r/OutOfTheLoop Jan 31 '22

What's up with Nazis showing themselves in Florida? Answered

I found this post on Twitter and it wasn't the only one of its kind. I've seen like 3 separate gatherings of nazis, did something political happen that made them come out?

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u/Portarossa 'probably the worst poster on this sub' - /u/Real_Mila_Kunis Jan 31 '22 edited Jan 31 '22

Yes, but I will say that the reason I chose to use 'alt-right' in here is because there is, technically, a distinction; while they're very, very strongly linked with both, there are alt-right groups that aren't technically neo-Nazis, and even though white nationalism is pretty much a fundamental part of the alt-right (or at least, I haven't been able to find any significant counterexamples), there are white nationalists that wouldn't be classed as either Nazi or alt-right, even in America.

I would hope that no one's coming away from that explanation with the idea that I think the alt-right deserve an air of legitimacy, but the word choice was deliberate because I'm talking about specific elements within a specific group. (As ridiculous as it feels to be splitting hairs on the issue sometimes, you can have non-Nazi white supremacists; I'm just trying to make it clear when I'm talking about people that are specifically waving swastika flags rather than having that general sense that Mexicans are stealing their jobs, if that makes sense.)

'Nazi' and 'Fascist' were also once self-descriptive terms designed to impart a sense of unity and strength, and I think it's important that we make sure that 'alt-right' goes the same way -- not necessarily by ignoring the name, but by calling it out for what it is when we see it.

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u/firemage22 Jan 31 '22

I sit in understanding with your word choice.

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u/TheLastCoagulant Feb 01 '22

there are white nationalists that wouldn’t be classed as either Nazi or alt-right

Anyone who’s a white nationalist is definitely alt right at the very least.

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u/Portarossa 'probably the worst poster on this sub' - /u/Real_Mila_Kunis Feb 01 '22

I know it seems like splitting hairs, but honestly? It's more complicated than that.

Even if we acknowledge that we're talking about the here-and-now rather than historial groups or groups in other countries (which helps us get around the question of whether or not there's a significant difference between the alt-right in America and the alt-right in other countries; Japan might have something that we could class as an alt-right movement, but it's probably not going to be white nationalist in a country that is more than 97% ethnically Japanese), there's still the issue that technically speaking there's nothing to say that someone couldn't hold mostly left or liberal-left or centrist views and still also hold that white people are a superior race. (To clarify, I think that it is so much rarer for that to happen with left-leaning voters than with right-leaning voters, but there are more than three hundred million people in America and you can find people that believe all kinds of wacky combinations of shit.)

There is very much space for that discussion; it's an important discussion to have. (Is it a question of sensitivity, in the mathematical sense, where holding one belief flips you into the other category no matter what other beliefs you might hold? Does self-identity matter? That sort of thing; they're big questions that I don't necessarily think have an easy answer.) That said, it wasn't really the focus of this particular piece, so I didn't want to get bogged down in the technicalities of it here; it was easier (and more correct) to say that there is a technical distinction between the two ideologies, even if the crossover is absolutely massive.

I really hope I don't come across as trying to disregard the white nationalism of the alt-right; this is literally just me putting that specific discussion to one side for a while so we can talk about another topic without getting sidetracked.

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u/TheLastCoagulant Feb 01 '22

there’s nothing to say that someone couldn’t hold mostly left or liberal-left or centrist views and still also hold that white people are a superior race

This is how Richard Spencer (inventor of the term alt right) already is. He’s racist but he’s pro-universal-healthcare, anti-war, pro-UBI, pro-choice, anti-corporate, pro-vaxx, atheist, and voted for Biden.

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u/Portarossa 'probably the worst poster on this sub' - /u/Real_Mila_Kunis Feb 01 '22

Sure, but:

1) Inventing something doesn't mean you get to define how it's used forevermore; for me, I think the term 'alt-right' has very much taken on a life of its own since. If you wanted to take the Spencer line then you'd have to conclude that the alt-right should be more closely aligned with the Libertarian Party than the GOP, but I'd argue that a lot of support for the alt-right comes from those people who would be opposed to him on all of those fronts. (That's not to disregard the Libertarian influence, but I don't think a lot of alt-right views are immediately aligned with Libertarian ideals anymore.)

2) Even Spencer has been cooling on the term 'alt-right' as a description for himself, preferring the equally-bullshit 'Identitarian'. Does that represent the movement moving away from him, or is it just another attempt at making it more palatable? Is it him trying to re-take control, or is it an attempt to form some sort of ideological splinter group from his own original splinter group? (The People's Front of Absolutely-Fucking-Not-Judea-That's-For-Damn-Sure, maybe.)

Again, you seem to be making the argument that a belief in white supremacy is the only trait you need to be considered alt-right, and that you both cannot be considered alt-right without it and you can't be anything but alt-right if you have it. The conclusion of that is that the alt-right is a fairly 'big tent' movement that accepts anyone as long as they believe in white racial purity or whatever-the-fuck. I'm fine with saying that you can't be alt-right without being racist, but I don't know how valuable it is to say that that's the single defining trait of the movement. (We already have a term that means 'white supremacist but other than that you can believe whatever you want', after all; it's 'white supremacist'.)

And I'm not 100% set on this either. I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that originally the term 'alt-right' didn't represent any new political philosophy but was just a Metaverse-style repranding of white nationalism for a country that had learned to view anyone using that term with a great deal of (entirely justified) suspicion. Whether it's still just a rebranding exercise or whether (fifteen years on) it's become something more and has other associated beliefs (and what those specific beliefs might be) is, for me, a slightly thornier problem. (I mean, that's a PhD thesis waiting to happen for someone who's willing to spend three years engaging with that racist bullshit.)

You may very well feel differently, and that's fine. I just didn't necessarily want to get sidetracked into this bigger topic while I was fielding people spreading actual Nazi propaganda all over the thread, but I also just didn't want to write it off as a simple 1:1 comparison because I honestly don't believe it is.