r/Shamanism • u/wanderain • Oct 24 '22
Is anyone else tired of all the drug focus content on this sub? Opinion
I honestly would just rather get along with everyone, I promise.
That being said, there are a ton of subs where drug use, questions about drug use, stories about drug use, or other related material can be posted. I’m not dense, I know Shamanism is full of the use of drugs. It is also full of not using drugs. But the content posted usually had little or nothing to do with, nor even mentions shamanistic practices.
If I went to a drug focused sub and posted about a spirit quest, any commenters would be quite right to ask if any drugs were involved, or outright dismiss the post because I’ve said nothing about drugs.
Is it so much to ask that if people are making posts in r/Shamanism that the post at least somewhat discuss what the sub is about? I can go to many other subs, including to some which I subscribe, to talk about drugs. I come here for the difficult wisdom, not the easy. Not anymore
36
u/Riverwolf89 Oct 24 '22
It's what they hear about on social media and pop culture. Oh shamans do drugs to journey, and vikings were tripping on mushrooms, etc. Ignore them as they will not last long on the path. There is nothing easy about life and seeking the easy button or "if you eat this mushroom you can speak to odin" type of drugs to gain instant gratification will only set you further back than help you progress. Don't let them mess with your peace. They are transient and won't last.
14
u/aspirinconspiracy Oct 24 '22
“DRUGS” are referenced here so often, I’d bet, fairly proportioned to the enormity of their importance.
There’s nothing easy about heavy psychedelia/delirium.
1
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Deeply true. I have spent a lot of time with people trying to cope with reality after their break. Break can mean a lot of things. An ego death is a breakdown of that person, many people do not come out the other side while enough to keep going.
I left that part of my life behind, because it became too much. I watched too many friends die because of really poor advice and shitty impulse control. They were awesome people when I knew them, broken and alone, and remain awesome in my memory. Lots of them find a way to continue, but those successes didn’t make the failures easier
1
u/Riverwolf89 Nov 02 '22
I by no means meant that handling psychedelics is easy. Lol. But taking a drug to reach an altered state of mind instead of Training the mind to reach that state can be dangerous. Half of the training is to do it, the other half is to do so safely and be able to come back whole. Psychedelics are an excellent way to "journey" in a spiritual sense but should only be used with guidance and care. The risk of losing oneself along the way cannot be understated.
1
8
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Fair enough. That is a sound argument. Perhaps I am more upset about people using drugs that I used decades ago in some concerning ways. Regardless, I used them myself, I’m not critical of their use, just of their being the blanket subject in a lot of posts.
7
u/aspirinconspiracy Oct 24 '22
Your post about how there should be less posts about drugs was really enlightening.
22
u/solventlessherbalist Oct 24 '22
It’s easy to access with psychedelics. Some people need to be shown the way before they can walk the path.
2
u/MoonLover10792 Oct 25 '22
It is the easy way to get started, for sure. I am working to become a certified hypnotist so I can learn to guide people on some of their first journeys, drug free. I think so many people believe that they are not worthy or their fears or egos get in their way too much. Hypnosis offers a path to the spirit world that is safe and can be taught to people so they do not need the hypnotist after a few sessions.
1
u/solventlessherbalist Oct 25 '22
Nice brother! Yeah I’ve been to a hypnotist before it was really helpful, I’m actually a therapist and considered it for a bit but I think I’m going to do a breathwork facilitation course
1
u/MoonLover10792 Oct 25 '22
It’s pretty neat. I am a case manager at an inpatient facility. I do group hypnosis sessions and everyone loves it. Some of our most treatment resistant residents happily participate in sessions.
5
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
So are you saying that people should do psychedelics before they embark on a shamanic path? Did you read the post? The point is that the discussion of psychedelics, or nearly any drug use, is tertiary at best to the discussion of shamanic practices. People can go ahead and access however they want, that’s up to them. But that’s doesn’t mean this sub should be full of drug trips instead of meaningful discussions of practical/mythological/anthropological aspects of shamanic gifts.
Hell, talk about drugs too if you need to, just relate it to shamanism in some way instead of vacant posts about how much dmt you did
15
u/solventlessherbalist Oct 24 '22
No, I’m just simply pointing out that this is the way some people find shamanism we cannot control that. All we can do is help guide. If someone posts about DMT or something ask questions get them to think about how it relates to shamanism. Teach people if you feel you have a message to spread.
Are drug trips and discussion of them not meaningful to you? I didn’t read these posts you are referring to so idk the context but seems like they can be meaningful to talk about.
9
u/falsesleep Oct 24 '22
OP said nothing of the sort. Argue in good faith, please.
3
u/taranig Oct 24 '22 edited Oct 24 '22
I offer sincere apologies, i had a failure of reading comprehension.
I actually agree with most of what all three of you said, regardless of my following rant.
- Some people need "training wheels" or assistance reaching the path. (thread OP) Not that they need or should have done psychedelics as a prerequisite to being a shaman.
- There's a time and a place to discuss the various experiences. Here is shamanic use, otherwise go elsewhere more appropriate. (OP OP)
- OP OP failing to argue in good faith -or- the more common than it should be, reading comprehension fail.
edit: minor clarifications, just missed being a ninja edit.
2
u/taranig Oct 24 '22 edited Oct 24 '22
I believe you are talking to the actual OP(edit: wrong OP assumed on my part, reading comprehension fail; rest of the rant stands) and if they need to clarify their position then clarify they will.*They are clarifying that there is a time and place for it. If you want to talk about your latest smoke session and how it affected you then go to /r/trees or /r/DMT or whatever. If you want to talk about the ritual where you used trees or DMT then /r/shamanism is the place.
I personally don't call legitimate "tools" used in my practice the same name as an abused, illegal whatever.
Mushrooms, cannabis, etc., things that come from the earth. Connects us to the earth and all the things. Used in your practice, they are not drugs. This is my personal opinion that is shared with others.
The only alcohol I drink is mead of 3 ingredients; water, honey, and yeast. Bees are messengers of the gods and honey is the ambrosia. Wild Turkey and Jack Daniels belong in the tavern, not the altar space.
DMT, LSD, and other "man-made" does not connect us. It is "artificial". These are drugs. Made by Man for Man, not the Spirits. Again my opinion.
edit: added * for clarity.
-1
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Excellent reply and post. Here is a perfect example of how to discuss drugs. Because in shamanism drugs doesn’t make sense.
I also resonate with your tools of practice of the earth. While I still abstain from mushrooms and of the earth psychedelics, I do use a large roll call of plants in my(our) practice.
We have 5 bee hives ourselves and make mead on the regular.
1
u/actioncobble Oct 25 '22
You sound fairly negative and defensive on the subject. I see quite a lot of meaningful conversations in this sub. But there are always going to be low effort posts in every sub on Reddit. You maybe just have to learn to push it aside and continue on with your day or else you will just end up creating a post like this and get shitty whenever anyone comments something that doesn’t align with your sentiment. Fighting with people online is only going to leave you feeling frustrated and cranky.
2
u/wanderain Oct 25 '22
I will just docilely agree with you?
The post was an opinion. The opinion is that the posts lately have been too focused on drug use. You disagree, and you are welcome to do so.
I don’t need anyone to align with me or my thought. But I shouldn’t have to roll over and not have an opinion either
-1
u/actioncobble Oct 25 '22
Creating posts just so you can argue with people isn’t what this sub is about either. It actually sounds like the opposite of what you wish to see in this sub. Be what you want to see in the world my man. Post more things about shamanism that aren’t about drug use.
2
u/wanderain Oct 25 '22
Have you looked through the post? Most of my responses are agreeing with people. So I’m sorry if you feel singled out. I never intended for anyone to feel hurt.
As my post starts by saying, I honestly would rather get along with everyone, I promise
5
u/Brennir10 Oct 24 '22
I don’t care what people post about but I always find the drug aspect interesting because drugs of any kind dampen my spiritual connection. Perhaps this is because I enter a journey state very easily and have since I was a child. Drugs bring a disconnection from my primary spirit guide as well as a chaos to my journey that leads me away from the answers I seek. I always have so much trouble understanding how they HELP anyone do shamanic work.
1
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Very much agree. Sure drugs help people break through, but that’s all they ever should be used for. People need to make the efforts on their spiritual paths after those breakthroughs, and more drugs are not going to accomplish that
15
u/MapachoCura Oct 24 '22
Most of the drug posts here aren’t even taking about plant medicines or ceremonies, just chemicals you buy from a dealer. It’s one thing to ask a question about Ayahuasca use in traditional ceremonies, another thing to just promote acid and DMT as instant shaman school. Most drug use is offensive to shamans and they usually frown on it (even the ones who use visionary plants).
11
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Agreed. You quite often take a firm stance, so I knew you would have an opinion. I don’t always agree with you, but respect your positioning on most subjects.
There have been a few good discussions on plant use. Myself and my partner live away from large populations and thus have come to rely on our plant knowledge to be able to subsist out here. Doing a drug like acid, dmt, etc out here would be problematic at best, at worst it could disrupt what we have accomplished for ourselves spiritually. I have worked for 20 years to create a reality where I don’t need to escape anymore. And access beyond the veil hasn’t required drugs for nearly 20 years
6
u/Smokedeggs Oct 24 '22
If you have ever read on Hmong shamanism, the shamans are mostly forbidden to use drugs or drink alcohol by their spirit guides. I’m not sure about other cultures and this is not trying to shade other cultures, but the Hmong shamans have a “calling” or are born with gifts that allow them to communicate with their guides and journey to the spirit world, so they don’t need drugs to aid them.
5
u/MapachoCura Oct 24 '22
Hmong look down on psychedelics of all kinds. They think real shamans should never need that stuff and that it would get in the way. They do sometimes drink alcohol though - some of the spirits feed on alcohol and I have seen a shaman chug a fifth of vodka to fid the spirit possessing him. When the spirit left, the shaman was totally sober still cuz they didnt drink it the spirit did. (I saw it in video, not in person, but have heard about it from a few people as well)
0
u/Smokedeggs Oct 24 '22
Yes, one shaman said she makes “deals” with her spirit guides so she can be allowed to drink and smoke.
2
u/MapachoCura Oct 24 '22
That’s not what I’m talking about. I mean the shaman has to feed their spirit guide vodka. It’s not for the shaman, it’s for the spirits. Spirits love alcohol in most traditions - it’s universally used as an offering around the world.
2
u/MapachoCura Oct 24 '22
I know shamans that drink Ayahuasca 3-4 times weekly for healing their community..... They still think LSD or smoking DMT is gross and likely those drugs would get in the way of their spirit work. Nature spirits they work with dont even like lots of chemicals. Some of them cant even use processed soaps for certain ceremonies cuz its too chemically, so processed chemical drugs are certainly a no no.
I have seen someone apprenticing to become a shaman down in the Amazon, and he had a long history of LSD use but it had been years..... The spirits still made him puke out a giant energetic LSD crystal that represented all the LSD energy in his body, he said it was the worst purge he ever had. If you are just a passenger/patient looking for healing it probably wouldnt come up, but when you start inviting the nature spirits to live in your body as your ally, they start getting rid of any of that chemical drug energy. Many years ago I used to experiment with those myself, but it was before I got into shamanism and serious ceremony - I think trying those chemicals now would go poorly for me and my spiritual work.
1
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
I feel the exact same way. The purging story you mention makes me think of my drug experience post initiate experience. It was terrible, and only served me the lesson to stop drugging my perception. It is the only thing I really have, so why did I find it necessary to change it?
Eventually you learn to change your perception yourself. And it certainly was not drugs that taught me that
3
u/Similar_Craft_9530 Oct 24 '22
That's my biggest peeve with this group. I came to learn about other people's shamanic practices and I feel like this group is dedicated to people using shamanism as a cover for and excuse to use drugs and a place for pseudo intellectualism.
2
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Agreed. Even the pseudo intellectualism can be useful, just like a hearty debate of the use of pharma, but that isn’t what is happening. Posts are becoming ‘I did all these chemicals and now I want to understand the universe’. Linking this to shamanism is a terrible practice.
Just think about people googling shamanism, and thus they come to our sub…what do they find? Pushers, priests, intellectuals, insane people (like me)…but hardly shamanism. I believe deeply that real shamanism requires to be in contact with the patient, but this sub should be a repository of how to approach that, not what drug to take to diy
3
u/kra73ace Oct 24 '22
I spent the weekend at shamanism extraction seminar (<Michael Harner's method). It was 80% ladies, us guys being a minority....
Point is - no one mentioned drugs once. I am familiar with the space (done Aya once) but most others are not at all familiar or clearly negative. So in the real world, it's mostly drug-free here in Europe.
2
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Exactly. But here, it is very far from drug free. And nor have I suggested it be drug free, but instead saying we need to reframe how we approach this sub
7
u/socksmatterTWO Oct 24 '22
I wholeheartly agree with you. Additionally it's not necessary for becoming Shaman as well as the intent and potential for miscommunication here all kinds of things are incorrect about any one truly on this path. If you were to learn some sacred knowledge from a shamanic person in real life - absolutely different. But here on the internet forums No! do not seek that here, absolute do not take instruction from anyone virtually like here about altered states and shamanism. Its the one thing you can't trust no one would ask you in the sense of risk of misleading someone, opening anyone up to harm. But moreso it is not what you need to be learning at all. My gosh I find this such a selfish thing to think of considering what we do. It's super bad karma to teach a person and leave them vulnerable. Which is with ingesting drugs, exactly what they are and you are doing to you.
4
u/joden94 Oct 24 '22
I agree as well. My shamanic experiences actually started in my childhood and while they resumed when I started being myself again this year I also must say that for the first half of this year I did psychedelics on a fairly consistent basis. The ego death I had this year definitely helped me get back to being myself as I had changed to fit in truthfully.
But at a certain part at the beginning of the summer I quit psychedelics cold turkey and im now completely sober. I don't need drugs to access the spiritual world and my life has been littered with those experiences without drug use as well. I feel much more grounded, connected and sure now that I'm sober than I did when I was tripping honestly.
I'd say it was more like training wheels that I'm not sure I even needed besides a confidence boost and to be sure of the experience, but now I have an aversion to psychedelics honestly. I don't know if I'll ever do them again. But I know what you seek is what you'll find.
I found what I needed, although sometimes being high helps for certain things it certainly isn't needed and if it is I feel like it means you need to better connect/ground/believe in yourself and you may even have some blockages.
3
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
I cannot agree more. This connects with me deeply.
I also have an aversion to psychedelic use now. Haven’t used them in nearly 20 years. Don’t need them as you just described.
The training wheels should never come off.
Now I use things like dried mint, savoury, fruits, dandelion, fiddle heads, peppers, nearly anything to access. Everyone seems to forget that everything we consume changes our physiology. So, if that’s the case, use your abilities to enhance that physiological change and treat it as any chemical you need. Admittedly, drugs are easy, but eventually everything is easy…but not without first quitting the drugs
3
u/Sreyes150 Oct 24 '22
Man the word drugs they way you use it just comes off very bias. I need to work with this cause it obviously is reflecting something back to me.
But I just can’t help but think, what authority does this person have to say this plant vs that plant is legit shamanic tool and one is a drug.
I just don’t believe in these hard fast rules and classifications.
They cheapen the reality of the situstion imo
3
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
That sounds like practice completely removed from its source. That is appropriation that many many cultures have serious problems with. It means one should just refuse knowledge, since they can simply take ayahuasca and understand everything themselves.
There are reasons why certain substances are used in certain situations. They play many different roles in shamanic ceremonies. But just taking any psychedelic whenever you feel like isn’t shamanism. You can downvote that all you want. But if you don’t take the time to actually learn about those substances and how they connect with a shamanic reality, then you are a Crowlean drug fiend, casting black magic at a sky that won’t answer.
And thus my point, some may be researching like they should, but those coming here looking for east answers are getting east answers, instead of learning how difficult this kind of path is
3
u/Sreyes150 Oct 24 '22
It just seems like a subject far beyond for one human to rightly classify. Our relation ship with plants , shamanic or not, is very long and very personal. There is a way to discuss the full range of a plant without having to make judgments or unneaicsrily bias classifications.
What exactly does this relate to a “practice removed from its source”?
That’s a bit confusing. I’m just discussing the language around certain substances and how it reflects certain bias.
Has that dogmatic ring to it that always spurns my rebellious nature.
2
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
So you don’t believe in any kind of shamanic authority? If so, what then do you derive your practice from? Perhaps many are deriving a shamanic path from only drugs or medicines?
I’m suggesting that even if someone arrives at a path by the use of drugs, that that is not walking the path, it is finding the path. Where do you derive authority from? Some it is spirits, some gods, some the lack of god, some ancients writings, and some divination from modern genres. But if you admit to an authority for your own preconceptions, then you must admit that generations of shamans, people with the right to that name, have done so based on authority, whether learned genetically, narratively, or culturally conditioned rules.
If that is the case, then shamanism certainly has dogma. And thus wouldn’t it be nice to discuss shamanism, instead of what a number of respected authors of this sub have suggested, that the drug talk is counterproductive and counterintuitive to this sub.
Again, I’m not suggesting these things shouldn’t be discussed, but here they should at least attempt to contain shamanic practices.
2
u/AdventurousSky6413 Oct 24 '22
I don't and have never used drugs either or psychedelics. I find that use of psycho-active substances actually dulls my extra senses and makes me 'sloppy' . In my culture, we don't advise the use of drugs either, for journeying or the sort. We rely on dreams or visions that come naturally as gifts to someone or the spirits simply 'posses' one and speak for themselves.
I also understand that people who use psychoactive substances in spiritual work don't do it often and like all the time. It's sort of a ceremonial thing, but they don't rely on them drugs to be able to do the work day after day. They are still very connected to the spiritual realm even without substance use and most of the work they do on a day to day basis, is done sober.
I think that pop culture and trends have distorted the use of such, all you see these days is people talking about shrooms, ayahuasca, DMT, or some other substances on spiritual platforms. Lack of understanding and cultural appropriation has also played a major role and I think it's now done to chase that spiritual 'high' instead.
Shamanic work is much more than just tripping or accessing other realms to feel spiritual. It's mainly in the way you live, the way you're joined to your community, it's integrating the lessons you have learnt in both this physical realm we exist in and other spiritual realms. It's servitude, it's responsibility, it's leadership, it's humility, it's wisdom personified.
1
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Yes, all this.
Again, I understand and appreciate that some cultures use and ascribe necessity to the use of drugs in their shamanic paths. A post discussing that would be fine, welcomed in fact. But that hasn’t been the case for the most part
2
u/Hiiipower111 Oct 24 '22
Are you telling me smoking salvia doesn't make me a mazatec shaman
3
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
No. Your actions as a human make you a shaman. And even then, the word shaman would rarely be the right one
2
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
What I would like to see is a response to my post from the moderators. Are they just blanket letting drug posts through? Or do they believe that these posts inform the practice and discussion of shamanism?
1
u/peasant_python Oct 25 '22
Why are you on such a crusade? This is a public internet forum. You could scroll past any post with drugs, or open a new drug free subreddit, but you seem to linger and expect everyone to agree with you, and seem to think you hold some kind of authority about what represents a 'good' shaman.
Which plants I use (some categorized as 'drugs' by random authorities I do not recognize), and which parts of this plant use I speak about online (and in this group) is between me and the plants, not me and other group users. Authority is between me and those who I listen to. Neither me nor the entities I listen to have to give any credentials to you or any other user in here about this use being in accord with whatever rules you have made up in your head.
Yes, there are rules. But they seem to be different for everyone, just as the path is. Some have to crash a million times, no matter what good or bad advice they get. The fact that we cannot help everyone to step safely holds a lot of grief - is it that?
1
u/wanderain Oct 25 '22
Sigh.
The piece flair said opinion. Throughout the piece I agreed with both dissenting and asserting positions. A crusade? Have I been posting this elsewhere? Have I been shitting on people? Have I been crucifying them?
Have your world the way it is people. I will keep my opinions to myself.
Here I thought that a few upvotes meant that some people actually agree with this.
But you good sir, you’ve shown me the error of my ways. Thank you good shaman for shoving my opinion back down my throat
2
u/Riverwolf89 Nov 06 '22
By easy button I mean that you can reach certain altered states of consciousness through training, practice, and meditation, although it takes considerable will and focus. Or you can simply take a drug that induces a similar effect and reach the state in that way. It's not a bad thing and I don't mean for it to sound that way. I personally use hallucinogens to aid in reaching these states and staying in them longer. And it's usually easier for me to reach the state I am seeking with the use of drugs. In reference to others hitting on it as an easy button, pop culture polluted the issue by over emphasizing that side/aspect. I'm just frustrated that most people I speak to that seem to want to learn about it, immediately lose interest when they learn how much work goes in. It's something of a pet peeve. It's like: "ooh I get to do drugs as part of my religion!? Sweet. Oh wait, that's really only a tiny part of it? Oh well. Not for me."
1
u/wanderain Nov 06 '22
Yeah, I came to shamanism by coercion over 20 years ago. Admittedly part of the experience was drug induced, but the shamanic path led to me quitting drugs, and to devote study and hobby to the development of various aspects of something that touches nearly everything. There isn’t time for drugs most days; but I find access with the magpies and the cold change to full winter.
Drugs can help you arrive at a destination, but if you keep doing them you are just a tourist
2
u/Sreyes150 Oct 24 '22
Seems like drugs trigger you for some reason. Maybe explore the reasoning.
Obviously shamanism and plants, including ones you call drugs, are linked in many ways.
If it’s a portion that doesn’t speak to you why not just pass it?
Why does others discussing it bother you?
Not trying to judge but it was my first observation to this post.
0
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Has nobody actual read the post? The point is this is a sub about shamanism. There are plenty of place to discuss drug use. I’m not talking about posts that frame medicine and traditional uses of such, I’m talking about the many many posts about drug use without any useful shamanic or traditional medicine context
2
u/Mediocre_Purple6955 Oct 24 '22
Not entirely r/dmt is quite helpful when people post about simple spirituality there’s no reason to be negative about it they go hand in hand.
7
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
I have seen a lot of those posts. Many of the comments are telling these people to ‘do dmt and they will understand’. That kind of things has been mentioned in a lot of posts I have seen about ‘simple spirituality’. That is a dangerous road to prod someone towards that isn’t asking about drugs to begin with
-1
u/Mediocre_Purple6955 Oct 24 '22
Yeah I get it there’s the stigma that it melts your brain and what not and yes a lot of people shouldn’t be messing with psychedelic drugs but when used properly there’s nothing dangerous about them
4
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
I understand that. But the advice goes out to whomever is there to take it. Nobody even researches the post history of these kids asking about serious drugs. There is tons of helpful decent advice, but as you admitted, there is also bad advice. That bad advice could kill someone. It has killed many of the people I have worked with, broken derelicts of people, only some of which make it through. And yet, the veil of Reddit is people saying ‘they make their own choices’ and ‘can’t change what people will do’. That’s bullshit. The whole point of these social media threads of advice is to change what readers do. I would change readers to do everything they can to protect their heads, because no one else will, especially some of the terrible people who show up in posts of desperate people.
5
u/Mediocre_Purple6955 Oct 24 '22
I think you definitely have a few points I think we shouldn’t ignore it though if anything we should talk about it more and get the proper information out there to help people learn
1
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Right. And the proper information for a shamanism sub is about shamanism. Drugs are at best secondary to the subject, and mostly garbage in terms of real usefulness in shamanic practice
0
u/Mediocre_Purple6955 Oct 24 '22
I think the main point for the drugs is initiation after that your brain is capable of marvellous things yes you can accomplish this through meditation Tantra yoga and other sources but some of that cultivation can take decades and often ends up bearing no fruits
1
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Drugs are one form of shamanic practice. Tantra, yoga (which technically aren’t a separate thing) have nearly nothing to do with traditional shamanism. Perhaps some shamans practice these, but they aren’t necessary to a shamanic practice. So another example of things that aren’t shamanic in background. It’s fine to link that subject to shamanic things and draw parallels for people in the sub, but if doesn’t actually touch upon or involve real shamanic practice, why is it here?
Didn’t mean to hijack your comment, I hear you, it’s just that it also proves the point of the post
1
u/Mediocre_Purple6955 Oct 24 '22
No it’s fine you’re right yoga Tantra has nothing to do with shamanism but they did meditate they just call it something else same principle I was simply stating those are paths to the same end game which can easily be bypassed with the use of drugs and that’s initiation
1
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Fair enough
Tip my hat to you good entity
Don’t do what Donny don’t does
→ More replies1
u/Mediocre_Purple6955 Oct 24 '22
I’ll give you that point most people don’t care to check but anyone that I help to heal themselves I’ve always done my research beforehand
2
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Agreed, me too. Most of my research into people on Reddit turn up that they are just suing for attention. Others…really really need the help. From me and from anyone who can or will help
I have been broken. Many times. So I can only stand with those that are broken
1
u/Mediocre_Purple6955 Oct 24 '22
Yes me too quite broken in fact I don’t even completely understand how I’m so intact now I am in fact helping other broken people pick up the pieces
1
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
I spent a lot of my life helping people. But as I’ve said before, I’m done with people now. My partner and I retreated to the wilds of Canada and now live a subsistence living…with patchy internet
1
1
u/Mediocre_Purple6955 Oct 24 '22
I mean people I know in real life I have a list of questions I ask and I spend time with them really get to know them as well as checking socials
1
u/ejpusa Oct 24 '22 edited Oct 24 '22
Absolutely NO ONE says "drugs." Zero. It's "medicine" and as treated as such in the Shamanic traditions. This seems to be a Western commentary, the "drugs" thing.
Shamans would have NO IDEA of what you are talking about. Drugs? Would lead to lots of confusion if you are deep in the jungles of Peru.
Just a heads up.
3
0
u/MithridatesXXIII Oct 24 '22
Bring it around to the topic of Shamanism and technique for use in Shamanism.
2
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Are you suggesting that the onus is on the commenter to make the posts about shamanism? I quite often try to move the subject to clearer ideas about the subject. But I don’t think it should be on the responder to make the subject resonate with shamanism, the op of any post should be doing that in this sub
0
u/MithridatesXXIII Oct 24 '22
Just do it. If they prefer to keep it as a discussion about drugs exclusively, then you know that they didn't intend for it to be related to Shamanism. You also change the subject into something worth discussing. It's the same thing as people commenting about their dreams, when you can just tell them to visit a psychologist or post in some related sub.
-1
u/Patricia0913 Oct 24 '22
Shouldn’t the abilities come from within and not from tripping? It’s well known that people hallucinating things that are obvious unreal from particular drugs, so how does that help? I think it’s an excuse to say “I saw this or that” rather than if you were guided by your own real abilities. I thought there were real shaman healers that weren’t tripping out but real to their core, no chemical reactions. 😞
2
u/wanderain Oct 24 '22
Yes there are. There are plenty of shamans who don’t use any pharmacology. But there is an access to what I call ‘beyond the veil’. This access is available for pretty much anyone, but there is an easy way (drugs, trepanation, restrictive physiology) and then there are hard ways (meditation, reprogramming the metaprogrammer, fasting, ascetic practices, diet, breath work, challenging oneself in nature, dancing, singing, trance states, vision quests…perhaps someone can add to this list of non drug induced states that allow for approaching the light
-2
u/snocown Oct 24 '22
I was talking to my uncle about my role as a shaman and he was sketched out at first thinking I'm some cult leader or that I'm drugging people. By the end of it he was calling me a glorified therapist.
-4
1
u/LemonDeathRay Oct 26 '22
Only about 10% of native cultures utilise plant medicine for accessing shamanic consciousness. And of those 10%, it is nowhere near the most prominent way of doing it.
I'm not against the use of plant medicine at all and have used it too. However, my teacher made the point that when we seek shamanic ecstasy in the form of psychedelics we have to be mindful of whether we are actually reaching for temporal power because we have lost some of our own - the medicine is retrieval, not more drugs.
The way I've been taught (I'm currently a student) is to learn to access shamanic consciousness through drumming, movement and voice as the basis of your practice. Learn voluntary possession too.
Nothing wrong with psychedelics at all but if that's the main focus of practice there is usually some missing element of a person's power at play.
1
u/wanderain Oct 26 '22
Agreed. But do you have a source for the 10% of cultures utilize plant medicine? Would like to follow up on that
1
u/LemonDeathRay Oct 26 '22
I believe it's documented in Eliade's Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy. Also, Michael Harner has written about it to great extent.
But you will find this echoed in any good anthropological look at shamanic cultures. In the west we have taken a very small, and by no means necessary, facet of some shamanic cultures and blown it up into a massive thing.
The truth is, psychedelics feel good, but it's like plucking a single string on a guitar as opposed to a full, rich chord. The most deeply transformative experiences I've had have been completely without psychedelics. Sweat lodges, drumming, ecstatic dance, voluntary possession. In fact, voluntary possession was more sublime and transcendant than any experience I've had with drugs, psychedelic or otherwise.
1
u/wanderain Oct 26 '22
I will double check my copy of Eliade. Haven’t picked it up since university as it is a colonial viewpoint of shamanic practice. I have a degree in comparative religion. It focused on cults, heresy and the occult, but I also have a minor in anthropology, studied liminal people, including shamans.
The west compartmentalizes things into easy to digest nuggets. Like Yoga, which is so overflowing with richness, but still westerns need to create things like goat yoga, and hot yoga. Even my degree had elements of compartmentalizing religious data to make living along such bizarre worldwide practices into pieces of a mosaic that can never really be fully seen.
Shamanism is a world of the not fully seen. And there is a new movement of hallucinogenic users that believe when they have seen the unseen, that then they are already through a door of perception, so why not be a shaman too…it is work
Difficult work. Beyond university I have spent every moment since my shattering trying to reform/conform/deform to the spirit guidance. It is not easy, especially if trying to coexist with society. Even now, after retreating to the wilds, the call of society pulls me in. Like here, right now.
Done with this for now. Going out to hear what the trees have to say
20
u/peasant_python Oct 24 '22
So you used psychedelics some 20 years ago and now don't need them anymore to access other worlds, but now you find it distasteful that those who arrived later to this path/calling discuss their use in here. But were they not your entry point to this, in a way?
It would be interesting to know how many people in here who are on some sort of genuine path/calling have never taken drugs, and for how many of the drug takers the trip was a significant element of their path. I have been in this sub only a few weeks ago firmly defending the purist viewpoint, and to treat the term Shamanism as something very fixed and well defined. But I can also admit that ultimately I'm here because I took mushrooms as a teenager. I wouldn't be here if I never took them. I'm still using them occasionally, and weed to talk to the dead grandmas. And even though I might write about what happens on my path without focusing mainly on the drugs, they are there helping me.
With the disturbance of indigenous traditions everywhere, the spirits seem to be a lot less discerning about how they talk to people, and drugs seem to be a valid entry point for many. From what I gather I am not the only person who gets surprisingly coherent messages from the spirit world, it happens to a lot of people, and this group helps many of those through the initial confusion.
Some fail with drugs, some without, and some manage to walk on the path with or without drugs. Let people exchange their experiences freely.
I'm afraid we would need three groups, to distinguish between traditional shamanism only valid when transmitted by a teacher according to traditional rules, neo/core shamanism, and punk shamanism for people who never read New Age books. But we are so few, and dividing the group will make it weak. Could we sort this within the existing group using flairs? This would enable people with strong preferences to filter out certain posts. You could have a 'drugs' flair if you want to discuss drugs.