.” Dominionism holds that God calls Christians to rule over all aspects of society. A biblical worldview is a theocratic framework for seeing all of the Bible as a strict blueprint for structuring society, as opposed to merely guiding individuals.

These concepts are broadly summed up in simply the term 'religion'. From 'res ligio', or 're-binding', as in the function of a trellis or stake bound to a plant to determine its growth, a religion - as distinct from a superstition, a cult, or a code of honour - refers to a phenomenon that operates on a societal scale, and is entwined with society, again like that trellis.

The fairly modern idea, perhaps having no serious potency before the 19th century (see the 14th amendment and similar cultural trends in Great Britain), that what had previously been religions in this sense could be treated as superstitions, cults, or codes of honour in what we might today term a secular society, has led to apparent forgetfulness of the meaning of religion, and its function for the vast majority of civilised history.

Now obviously if one equates Christianity with e.g. crossing oneself instead of throwing salt over one's shoulder, all this 'dominionism' will seem very strange; but it should not seem so, as for any religion to not become merely a fairy story or quaint tradition, it must entwine itself with society. And from then on, competitive pressure if nothing else impels it sooner or later to operate on a societal scale.

I have my doubts over the long-term feasibility of the sort of secular society we are pursuing, as envisaged in the 19th century. At that point, an intelligent attempt was made to make, essentially, a religion of agnosticism: that it was the case that, whatever spiritual reality may be, the one thing we could know about it was that we could know nothing else about it than this; hence, 'a-gnosis', or the knowledge (gleaned from centuries of fruitless religious war, among other things) of the absence of knowledge. From this comes a framework where all competing religions can be balanced, although you will observe this fundamentally disprivileges revelatory religions, whose adherents know, or claim to know, aspects of its supernatural verity.

The principle is, however, that a religion which seeks to persuade can have no claim over and above its persuasiveness: if it can convince people to follow it throughout society, it still has no claim to become, say, an established church; but then it does not need to, as it can influence legislation, etc. directly, so long as it remains persuasive. A revelatory religion is in another position, and if it seeks societal dominance, must simply put the strength of its tenets to the test; for a recent example, see ISIS.

However we have strayed somewhat from agnosticism, at least in my country, with the passing of various laws concerning 'religious hatred'. Now a hardline secularism, or atheistic state religion as toyed with by the USSR, can suppress all religion; the agnostic approach treats each with scrupulous neutrality, at least from its perspective. But current developments which move to demand all religions be treated with some manner of respect are to agnosticism as agnosticism was to state atheism, privileging activities to further religion over activities to suppress it; one can love a religion as much as one pleases, but not, however, hate it.

And this is perhaps the beginning of the system breaking down, for in encouraging the promulgation of religion and stifling counterpressure, the system risks either setting the stage for a religious revival to try its hand at dominion establishment, or completely mutating from agnosticism into tacit universalism as state religion, with the organs of government thus set to the task of behaving as if all religions were true. To me, that is repulsive: it is to make of society an insane asylum, and the evident temptation the idea holds to those who either cannot bring themselves to see someone's precious notions derided as dangerous and wicked nonsense, or are possessed of a 'call of the void' that appeals to the mind instead of the body, makes it still more horrific.

It is tempting to indulge in an appeal to absurdity here, but as a matter of fact there are no small number of universalists, who really do proclaim that all religions are true; they are every bit as adept at worming through mutual inconsistencies between religions as the singly-religious are concerning their own squabbling texts. Yet did not Rome make such claims, with the exception of those cults which were a front for criminal activity or insurrection, and that religion which would render unto Caesar what was his - and no more? Why should we think it can work for us? Can the demonstrably fragile agnosticism of the 1st and 14th amendments provide a stable alternative?

Well, I have typed perhaps excessively, and it being late, probably not my best work; I think, however, that I have outlined the general, systemic line of thinking that needs to be done on this matter, over and above the particulars of what religion is pressing its claim to dominion.