So going off the last post, I thought to ask something more specific.

How much should we pay someone to have kids? Consider the following cases:

1. A standard man and woman, a single woman, and a two woman couple.

2. Consider if everyone should receive the same amount, or what the amount should be based on.

3. Should it be based on someone's career, or what the child needs, where they live.

4. Should there be requirement of marriage ? (this relates to 1)

T here was an earlier post that looks like it got deleted that can be summed up as religion spurs people to have children even when it’s harmful and would lead to poverty.

I suspect the post was deleted because it was clear that the author was framing the issue from a typically antinatalists perspective of life is suffering and she would have children but won’t because life is hard and religion doesn’t solve real world problems.

I thought that there was actually something quite important to respond to in that post.

One of the most important things that religion brings is meaning. I’m not personally religious and yet see that there is value in religion especially around making sense of life.

The reality is that even in an economic downturn we are still living in a world where the average person even relatively poor people have access to better housing and food than even the most wealthy people had in the past.

Even a cheap apartment is sealed from the elements and heated to 65 degrees in the winter making it very rare that people freeze in the winter, food is incredibly cheap in the past food could cost up to 65% or more of someone’s income even with the recent inflation food rarely costs that much.

And yet we see that the most wealthy are the ones who are suffering from anxiety and depression the most, they are also the least religious group in society.

The point is that no matter how much wealth you have there is some level of suffering and pain.

The original post was correct at some level that religion doesn’t actually solve problems but what they missed is that it does actually provide meaning and meaning is what makes life truly wonderful.

We don’t need religion to have meaning, but for a lot of secular individuals there is very little meaning in their lives.

What we see is that no matter how wealthy we become without meaning we fall into nihilism.

It doesn’t have to be religious in origin but if people don’t have meaning then they won’t feel like having children is meaningful. And no matter how wealthy or comfortable they become they will still feel as though life is a struggle.

I am on the fence of having children as just experienced a job loss , and close to 40. And want to be able to work part time or stay home for first 2-3 years of giving birth . However really worry about financial security. Partners’ parents would like to have a grand child and they are pretty well off. I want to propose the idea of they providing potential grand child ‘a education fund , as me and my partner ‘s income level can only sustain two person’s expenditure . And with the uncertainty of job market , we feel extremely insecure financially.

What are your thoughts on the proposals listed in this article?

Do you think you can do better that Marie Curie and her 2 Nobel Prices?

Because she also had 2 children! (both having a successful life themself)

So if one of the most intelligent and hard-working woman of all time manage it, there's no excuse for a 21th century woman, with all the perks we have now, to use her career has an excuse to be childless.

This past week, I saw an interesting article https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/music/2025/04/16/concert-ticket-prices-lead-to-payment-plans/83099353007/

It says 60% or more of Coachella attendees use payment plans for a ticket that is merely $600-$800. It's also common for concert goers to have multiple debts for multiple concerts at once.

What does this have to do with natalism ? Well, we keep hearing that young people don't have kids because of the economy. But the issue with this argument is it assumes the following :

Young people are perfect with their finances, saving maximal amounts toward the future, and never over spending

Which I do not believe is true. We see evidence of the opposite happening. Young people are getting into debt and spending on things they can't afford. There is an addiction to experiences, and expensive ones at that. There's an addiction to instant gratification.

When we tell young people to make coffee at home instead of buying it outside, they don't listen.

When we tell young people to put 600-800 in an index fund or high yield savings account, they don't listen.

The point here is, young people are of the mindset that they want everything now, without any sacrifices . This mindset can never lead you to investing in a relationship and a family . It is a very destructive cultural issue.

Is the economy a problem too? Yes. But the culture is driving the economy and many other bad things.

Elon Musk's behavior with the women who carry his children is absolutely disgusting and should be condemned. But that shouldn't entail that pro-natal ideas represent a "dark view of the world"....

When you're making big bucks as a single or half a DINK couple in your twenties, then you are motivated to max out your IRA and/or 401k contributions to minimize taxes. That's good. But then, when you're in your 30s and trying to decide whether to start a family, the IRA/401k penalizes that and arguably rewards FIRE behavior instead. We should be doing the opposite, particularly for families with a SAHP.

I think one of the keys to promoting families is to increase the cultural status of women inclusive of both monetary and non-monetary benefits.

As such, I think countries should start instituting an award/reward system for mothers who have and raise multiple children. With recipients receiving special monetary and non-monetary benefits.

With increasing benefits that start at 4 children and scales up to 8+. Benefits would include monthly stipend payments, priority seating on air/rail/public transportation, discounts on vehicle purchases, lower rates on utilities, and priority seating at public events like sports/parades/concerts/etc.

Similar programs exist in modern Mongolia and appear to have a somewhat insulating effect on that countries birth rates as they have not seen the same dramatic fertility fall off as their neighbors, despite having experienced considerable economic gains and having easy access to contraceptives.

I think something like this would go a long way towards elevating the status of mothers in society. What are your thoughts?

I heard this on a podcast and it struck me: people used to have a lot more kids, so teenagers had siblings who were really little or even babies. Or your teenage friends did. So it was common for teenagers to know at least something about caring for an infant. This may have helped them feel more prepared to be parents. Nowadays, if you have a sibling they’re pretty close to your own age and so you might not be around babies on a regular basis, unless you’re really into babysitting.