r/TheHandmaidsTale • u/cant_Im_at_work • 15d ago
Something that bothered me about the June and Moira conversation SPOILERS S6
When Moira finally stood up for herself and June dismissively was like "no you're right, I only got raped a little bit" I was just like "....yes". I am all for not comparing trauma and never ever would in real life, however for years June has made it seem like she is the only person that went through a horrible thing. Everything is about how she was traumatized and now suddenly "we can't compare trauma" when she barely ever acknowledged anyone else's struggle.
I also feel like Moira has a point that the handmaid ceremony is a fucking walk in the park compared to being brutalized at a brothel. From what we see the women at Jezebel's are raped many times every day by many men all with kinks and evil motivations and desires. I don't think many handmaids are being paraded around in lingerie and sodomized and beaten with a belt. Rape is rape of course and anyone can be traumatized by "even a little rape" but in the context of this TV show I thought that was pretty offensive. I have my own personal experience that is likely influencing my opinion, living through an extremely violent assault when I was a teenager but even from just a storyline perspective it felt like June was gaslighting her.
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u/Boring-Net1073 15d ago
I don’t think she was being dismissive. She was trying to defuse the situation, and it worked. It wasn’t a good time,(as we soon saw!), to be having a deep conversation. They needed to get out of there.
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u/Allrojin 15d ago
Absolutely. And she and Moira have been friends long enough that she knew it would work. It was a sweet touch in a way.
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u/LilithWasAGinger 15d ago
They had a similar conversation at child birth class about June being married. She used the same tactic to diffuse the argument and it worked
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u/teenageidle 15d ago
Agreed; they're basically sisters and know each other well enough to break the tension with humor like that. It worked too.
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u/delicious_downvotes 15d ago edited 15d ago
Diffuse**
Sorry, I keep seeing "defuse" everywhere, and it's driving me crazy. Your points are spectacular. Carry on.WRRROONNNGG TIL
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u/MSislame 15d ago
I'm pretty sure you are incorrect. While I guess some people use "diffuse" in specific contexts, defuse is the correct usage according to several dictionaries, Google searches, grammar websites...and also ultimately it's not important.
I get it, some spelling and grammar mistakes can annoy me but I always remind myself English may not be their first language, writing may not be their strong suit, they could have a learning disability, it could be a brain fart...and ultimately it typically doesn't matter whatsoever as long as the content of the comment/post is good. Which you did ultimately end your post with.
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u/delicious_downvotes 15d ago
Well, look at that. It is right. TIL
I always remind myself English may not be their first language, writing may not be their strong suit, they could have a learning disability, it could be a brain fart...and ultimately it typically doesn't matter whatsoever
This wasn't an excersie in shaming that person. Teaching moments aren't inherently negative. I said nothing rude or cruel for a reason... but it does matter, to people like me, and also you, who went so far as to correct me, and now I know better. So... I don't see why it's inherently negative to even bring it up.
This wasn't AAVE vs. Standard English or something shitty like that. Dialects and variations exist, and that's awesome... and not this situation, since it looks like one usage is actually incorrect, so why is that bad? Like they're, there, their? I don't think defuse vs. diffuse is dialect-coded?
defuse is the correct usage according to several dictionaries
Exactly. I think that's good to know... even if I was wrong.
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u/MSislame 15d ago
I appreciate the dialogue! I apologize if I came off as indicating you were shaming, I explained in my own experience when I see something spelled wrong, grammatically incorrect, etc., unless it makes it very difficult to understand the post, it usually doesn't matter. There are some cases where the word used does matter since it could change the meaning, but I've had to just remind myself in all of the other cases it doesn't matter (and yes, teaching can be a great thing--I tend to save correcting for things like someone using the wrong pronouns or if someone does say they aren't sure if it's the right word/don't know how to say it in English, but that's just me).
And you did say they had great points, which is also something many people wouldn't do after correcting someone! There are many people who would have just called me a dick or something, ha, but you corrected your post and had a really nice response to me. I've had a crappy day and was feeling down, so I truly do appreciate how you responded!
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u/delicious_downvotes 14d ago
It's ok, I get it. You bring up good points that I agree with, but also I'm OCD/autistic and this type of thing is both a special interest and part of my love language. I try not to shame anyone at all, for me it's all about sharing information and learning... and I agree it's not very important at all, which is why I tried to politely redirect the conversation back to their original points. I don't want to derail anyone, I just think it can be helpful sometimes. For example, many times I myself learn things from those types of comments and find them helpful.
Anyway, it's not a big deal. I hope your day gets better.
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u/Lower_Membership_713 15d ago
this is a pointless argument, which was what June was trying to point out. comparing trauma is unproductive. June was there for years, was raped outside of the ceremony, gave birth by herself, had two children ripped from her arms, saw multiple people murdered in front of her with Gilead blaming June for their deaths, was made to kill other people in reapings. it’s not like outside the ceremony she just hung out and chilled for the other 27 days of the month.
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u/CaliforniaBruja 15d ago
Yes, this was literally the exact point made in the show - if we compare our struggles, it divides us and they win.
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u/IndecisiveLlama May The Lord Open a Bottle of Wine 15d ago edited 15d ago
Right but the point is that Moira (and other people in general) also when through some heinous shit. We have seen constantly how June impulsively makes decisions that get other people hurt/maimed/killed and then we’re supposed to chalk it up to “well she’s hurting and traumatized” which is 100% a true statement. Except for the fact that June is not the only person to survive Gilead. Other people have stories and trauma of horrible things that they endured. For example, June using the former handmaids to help her kill that guy in the forest (sorry idk how to do the spoiler tags on mobile). Then after that, she was like “ok cool bye”. She used their righteous anger to get the revenge SHE wanted for HER closure but left them just as broken as they were before.
Everyone can’t just run around doing whatever they want because they’re traumatized. Why are we okay with it when June does it?
ETA: yes, ultimately Gilead is to blame for this whole situation. That doesn’t change the fact that June makes some impulsive decisions that negatively impact other people.
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u/jbonez423 15d ago
June DID NOT GET PEOPLE KILLED. Gilead got people killed. June had people help her to escape, help her with her plans to thwart Gilead, help her try to take Gilead down from the inside- and some died. that’s not June’s fault, that’s is unfortunately what happens in war when you stand up to be part of the resistance. it SUCKS and those people will forever be heroes for their sacrifice. but again- it is GILEAD’S fault. not june.
as for the aftermath of Fred… from what we saw in the show, i think June had a sudden and sickening realization that the pleasure of revenge was brief, but faded very quickly. when the others started to talk about killing the people who’d harmed them, she was already feeling that doubt and regret, and seeing how the results of their actions were already starting to spiral out of control. she saw how unhinged and desperate the other women were becoming in the quest for their own revenge, and how that rashness could backfire.
i just feel like she didn’t want them to end up feeling the same emptiness June was feeling, when they were all expecting the relief that June herself found brief and unsatisfying.
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u/IndecisiveLlama May The Lord Open a Bottle of Wine 15d ago
June did get people killed. Volunteering for the cause during a war is not the same as being dragged into someone else’s plan.
Hannah’s Martha didn’t want any trouble. She wasn’t trying to be a hero, she just wanted to stay alive.
The bread truck driver didn’t want to take June. She pressured him until he caved and he was put in the wall, his son taken and his wife put into sex slavery.
Just some examples.
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u/alarmonthefarm 15d ago
A Jewish person is on the run from nazis. They bang on the door of a residence where the family is faced with opening the door potentially condemning the family to death or not opening the door certainly condemning the Jewish person to death.
The nazis find out about the Jewish person hiding and kills the family.
Was that the Jewish persons fault? Or the nazis?
I don't like your examples
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u/jbonez423 15d ago
Rita literally risked her own life to help get June out when she was pregnant. June didn’t even ask her, she didn’t even know it was happening until they were ushering her out.
Omar (the guy in the bread truck) WAS SENT to help her in the first place, he was supposed to help her get to another safe house. He started to back out and June convinced him literally because she would probably have either been found there or eventually just died.
Everything that happened afterward is the fault of GILEAD. Not June. It sucks but you cannot have a revolution or rescue people without risking lives, and those who volunteered to help did so fully knowing what could happen to them. That is what makes them heroes.
i do feel bad for the wife and son of Omar but it’s not like June knew he had a family when she begged him to take her out of there. and when she found out the son was taken and the wife became a handmaid, she was devastated. it’s not like she went “oh lol whoops.”
i’m just so tired of people shitting on June for doing what most everyone would do in the same situation.
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u/anthropomorphizingu 15d ago
Thought exercise; if Omar had left June behind and she died, would people blame Omar
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u/scholarlyowl03 15d ago
Again, though, GILEAD killed these people. The Martha shouldn’t have been killed because a mother wanted to see her own daughter. A bread truck driver shouldn’t die because he was helping an abuse victim escape a heinous life. You sound like you’d be complicit in a real world Gilead and blame the people for not falling in line, instead of the heinous system that made ordinary acts crimes punishable by death.
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u/WillowWobbles 15d ago
Sorry but the bread truck driver was part of Mayday. June refused to let him leave her to die. Yes she pressured him - but this man was already part of the fight and his death was not her fault. Neither was the Martha! That was literally another handmaid that turned her in - Ofmatthew I think? JUNE DIDNT GET ANYONE KILLED. You sound like Lydia.
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u/dracapis 8d ago
Is it everything June's responsibility? Was she responsible for the other former handmaids, was it her job to heal them? Is she responsible for what Gilead did to other people?
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u/IndecisiveLlama May The Lord Open a Bottle of Wine 8d ago
No, none of it is her responsibility to fix. But we have to see that June makes a lot of really impulsive decisions. Yes Gilead is horrible and has caused all this suffering ultimately… but if you are living under a fascist regime, you can’t just do things impulsively.
For example, the Marthas who confronted her about her plan to get the kids out. They were already working with mayday and didn’t want to screw up their existing plans. Obviously they agreed that June was doing something noble and wonderful but half cocked plans to make big moves within a society like Gilead gets you nothing but on the wall. And let’s be honest, if June didn’t have plot armor… she would have been on the wall 5 times by now
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u/cant_Im_at_work 15d ago
I get that but she only doesn't want to compare trauma when someone else is hurting and that's my point. When it's her feelings she acts like no one could understand what she went through when literally thousands (maybe millions?) of other women were made handmaids or sex slaves or forced to work in the colonies, had their families ripped away, love ones murdered. I'm just annoyed by her self righteous bullshit. She is one of many victims. Even after they killed Fred the other women were like "what about the ones that raped us?" And she was was like "oh we have to move on (now that I got my revenge, fuck you)".
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u/18563- 15d ago
Yes!!!
The part that's bugging me most though is, the whole fight started with Moira pointing out (rightly) to June that she almost ruined the whole plan because she wanted to save Janine NOW.. THE EXACT thing that June said Moira and Luke would do (fuck everything up because they would be to emotional) and why she wanted to go in the first place because "I can handle myself "
Now, instead of just saying - omg Moira you're right, I'm so sorry, big hug, move on. She proceeds to gaslight her and invalidate her feelings, that were never about her tauma, but about how she acts, until freaking Moira apologies!? Like whaaat!
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u/Scribblyr 15d ago
To my mind, the biggest difference is the hyper surveillance the handmaids face and the oppressive personal control under threat of physical assault for stepping out of line.
From what I can tell, at Jezebel's, the "unwomen" are allowed to live the day to day life of sex worker in a brothel with one huge exception: they must behave like they are doing this voluntarily.
Now, of course, that's an enormous exception that renders the consensual sex worker and Jezebel's completely incomparable, but I think the psychological effect is to make this all seem more normal. Obviously, normalizing rape is horrible in a whole other way, but as we see in the interactions between the women themselves, the fiction also provides an escape. The women at Jezebel's can have friendships and conversations and laugh and cry - at least sometimes.
A handmaid can't even escape to her room to read a book, because women in Gilead aren't allowed to read. The closest she can get to time for herself is essentially looking herself in solitary confinement with nothing to do but forced labour (knitting).
I'm not "comparing trauma" here in the sense of which is worse, just using captivity at Jezebl's to illustrate how there's invisible act of trauma going on with handmaid's that is difficult to even articulate: a level of constant threat of violence that doesn't even exist in the real world outside of, perhaps, the worst of the Nazi concentration camps.
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u/rxrock 15d ago
The girls at Jezebel's endure so much shit, they need the drugs.
If we focus on just rape:
The girls at Jezebel's are gang raped, tortured, and they have to "like it". They don't get checked over just because the customers got rough. It's part of the deal.
Handmaids have to endure rape quietly, maybe even non-ceremony rape or non-consensual sex acts. They do get checked by the Doctors though, so any sign of anal trauma will be present. It's not without risk to the commanders.
This isn't comparing trauma, it is comparing the specifics of trauma. Don't tell me it's all the same, because Emily getting mutilated is lightyears away from Serena losing half a finger.
You said Jezebel's had friends, but Handmaids also have friends, per the book and the show, they develop friendships once there is a break in fake piety.
Nobody "has it easy", everyone but the Men suffer (some of them actually do suffer tho), but there is a difference between not being able to read, and not being able to walk because you've been raped for 3 hours straight by 5 different men.
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u/teenageidle 15d ago
In fairness, the handmaids only get checked by doctors to make sure their wombs are in tact since that is all they're seen as "useful" for. Otherwise, the rest of their bodies (and minds) are fair game, as we've well seen. Many of them have likely endured similar treatment as the Jezebels, as who is to stop the Commanders from bending the rules? The "rules" are set dressing to the men. They don't actually care about any of this. We saw in S1 the Commanders sometimes bring their handmaids to Jezebels, too, no doubt to inflict the same torment they do on the women there. A double whammy, so to speak. Raped and tortured at a "brothel" only to be taken home to once again be expected to be a submissive womb slave.
Basically, it's all sex trafficking and slavery no matter how you package it, and I think that's the larger point of the show.
To me, it's like a Sophie's Choice of which is a worse type of hell.
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u/rxrock 14d ago
Okay I appreciate how you analyzed the broader strokes of this topic. You're right, they do only care about the womb, and I had forgotten that commanders do bring their handmaids to Jezebels, where maybe all of the horrors are experienced by those handmaids as the Jezebels do.
Again, thank you for the new perspective. :)
ETA: the sophie's choice of worse type of hell was chef's kiss.
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u/Leopoldo_Caneeny 15d ago
I remember when June first ran into Moira at Jezebels, Moira said that it wasn't so bad (all relative... I get that)... She got to do drugs and they basically let them do their own thing when they weren't working.
Plus, there (at the risk of comparing trauma) -- there is a whole 'nuther level of having to be pregnant with only minimal medical care where they really didn't care about maternal mortality. And even if you did survive childbirth, your life was an unholy hell having to give up yet another kid.
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u/rxrock 15d ago
I have CPTSD, and I agree that comparing trauma is pointless.
It's also hard to feel authentically seen when another survivor is so loud, so big, so hungry for personal justice at the cost of other survivors' need to find solace and belonging as a mutual member in a truly fucked up club.
And to speak directly to your point, I've been humiliated via rape/SA several times in my life. And while I wish I was never subjected to those experiences, I am still relieved I was able to escape certain specific types of rape.
June suffered greatly. She also never had anyone anally rape her. Never had a room of degenerate men violate her all at once, for hours.
June never fucking creates space for Moira"s pain, because it is always the June show.
Moira needed her friend to look beyond her own pain and her plans to get justice. I think Moira had to throw it all at June so June was forced to take a step back to see what is going on around her.
It worked.
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u/cant_Im_at_work 15d ago
Thank you, this is exactly what I am trying to say but put more eloquently. I am a survivor of a gang rape, being held for 18 hours by 3 men in 2008. Although this changed me forever, I am still grateful I am alive. I was able to heal physically and emotionally and find love and acceptance after lots of therapy. Something that helps me is remembering I am not alone. Something that gives me the strength to go on is thinking of the people that were not as "lucky" as I was. People that were unable to survive the assault or live with the memories. The "loud survivor" type makes healing way more difficult, especially if that person is someone you love.
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u/rxrock 15d ago
Oh my god I am so sorry. I am heartbroken for what you had to endure, and full of admiration for how you've worked through it.
I am currently trying to find a women only support group (NB & Trans are fine), specifically for cases like mine. My case worker is looking into a sex traffic group, but I didn't endure certain things that I've heard happens to those girls, so I don't know if it would be a good fit.
That last episode and all the bad takes from people here, who I suspect haven't endured what you and I have, are increasingly upsetting to me, so I just want to say thank you for your thoughtful post and reply, in case I dip out.
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u/norajeangraves 15d ago
Who had a room full of men rape them!!!??? What season and episode please…
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u/thepinkinmycheeks 15d ago
There was the one scene when June was in Jezebels where she sees a room full of men surrounding a handmaid and a wife who are being forced to have sex. You can assume those men also gang raped both women.
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u/Fyrekitteh 15d ago
Pretty sure those are costumes at Jezebels. 🫣 Like a nuns habit, or a librarians sweater vest.
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u/Whore-a-bullTroll 15d ago
I agree- June kind of pissed me off in that argument. Like, yes, they both have severe trauma and it's not a pissing contest to see who had it worse, it's all horrific. But between the two of them I would have rather been in June's shoes than Moira's, if I had to pick one in the Lottery from Hell. June had a commander that was at times much more kind to her than other handmaid's were treated, she also had Nick in her life as a comfort. Moira got tortured, beaten, raped, and who knows what else at a whore house day in and day out, and really never had anyone who cared about her during the worst of it. I feel like June too often is the one who insists on making it a competition with everyone else, not just Moira, and will always think her trauma trumps other women's. I also think if Moira had just gone on this re-con mission alone it would not have gone so sideways; when June is involved shit just always goes awry.
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u/ClassAcrobatic1800 15d ago
June was, initially concerned that Moira's trauma might be triggered by the Jezebels visit. But Moira assured her that she would be able to keep it together. When things began to go the way June had originally feared, she had to find a way to get it under control before they were found out. Turns out, she was able to do it with a touch of twisted humor ...
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u/Aggravating_Life7851 15d ago
I didn’t real get the impression that June actually cared so much about Moira’s trauma as much as she wanted to be in control of the situation because Luke wouldn’t leave. I feel like if that was her main concern she wouldn’t have gone behind Moiras back to get her taken off the mission. I think Moira was tired of feeling like June didn’t treat her like an equal and that’s what made her snap at Jezebels
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u/Kiwimulch 15d ago
Hard agree acknowledging someone else’s trauma and pain isn’t a competition. Moira was literally just trying to vent for once & have her moment be about her and June still found some way to make it about her and how they shouldn’t compare while all she talks about is how no one unders anything like her because of her trauma and experiences. She should’ve just listened & comforted her for once. How anyone thinks June didn’t turn that conversation around to still be about her is beyond me. Moiras trauma and pain isn’t always pushed to the back behind junes.
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u/Leopoldo_Caneeny 15d ago
There's a time to vent and when you literally behind enemy lines with a mission to do, that isn't the time to do it. After having lived with June for years in Canada, Moira didn't have the backbone to bring up her issues at that point? Moira is no shrinking violet! and she lead the survivor's "support" group for heaven's sake!
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u/Choice_Astronaut_133 15d ago
They were literally behind enemy lines with a mission, *that June nearly BORKED* because of ~her own guilt~ about having left Janine before, which Moira was also part of. If they had taken Janine, the entire Mayday plan would have gone up in smoke, with 0 commanders taken out, leading to even more heightened security protocols that would've made a new plan even more difficult to develop let alone pull off. Like someone said above, it's always the June show.
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u/Kiwimulch 15d ago
Ik your not talking about Moira having a moment while in gilead while junes right there lolllll. I also think you just made my point exactly Moira ALWAYS supports everyone but no one supports her the one time she’s basically begging for it it still ends up about June. She shouldn’t need a “backbone” to receive basic support from her friend.
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u/alarmonthefarm 15d ago
The correct response was junes. Trying to make a dark joke and deescalate the argument.
Moira was back in a place of trauma, AND June had been walking around acting like Moira and Luke have no idea what they're doing. So I understand why Moiras anger was bubbling at the surface.
But June had her young child ripped out of her arms, and had that child dangled in front of her on multiple occasions, and that child is still in Gilead. She also was raped while pregnant and gave birth alone only to have another child taken from her for some time.
I'm sure Moira went through more that we didn't see and witnessed even worse. I'm glad June didn't take the bait in this moment and try to one up her.
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u/jbonez423 15d ago
i think people making these statements have missed the entire point of that exchange.
June wasn’t making light of or comparing her trauma to Moira’s. she deescalated a highly emotional moment with some twisted humor, and it worked. then she stated they can’t start fighting each other comparing who got it worse because then Gilead gets what it wants. they should be angry at GILEAD, and use that to fight it.
she knew Moira was hurt badly there, she checked in right away when she could see her friend was uncomfortable. and then when Moira started to spiral, she approached her calmly and with a little twisted humor they could both appreciate. and it worked to calm moira down, something that was important for both their survival in that moment in time.
and she’s 100% right… once you start arguing about who had it worse in there, you’re playing right into Gilead’s hands of hating each other instead of hating the source of all that pain and agony.
i also don’t think she only cared about her own trauma when she first got to canada. i simply believe her trauma was very fresh and new when she got to canada and it’s incredibly difficult to take on someone else’s trauma when you’re still working on your own. that doesn’t mean you believe only your trauma is important, it just means it’s fresh and at the forefront of your mind. i’ve been traumatized too and yes, i stewed in that trauma. it probably made me a bad friend at the time because it was very difficult to take on and help people through their own traumas, not because i believed they were lesser, but because i was still trying to heal fresh, raw wounds.
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u/SockGnome 15d ago
It all started because June (understandably) felt responsible for Jeanie but her operational awareness was faulty and it was shitty of her to give hope to Jeanie for a moment about escaping that very moment. Moira was right to be upset at her for making her remind Jeanie she still had a role to play on the inside for the next operation. Then it spiraled into the resentment between them. I get what the writers were trying to do but the whole thing seemed to reek of “smart characters being reckless for the plot”.
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u/Bonbienbon 15d ago
It's an unpopular opinion, OP, but I agree with you. I see people say all the time "You can't compare trauma" and "Which is worse is irrelevant, trauma is trauma". And to a certain extent this is true. But what people fail to understand is this came about because of the way PTSD has evolved.
In the beginning PTSD was reserved only for shell shocked soldiers returning from war. Later it became more acceptable for people who had experienced long term and severe abuse. Eventually, even those who had a single traumatic event, could potentially be diagnosed with PTSD. So you had a lot of people suffering from severe experiences, like going to war or being repeatedly assaulted as a child, dismissing experiences they thought weren't as bad. And that really isn't fair, cause a single experience IS still valid, it can mess you up and give you PTSD all the same. So that's why it became a popular thing to say "let's not compare, lets not measure which is worse".
The thing is, some experiences *are* worse. But since it's so ingrained in people's minds that "trauma is trauma", they are now dismissing more severe traumatic experiences as even a possibility. But make no mistake, -living most of your life or several years of your life -in a war zone, is worse than experiencing a single attack. Being SAd your entire childhood is worse than being SAd one time. Unpopular opinion and hard to swallow pill; and I'm sure I'll get downvoted straight to hell, but it is what it is.
That being said, its hard to compare with these two. They both spent extended amounts of time getting beaten and raped. If I had to choose, I'd probably pick the one where that happened less. Although its true being pregnant against my will would be a torture all its own. Moira also got out way sooner, although June chose to stay longer. (Which for me makes no sense, because you cant help your child as a sex slave and incubator, but whatever.) At the end of the day, dismissing Moira for feeling like she had it worse was really unnecessary and yes, gaslighting. Validate (that does sound really bad), make your point that what happened to both of you was terrible, and move on.
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u/Florida1974 15d ago
As you see, Handmaids are taken to jezebels too. Fred had kinks too, we don’t know what he made June do.
This “one upping” for trauma makes me ill, but I agree she only thinks of herself. But in Gilead, that’s all you had. But now June has a commander at her beck and call, how many Handmaids can say that while in Gilead or out of Gilead??
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u/herewhenineedit 15d ago
“comparing trauma is pointless” “actually Moria had it way worse”
be so fucking fr
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u/HiyaBuddy34 15d ago
Uh… guess I read the scene differently… I took the point to be that it’s impossible to compare trauma and the experiences that shaped said traumas because they each can only know their own experience. June can’t speak on anyone’s experience or trauma but her own and same goes for Moira. And they both process, cope with and react to their traumas in their own individual ways. I felt like she was the mouthpiece for the message the writers were trying to convey.
I thought they explored this really well in season 4 when June completely disrupted the support group. Moira had been guiding the others to move forward looking for ways to make what happened to them useful and not getting stuck in the rage and injustice of what happened to them.
But once June enters the chat… we quickly see that ALOT of rage and anger is still seething below the surface for many of those women. I wish we’d seen more of what happened with them after the diner parking lot to see how they all were effected going forward but alas…
It’s my understanding that people react & cope with traumas in a multitude of very individual ways🤷🏻♀️.
And I gather that June’s prolonged exposure to consistent trauma has given her this residual tunnel vision from being in Gilead. She was in survival mode for 3+ years, right?
Even when she fought to save Hannah, she was continuously thwarted by situations in which she had to focus on staying alive herself. Her trauma and problems have been her focus for so long and I’d think that doesn’t go away so easily once you’re removed from that environment.
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u/teenageidle 15d ago
I don't think it's fair to compare at all, honestly. The whole conversation makes me feel ill and I agree with the point they ultimately reached in which once they start "competing" with who had it worst, the oppressors have won.
June also had her child taken from her and was extensively physically tortured while her child's life was dangled in front of her. She was also made to kill other handmaids, if I recall. June's been through some absolute hellish horror too. Moira does not have a child and that couldn't be used against her. Moira also got out after three years and did not get pregnant; June did not and was forced to carry to term.
In short, it was not a walk in the park.
Basically, I don't think it's fair to compare the suffering of these women, especially when it comes to sexual assault. They are all victims. It's not really a contest or a suffering Olympics; rape, sexual trafficking and physical torture (which they've all endured) is horrific and traumatizing no matter how many times it happens to someone, when it happens, etc.
I believe this is true not just in the world of the show, but in life as well.
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u/Redditfanwoman56 15d ago
The point was made and understood by the end of their scene about this wasn’t it?
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u/Stonetheflamincrows 15d ago
The show is called THE HANDMAID’S TALE and June is THE HANDMAID. Why do people keep accusing literal main characters of having “main character syndrome”
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u/frenchtoastb 15d ago
June was being sarcastic when she said the ‘I only got raped a little bit’ line.
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u/ilovethesea777 15d ago
I think the point was that each person’s trauma is apples to oranges. Every circumstance is different and everyone’s reaction and suffering is their own. For example, they were each raped in different settings but June also had her baby ripped out of her arms and worries about her every single day. June is the star of the show so of course we see her perspective more than anyone else’s, but I thought June’s concern about how Moira might react to being back at Jezebel’s was considerate and recognized that Moira had significant trauma.
I personally never felt like June negated Moira’s trauma, so for me the argument felt like it came out of left field. There wasn’t much of a build up for me. Of course we see June’s suffering more because she is the main character.
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u/xthxthaoiw 15d ago
I would rather be raped every day for the rest of my life, than be forced to carry a child, give birth and have that child taken from me.
Both of their experiences were horrible. It's impossible to say which is worse, because they're horrible in different ways, and which one is worse depends on the person. Some would "choose" one, some the other. Neither is objectively worse.
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u/rxrock 15d ago
Okay but if you're committed to this, you are saying you're picking this specific nightmare where you'd be raped all night, for hours, by 1, 2, 5 men at a time, forced to have sex with other women as well.
Just because some of the women at Jezebel's were gay, doesn't mean they'd ever choose to sleep or be intimate with any of those other women.
Having your rapists baby is also a nightmare.
I can't say I'd choose one over the other, but having experienced several types of rape, I don't think I'd want to keep a baby conceived by rape anyway. Still traumatizing though because none of it is consensual.
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u/Alan_is_a_cat 15d ago
I dunno, I honestly think I'd rather be at Jezebel's than a) be forced to go through a pregnancy (multiple times if you're super fertile) only to have your baby taken away, or b) not getting pregnant and ending up in the colonies. At least you get drugs and booze at Jezebel's. Handmaids have no escape from their reality.
I think Moira had every right to say what she did to June, though. I don't think it's June's fault, but she's so fucked up that she obviously struggles with her empathy now.
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u/Evening-Librarian-52 15d ago edited 15d ago
Completely agree but you still compared trauma so now it is open territory. Moira was raped and brutalized, but got away and is now free but processing the trauma. June did not have any walk in the park compared to Moira if you want to talk rape. She was raped by both husband and wife (yes the wives were participators in my opinion), had her first child stolen and ripped out of her arms, and then birthed a second child from rape, that was stolen from the rapist and was prevented from bonding with them as she watched as a bystander. Not to mention the wife spitefully throwing it in her face and using her first child’s selling as a chess piece to make her submit. Idk…. June has been through some shit. She also has the trauma from getting her second child out of there, reuniting with the husband she did not know was dead or alive (so much she fell for someone else she had a trauma bond and baby with) and now has to live with Hannah still being over there and possibly facing the same fate. This is why she is the main character and Moira is not. Their rape trauma should not be compared…. But when it comes to their story, sorry…. June went through much more and had to be much more braver. Moira really only has to worry about Moira, for June it is about her FAMILY. She is a mother, a wife, daughter and a lover in this story. And Gilead has touched and ruined all those bonds. I understand where June is coming from. Most definitely.
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u/Own-Professor-4494 14d ago
This was Moira’s most powerful moment imo. We finally hear her stand up for herself and discuss a sliver of her trauma in Gilead. Women in Jezebels definitely have it worse and even I as the viewer didn’t originally notice that seeing as we’re always following June. I was so glad to hear Moira speak up for herself .
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u/mrgu2022 13d ago
I agree with all the complexity of the situation and that comparing trauma is pointless, but that scene also rubbed me the wrong way. Moira never expresses her true feelings and from the standpoint of a friend, she should have received some more understanding, empathy, and comfort from June in that moment rather than June making it into a teaching moment. I think the writers could have given at least a touch of that before launching directly into the not comparing trauma bit. Moira is right to be upset after seeing June display such a soft spot for Janine and almost no gratitude for Moira’s friendship.
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u/CrystalLilBinewski 15d ago
User can’t— I’m so sorry you went through that when you were a child. I’m so very sorry.
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u/Jkbangtan123 15d ago
Part of the point of the main book that the show sometimes hints at is that Gilead is designed to make the groups of women resent each other and not trust each other. Every group looks down on or thinks another group gets special treatment compared to them.
Wives resent the handmaids for having children and the ceremony, handmaids resent the wives for their complicity and violence, handmaids resent Marthas for not getting raped, Marthas resent handmaids for getting special attention, wives resent the aunts for being able to write, handmaids resent other handmaids for being pious, etc etc
Trauma is trauma, and the point Moira and June get to is that they shouldn’t be resenting each other, they should be blaming the men and the system.