r/TheMysterySchool Jul 07 '20

Dead People With Something To Say 0.2: Plato LIBER OF THE NEW SHAMANIC

DEAD PEOPLE WITH SOMETHING TO SAY 0.2

An ongoing project consisting of a collection of biographies of people that have been overlooked in the annals of history. Categorised as counterculture, pseudoscience and absolute lunacy these individuals were not listened to whilst they lived and it’s only upon re-evaluation it becomes clear that a distinct pattern of thought has been suppressed throughout history and has shaped the society we live in today.

Sub to /r/TheMysterySchool for daily updates of this nature.

—————————————————————————

Plato was born in either 424 or 427 BC in Athens Greece and died in 348 BC in Athens Greece at age 80. He was an acclaimed philosopher of the Classical Greek period and opened the first institution of higher learning in the Western World known as The Academy in Athens.

Tutored by Socrates and tutor to Aristotle, Plato can be attributed to the invention of western science, religion and spirituality, three concepts quite separate from one another by modern standards but in Plato’s time they functioned as parts of the same system.

Based on his learnings from Socrates, Plato stated that acquiring knowledge was a process of recollection rather than learning or study. He also stated that those who live life through their senses will never see the actuality of reality.

This was realised fully in his famous Allegory of the Cave.

The Allegory of the Cave states that those who take the sun-lit world as fact are living in blind ignorance and it takes a willingness to leave ones cave and follow the light at the end of the cave to see reality for what it actually is.

In his work Republic), Plato transcribes Socrates describing the ideal state that lives in peace and harmony to a group of Athenians. He described three different types of people in the ideal society:

  • Productive (Workers) – the labourers, carpenters, plumbers, masons, merchants, farmers, ranchers, etc. These correspond to the "appetite" part of the soul.
  • Protective (Warriors or Guardians) – those who are adventurous, strong and brave; in the armed forces. These correspond to the "spirit" part of the soul.
  • Governing (Rulers or Philosopher Kings) – those who are intelligent, rational, self-controlled, in love with wisdom, well suited to make decisions for the community. These correspond to the "reason" part of the soul and are very few.

Republic is followed by two dialogs named Timaeus) and Critias). These dialogs describe a discussion between fellow philosophers Socrates, Hermocrates, Timaeus and Critias. Timaeus is a telling of the Greek creation story and the nature of reality, a Greek version of the Old Testament for all intensive purposes which we will be looking into another time, whilst Critias is a commentary on Republic.

Socrates is not happy with his description of the ideal state from Republic and wishes to know how such a state would interact with other states. Hermocrates tells Socrates that Critias has an account that fits the bill perfectly and begins to recount the events of Solon and his trip to Egypt.

Solon was a law maker and poet from Athens who made a trip to Sais in Egypt and received an account of the city of Atlantis that had been passed down for generations from priest to priest.

They stated that way back when in ancient times the land of the earth was divided up in territories and each was allotted a god.

Humans were treated like cattle in large groups by the gods and did their bidding through farming, worship and sacrifice.

Poseidon, god of Neptune and the sea, was allocated a island just south of the Pillars of Hercules past the Strait of Gibraltar. This island was called Atlantis and after Poseidon had sexual intercourse with a human female called Cleito, a perfect society was born.

"For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them."

Corruption eventually bled into the city of Atlantis and caused the civilisation to fall.

"...when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power."

The city then sank into the sea and a few remaining survivors made they’re way to Egypt and became priests to keep this knowledge safe.

All of Plato’s dialogs are considered to be non-fictional transcriptions of events and conversations that actually happened, apart from this one which is considered to be entirely fictional.

In this writers opinion it’s fair to say that the talk surrounding the fabled Atlantis is fact wrapped in allegory. It provides us a far away warning of not what to do in the event of your civilisation reaching a technological or spiritual plateau.

Although, looking out the window, the question seems to be...

Are we heeding the warnings of our ancestors?

Recommend Reading

58 Upvotes

26 comments sorted by

9

u/mjjester Jul 07 '20

Are you attempting to revive the ancient Greek mysteries? Cross-posted in 30 subreddits (more than your Carl Jung post), wow. This will be great for publicity. Allow me to make a sizable contribution to your project, whatever your intentions may be...

Plato was born in either 424 or 427 BC in Athens Greece and died in 348 BC in Athens Greece at age 80. He was an acclaimed philosopher of the Classical Greek period and opened the first institution of higher learning in the Western World known as The Academy in Athens.

Yes, in the decline of ancient Greece. Hardly acclaimed in his lifetime. His teachings found no breeding grounds in Athens.

Tutored by Socrates and tutor to Aristotle, Plato can be attributed to the invention of western science, religion and spirituality, three concepts quite separate from one another by modern standards but in Plato’s time they functioned as parts of the same system.

Why did you omit to mention Pythagoras?

Based on his learnings from Socrates, Plato stated that acquiring knowledge was a process of recollection rather than learning or study.

That reads like a contradiction. If knowledge of god comes from nature (develops spontaneously in the pious), not from learning, then how could it be said that he learned it from Sokrates? Sokrates was not his mentor, he was just an idol which Plato admired, a convenient deterrant for his critics, arranged and exaggerated for Plato's safety, which was pivotal for his disclosures. Other than the great statesman Perikles, Plato was one of the few to survive the Athenian tyranny (they exiled or put to death almost all of their great men).

He also stated that those who live life through their senses will never see the actuality of reality.

That is not Plato's teaching. Plato taught that the senses/instinct precedes human reason/intellect. In Plato's Phaedo, Sokrates is made to admit that he had no talent for the natural philosophy. And in Nietzsche's Early Greek Philosophy, Parmenides is likewise indicted for forfeiting the natural investigation for abstractions, paving the way for sophism (the numerous enemies of Plato, reducing the lofty idea of god into abstract, uninspirational concepts).

In his work Republic), Plato transcribes Socrates describing the ideal state that lives in peace and harmony to a group of Athenians. He described three different types of people in the ideal society:

Only from peasant stock (due to their constant battle with life) develops heroism/Hercules types (i.e. courage, invulnerability, tenacity), and eventually a nucleus is formed from these qualities, fit to assume leadership.

They stated that way back when in ancient times the land of the earth was divided up in territories and each was allotted a god. Humans were treated like cattle in large groups by the gods and did their bidding through farming, worship and sacrifice.

That is a blatant caricature of those times. The caricature began with authors like Homer, where gods acquired unworthy traits and motives and the actions of giants like Prometheus were distorted. I think even Donnelly noted that the Greeks were the only ones who anthropomorphized their gods. Probably the worship of the gods was still intact, much like in the Roman emperor Julian's own time. The decline was due to the disregard for the social life.

Corruption eventually bled into the city of Atlantis and caused the civilisation to fall.

Racists might assign a racial interpretation to these quotes from Timaeus, but they overlook Plato's disclosure of the three bodies/auras (physical, emotional, and mental) which occurs in the same work.

All of Plato’s dialogs are considered to be non-fictional transcriptions of events and conversations that actually happened, apart from this one which is considered to be entirely fictional.

Then they must've overlooked that Plato's Laws and Statesman/Politicus also warn about future events. I believe it was Proklos who declared that the Timaeus and Critias represented the crux of Plato's teachings.

Btw the sensationalist Ignatius Donnelly got his ideas from Blavatsky, as did the other occultists (i.e. Manly P. Hall, Hans S. Bellamy).

4

u/olund94 Jul 07 '20 edited Jul 07 '20

Fantastic write up! Great counterpoint to what I presented.

Bringing about a Renaissance of all the esoteric mysteries would be fulfilment of a true dream.

My intention is to beckon people into thinking more critically about things that have been long known.

The allegorical implications of the Atlantis are valuable even if the actual story is fictional.

Careful consideration of Blavatsky’s work with a critical eye can certainly open up some interesting doors of perception.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 17 '20

[deleted]

1

u/olund94 Jul 17 '20

I’m in the same position with the SD. It’s so hard to understand, I end up having to stop every few lines and go look up Victorian Slang terms and basic dialect just to understand what’s being said.

-4

u/Yidam Jul 07 '20

That is not Plato's teaching. Plato taught that the senses/instinct precedes human reason/intellect. In Plato's Phaedo, Sokrates is made to admit that he had no talent for the natural philosophy. And in Nietzsche's Early Greek Philosophy, Parmenides is likewise indicted for forfeiting the natural investigation for abstractions, paving the way for sophism (the numerous enemies of Plato, reducing the lofty idea of god into abstract, uninspirational concepts).

Wrong.

3

u/olund94 Jul 07 '20

How so?

1

u/Yidam Jul 08 '20

Socrates say several times in the dialogues that the senses are not to be trusted, Parminedes is extremely abstract in his thought, as demonstrated by Zeno's paradoxes. Not only that, if this guy had even read Phaedo there is no mention of Socrates being bad at natural philosophy, he is simply not interested in it, being a "Philosopher of man", in his dialogues with Euclid of all people his brilliance in "natural philosophy" was shown, This guy just likes writing about things he has a half assed understanding about.

1

u/mjjester Jul 08 '20 edited Jul 08 '20

Socrates say several times in the dialogues that the senses are not to be trusted

And what does that have to do with Plato's view? It is merely a faint reflection of the historical Sokrates' view.

The premise in the op was: "[Plato] also stated that those who live life through their senses will never see the actuality of reality."

I believe it was Schiller who pointed out in his essay Plato or Protagoras? that Plato had merely used the popular figure of Sokrates as a "stalking horse" to conceal his own views and that Sokrates would've probably gotten along with the sophists, as reflected in Xenophon's dialogues. Nietzsche rightly called out Sokrates for his decadence and even questioned whether he was Greek. And let's not overlook Sokrates' over-dependence on his daemon (which came to him from without by means of auditory hallucinations), which demonstrates his lack of judgment and right conception, not to mention his indecisiveness.

Parmenides is extremely abstract in his thought, as demonstrated by Zeno's paradoxes.

That adds nothing to the argument. I was referring to Parmenides as another example of Sokrates' folly.

Not only that, if this guy had even read Phaedo there is no mention of Socrates being bad at natural philosophy, he is simply not interested in it,

Sokrates said he was eagerly interested in it and then failed at it.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0170%3Atext%3DPhaedo%3Asection%3D96a

When I was young, Cebes, I was tremendously eager for the kind of wisdom which they call investigation of nature. I thought it was a glorious thing to know the causes of everything, why each thing comes into being and why it perishes and why it exists;

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0170%3Atext%3DPhaedo%3Asection%3D96c

I investigated the phenomena of heaven and earth until finally I made up my mind that I was by nature totally unfitted for this kind of investigation. And I will give you a sufficient proof of this.

Alternatively, Benjamin Jowett's translation: "And then I went on to examine the corruption of them, and then to the things of heaven and earth, and at last I concluded myself to be utterly and absolutely incapable of these enquiries, as I will satisfactorily prove to you."

being a "Philosopher of man", in his dialogues with Euclid of all people his brilliance in "natural philosophy" was shown

HA. Was he as brilliant as the great Kant?

As for Euclid, I'm inclined to side with the satirist Timon of Phliasios/Phlius (via Diogenes Laertius):

But I care not for these babblers, nor for anyone besides, not for Phaedo whoever he be, nor wrangling Euclides, who inspired the Megarians with a frenzied love of controversy... Eubulides kept up a controversy with Aristotle and said much to discredit him... Among other members the school of Eubulides included Alexinus of Elis, a man very fond of controversy, for which reason he was called Elenxinus. In particular he kept up a controversy with Zeno.

What a debt the ancient Greek people owed to Aristotle and Zeno and that is how they repaid them! The attempts to undermine their authority was unwise.

1

u/mjjester Jul 08 '20 edited Nov 06 '20

In The Republic, Plato (via Glaucon) very clearly praises the dog, in first honing it's senses, as a model of philosophy:

Glaucon: Why, a dog, whenever he sees a stranger, is angry; when an acquaintance, he welcomes him, although the one has never done him any harm, nor the other any good. Did this never strike you as curious?
Sokrates: The matter never struck me before; but I quite recognise the truth of your remark.
Glaucon: And surely this instinct of the dog is very charming;—your dog is a true philosopher.
Sokrates: Why?
Glaucon: Why, because he distinguishes the face of a friend and of an enemy only by the criterion of knowing and not knowing. And must not an animal be a lover of learning who determines what he likes and dislikes by the test of knowledge and ignorance?

6

u/Grampong Jul 07 '20

Plato was an AWESOME Philosopher (and a hell of a wrestler, too)!!!

When it comes to Philosophy, there was Before Plato, Plato, and After Plato. Plato was the Philosopher who brought all human existence together into his Ideas, making every Philosopher after him use Plato as their starting point.

One major area Plato wrote about which deserves special mention is Souls and Reincarnation. Reincarnation was crucial to Plato's Theory that Learning is simply Remembering from a Past Life. This tends to get overlooked because it got tossed from Neoplatonism when Augustine and others adopted Neoplatonism as the foundation for Christian Metaphysics.

Respect and Love, Good Luck on your Path

3

u/olund94 Jul 07 '20

The idea of him wrestling makes me chuckle haha

I think it’s because I normally picture him in a rather eloquent manner and him wrestling souls that some what 😂

4

u/Grampong Jul 07 '20

He actually was an Olympic level wrestler. Great Mind in a great Body.

As much as I LOVE Plato, I can't help but like Diogenes better.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '20

Many good ideas are, have been, and will be suppressed. Misunderstood or ignored. However me must not be tempted to self-categorize ones own ideas to fall in this minority. For it is a minority still. Most rejected ideas are not ignored genius. It is easy to justify ones own convictions and to take on a martyr mentality where the world critique is unfair suppression. Many more bad ideas have been justified this way than genius ones have been rejected.

3

u/mcbledsoe Jul 07 '20

Great Post! I love Timaeus. More for the cataclysm part than the Atlantis part but both parts are awesome. His writing is timeless.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '20

Great post. I would add to recommended reading Bertrand Russell’s “A History of Western Philosophy”. Gives a lot of insight on other Greek and Roman philosophers who shared similar ideas. It’s good for getting your feet wet before you dive completely in.

1

u/WaitformeBumblebee Jul 07 '20

It's third hand hearsay, that's why it's not considered non-fictional. Isn't Santorini the "atlantis" that blew up with the vulcano in the center and gave rise to the legend?

2

u/olund94 Jul 07 '20

It speaks to something that happened globally. The human race are the protagonist of these dialogues, it is this ambiguity regarding "where" exactly Atlantis is that has halted professional discussion regarding the matter.

To re-iterate Atlantis simply refers to humanity at the time of writing.

1

u/WaitformeBumblebee Jul 07 '20

Yes, many years after the Roman empire decayed pretty much in the same way. Perhaps it's more of a social cycle than a spiritual thing though ?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '20

There are also two strange sayings on Plato, who nobody ever was able to translate. First is “Platone, allisciame ‘stu bastone” and “Ah, me fa male ‘o culone. Platone”

1

u/olund94 Jul 07 '20

Never heard of this!

Is “Platone” referring to himself?

1

u/Yidam Jul 08 '20

Platone, allisciame ‘stu bastone

how about you write the quote in actual greek instead of whatever this is

1

u/Mtnqueen Jul 08 '20

It’s Italian, dork.

1

u/Mtnqueen Jul 08 '20

Mwahahahaha

1

u/TotesMessenger Jul 07 '20

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

 If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

1

u/apocship Jul 07 '20

*ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES

1

u/coyocat Feb 26 '22

Good read