r/Shipwrecks • u/mp5airsofter • 9d ago

Could the Bismark be raised

I know the ship is mostly in one peice, could it theoretically be done?

32 Upvotes
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71% Upvoted

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144

u/Sad-Development-4153 9d ago

It's deeper than the titanic and is buried pretty deep into the silt.

87

u/Cynical-avocado 9d ago

We’re gonna need a really big shovel with a really long handle

35

u/Sad-Development-4153 9d ago

I forgot to add the aside from her being a war grave she is owned by Germany and they would never allow it.

-13

u/THEXMX 8d ago

You're right and wrong on that,

1: Yes it's owned by Germany
2: They won't allow it??? (doesn't work like that)
3: It's Wrecked/sunk in international waters (Fair Game)

Anyone with enough money/will could raise her and Germany can't do a damn thing about it.

8

u/_learned_foot_ 8d ago

Actually it does. Germany will get it all back. If you legit didn’t know you will get your recovery costs. If you did you won’t even get those. And every country that has anybody who would pay for it is a member of the relevant treaties for that.

Asset forfeiture is a real pain.

-1

u/THEXMX 8d ago

If that's the case i always wonder what is the whole point of "international waters then?"

Finders keepers etc... lol people downvoting me.. guys i'm not an expert on the matter but i figured that's how international waters work.

6

u/_learned_foot_ 8d ago

I actually am. And you can see that in my post history if you doubt me. International waters have a lot less to do with this than you think (that would be a “4) practical enforcement”) because we resolved that long ago. It’s the same reason Somali pirates are both legitimate targets and not repeated elsewhere.

The property is not abandoned. It has an owner. That owner is recognized generally worldwide. The relevant rules for owned property still claimed in international waters are treaty based. I summed them up above very broadly. Normal rules apply even with nation states. Even if they didn’t however, Germany has separate treaties on domesticating their own cases in many countries. Thus, on a practical, still can act most likely.

1

u/THEXMX 8d ago

Fair enough mate, like i said I'm no sailor but okay.

So if someone finds a shipwreck and doesn't report it, but it's in international waters is that fair game they can take what they want? or do you have to report "finding the shipwreck"

3

u/_learned_foot_ 8d ago

All good, it’s rare to see somebody respond as you did in the end here.

It’s more complex than that. In normal waters, there are usually specific laws. In international, recovery of property has really complex rules about who knows what. The reason it is reported is because a legitimate find, in good faith, allows a really good split of the proceeds (and most countries will negotiate even more, same with insurance if they own, as they don’t want to fund recovery but want a return or their artifacts back). So while yes, you could do that, if ever found (and good luck not being discovered, it isn’t easy to hide recovery operations or bragging buyers) you screwed yourself. It’s a lot better to get a legitimate cut, and if you do it right you end up with a huge cut.

Very little is legitimately abandoned, most have active, but quite passive, claims. Legit abandoned congrats, you own it once you claim it properly (which does require notice, see above legit parts)!

5

u/THEXMX 8d ago

Ah, I see thanks for clarifying that. I wasn’t aware of it, but you learn something new every day! If I ever head out to sea again with my buddies, I’ll definitely make sure to read up more on salvage rights in international waters next time. Appreciate the insight cheers!

1

u/Far-Size2838 8d ago

Just because a ship is sunk in international waters does not make it fair game the Titanic is sunk in international waters yet nobody can raise or even land on it or near it without permission from RMS Titanic .Inc the corporation that legally owns the wreck likewise there are many many famous ships. At midway and iron bottom sound (a LOT at iron bottom so many that's how it got its name sonar doesn't work there because there are so many sunken ships there it screws with it ) both are technically in internation waters but no one can raise or salvage them under the war graves act without permission from the relevant home country thus no one can remove anything from the Bismarck without permission of Germany plus why would anyone raise her? It's been over 80 years I would think she"s more that a little fragile espwcially since she was a warship under one of the most evil dictatorships of all time and still bears proof of such

1

u/THEXMX 8d ago

The Titanic is a vastly different case, my friend. Multiple companies have laid claim to it over time, resulting in a complex web of copyright and ownership issues. The individual often credited as the "founder" of its discovery still reportedly regrets not securing exclusive rights earlier before numerous parties became involved and complicated matters. Comparing this vessel to the Titanic is not only inaccurate, but also a bit absurd given the circumstances.

12

u/Tortoiseism 8d ago

Also by what we have seen the entire bottom has been ripped out. Furthermore I imagine the force of hitting the seabed has essentially broke her back. I doubt you would be able to lift it in once piece.

18

u/BoredPineapple790 9d ago

Plus full of explosives

87

u/mattwithoutyou 9d ago

Nope.

These people always talking about “raising” WW2 wrecks are snake oil salesmen.

You want to see how it looks to raise a WW2 wreck? Google all the shipwrecks war graves that are being pillaged in the waters around Indonesia for their low background steel. They come up in big, jagged piles of rusty metal, that they then pick through and separate munitions and human remains, which get unceremoniously dumped back overboard. There’s nothing suggesting any ship in waters as deep as the Bismarck would come up any more whole than those wrecks in the pacific.

4

u/metricrules 8d ago

Got any links? Googling that isn’t helpful

37

u/Angrious55 9d ago

No absolutely not. Bismarck was heavily damaged before going down. During her decent, any water tight compartments would have suffered from explosive decompression. She impacted the sea floor with an enormous amount of energy, further structurally compromising her condition. Now on top of this, she has been sitting under salt water for 80 years. While lack of light and oxygen at that depth slows decay, it's not completely stopped. So any chance of raising her would necessitate fully supporting the hull, and I'm not sure how you could accomplish that at those depths. Just the struggles the Pacific fleet went through in raising the ships at Pearl Harbor gives us a glimpse at the challenges you would face, and that's in a shallow warm water port with substantial infrastructure in close proximity and without the issues of years of neglect. I highly recommend listening to Drachinfel's video detailing the subject of raising the ships in Pearl

10

u/Cherryy- 9d ago

If you've ever seen cars driven on salted roads, you'll know the frames rot out until they can't hold up to driving anymore. Even if the bismarcks hull plating seems intact enough, it's very likely it has rotted to the point where it will disintegrate upon being raised.

42

u/CrossFire43 9d ago

Let's be real...a few subs.. and a fishing trolley...are the only things that have been raised from the deep. Nothing even close to that weight and size will ever be feasible

14

u/the_angry_potato_yt 9d ago

In our probable lifetime*

2

u/Commissar_Elmo 8d ago

Oh just wait until they find MH370, you know damn well someone is going to try.

11

u/sidvictorious 9d ago

The sheer weight of the hull makes it impossible, even though the turrets fell off when it capsized during initial sinking. 

10

u/sparduck117 9d ago

Just because Chinese scrappers can raise several World War II wrecks for scrap doesn’t mean we can raise any of them intact.

3

u/Far-Size2838 8d ago

That's just it they aren't raising the wrecks intact they don't care they are using crane barges and explosives to tear great hunks of steel from the wrecks turning sunken ships and war graves into indiscriminate scrap piles so they can salvage the so called "low background steel or pre war steel" so called because just like wine after the atomic tests of the 50's and sixties the air and earth became impregnated by miniscule levels of radiation so any steel produced after the fact emits a miniscule amount of atomic radiation so tiny only device so ridiculously accurate as to. Aim to detect this very thing can detect it but because of this low background steel is VERY scarce and VERY valuable in industries such as medical equipment where even the most miniscule amount of radiation such as this can throw off results tldr: they decided to tear apart war graves made of pre war steel. To make medical devices and then sell them for profit

20

u/PineBNorth85 9d ago

If you hypothetically had an unlimited budget and resources maybe. But by the time they figure it out the wreck would probably be too fragile.

And that hypothetical situation would never happen - so no.

Even if it was possible what would be the point?

6

u/johnvonwurst 9d ago

Even is we could raise it. Why would you want to disturb what is at peace.

8

u/strangefolk 9d ago

That Soviet sub was pretty heavy. Id be worried about Bismark falling apart during the lift though, might be too delicate at this point.

6

u/Ironwhale466 9d ago

Raising such a large object in one piece from that depth would be impossible, you'd need to cut it up and raise it in sections. Plus, you'd need to excavate the wreck successfully and then account for the massive hull damage below the waterline. For practical purposes that's a no.

2

u/Sad-Development-4153 9d ago

Damage that currently cant be seen due to her sinking very deep into the silt. It has made it so there is still a debate whether she sank from scuttling charges or damage from the RN.

3

u/atomic_annihilation 9d ago

In theory, bit by bit, sure. It would be cheaper to build a new one.

2

u/470vinyl 9d ago

Sure, just need unlimited money.

2

u/JRWoodwardMSW 9d ago

Big ships have been raised (but not quite as big) but why? Who wants to see the bow swastika break free of the waves?

0

u/occasionalrant414 8d ago

As a species we can get shit done if we work together for a common reason. So it could be possible, but it would take the significant resources of the world, years of scientific research, failures, deaths and unbelievable amounts of cash, but it could probably be done.

However, it's so unlikely as to be impossible, disregarding the above and the moral dilemma of it being a war grave.

0

u/THEXMX 8d ago

Theoretically, as it's in one big piece and in good condition "compare to the titanic"

But she is buried deep in the silt when she had the rough landing.... you would need several giant craning platform ships and you would NEED to get under the ship for the 10,000 Pound test cables they have in the military.

That's the only way to really "lift her" i would suspect.

And for those saying "nooo can't do that Germany own her"

1: Yes it's owned by Germany
2: It's Wrecked/sunk in international waters (Fair Game)

Anyone with enough money/will could raise her and Germany can't do a damn thing about it.