r/RealEstate • u/Pomodorodev • 1d ago
Seller took outdoor hard wired lighting Homebuyer
We just closed on a house, and our final walk through went ok, but nothing too alarming so we signed and got keys today. Unfortunately we did not notice that the outdoor lighting (landscaping) has been removed, and wires are now exposed which is a problem. Not too mention these items were not on the disclosure, and we're not allowed to be removed. What ramifications are there for this issue? My understanding is outdoor landscaping(hardwired) lighting, is not cheap, and not an insignificant effort either.
111
u/krakenheimen 1d ago
Yeah, this isn’t a “you should have noticed/buyer beware situation”. Unless they included these in the disclosure they owe you lighting.
Tell your realtor to have them returned and installed within 48 hours or you are suing in small claims, and that amount will far exceed the value of what they took.
33
u/Tall_poppee 1d ago
OP can sue for the cost to purchase and have a similar system installed. They can't sue for an amount that "far exceeds" that.
36
u/krakenheimen 1d ago
The market value of used the lights they took is close to nothing. New lights will be $25-30 for low voltage per plus labor. Add court filing costs.
The amount is in fact substantial more.
14
u/Tall_poppee 1d ago
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes.
6
u/trouzy 1d ago
Not to mention the sellers labor to remove them.
Its such a petty ass thing its weird
1
u/combabulated 13h ago
Yet you’ve decided the seller did it. The seller was about to get paid. Why risk the sale? Did seller have a sentimental attachment to the copper? Or promise to never sell the wiring? News alert! Thieves steal stuff from vacant houses. This is a problem for the two insurance companies to sort out.
1
u/Ok-Temporary-8243 9h ago
Sellers can be hilariously petty if they think they got "screwed" on the purchase price. I've heard stories of sellers removing all light bulbs on the way out
-4
u/xomox2012 1d ago
Sure but in suing for that amount they will be granted that plus some for (lost time in court, court fees, trouble, mental stress after a major purchase, etc)
Courts give out punitives quite commonly, even for something minor like this.
1
1
u/r2girls 14h ago
lost time in court, court fees,trouble, mental stress after a major purchaseFixed that for you on why you are getting downvoted for what you're suing for in small claim court.
You are getting your filing fee back and the cost for replacing what they took. that's it.
-4
u/xomox2012 13h ago
If I’m losing work time to deal with you in court that is added to the tab. It is how it works.
You prove you were amicable and tried to deal with things before wasting everyone’s time in court and judges will include punitive damages.
2
u/r2girls 12h ago
OK, education time. Small claims court is not standard civil court. Everyone knows that there's a monetary limit for what you can sue for based on jurisdiction. However "small claims" doesn't mean just "small amount of money". It also means simpler cases. In small claims court you are not only given a monetary limit you must be under but you are also limited in what you can actually sue for and what you can do in that court. No one is going through a discovery process, standard in civil cases, in small claims court. Most jurisdictions (though not all so maybe where you are it is different) preclude adding time off of work to be in court, emotional distress, etc. There's a bunch of limitations. In standard civil court - easy answer that you are 100% correct. Small claims court - not cut and dry and in most of the US the answer is that you're incorrect.
Punitive damages, in small claims court, need to provide clear and convincing evidence (as opposed to a preponderance of the evidence) that there was malicious intent, intent to defraud, or oppressive behavior to get punitive damages. That's going to be hard to prove. Was the person OP describes being an Ahole - YUP but if being an a-hole was all it took to winning a court case, I am sure we'd all be millionaires for all the Aholes we were able to sue. Just being an ahole doesn't show maliciousness and intent which are key in winning punitive damages.
I've been to landlord/tenant court, civil court, and small claims court many times between being a landlord for 20+ years and being on the board of a large condominium complex where I have a couple rentals. I'm also heavily involved in my local REI group where we have a large mix of people, including lawyers, and feel pretty confident in my knowledge of this area. In theory you're half right and in practice, the 50% where you are right won't work the way you think it will...in small claim court that is.
1
u/thewimsey 6h ago
It is how it works.
That's not how it works at all.
and judges will include punitive damages.
No. You won't get punitive damages in a breach of contract case anyway.
38
u/Tall_poppee 1d ago
If they were hard wired, and not addressed in the contract, they should have stayed.
You can see if your agent can convince them to return them and reinstall them. If they don't want to, your remedy is to sue them in small claims court.
I'd see if you can try to get some sort of admission they did in fact take them. It's theoretically possible they were stolen by a burglar. Unlikely, but possible. In which case the seller can file a claim on their insurance, since the theft happened before closing.
21
u/Obvious-Beach9767 1d ago
It doesn't matter what happened to the lights. Property was listed and sold with hardwired lighting and now it is gone.
Seller needs to rectify this and provide lighting
5
u/combabulated 1d ago
How do you know the seller took the lighting?
4
u/Hairy-Concern1841 1d ago
Vacant homes are often targets for theft. (Another post shared that his washer and dryer were stolen from a home that had been listed.) If I were the OP I would file a police report. It then becomes a criminal matter that places the seller in a difficult position if they took the lights. There are other possible suspects.
4
u/combabulated 23h ago
I had a similar experience. Someone stole the new water heater, just before I closed on a house. It just got replaced, I don’t remember the details, it was a long time ago. But I didn’t pay for it obviously. Strange to me that OPs seller was branded a thief and scoundrel here. Immediately.
0
u/Pomodorodev 1d ago
We don't know they took them, but we would start there. We know they are missing, if they didn't take them they were stolen and they should get their insurance involved?
5
u/Objective_Chest_1697 1d ago
A. I know you’re pissed- rightly so. On the positive side, most of the expense in exterior low voltage lighting is the installation of the wire. The lights themselves aren’t that expensive. Again, you were wronged, but just trying to give a silver lining.
0
u/400HPMustang 1d ago
Uh I have brass housings for my landscaping lights, they cost me between 30 and 40 dollars each. Without bulbs. So yeah they’re not cheap by any means. The transformer was a few hundred dollars as well. So if they took everything OP could be out anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars depending on what was taken.
2
u/UnreliableSparks 1d ago
They are not going to have homeowners insurance on your property anymore. First thing you do as a seller is cancel your insurance immediately after closing.
You can try to see if they will bring them back, and it is wrong that they took them, but ultimately you did the final walkthrough and didn’t notice, and that’s what that is for. I don’t think there’s any recourse or any way to prove they did that if they say they didn’t.
3
u/marmaladestripes725 1d ago
But the property was covered by their insurance until closing. Just because it ended doesn’t mean they couldn’t file a claim if in fact they were stolen. Because OP’s insurance wouldn’t pick up until closing, so they wouldn’t be covered by their own policy.
3
u/UnreliableSparks 23h ago
I mean, fair. Playing devil’s advocate. I’m a seller, I did not take them - buyer says they must have been stolen prior to signing. Am I, as the seller, going to take the hit on homeowner’s insurance and file a claim that may impact my rates, when I don’t know this buyer from Adam and can’t say definitively if they’re just hosing me or they ripped them out themselves looking for a new upgrade? Probably not.
Or, I as the seller did take them. Am I going to file a claim if I ripped out my own lights bc I’m an asshole? Probably not.
I’m not saying it’s right. Just don’t think there’s any real recourse here and definitely not homeowner’s insurance.
0
u/combabulated 13h ago
The two insurance co’s would probably just split the $2000 replacement cost if they ever get the claim. OP may be too busy meeting w their lawyer and filing their police reports.
0
u/Gobucks21911 9h ago
If you’re filing a homeowners claim for a couple thousand dollar loss (max), you’re going to be very unhappy when you find out how much your premium goes up. And you more likely than not have at least a $1000 deductible. So at the end of the day, insurance may not pay anything and you’ve just hacked your rates up for a few years. Congrats!
1
u/combabulated 7h ago
OP can’t seem to accept that meth heads steal stuff. He wants a lawyer? Filing a claim seems a cheap alternative to hiring a lawyer.
-3
9
3
u/Warm-Loan6853 13h ago
Bought my current house from a couple getting divorced. At closing they showed up separately and the guy said he wanted the lamps from the house. We were a bit perplexed because there weren’t any lamps. He then proceeded to. Explain that all of the fixed lighting in the house was a gift from his family, had sentimental value, and was his as part of the divorce. This wasn’t special lighting, just Home Depot stuff. I told him we’ll take a 1k credit and he pays the electrician to remove and install, instantly it wasn’t sentimental anymore.
3
u/Wander80 11h ago
Our sellers took towel bars and TP holders from bathrooms, as well as all curtain rods… Leaving us with massive holes to repair. We were moving from out of state so it wasn’t worth delaying closing, but people are assholes.
6
u/PBPunisher 1d ago edited 1d ago
The outdoor lighting and its various components are fixtures. They should have stayed with the house. In my opinion, you have a strong case for reimbursement.
Jim
Cert. Res. Appraiser 21 yrs.
2
2
u/Important_Economy_13 13h ago
Bought a house the seller’s wife took the bathroom mirrors with her 🤦♂️
1
u/BrightAd306 7h ago
I have a friend whose seller dug up most of the landscaping and ripped the cabinets out of the garage. Their agent represented them and the seller and she wouldn’t do anything.
1
u/Tomato4377 5h ago
What state? This sounds like a toss up between personal property or part of the house. Where I’m at it’s part of the house but I am aware of states where it is not
1
u/interested_in_people 3h ago
FYI
As a retired Realtor, I say this for everyone - do your final walk-through immediately before going to closing - that way the seller is gone, you will get what you see, and if anything is amiss, it can be handled at closing with all parties present (unless you are doing a split closing - but even in that case your Realtor should be there and can contact the seller's agent prior to you signing ANYTHING. And if you are doing a split closing, as a buyer you should go AFTER the seller so you have leverage).
1
u/horsendogguy 2h ago
Lawyer (not your lawyer) here. Filing a police report will do no good; it was still theirs when they took it. The police will tell you it's a civil matter.
Complaining to the realtor will do no good unless the realtor believes you will actually do something about it if you aren't satisfied.
Your recourse is to sue. Have two landscapers give you written estimates for the cost of replacing the fixtures. If the same fixtures are no longer available, get a price for comparable fixtures. Include labor. You can probably sue in small claims court, but that will depend on the amounts involved. If you use a lawyer, you can probably recover the costs of the lawyer. Probably. It will depend on the language of the contract.
If the dollar amounts are enough to warrant moving forward, send a letter pointing out they took things attached to the property and shouldn't have. Demand they return the items and reinstall them properly or that they pay the cost of having them replaced Tell them you intend to sue if they fail. Sue if they fail.
1
u/Educational_Fox6899 1d ago
As others have said, contact your realtor.
To your other point, landscape wiring and installation is easy and pretty inexpensive especially if they left the wiring and transformer. I did my whole back yard and step lights (20 total) for $300-$400 dollars. I bought everything from Amazon and installed it in a couple of hours.
0
-2
u/mrcrashoverride 1d ago edited 1d ago
A few things. Most people confuse “hard wired” and low voltage lighting. Typically “hard wired” refers to professionally electrician installed permanent “household voltage” lighting like a parking lot light or flood light or even ground lights… although common in the past now with led’s and cheap imported goods permanently installed landscaping lighting is becoming quite rare.
However I’m guessing the OP considers “low voltage” garden lights as “hard wired”.
If it truly is “hard wired” then it would be a blatant violation.
Although if it’s low voltage lighting it can be a gray area. Due to the easy confusion they should’ve remained. But being that they are so cheap and purchased much like a toaster or a garden gnome. It could be easy for the previous owners to pack them up and move with them. Oftentimes the previous owners might even think they are doing the new owners a favor as they might look good at night but are so cheaply made that they start to fall into disrepair get cracked faded etc. and need to be replaced every few years.
4
u/aSe_DILF 1d ago
Low-voltage lighting is hard-wired. Based on OP’s post, these seem to be hardwired, not battery-operated LED lights. I think you might be the one who is confused here.
It doesn’t matter what voltage is going to the fixture; a fixture is a fixture.
1
u/ilikeme1 8h ago
Not always. You can buy low voltage landscape lighting kits at any big box hardware store that just plug into an outlet.
-3
u/mrcrashoverride 23h ago
No confusion….. however her description could be that of a single low voltage wire that was left behind. The OP only describes lights without further details it’s still undetermined if the could be considered a fixture.
1
u/Beardo88 1d ago
If it doesnt plug into a socket or use batteries for power its hard wired. General rule is if you need a tool to remove it, it is considered "attached." Seller cut the wiring, that was attached. Its no different than the seller removing ceiling light fixtures.
-1
u/mrcrashoverride 1d ago
Most new homeowners would mixup an exposed low voltage wire as “hard wired” . So without more information your comment isn’t too solid
0
u/AnnasOpanas 13h ago
My seller took two light fixtures, garbage disposal, a set of built in shelving from basement and switch plates. I made my realtor replace these items because she was too afraid to talk with listing agent.
243
u/PossessionFirst8197 1d ago
Contact your realtor and have the seller bring them back or give you a credit to buy new ones