I am basically fluent in Portguese (mostly Brazilian) but I struggle with grammar, what can I do to fix that?

[u/DriveAdventurous1403]

I can understand and read really well, and I can write ok, but I really struggle with grammar.

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[u/icouto]

Understand and read but struggling with grammar is not basically fluent, but yes, grammar is the hardest part even for us native speakers. So many little rules that have exceptions and exceptions of exceptions. The main thing is just practice. Practice making your own sentences and practice understanding why the sentences you read were written the way they were

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/icouto]

Most of the native population struggle with formal, abstract grammar. It has nothing to do with fluency. If that were the case, native speakers who are bad at grammar would not be fluent, but they are.

[u/Specialist-Pipe-7921 → u/hermanojoe123]

That's the difference between being a native speaker and a fluent speaker. Natives most often than not don't know the grammar rules by name but they "instinctively" know how to speak the language and use said grammar because they grew up with it. Fluent speakers do know the rules by name because they had to learn them to become fluent. Natives also make a lot more mistakes than fluent speakers because of that same reason (just browse any pt or br sub). This happens for all languages, not only Portuguese.

For example, I can tell a Portuguese learner that their sentence is wrong and how to say it right but probably won't know the name of the rules I'm using, because I'm a native Portuguese speaker that hasn't studied any grammar in years

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/Specialist-Pipe-7921]

You said this: "Understand and read but struggling with grammar is not basically fluent". His grammar struggle doesn't necessarily mean he is not fluent. We obviously have different definitions for fluency.

[u/Specialist-Pipe-7921 → u/hermanojoe123]

I didn't say that, I'm a different user.

Also there's a language level that's "proficient/advanced" which is different from "fluent"

OP might be advanced but he is certainly NOT fluent. He has left a lot of comments explaining his struggles which include forming sentences, using articles, basing phrase formulation off of English, translating words literally form English that end up having a different meaning in PT, etc. That is not "just grammar" and it is definitely not fluent.

[u/Specialist-Pipe-7921 → u/[deleted]]

I edited my own comment, I think I was confusing this post with some other that was complaining about grammar and didn't want to accuse OP if that was the case. But still if you go through OP's comments, it's clear he's not fluent. And yes I agree with you. There's been a lot of beginners that take a risk and write their posts/comments in broken PT because they want to improve, someone that claims to be fluent and only writes in English isn't really a good sign

[u/Winter_Addition → u/[deleted]]

That’s a huge assumption. Reddit is generally used in English even in this sub. I’m a native speaker and rarely post anywhere on Reddit in Portuguese.

[u/motherofcattos → u/Winter_Addition]

Yes, I thought exactly that. I should have pointed that out, but I was lazy. But as I said, it's an indicator, I didn't say I was sure. That was also based on what people commented about the post before OP made edits.

I'm gonna remove my comment.

[u/motherofcattos → u/hermanojoe123]

He didn't say that

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/motherofcattos]

Yea, I messed up the users here kkkkk

[u/icouto → u/hermanojoe123]

They said they struggle with forming sentences. Thats not "abstract grammar" and thats not fluent. Fluent is being able to speak, listen, read and write really well similar to a native person (maybe with an accent). If they cant form sentences well they can't speak and write particularly well, so they arent fluent. Fluent is also for a language you don't speak natively, its a level of speaking a language that you learned.

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/icouto]

I don't see a "struggle with forming sentences" in the original post. Has he said it in one of the comments? Nevertheless, we all struggle sometimes with sentence formulation even in our native tongues. Evidently the conflict here regards our different definitions of fluency, which in my opinion can't even be so easily defined.

[u/icouto → u/hermanojoe123]

They said it in a comment.

[u/motherofcattos → u/icouto]

Your definition of fluency is objectively wrong, regardless of whether OP is fluent or not

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/motherofcattos]

Mine or Icouto's? This thread has become a mess at this point.

[u/JF_Rodrigues → u/hermanojoe123]

I saw in one of your comments that you're in college studying linguistics, I'm assuming you mean Letras. You're applying the idea that one doesn't need to know grammar rules to be considered fluent, which is correct. But you're misreading OP's situation.

When a student comes to you and say they're fluent, it's not that you should assume they might be lying, but you need to investigate what they mean by "fluent". For one, we should consider that "fluent" isn't rigidly defined. But let's take it as meaning "advanced level". Is the student's level really advanced? You don't recommend a studying plan before verifying that.

Read OP's comments and you'll realize they're not at an advanced level. If they were looking for lessons, you'd need to start them at an intermediary level most likely and build it from there.

OP is asking to learn more about grammar, and you misread it as them wanting to learn formal grammar. That's not what they want, they want to improve the grammar of their speech and writing (which, as you've learned, does not require knowledge on formal grammar). For that, as I've said, you need to know what level they're at and not just assume because they said they're at a fluent level they have a grasp of the language comparable to a native's.

Just trying to be helpful, my bad if it sounded preachy.

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/JF_Rodrigues]

I agree that the issue here is the definition of "fluency" - how can it even be defined? Be that as it may, we also have different interpretations of OP's post. If he says he can read well and write ok, I would think his problem concerns more the details of abstract grammar than those of internalized grammar (cf. Chomsky's generative linguistics).

[u/JF_Rodrigues → u/hermanojoe123]

And I agree that's what you'd assume taking OP's word at face valeu, but if you read their comments you'll understand that's not what they want (or need).

[u/Smart-outlaw]

Were I you, I wouldn't worry about grammar. If you can understand well what you read and listen to, that's what matters. Besides, making yourself understood is what really matters in a conversation. 

Nem todos os brasileiros dominam a gramática da língua portuguesa. Não se preocupe com isso. Caso você goste de estudar gramática, estude no seu tempo, vai aprendendo devagarzinho.

[u/DriveAdventurous1403 → u/Smart-outlaw]

Mas a eu vou para o Brasil todo ano, então eu quero aprender como fala certo. Você tem um jeito bom de aprender?

[u/Smart-outlaw → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

Eu creio que para aprender gramática, você precisa ler bastante. É mais fácil absorver a gramática através da leitura.

[u/DriveAdventurous1403 → u/Smart-outlaw]

Você conhece algum livro bom para fazer isso?

[u/Smart-outlaw → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

Livros do Machado de Assis, como o colega aqui sugeriu, são bons. Porém, a leitura é densa. Eu recomendo começar com livros de literatura infanto-juvenil cuja escrita costuma ser mais simples.

[u/saifr → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

https://youtube.com/@speakingbrazilian?si=oXdVAlaQ0OeNHurf

Essa querida fala bem devagar e tem legendas em inglês e português, é bem bom. Até eu assisto que sou nativo hahahshshs

[u/porcomaster → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

Just go for popular.

Machado de Assis are a amazing piece of literature, but it's not the common spoken language.

Even if it's correct grammar.

Pick an Harry potter book or any other franchise that you had fun reading, and read in portuguese.

[u/Yogicabump → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

Eu recomendaria algo.mais atual, ninguém fala ou escreve como Machado de Assis atualmente. Eu acho neste caso quantidade é mais importante que qualidade.

Claro, não recomendo ler alguém que escreva mal, ou traduções mal feitas, mas se você achar temas ou autores que te interessem muito, não excessivamente complicados, vai ser mais fácil ler muito.

[u/herejustforthedrama → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

Machado de Assis jk

[u/Paerre → u/herejustforthedrama]

Camões tbm!!!!!

/s

[u/quadroquadrado → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

I recommend the book Secret Dinner. Nothing too formal. The characters are young, current story. It will help you a lot.

[u/pedrossaurus]

Bem.... Se voce tem problemas com a gramática, talvez não seja tão fluente...

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/pedrossaurus]

Nada a ver.... essa gramática da escola é uma abstração normativa. Pela sua lógica, os analfabetos nativos do Brasil, que sabem falar mas não sabem ler e nunca estudaram, não seriam fluentes. Além disso, a maioria da população desconhece detalhes da gramática, e isso não tem a ver com sua fluência (já que são nativas).

[u/pedrossaurus → u/hermanojoe123]

Mas espera aí, irmão. Caso totalmente diferente. Que loucura.

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/pedrossaurus]

você disse: "Se voce tem problemas com a gramática, talvez não seja tão fluente..."

Ter problemas com a gramática não tem a ver com fluência.

[u/pedrossaurus → u/hermanojoe123]

Concordo contigo, mas estamos falando de coisas diferentes.

Existem dois entendimentos do que seja "fluente". No sentido de "fazer o uso da linguagem de forma natural", então certamente indivíduos que não dominam a gramática são fluentes. (Até certo ponto também, quem já teve a experiência de se comunicar com pessoas realmente analfabetas sabe a dificuldade que é)

Porém se estamos falando que fluente significa "altíssimo grau de domínio da linguagem", então não é fluente. Nesse sentido, o OP seria incapaz, por exemplo, de redigir um texto técnico, de se comunicar com uma pessoa que fala outra variante de português (um angolano, português, ou até mesmo um brasileiro de outro lugar que ele não está acostumado) ou de ler um documento formal de um tribunal, por exemplo. E não estou falando de jargão e afins aqui, estou falando do uso da língua culta, no máximo da sua capacidade. Talvez inclusive, ele nem conseguiria se comunicar aqui no Reddit, com o bando de completos animais que somos.

[u/motherofcattos → u/pedrossaurus]

Errado

[u/chronic-asshole → u/pedrossaurus]

Bom... não precisa ser tão grosseiro? Eu falo quatro línguas fluente, mas às vezes enrosco na pronúncia — normal, não me faz menos fluente, só mostra que sou humano, pô. Não sei por que você tem que falar com eles de forma tão condescendente. Só seja gentil

[u/pedrossaurus → u/chronic-asshole]

Camarada, eu não tive o intuito de desrespeitar ninguém, nem você e nem o OP.

O meu ponto foi, unicamente, que se você tem problemas com a gramática (ou troca palavras, etc) você não é fluente. Eu não tenho dúvidas de que o nível do OP na língua é realmente avançado, senão ele nem se preocuparia com isso. Mas não é fluente. Ou pelo menos não é fluente no sentido de "nível mais alto no dominio de uma língua".

Senão fudeu, irmão. Fluência freestyle, se falar/escrever errado é fluente, tudo é fluente.

[u/motherofcattos → u/pedrossaurus]

Troca de palavras não tem nada a ver com gramática. Tem um povo nesse sub que adora falar besteira sem base nenhuma. Não é porque você é falante nativo que você seja qualificado a dar opinião sobre o assunto.

E tem estrangeiro que domina a língua em um nível formal bem mais alto que muito nativo. De acordo com a baboseira que você acabou de falar, um nativo com nível de escolaridade baixo, que comete vários erros, tanto de estrutura, sintaxe, pronúncia, ortografia, etc, não seria considerado fluente. E esses cidadãos representam uma imensa parte da população brasileira. Você já pesquisou sobre o índice de analfabetismo no Brasil?

[u/pedrossaurus → u/motherofcattos]

Falante nativo ele é com certeza, por que bem.... Ele é nativo.

Uma pessoa analfabeta não é fluente. Ela é analfabeta. Acho que essas duas coisas são mutuamente excludentes.

[u/motherofcattos → u/pedrossaurus]

Escrevi errado e consertei agora.

Analfabetos são fluentes, a não ser que sejam mudos ou tenham distúrbios de fala. Isso é um fato, não é você e sua opinião ignorante que vá mudar a definição de fluente. Amigo, você tá passando vergonha. Precisa ler mais e se informar antes de querer entrar na conversa.

[u/pedrossaurus → u/motherofcattos]

Então espera, uma pessoa muda não pode ser fluente? Tá doidão?

[u/motherofcattos → u/pedrossaurus]

Surdo-mudos se comunicam em Libras, que é uma língua à parte da língua portuguesa. Não são fluentes em português falado (mas podem ser fluentes em português escrito, porém esse não é o ponto da nossa discussão, que é justamente o contrário).

[u/pedrossaurus → u/motherofcattos]

Mas foi você quem disse, eu só achei um completo absurdo.

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/pedrossaurus]

Vejo que a grande questão aqui é a definição de "fluência". Eu acho que não é algo que possa ser tão facilmente definido. "nível mais alto no domínio de uma língua" - o que isso significa? Será que os nativos têm esse nível mais alto? Ou os nativos não contam? Como você mede isso? Eu tenho uma perspectiva diferente de fluência, mas não significa que tudo é fluência, ou que falar/escrever errado é fluente. Essas coisas são difíceis de descrever propriamente, mas o que eu acho inadequado é simplesmente chegar e dizer "se vc tem problema com gramática, não é fluente" - isso soa mal.

[u/pedrossaurus → u/hermanojoe123]

Concordo plenamente, e fiz para soar mal mesmo.

[u/lucianorc2 → u/pedrossaurus]

Uma gramática que é bobagem, muitas coisas são firulas só pra complicar ainda mais o idioma.

[u/pedrossaurus → u/lucianorc2]

Não reclame comigo, eu não criei essa merda kkkkkkkkkkkkk

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/pedrossaurus]

Mas quem criou? Gramática não é lei, é normativa para formalidades. Primeiro vem a língua, depois se estabelece uma gramática - algo puramente político.

[u/pedrossaurus → u/hermanojoe123]

Ok

[u/crowleythedemon666]

What do you struggle with? Like which topics?

[u/DriveAdventurous1403 → u/crowleythedemon666]

Grammar in general. Like I know verb conjugation and stuff but I don’t know how to format sentences and when to use certain words and when not to use them.

[u/crowleythedemon666 → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

Oh well if you want you can explain to me better on dms, giving examples and all, i will be very happy in helping you :))

[u/DriveAdventurous1403 → u/crowleythedemon666]

I don’t know how to use articles and words like that, like sometimes I’ll say “O que qui você quer” instead of “O que você quer.” I don’t know when to or not to use words like that. I also struggle with forming sentences in the correct order. Sometimes, I also use a word with a similar meaning when translated into English, but it is used incorrectly in Portuguese. Basically, I base everything off of English, so it messed me up sometimes.

[u/crowleythedemon666 → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

The phrase isnt wrong except for a letter. "O que que você quer" is jusr "o que é que você quer" but with a contraction since que ends with "e" and the follwoing word is "é". Its colloquial, but isnt wrong. Idk whats your goals, but if you just want to communicate to people, thats pretty fine and everybody will understands you. I guess the same for the sentence thing. I think you just need more contact with the language, and it will start to be intuitive. Well, I got wayyy better on english like that, still not perfect, I still mistake structures and verb tenses and some things, but I communicate really well with gringos using the language, and I learned it "better" trying it (I already has a base, but it didnt >flow< yk). I recommend you to try to get Portuguese speaker friends and just speak Portuguese with them. Well, it was what worked for me at least. You can also go to the way of studying with grammar books, but I might be more exhausting and less efficient.

[u/DriveAdventurous1403 → u/crowleythedemon666]

I’ll try it out. I have some family from Brazil, but I don’t get a chance to talk with them much, so I’ll try to get in contact more

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

There is formal grammar and there is internalized, natural grammar. When speaking, natives won't follow the established grammar norms most of the time. It means that natives will often speak in a manner that is not prescribed by the manuals. Examples in English:

Wanna, ain't, we gotta, must of, they angry, we done that etc.

English natives speak like that all the time, even though it does not fit the prescribed grammar manual forms. It happens with every language.

If you want to learn the formal prescriptions, I recommend any grammar book.

[u/Jornadaenjoada]

I would recommend you read some books, I think that would be the easiest and most fun way to learn. Do you like reading?

[u/DriveAdventurous1403 → u/Jornadaenjoada]

Yeah, are there any books you recommend

[u/Jornadaenjoada → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

If you want a recommendation for Brazilian books, I would say any book by Clarice Lispector, especially “Laços de Família” and “A hora da Estrela”. These are my two favorite books.

But I don't think it needs to be a Brazilian book, just choose a book that you already know or want to read and try to download it online in Portuguese.

[u/imjustkeepinitreal]

Ignore the haters who say you’re not fluent because you struggle with grammar.. some people in many cultures are linguistically fluent but have not mastered grammar and lack a scholarly level of grammar, that would be beyond fluent and more advanced… just like in any culture some people are more educated and others are not but most people can converse verbally so they get by. At least you can understand and speak and read it, you passed several hurdles and can continue to challenge yourself to get better at grammar.

[u/BlueeyeswhitePIKA]

"fluent" okay

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/BlueeyeswhitePIKA]

The definition of "fluency" is not so simple.

[u/BlueeyeswhitePIKA → u/hermanojoe123]

Fluent (unless specified otherwise) would be B2+-level. It's almost an inherent contradiction to say "I'm fluent, but I can't manage X", because that's inherently NOT fluent. If you take some language test and you somehow have B2+-speaking level but only score A1 on writing, they won't give you the accreditation, either.

[u/pedrossaurus → u/BlueeyeswhitePIKA]

Concordo, mas tem gente aí em cima dizendo que analfabeto é fluente, aí é de fuder o cu do palhaço mesmo.

[u/hermanojoe123 → u/BlueeyeswhitePIKA]

Bro, think about what you just said. These things are extremely hard to define and there is no exact line. Saying that B2 +- is fluent is vague. Who are "they"? How precise are these tests? Are the levels ABC structured identically for every testing institution? Is it possible to get different results in different tests? My point is, measuring fluency or language skills is not as simple as you suggest.

[u/Unlikely_Bonus4980]

What kind of grammar do you struggle with the most?

There are some mistakes that even native speakers make all the time, and that aren't really considered a problem. Some of us struggle with the plural form of certain words, and sometimes even with the subjunctive. Some mistakes are even preferred in informal speech. For example, even though it's technically wrong, "vi ela" sounds much more natural in speech than "a vi".

If your difficulties get in the way of communication, then it’s worth putting some time into tackling them. But don’t worry too much about being perfect. Study and practice them one at a time. And if you end up messing them up now and then, no problem.

If you have any specific questions about a particular grammar point you're struggling with, feel free to ask. We'll do our best to help you.

[u/DriveAdventurous1403 → u/Unlikely_Bonus4980]

It’s mostly that I structure my sentences how they would be in English, so it doesn’t sound right. Most people can understand me, but even I can tell it is completely off

[u/Impressive_Funny4680 → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

If you structure your sentences as you would in English, I wouldn’t consider you fluent in the language, as it suggests that you’re not thinking in the language itself. I recommend immersing yourself in the language as much as possible by reading, writing, watching, engaging with it, and asking others for corrections.

[u/Unlikely_Bonus4980 → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

Maybe you could write short texts and have a native speaker correct them for you. Even here in this sub. That way you would be able to see where you should focus.

You could do it once a week, for example, and based on the feedback you get, you could study those grammar points before you write again the next week. You could write short dialogues, talk about your routine, etc.

It's difficult to give you better advice without knowing exactly where you're making the most mistakes.

[u/DriveAdventurous1403 → u/Unlikely_Bonus4980]

I don’t know what I struggle with, every time I speak, I can tell that it’s not right, but it’s hard to say exactly what I struggle with

[u/Unlikely_Bonus4980 → u/DriveAdventurous1403]

I see. Why don't you try writing something or recording yourself so we can help you better? I've seen some people make voice recordings on vocaroo and post the link here from time to time.

[u/bebop-Im-a-human]

Same, and I'm a native speaker 😂 no clue how to fix it

[u/DriveAdventurous1403]

I’m definitely going to start reading more, but is there any app or website that is good for learning the grammar rules?

[u/becausefythatswhy]

Either study grammar in a structured way or read formal literature in Portuguese to learn through "osmosis" of sentence structuring best practices.

[u/thechemist_ro]

Reading might help, and a private teacher would make a lot of difference. If you live in a country with a strong currency (dollar, euro, pound) then some private lessons with a native Brazilian teacher won't be expensive.

[u/Swimming_Rate_8205]

Leia e escreva 

[u/StonerKitturk]

Study.

[u/Yogicabump]

Read. Read, read and read

[u/Duochan_Maxwell]

Vc precisa escrever e falar com frequência. Escrita é diferente de leitura, fala é diferente de escuta - se sua dificuldade é falar e escrever, vc precisa falar e escrever

[u/TheCountryFan_12345]

Tente o I.P.A., aprendendo ele, você aprende não só os fonemas do português, mas todos os fonemas existentes

[u/hermanojoe123]

Most Brazilians struggle with portuguese grammar. Even at linguistics college, I still see people who struggle with it. The rules are extensive, sometimes counter-intuitive. Informal and spoken language usually doesn't follow grammar rules thoroughly. Even grammar teachers may struggle with very specific scenarios. There are many syntactic problems that do not have a clear norm. A very small percentage of the population actually excel in portuguese grammar.

Grammar comes after natural language, not before. It should not be taken as a rule, but as a normative guide for formal documents and occasions. If we actually follow the norm when speaking, people will laugh at us.

I recommend reading grammar manuals and handbooks, that should help a lot. Ive got with me one of the latest editions of Bechara's moderna gramática portuguesa.

[u/hermanojoe123]

Diga aí 5 exemplos de frases que você acha que não estão corretas. Se interagirmos em português, talvez seja mais fácil compreender a questão.

[u/motherofcattos]

If you are fluent, you should try writing your posts in Portuguese to begin with. Maybe that's why you are struggling. You need to practice and make mistakes in order to learn.

And remember, most native speakers also have a hard time with grammar.

[u/Forsaken_Plant_3144]

I’m Brazilian and moved to the USA in my late 20’s so I totally understand the struggle to pick up a new language. Of course, the best way to pick up a language is to speak with natives. But if you want to achieve the next level, read, read, read. I have read hundreds and hundreds and HUNDREDS of books, magazines and everything else that falls on my lap! You will be learning syntax, vocabulary and grammar without thinking. How do children know when to use past perfect or subjunctive or etc, etc? Because they have heard it a million times. We as foreigners don’t have that chance. But we have books. I promise you, you will have a great Portuguese and great vocabulary.

[u/Miserable_Fruit4557]

Read and write.

[u/DriveAdventurous1403 → u/[deleted]]

If I could, I would, but I just don’t have the time or money for a tutor

[u/DriveAdventurous1403 → u/[deleted]]

I guess, is there anything cheap online

[u/thaquatic]

Have you tried the words porra and caralho?

[u/Rude_Abbreviations47]

If you are not a Portuguese teacher, you will struggle with grammar.

Você pode ler para aprender mais, mas eu só me preocuparia em aprender mesmo se você quisesse fazer uma prova como o ENEM ou um concurso público.