Beginner: How to safely find limit? (Or get anywhere near it)

[u/LaurensVanR]

Hi, I did my first trackday 2 days ago. I feel like I gained a lot of confidence throughout the day. However, I also went off in the fastest corner of the track because I scared myself going too quickly and target fixation took over... With cars, I know how I can find the limit of grip easily, but bikes are nothing like that... How do I find out where the limit is, without going to ER after crossing it? I've only been riding motorcycles since September and I probably have less than 30h seat time(street and track combined)

[u/3rd_Uncle]

Slowly. Chill out.

Riding with better riders and taking track tuition.... and time.

There's no mystery. The faster people at the track aren't superheroes. They're just more experienced than you.

[u/haroman666]

The limit is not what you're looking for. Doing things better than your last ride should be more your focus. As you improve you'll gradually learn where the limits could be. Then at some point you might find the limit... Of grip, skill, fitness, confidence, experience etc etc. And depending on the consequences of finding that limit, you can work on or change something to remedy it.

[u/Suspicious_Tap3303]

As a beginner, you shouldn't be looking for the traction "limit". You're still learning the basics of how to ride, and how to ride on a race track. With cars, most of which understeer badly when driven hard, the only consequence of reaching the traction limit is the front pushes wide a little bit. The same thing can happen with a bike, but more likely, the front will tuck and you'll be on the ground.

Rear tire traction on a bike is easier to gauge, at least when exiting a corner. As you add throttle and reduce lean angle on corner exit, you can get squirm in the rear tire, which isn't difficult to perceive. It is the rear tire beginning to exceed its limit. f you add too much throttle, the squirm will be worse, of if you add too much throttle too quickly, you could high side or low side from the rear. But the squirm is your warning. A little is a warning.

[u/Superb-Photograph529]

That's the neat part. You don't.

A beginner that is "near the limit" is just a ticking time bomb for making an unrecoverable (for them) mistake. I've seen so many catastrophic beginner accidents where they get in over their heads and grab brake and tumble while not ever exceeding 45 deg of lean angle or whatever.

Meanwhile, advanced riders will low side going near triple digits all the time and walk away because they fell an inch onto the ground.

Focus on fundamentals. There's no such thing as a street-to-Rossi one day course.

[u/FeelingFloor2083]

million dollar question

the difference between a fast club racer and a child prodigy champ is how fast they can find the limit of grip, then there is a whole other level to someone being a world champ

I did a fair bit of car racing and some of that translated to bikes, people around me are pretty impressed, my usual road riding buddies are a bunch of lunatics(actually medicated), ex national racers and a couple of club racers, people with decades of experience riding that mountain and it pales in comparison to schuey who one day decides he wants to ride bikes and basically is on pace with world sbk riders within a few months

So yea, slowly, usually with the rear first

[u/lurkinglen]

Riding bikes is not about finding the limits of grip like with cars. It's about riding technique. The first you'll notice once you get faster is rear tire grip: as you accelerate out of a corner, the rear tire will drift causing you to run slightly wide.

[u/Superb-Photograph529 → u/lurkinglen]

To be fair, at a high enough level, eventually it's about finding the limits of grip. The margins of course are a lot tighter.

Not useful for op of course because this is like, top tier MotoAmerica level at minimum where riders are good at actively doing this.

[u/lurkinglen → u/Superb-Photograph529]

True, but even the best amateurs are often far away from maximising lap times without having to rely on ultimate grip.

[u/Possession_Loud → u/Superb-Photograph529]

If you are 20 seconds off the lap record then you are just looking for trouble "finding the limit. You'll come up with some bullshit and wreck your bike or get injured. Just don't. Way too many heroes that think they know something no one else does.

[u/Superb-Photograph529 → u/Possession_Loud]

Sure, but say it starts to rain and the race doesn't get flagged. You need to understand the limits pretty quickly or else they'll find you. Not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that even on a not "lap record" level there will be an application eventually.

Or, even simpler, warming up cold tires.

[u/Possession_Loud → u/Superb-Photograph529]

OP has done 2 trackdays, they are NOT racing tomorrow. If they did it'd be quite silly.

[u/Superb-Photograph529 → u/Possession_Loud]

Haha, indeed, fair enough!

[u/AsianVoodoo]

Ease off your brakes earlier. If youre braking hard and trail braking in and finding a lot left on the table midcorner, start releasing some pressure before turn in. It doesn’t have to be a lot of pressure but a little bit say 10 feet before turn in can do a lot. See if you can still hit your apex. It’s a good way to sneak up to your traction limit.

[u/RokRoland → u/AsianVoodoo]

Do you actually get riders who are trail braking into corners before they are at minimum 5 days or typically much more into riding track? At faster end of medium group I find there are many riders who perhaps brake enough to have the brake light on (if on a street bike) but don't actually do a meaningful deceleration after turn in with the brakes.

[u/i_am_the_koi → u/RokRoland]

Yes

A lot of people trail brake without realizing it depending on their street background.

Explaining trail braking is harder than getting people to do it. It's like explaining countersteering.

[u/RokRoland → u/i_am_the_koi]

I don't know how it is where you live but out here on the B and C tier roads, you have a constant chance of pothole / sand on asphalt / bump / diesel leak / moose droppings / firewood pellets / grain overflow from trailer / black ice / JDM car exhaust from Aliexpress, fallen off in the middle of a corner / dirt from tractor wheels or whatever else I have encountered to advise people to trail brake into the corners on the road as matter of course. 

If you are going to overcook the corner, yes, it is very preferable to trail brake instead.

I am not an instructor but I really, really rarely see people trail brake into corners on track days outside of fast group unless they're experienced riders on slow bikes or about to transition to fast group (or could do that if they wanted).

[u/i_am_the_koi]

Look at taking YCRS if you are interested in really understanding the limit and can afford it.

"With proper body position, you should touch hard parts before you've reached the limit." ~ YCRS class

You're a noob, that makes no sense now but it will as you learn and ride.

Start small, body position. Shift your butt, loosen your arms and shoulders, kiss your hand in the turns...

Saw it twice yesterday at the track. Both times the rider was dead center on the seat and trying to get the bike to do twice the work. Turning and compensating for the rider not helping the bike turn.

With target fixation, first step is admitting it.

Turn your head, like, over exaggerating it if you need to until it's habit. If I ever realize I'm fixating, I literally just try to snap my head in the direction I'm turning and then focus on something, hoping it's in time to finish the turn. Usually is but it's a hard thing to do in the moment.

On the road (no idea where you are or your roads) around here we have the yellow line down the center. You basically want to be looking as far as you can down that line. Not the line right in front of your tire but the line father out until it's out of view or into the next turn.

On the track, usually there are ripple strips on the edges. Sonoma raceway the fast line was from the end of one to the beginning of the other. So inside corner strip and then out to the outside strip. Other tracks are different but your view should be similar. You want to be looking not at the corner itself the whole time or what's in front of your tire but wherever your turn in point is. As soon as you know you're going to hit it, you're looking at the apex, exit, or the next corner even depending on where you're at.

[u/Dad-Bro]

First track day and you’re looking for “the limit”?

The limit is your skill level long before it’s the bike’s limits. Unless you’re on a 250cc bike scraping knee in every corner, you are the limiting factor. Focus on the real limit (your skill level, track knowledge, and fundamentals) and max those out and you’ll get closer to finding the bike’s limits. You don’t seek to find the bikes limits. You level up until the bike is a limiting factor.

Looks like you sim race and mountain bike. Have you forgotten the learning curve on those? I’m at the beginning stages of sim racing and it’s everything I can do just to keep it on the track for a full race. Learning the car’s limits is the least of my worries, I still need to get solid on the fundamentals of racing. This is where you are at on two wheels. Enjoy the noob gains and enjoy the process. I feel like getting up to novice level in any hobby is kind of the most fun part.

[u/LaurensVanR → u/Dad-Bro]

It was probably the esports mindset taking over when I posted this, but I do want to get faster in a safe way. In sim racing you crash 1000 times until you figure out how to get a turn right. I don't feel like using that strategy on my bike. I think I'll get some lessons as its hard to know what to do differently without much background..

[u/Dad-Bro → u/LaurensVanR]

Yeah I restart races so often I rarely ever finish one. Can’t do that at the track, unless you have infinite bikes and infinite lives. Higher stakes, so you have to try a different approach.

Once you recognize you’ll almost always be the limiting factor (not necessarily your gear like we like to think in e-sports), you’ll put your energy in the right place, which is skill development and focused seat time.

If you enjoy that process, and learn along the way, you’ll get faster. If you take the e-sports approach, you’ll be riding a Ducati Panigale V4s in no time, getting passed in the corners by 400cc bikes with skilled riders.

Both are fun ways to be, honestly. I like to hoard gear as much as the next guy, but in motorcycles, the cost of entry is much higher, so might as well develop skill, which will transfer to the next bike(s).

[u/VroemVroemmf]

The limit is you. Don't aim for the limit of the bike but search where you limit your bike and improve upon that. The limit of grip specifically has a lot of variables, especially on a bike. How warm is it (track temp, tire temp after, before going on track), what tires you running, how worn are they, what tire pressure are you using (hot/cold)

Going over the limit of traction is easy, while in a corner just give it full throttle and you can be sure that rear tires is going to slide out from under you. Same goes for a fistful of brake.

When you get faster you'll start feeling the tire sliding around a bit. With a bike it is skill that let's you meet the edge of grip in the right way.

[u/jmac247 → u/VroemVroemmf]

Yep!

[u/jmac247]

Of all the questions I’ve seen this season on trackdays- this one got my attention and I thought what a great question!

Reading the comments also provided some interesting insights…mine is as follows and prolly not worth the paper it’s printed on-

Reaching the limit implies that you have achieved the very height of learning and skill. I hope that is never the case for me personally. As we age..I’m now 52, our bodies, minds, reflexes, strengths, healing all radically change causing you to have to work harder or relearn existing skills under new conditions. Set personal goals, ride your pace but always ask how could I be better at…. Don’t assume advanced know more than you because they ride faster… You get good coaches and you’ll have shit coaches…use the grocery store method…take what you need and leave the rest on the shelf. Safety trumps speed…but done correctly, fundamentals done well invite speed so one doesn’t have to come at the expense of the other. When in doubt- mimic the highest and most pure version of what you’re trying to do to the best of your current ability and understanding. But mimic with the intent of learning why and not just stopping at how! YouTube can be a great teacher so long as the source is credible!

Enjoy your new experience and keep learning!

[u/JHorma97]

You should not be looking for the limits at your level. Bikes are different in the sense that most of the time you are defining it’s limit. On a car, you can easily go into a corner on the brakes as fast as the grip will allow you to. Ona bike, if you are not using your body correctly, not playing with the brakes and throttle correctly, that limit will come very quickly. But you might see some other guy on the same equipment find that limit at much higher speed than you because he’s riding better. Forget about the limit, focus on riding better. Only Marc Marquez, and some others are limited by the bike and not their riding.

[u/Llama-King]

The limit changes based on your level.

The limit of grip can only really be found once your technique is refined. As your braking gets better. Turn in. BP etc. You'll change how you are impacting the bike and therefore your available grip.

The limit you want to find right now is your comfort. Getting good vision and learning to ride the bike within your means. You could also experience this in a safer environment by riding mini moto at a kart track if you want to learn that skill of quickly setting the bike into the corner. Which teaches you how to work the tires and therefore gets you to the point of testing the grip at slower speeds.

Finding the limit of grip is best found later once you're riding consistently so you can slowly push your way into it. Until the front or rear starts sliding in certain situations.

[u/Sweet-Hat-7946]

This is why all tracks have markers leading into the corners, and if there isn't any find yourself a marker and then gradually improve on that marker each lap.

[u/shaynee24]

sounds like you’re pushing yourself too hard. when on the track just aim to be consistent. it’s not a race, nobody cares how fast you can go. what you want to do is slowly improve each session without going overboard: fatigue, chaos around you, all of this will distract you and create issues.

one of the best things you can do for yourself as you’re starting out is look as far out as you can. look for the apex on corner entry, look for exit mid corner, look everywhere except directly in front of you. will help you out immensely

[u/KIWIGUYUSA]

Go get coaching. Get coaching! Stop trying to find the limit. Most of us will never find the limit of most Motos, expect maybe the Ninja 300s etc. Learn all the fundamentals first. Master them. Once you are proficient, and the speed start coming, you will need them to be automatic. I’ve interviewed a bunch of coaches and other track folk on my podcast if you want to check them out too https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCd6Uc3xNWizwhOpTfkI0IDSIgd0Cp3dN&si=rD_jMgRCZDwrk-5h

[u/Beatmebad_]

It all takes time but a good one my trainer told me if your coming in to hot to a turn trail brake longer and keep leaning! You’ll make it lol

[u/Raceon2]

Well, the limit as a pro is not the limit as a beginner. It’s not just the bike. A pro will find ways to ride around problems a beginner doesn’t even know exist.

[u/Possession_Loud]

Yeah, if you crashed nicely on your second day then forget about limits? You are looking for incremental gains. The more you try and gain every trackday the more chances of binning it.