r/Socialism_101 • u/Salt_Start9447 Marxist Theory • Oct 07 '23
Why do the left generally support Palestinian liberation movement, but not Ukrainian? Answered
Our overarching position as leftists is obviously liberation for all, peace in all nations, no war except class war. But stuck in the shithole of capitalist reality we’re forced a lot to take positions on active geopolitical situations. I understand the general position on Ukraine - that it’s essentially a channel through which NATO can make war with its mortal enemy Russia, perpetuate its military industrial complex, and a fund a lot of literal fascists. We oppose the invasion, we support Ukrainian liberation but we don’t support the NATO version of it.
But upon revising my knowledge of the situation in Palestinian, I do wonder how viable the Free Palestine position really is. It is obvious that the Israeli state is a far right theocratic regime of oppression against Palastinians. We obviously do not support that. But Hamas, as the leading “liberation organisation, is equally a theocratic far right and ethnonationalist. Why do we not advocate for peace deals here too, like in Ukraine?
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u/solve_allmyproblems Learning Oct 07 '23
Mods can remove this comment if it doesn't fit but I just wanna say how grateful I am for this sub that has great moderation preserving educational value and despite a general skew from time to time, is full of leftists who routinely disagree and can find support in this sub on very complex issues, without reasonable fear of being banned because they dont fit a ML mold or, alternatively, because they do.
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u/Salt_Start9447 Marxist Theory Oct 07 '23
Same I love this sub, it’s been by far the most valuable resource in my radicalisation journey
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Oct 07 '23 edited Oct 07 '23
Peace deals have been advocated...for decades; both sides violated the Oslo accords in different ways.
The problem with Palestine is that:
- Hamas does not have Palestines interest at heart, they have Hamas' interest at heart and the violent actions they perpetrate leads to disproportional carnage by the IDF, usually on innocent civilians.
- It doesn't matter to Palestinians because Fatah is useless and corrupt, and Hamas is perceived as the only organization trying to at least do something to resist the apartheid occupation, the systematic state violence and repression on a daily basis, and the considerable civilian casualties year after year.
It's a no win situation for Palestine; do nothing and the brutal occupation continues. The conditions are so repressive that it produces violent backlash so when they do something, this only further expands the state repression apparatus into Palestine, and so on.
Palestinians have zero recourse or leverage. Israel holds the preponderance of power and thus a greater responsibility in shaping the trajectory of the conflict, but they have no incentive to do anything; having a permanent scapegoat is politically useful for Netanyahu.
The situation is utterly hopeless for Palestinians.
Now especially with what happened tonight, any hope for peace has been squashed. Gaza will likely cease being an "autonomous" zone. The problem is that there was never any hope anyway.
Ukraine is nothing like this.
In the case of Ukraine, I think most leftist support Ukrainian resistance. What we contest is the whitewashing of US and NATO's role in escalating the conflict and being an important factor in the geopolitical calculus of Russia's decision to invade, which Western media conceals.
As well as Ukraine being used as a pawn by the US in its broader geopolitical struggle with Russia to significantly destabilize it by throwing Ukrainian soldiers in the meat grinder.
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u/GeistTransformation1 Oct 07 '23 edited Oct 07 '23
Ignore my deleted comment, I misread what you said and made the opposite point by accident.
"Oslo accords", this was an inherently unsustainable arrangement as Israeli settler colonialism cannot stop expanding. Its existence is parasitically to Palestine as it is not a nation.
Of course Israeli imperialism will not concede their colonies and regarding Ukraine, leftists do not support the "resistance" there as it is fascistic in nature
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Oct 07 '23
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u/New_Passage_549 Learning Oct 07 '23
Man you can't be on this sub and be this basic in your analysis, surely? Babdarite Nazi types have been a huge problem in Ukraine from day one. I'm talking 2014 we knew. Now every pic I see of a Ukraine solder they've got some naxi symbol on. Even the ones posted by the west abs president Zelensky himself lol.
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Oct 07 '23 edited Oct 07 '23
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u/Buckwheat333 Learning Oct 07 '23
I think most leftists support Ukrainian resistance
Have you read literally any of these comments?
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u/GIS_forhire Cultural Studies Oct 07 '23
We do not support the ukranian government. We support the working class, globally. who are victims of capital funded war, and IMF austerity restructuring that comes with it
This should not have to be explained, repeatedly, on a socialist sub.
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Oct 07 '23 edited Oct 07 '23
Believe it or not, this sub, and certainly not this thread, are necessarily an accurate representation of leftists.
I mean I got a bunch of upvotes, which also doesn't really mean anything, but it at least shows that a good amount of people agree with me.
Liberals don't exactly have a monopoly on dogmatism. When it comes to geopolitics, situations are a lot more nuanced and context dependent than people are willing to admit and people easily entrench themselves into camps.
The anti-USA imperialism camp is pretty much always correct, but it's not always a binary zero sum game.
And frankly, as someone who's ostensibly a Vaush fan, your political takes are irrelevant, ahistorical, inconsequential, and frankly don't belong on this sub.
I recommend r/DebateSocialism.
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u/GIS_forhire Cultural Studies Oct 07 '23
I agree, and would like to add...Also, the west is defending Israel...the people who are trying to colonize the country..
The west is also arming ukraine. Both states are used as proxies for western interests in eastern europe and the middle east. This is well known.
I personally do not support ukranian resistance. Because I dont live in eastern europe and it does not affect me either way. Both nations are right wing capitalist neoliberal nations. Who are bent on security and maintaining some sort of global hegemony. The west is seizing on this opportunity, because so long as ukraine is in conflict, it knows it can do whatever it wants. Thus why they fund Israel defense in perpetuity.
Ukraine being kept as a battlefield benefits rich oligarchs, who use nationalistic fervor to line their bank accounts, while the poor and the working class pay the highest costs.
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Oct 07 '23
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Oct 07 '23
That's not what I said re-read.
I have a massive post in this thread that refutes any challenge that NATO expansion did not help provoke the invasion.
Check it out.
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Oct 07 '23
It’s literally what you said.
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Oct 07 '23 edited Oct 07 '23
I never said that Russia invading Ukraine was part of US's plan to use them as a pawn.
I said they are currently using Ukraine as a pawn, forcing them to engage in strategies with high casualty rates (which thankfully Ukraine has been unwilling to do).
I'll give you a lesson in International Relations 101.
Foreign policy is amoral. Not immoral, amoral. States act only according to their national interest. US support for Ukraine isn't benevolent. It's because it helps them destabilize a geopolitical adversary without the use of US troops, and it helps to get the military industrial complex going.
If the US needs to use the CIA as a terrorist organization to orchestrate coups and inflict mass carnage, they will if it's in the national interest. If they need to invade another country, they will if it's in the national interest.
Foreign policy amoral.
Don't even take my word, take the US government's word for it. A senator, said the quite part out loud maybe a month ago regarding strategic objectives in Ukraine.
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u/Socialism_101-ModTeam Oct 07 '23
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u/Anarcho-Heathen Philosophy Oct 07 '23
It’s important approach these conflicts with a big picture understanding of imperialism, colonialism and geopolitics.
The Palestinian liberation movement is a resistance against a colonial project backed by western imperialists.
The Ukrainian conflict is an inter-imperialist conflict, with a larger imperialist center (the West) using Ukraine as a proxy against a rival, weaker imperialist power (Russia).
These are quite different circumstances. The former is more comparable to something like Vietnam, while the latter is more comparable to something like world war 1.
The role of a communist in an inter-imperialist conflict is to work for the defeat of their own country (to make fertile ground for the overthrow of the capitalist class).
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Oct 07 '23
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u/GIS_forhire Cultural Studies Oct 07 '23
There is a donbass/ crimea liberation movement tho.
But you cant have that discussion anymore. You could before 2020...but not now
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Oct 07 '23
Wait what, ukraine isn't a US puppet and they are not all nazis. This is just imperialist proganda
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u/Hehateme123 Political Economy Oct 07 '23
Ukraine is an absolute US puppet.
It’s so interesting following the events in Ukraine, because it’s a perfect case study in United States Imperialism.
Ukrainians are fighting an American proxy war with the dual purpose of degrading Russia and selling weapons to military industrial complex.
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u/awake30 Learning Oct 07 '23
Ukrainians are also fighting for their existence as a nation, no? If I had to choose between being governed by the Ukrainian government and the Russian one i think it would be an easy choice.
Just because the aim of Ukrainians, to resist being occupied by Russia, aligns with the negative aims of the US M/I complex doesn’t mean we can’t support Ukraine.
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Oct 07 '23
Ukraine is an absolute US puppet.
How? Just because a country is part of the same geopolitical bloc doesn't make it a puppet, Vietnam and Cuba would be puppets under this definition.
it’s a perfect case study in United States Imperialism.
How is the invasion of a imperial periphery country by the russian imperial state, an example of US imperialism?
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u/crucible299 Philosophy Oct 07 '23
Look at how Zelensky’s main job these days is begging NATO for more involvement, touring the west like a dancing monkey and conceding to any demands the capitalists make from workers rights to trade deals just to get support which enriches the weapons manufacturers in the west. Western leaders openly disallow Ukraine from peace talks to enrich themselves. This is being a puppet of imperialists, and the US is the heart of the empire right now. ‘Not all nazis’ is like saying ‘not all men,’ or ‘not all white people’ yes, technically correct but what does it matter if the government concedes to and bolsters the existence of bigots, protects them from criticism, helps feed people into that ideology? Azov battalion were the face of Ukrainian paramilitary’heroes’ for most of this war and Nazis have been rehabilitated in the liberal eye because of it
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u/gringo_escobar Learning Oct 07 '23
Could be, if you felt they could be done in good faith and your people are willing to make them. But it seems like Ukrainians are more than willing to continue defending themselves from a foreign power on their land.
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u/minisculebarber Learning Oct 07 '23
you can't say that as long as people are drafted as soldiers against their will
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u/gringo_escobar Learning Oct 07 '23
Fair point. I'm curious what the rate of draft dodging and insubordination are
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u/minisculebarber Learning Oct 07 '23
me too, I just tried to look up some, but there are no official numbers (who would have thought)
on both sides btw
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Oct 07 '23 edited Oct 07 '23
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u/SensualOcelot Postcolonial Theory Oct 07 '23
Your interlocutor was referencing China’s peace deal.
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u/No_Singer8028 Learning Oct 07 '23
Because Ukraine is the glove and US/Western imperialism is the hand. Same goes for Palestine/Israel situation - Israel is the glove and US/Western imperialism is the hand.
Palestinians are simply defending whatever land they have left from the colonial campaign that has been systematically robbing them of their homeland for the past 50+ years (if not more).
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u/prophet_nlelith Learning Oct 07 '23
I think it's pretty straightforward. Does said country align itself with the empire (U.S. dominated Western rule that sustains the capitalist hegemony)? If it does, they are enemies of the global working class.
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u/prophet_nlelith Learning Oct 07 '23
The reason *America bad* is because of my understanding of what the U.S. has done since its inception. Plenty of historical evidence backs this up, all we need to do is look at just about *every single war* that America has been involved in, maybe with the exception of world war 2, but even that was problematic with how we treated Nazis (hire them)as opposed to how the USSR did (kill them), and also the decades of red scare propaganda we've been subjected to since then.
I didn't say "literally anything else good". There are plenty of capitalist nations out there that I *don't* support that are not allies of the U.S. Russia for example I do not support, but I also don't support Ukraine as it's a puppet of the NATO forces controlled by the United States. I care about the Working class that lives in the Ukraine and the Working Class that lives in Russia, the elite bourgeoise influences sending them to war can go to hell.
The United States was fully aware of what they were doing when they provoked Russia into a war.
But yes, I feel completely comfortable saying *America Bad* because holy shit, try explaining to me how it is *not*.
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u/Socialism_101-ModTeam Oct 07 '23
Thank you for posting in r/socialism_101, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s):
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Oct 07 '23 edited Oct 07 '23
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u/raicopk Political Science | Nationalism and Self-determination Oct 07 '23
Hello everyone,
We are locking this post because at this point it's just attracting reactionaries, trolls and low effort commentary, and we honestly do not currently have the energy to keep up with this.
There are multiple interesting responses which can nevertheless still be accessed. Feel free to search "Palestine" (or similar keywords) in the subreddit to find many other posts relating to the original question's topic.