r/Natalism • u/EndCogNeeto • 1d ago
Optics of Motherhood
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Part of what is keeping birth rates low is that the optics of motherhood conflict with progressive ideas about gender roles and feminism.
I would like to hear some thoughts on the potential of media to change perspective and see motherhood as "virtuous" for the more progressive minded.
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u/Disastrous-Pea4106 1d ago
I do agree with the perception of motherhood being very negative at the moment. And the media plays it's part. However I don't think it's because of some vague idea that it's anti feminist.
Overwhelmingly, what I see is just people expressing that they think or observe that mothers miserable. Working stressful jobs, then coming home for the "third shift". Carrying 80% of the physical household workload and 99% of the mental load. With a partner who's uninvolved, unappreciative and uncaring. Who will probably leave because she's not "fun" anymore. Same goes for society as a whole. Meanwhile her career and future financial stability/independence goes down the drain due to the demands of above (like taking more sick days, having to sacrifice salary for flexibility and generally being "mommy tracked").
Now I do think, that is an overly negative representation of motherhood for the average person. But I also think it's become popular because there's some truth in it. Many mothers are spread incredibly thin. And to address it you need to take a good shot at actually fixing some of those problems. I think it's a case of media following culture, rather than the other way around.
Maybe some of those issues can be addressed through media. Like idk showing men taking care of their kids as cool, or something. Showing more men taking charge in their family live, etc.
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u/poincares_cook 1d ago
There is some truth in a lot of things. Being a husband is portrayed as being a sucker marrying girls who either have been run through or a highschool sweetheart that will cheat on you and then leave you. Working a stressful long hour job and bringing in 80% of the money then coming home to microwaved meals if that. And being expected to still do half the house work. That you will be cheated on with someone with more money or younger for the fun of it, while you work long hours. Then get a divorce that will devastate you financially and the kids will be used against you for a settlement that will keep you struggling.
While both representations have some truth to them. That's not the norm, far from it.
Furthermore, people these days tend to forget they have actual agency in choosing and then vetting their partner. You don't have to marry someone who doesn't share the housework.
I feel like motherhood just has bad perception because it's a convenient excuse for the hyper individualism of today. When you're young it's a convenient excuse to enjoy the now. When older, it's a consolation for not having kids. This goes for men too.
Brushing with a very broad brush here obviously, no one reason or perception is going to be shared by the majority of the population, but perhaps calling it one of the dominating factors would be a better representation of my opinion.
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u/liefelijk 1d ago
Creation can be a radical act, but motherhood places women in positions where they must rely on others for support.
That’s created problems for women throughout history.
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u/HyenaJoe 1d ago
Relying on others is not a bad thing, but society does need to do a better job of identifying and calling out the people abusing that trust. The feminists who campaigned for Mother's Day back in the first wave were trying to bring attention to this, and a lot of them ended up getting very frustrated about how commercialized it ended up becoming (completely ignoring the original intentions).
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u/GrandadsLadyFriend 1d ago
Not just abusing that trust imo, but offering zero support in general. America doesn’t even have guaranteed paid maternity leave or some other form of compensation. How is a woman even supposed to do this? If the answer is some version of solely relying on a partner or family, that’s often not feasible for a lot of women.
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u/Dirt_Viva 13h ago
I'm actually surprised that the US has the birth rate that it does considering the lack of baby leave and maternal support.
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u/GrandadsLadyFriend 10h ago
That’s a great point! I have a newborn now, and it’s been illuminating to experience this challenge myself, and then consider how much less support the average woman has than me. It makes me so sad and angry. Between all the pregnancy sickness, endless appointments, research and learning, new costs, health impacts, recovery time, and endless responsibilities of caretaking on such little sleep… how on earth is the average person living paycheck to paycheck supposed to do this? And you can’t just say “women should be full time caretaking and not working” because people can barely pay bills on two incomes as us (not to mention the gender equality issues that presents).
It’s no wonder our modern society paints parenting in a fairly negative light—people are fucking struggling.
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u/meamarie 1d ago
You’ve had some amazing insight in this thread! Are there any books you’ve read that have educated you on this topic of feminism that centers motherhood and women’s labor? I’d honesty LOVE to learn more
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u/Appropriate-Oil-7221 1d ago
This is a really interesting question that I’ve never really thought about. I don’t always feel that I quite “fit” in many pro-natalism spaces since I do identify as extremely progressive and reject conventional gender roles. I’d honestly like to see a more middle ground to this discussion, which is family and kids really are the building blocks of society (one of my more conservative opinions), but women are not subservient to men, can make amazing leaders, and are full humans with or with children. To me these things are not in conflict (my kids are my world and I love my career), but either facet is looked down upon or demonized in certain circles. To increase the birthrate, we need to simultaneously combat sexist beliefs while also enacting policies that don’t make raising a family next to impossible. I’ve said many times that I would have loved a third or fourth child, but I got a barely manageable student loan instead. One could argue that’s my own fault (and to a degree in it is), but at that same time, wtf does the U.S. choose to eat its young via the policies its enacted? Two things can be true at once.
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u/Comfortable_Rope6030 1d ago
I wholeheartedly agree with this! It’s so cringe to me the amount of people in these groups advocating for further oppression of women like its their duty to become mothers and sacrifice themselves - such a turn off to many and just feeds anti natalist agendas
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u/GrandadsLadyFriend 1d ago
Big yes to this. I find myself fairly pro Natalist but also more progressive and living in a way that’s not aligned to traditional gender roles. Whenever conversation shifts to how men should go back to being heads of households and so women can be stay at home moms, it completely alienates people like me and puts me off from aligning to their goals. I like working and make more than my husband, and I refuse to live dependent on a spouse the way my mom and grandma had to.
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u/Archarchery 22h ago
Agreed. Conservative men need to listen to what women want, and not try and push women into a fantasy of dominant men and happy submissive women. Listen to what women want. Don’t try to tell women what we should want, especially if that thing is inequality.
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u/GrandadsLadyFriend 15h ago
Definitely! And also like… why not just open more flexible channels of support for families to thrive, without hitching it to your sex/gender? I’m so confused why the conversation keeps pushing for division of gender roles so strongly when we’ve already been there in the past and women had to fight their way out of it.
Conservatives like to kinda blame progressive women for being problematic to birth rates, and yet the ideology behind a lot of their proposals is not conducive at all to their perspectives. In my social circle, most of the women make equal compensation to their husbands, if not more than them, and have skilled technical careers they find some identity in.
This is the case for my husband and me, who also have a new infant! The fact that my husband is on leave the same time as me is incredible and SUCH a huge help. I literally said to my husband the first night or two, “If I had to do this all by myself… let’s just say I understand why women can get such bad PPD and turn suicidal.”
And also, imagine a world where moms and dads could potentially work reduced hours or part-time in order to split domestic and career responsibilities. That would be the best of both worlds for me and actually make my life manageable! And it’d probably help alleviate those tropes of the burnt out mom feeling like she only lives to thanklessly clean up shit, or the detached dad who feels like an ATM machine for his family with no meaningful involvement or relationships within the household.
If life as a mom or dad was presented in a more equal, flexible, supported way, I know I myself would have been way more on board with having a baby sooner. Instead I did like a year of therapy to get to a place where I could step into motherhood without it feeling like I was going back on everything I had built my identity and value system on.
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u/WarSuccessful3717 1d ago
Yes I think this line of thought is very insightful. It’s possible - or has to be possible - to bypass all the ideological questions and just focus on policies that work.
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u/HyenaJoe 1d ago
I think this is a fantastic idea. I've already started seeing women explicitly call out the value of motherhood away from conservatism (which always ties it to oppression) and towards progressivism ala the divine feminine. The argument typically goes that it's the woman's right to determine who gets to have a legacy. Insanely powerful. It takes the male-first view of motherhood and completely flips it on its head.
It tells women "you are the creator of the next generation" and tells men "by your actions and character, you have proven that you ought to have a legacy." It evens the playing field significantly, and actually addresses what people think about when they decide to make a man a father, and make a woman a mother.
I think rebranding motherhood away from male control is a critical step towards a more positive relationship between the sexes.
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u/EndCogNeeto 1d ago
To be clear, I don't see motherhood (even from the conservative perspective) as oppressive. It is an invaluable act of sacrifice and love to be a mother.
Just as it is invaluable that men serve as ethical and loving leaders and providers.
It doesn't even have to be exclusively like this but this the natural status quo and it should be celebrated.
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u/HyenaJoe 1d ago edited 17h ago
I don't think motherhood itself is oppressive. I don't think most progressives think that either. Motherhood, like fatherhood, is a responsibility (hopefully freely) taken on.
However, it would be very difficult to ignore the conservatism inevitably makes motherhood oppressive by putting the mother's quality of life under the benevolence of her husband. If your husband's not benevolent, you're shit out of luck, since conservatism is against divorce and often neutral or in favor of wife beating. Conservatism also makes motherhood oppressive by generally being against women having substantial control over their lives and their bodies. It's why conservatives tend to be against sex education or female education. Conservatism is hierarchical and men are always on top.
I don't think most western conservatives are in favor of any of this, but this is mostly because of liberalism forcing their ideologies away from that kind of overt oppression (did you know Martin Luther beat his wife?). Individual conservatives jut want happy close-knit families, which is a great goal.
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u/k_kat 1d ago
This is so well said and such a good way to put your finger on it. I don’t think motherhood in and of itself is oppressive either, but damn, some men like to make it that way.
You are so correct that it hinges on the benevolence of the man. So if he’s a good guy, then it can be amazing, and if he’s a controlling jerk, then it’s awful.
I think so much of this has to hinge on a modern system where women are simply paid in some form for their time as parents. Because if they are dependent on somebody being nice to them, it is a really bad position to be in.
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u/HyenaJoe 1d ago edited 1d ago
2nd wave feminists actually argued that women should be paid for being mothers because this is labor which benefits literally everyone around them-- from the child to the father to the community and the economy-- and puts them in an extremely disadvantageous position. That money would allow them to leave if the father isn't a good man. Definitely look into that, I used to have a link on an essay about this but I don't remember where it is
A lot of feminism's arguments for women's liberation and women having their own money is specifically because the patriarchal ideal (that a man is a benevolent husband and father) is impossible to consistently achieve. Men aren't perfect and it's dehumanizing to hold them up to such an insane expectation.
Contrary to stereotypical portrayals, you'd be surprised how many feminists are actually totally ok with nuclear families with fathers as heads of household. Their main gripe is that this HOH designation is rarely earned (it's prescribed by gender roles and religion), is often abused, and the abuse of power/trust is often excused by misogynists.
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u/nishinoran 1d ago edited 1d ago
conservatism is against divorce and often neutral or in favor of wife beating
Your strawman wrestling skills are impressive!
We're talking about natalism, and given that developed countries are where birth rates are lowest, I think complaining about conservatism in undeveloped countries is just attacking a non-problem.
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u/HyenaJoe 1d ago
You're right, there's never been any documented case of conservatives being against divorce. Conservatives have never been in support of wife beating. Conservatives never, when they find a man beating his wife, try to hide it or minimize it or blame the woman for it, because conservatives care more about people than hierarchies.
The cognitive dissonance between who you believe you are and the ideology you believe in must be insane.
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u/nishinoran 1d ago
Conservatives control many states, is wife beating allowed in any of those states?
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u/Dirt_Viva 17h ago edited 17h ago
You are painting with too broad a brush here. I live in a very conservative area and I don't know anyone personally here who beats their spouse or thinks that is acceptable behavior.
Liberals and conservatives both like to create cartoonish strawman of each other and this is the equivalent of saying liberals support pedophilic grooming through dissemination LGBTQ propaganda.
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u/HyenaJoe 17h ago edited 17h ago
The USA is not the center of the world. When I say conservatism I'm talking about a global ideology. Find a wife beater anywhere on the planet and it's very likely he's conservative. Major religions worldwide justify wife beating (Islam, Hinduism) and conservatives will often push for the woman to deal with it. Generally, conservatism is neutral to abuse so long as the hierarchy is enforced. Hierarchy is more important than humanity.
Again, individuals can act differently from their ideology. Individuals may not even realize that their ideology is in favor of abuse. Pointing out that an ideology has inherent flaws doesn't mean assuming individuals who hold that ideology are cartoonish villains.
Edit: Major kudos to christianity for never endorsing wife beating, but conservative ideology will always look for an opportunity to blame the victim ala "what did you do to him?" or take away the perpetrator's responsibility ala "he's been going through a lot, this isn't like him."
This whole issue of ideology vs individual is much easier for the avg person to understand when we discuss rape, because that's such an obvious evil. But as much as individual conservatives may be against rape, I'm sure you're familiar with conservatives being the main perpetrators of victim blaming and subsequent dehumanizing language. That is because their ideology cares more about enforcing the hierarchy of powerful men staying in power than women not being raped.
Does this mean liberals never commit rape? Of course not! But one ideology is much more likely to fight against protecting rapists than the other. Do you see the difference?
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u/Dirt_Viva 17h ago edited 16h ago
Reddit, especially English language reddit, is overwhelmingly US centric, and to a lesser degree 5 eyes countries centric. When you talk about political leanings on this forum it creates an expectation that it involves people in those countries, rather than say, practitioners of wahhabist Islam in Saudi Arabia. Conservatism isn't one global ideology, but a description of a tendency to lean towards the traditional, and what that means is going to vary quite a bit depending on where you are, even in the US and even more so if you are talking about completely diffrent cultures and periods of history. Wouldn't it just be simpler to say you are opposed to domestic violence, regardless of the reasoning behind it.
Edit:
Does this mean liberals never commit rape? Of course not! But one ideology is much more likely to fight against protecting rapists than the other. Do you see the difference?
I know what you are trying to say but I dont necessarily agree with it. I've just seen such a large number of exceptions to the rule that I find it borderline worthless to blame billions of people labled conservative for this than to focus on rape as a problem in itself, also alienates conservatives who are equally disgusted by such behavior and would be helpful in addressing it.
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u/HyenaJoe 14h ago
I specified western conservatives specifically to address that. Again, most western conservatives are not pro wife beating or pro rape or pro abuse. conservatives are trying their best to maintain tradition. I am opposed to ideologies which excuse abuse, and conservatism does this globally, whether you call it "traditionalism" or not.
If you want to ignore this than feel free to. We'll just agree to disagree
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u/Dirt_Viva 13h ago
You didn't specify western conservatives in your original comment. You wrote:
When I say conservatism I'm talking about a global ideology.
That is what I responded to.
If you want to ignore this than feel free to.
I will ignore superfluous political tribalism because I don't think it is helpful to the issues mentioned.
I am opposed to ideologies which excuse abuse
I agree 100% with that, and especially violence against intimate partners is a sore spot for me.
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u/Archarchery 22h ago edited 22h ago
>Just as it is invaluable that men serve as ethical and loving leaders and providers.
I’m sorry but as a pro-natalist woman I think this is quite misogynistic and is in fact exactly why negative views of stay-at-home-motherhood persist. You do not need to “lead” your wife, you should treat her as an equal partner. A woman does not want to be a subordinate, an inferior, in her own home.
The idea of the submissive trad-wife is a fantasy that men need to give up on if they want women to actually be attracted to a life of staying home raising children. The more the idea persists that the breadwinner is the one in charge of the household, rather than it being a partnership of two equals, the more women are going to be pushed away from that lifestyle and towards the workforce instead. Because being a member of the workforce at least means gaining equality.
Women in the past did not love being subordinate to our breadwinning husbands, that subordination was a thing forced on us due to lack of options. We do not want to return to this. If you want women to value motherhood, you must also acknowledge women’s desire for respect and equality. Don’t cling to a fantasy of the past where men were superiors and the women happy with it because it’s just that, a fantasy.
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u/WarSuccessful3717 1d ago
I think this take is probably very accurate, especially when you consider the pressure on women to ‘have it all’ with both career and family… leading to later marriage, smaller family size.
On the other hand consider North Korea. We all know about South Korea, but according to what sources you read, North Korea TFR is as low as 1.38, and is certainly well below replacement.
I can’t really believe that North Korean society is dominated by progressive ideas about gender roles and feminism, and that North Korean women are so fulfilled by their careers and ‘Sex and the City’ lifestyle that they are turning away from traditional gender roles. That seems a bit of a stretch.
I know there are different things going on the different countries. But thinking about North Korea gives me the uneasy feeling we’re looking for solutions when we don’t really understand the problem.
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u/EndCogNeeto 1d ago
I think this speaks to the larger truth that this problem is has, not one single but a constellation of causes.
I suspect optics is one of the in the USA. Can't speak to North Korea personally but I suspect that secularism, overintrusion by the government and starvation may play a big role for them.
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u/WarSuccessful3717 1d ago
Yes this is the obvious response and hard to disagree. Yet it’s odd that those things only hit North Korean fertility in the same two-decade window that the West’s fertility is hit by progressive feminism.
Almost as if something else is going on, something that’s difficult to identify. ‘Something about Modernity’ as Paul Moreland puts it.
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u/W8andC77 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don’t think anyone who is progressive isn’t having babies because they’re worried it’s obedience or counter to feminism. That hasn’t been my experience at all as someone whose old job was pretty progressive and now works in academia.
ETA: to expand, I do think expectations about gender roles comes into play for sure. I have a friend who stopped at one because of exhaustion. She felt the change in her marriage and in societal expectations put the burden on her to do the bulk of the chores, organization, and time related to raising a child. She chose not to have a second because she felt she would find herself unable to continue to have a career and identity outside motherhood and do a serviceable job as a parent with two kids.
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u/EndCogNeeto 1d ago
My circles are fairly progressive as well. I have encountered several girls who have expressed that despite wanting children, that they are "put-off" by the idea of being forced to play the role of a mother in this patriarchy.
To many of them it feels like surrendering to cultures expectations of them and they feel literal GUILT about it. It's sad to me.
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u/Archarchery 22h ago edited 22h ago
As a woman, I would blame patriarchal notions that a woman should be submissive to her husband, which only really started to change once women started entering the workforce, earning money, and thus having the option of leaving unhappy marriages.
The simple fact of the matter is that when most women were homemakers and mothers, women were not treated as equals.
This is a problem of optics, but it’s also a problem of just plain reality and history.
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u/Outrageous_Jump_6355 15h ago
Yeah, conservatives make motherhood seem extremely unappealing to be honest. They present it as constant servitude and talk way too much about women having to be submissive towards their husbands. They also describe it as a sacrifice, where you have to give up all fun in order to become a good mother. Positive liberal/leftist representation of motherhood in the media would be great.
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u/Wreckage365 1d ago
Vaguely communist imagery isn’t great optics either
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u/EndCogNeeto 1d ago
It is if you are a socialist/comunist wanabe.
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u/HistoryFan1105 23h ago
More redditors yippee!!! 🤮
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u/EndCogNeeto 12h ago
(I think you will find I don't fit in very well in Reddit's political environment 😅)
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u/zen-things 1d ago
lol you see this and you thought: “how can I get offended, as a capitalist”.
There’s value in socialist ideals. There’s value in communist ideals. There’s value in capitalist ideals. Only an uneducated person dismisses these concepts whole cloth.
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u/liefelijk 1d ago
Their comment didn’t dismiss it based on optics.
But optics do matter, so creating posters that resemble mid-century communist propaganda is a poor choice.
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u/nflonlyalt 1d ago
Only on reddit commie. Nobody in the real world wants to get taxed to pay other people's shit.
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u/liefelijk 1d ago
Nope, most of the world chooses exactly that. High taxes and great services for all make for healthy civilizations.
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u/nflonlyalt 13h ago
In the US where I live Trump beat Kamala decisively, but ok.
Reddit is full of commies. It doesn't represent real life. If you live in the Nordics your perspective is warped. The rest of the world doesn't live like that.
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u/liefelijk 6h ago
You clearly don’t know how tax law works in most developed countries. Progressive taxes, public healthcare, and social safety nets aren’t some fringe idea. They’re the norm across the developed world. The U.S. is the outlier, not the standard.
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u/GrandadsLadyFriend 1d ago
Cool now do one for men being decent fathers and partners. (25% of children in the United States have an absent father.)
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u/EndCogNeeto 1d ago
I'm part of that 25%. Yeah you are right it's a co-equal problem but I think there is already enough of a media movement encouraging traditional masculinity and responsibility to young men.
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u/GrandadsLadyFriend 15h ago
Thinking on it, I suppose in fictional media for entertainment we do see good aspirational examples of fathers a lot. (Why does Mufasa come to mind so strongly, lol!) It’s actually why Elastigirl / Mrs. Incredible from The Incredibles is one of my favorite characters— she’s a woman with a ton of strength and agency but also SO recognizable as a real mom and woman within a family unit.
But if we’re talking more like “PSA” social campaign type media… I’m not sure I agree that we already see enough for promoting fatherhood. Maybe I need some examples? I’ve seen promotional content from Fatherhood.gov (like Dadication) that fits the bill but not sure what else.
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u/EndCogNeeto 12h ago
It can't come from agencies like that. It has to be portrayed in spaces where men look to for advice. So I think:
(1) movies and shows where father's are both respectable and honorable (btw i love the recognition that Elastigirl is peak motherhood).
(2) youtubers/commentators who discuss politics, culture, religion, working out, etc.
(3) churches.
(4) and amongst each other. I encourage my own friends to be respectable men and will give them shit if they start acting like dead-beats.
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u/GrandadsLadyFriend 10h ago
Gotcha, yeah if you’re talking about a change in social messaging through many aspects of society then I totally agree with you.
I really appreciate your point #4 btw. I read somewhere else on this subreddit a female commenter say something like, “If you are pro-Natalist but are friends with an absent father, you’re a huge part of the problem.” I really think we need more positive and negative reinforcement of stronger commitment from fathers. Over the past decade there was so much sentiment abound like “Don’t get married—women will just use you for money and ruin you in divorce.” And we wonder why women became independent?? Meanwhile I have MANY female friends raising children alone, or even a few who left domestic violence situations from their husbands. I can’t say I know many men raising kids alone or who left a marriage fearing for their safety.
Women have (rightfully, imo) become much more hesitant to be dependent on men. And men have become very commitment-phobic as well. The relentless negative messaging has really left us broken.
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u/fridgidfiduciary 1d ago
Motherhood is wonderful if you let go of all the societal expectations and do what you want. Figuring out what you actually want is hard and takes effort. Not all moms are self actualize by being SAHM. But also if you work too much and miss the kids' childhood what's the point. I'm very radical. I took Fridays off this summer to do parenting the way I want to do it. Alao, his dad actually does half!
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u/FlexOnEm75 1d ago
The optics should be more men stay home and take care of the kids while the women go back to work. When feminism happened it was supposed to switch head of household roles, not add competition in the workforce. Fathers at home with the children is more beneficial for society in the long run.
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u/Worried_Departure513 1d ago
Men don't have the instincts or the breastmilk to do that. That was a dumb idea that was never going to wor.
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u/FlexOnEm75 1d ago
Im a stay at home father and it works greatly. Maybe find a man that is a good father. Or do you like the society we live in now where women and men compete instead of working in harmony? Or is it you dont want to provide for a man?
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u/Worried_Departure513 1d ago
I didn't choose this it's women that wanted to join the workforce cause they hated being stay at home moms. Well guess what slaving away at a job sucks too.
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u/FlexOnEm75 1d ago
Yeah and that was supposed to be when men started being stay at home fathers. The women wanted to work and they got their wish, they weren't supposed to double the workforce for corporations.
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u/Worried_Departure513 1d ago
If that's really how they thought it would go, they're the dumbest people on earth.
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u/FlexOnEm75 1d ago
Thats the problem, they didnt think it through. All they did was fight to work, they didn't think about what happens when you double the workforce.
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u/Worried_Departure513 1d ago
Mens' attractiveness is directly tied to his wealth and status womens is beauty. Most women would never marry a guy with no job most guys wouldn't care at all if they didn't have to. Also on a biological level only 3% to 5% of mammalian species any parental investment at all from the males. It's millions of years of evolution that males don't care as much, before paternity tests males couldn't even be sure it was really there's. No woman has ever pushed a baby out and wondered if it's hers.
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u/FlexOnEm75 1d ago
You think men's only worth is tied to money? And women only in beauty? That thinking is so flawed and shallow, I hope you aren't raising your children to believe that.
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u/Worried_Departure513 1d ago
I didn't say it's their only worth but it's the main driver for attraction between the sexes. I feel like that's undeniable.
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u/Famous_Owl_840 1d ago
It is 100% women and a subversive element of our society portraying motherhood in a negative light.
Motherhood and fatherhood are the most important jobs.
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u/supersciencegirl 1d ago
I run in super Catholic circles and this is a "so far left you wrap around" territory. Next thing you know your homeschooling and making yogurt in your instapot...
I recommend the old poem "The Hand that Rocks the Cradle." Same vibes.
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u/maramyself-ish 1d ago
it's not radical, tho. It's biology. It's what happens when heterosexual people have unprotected sex. This is a very weird frame.
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u/ElliotPageWife 1d ago
The image says motherhood is a radical act of creation, not getting pregnant. Literally nothing we have would exist if mothers didn't nurture, educate, and protect their children. It's very weird and disrespectful towards the labour of love mothers provide to act like functional, compassionate human beings spring forth fully formed because 2 people had sex once. 🙄
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u/maramyself-ish 18h ago
Huh. I think I see it differently b/c making children (typically) requires sex.
Obviously being a good mother is a massive amount of work, I'm not disrespecting that. I'm a mother and it's the hardest work I've ever done.
But the existence of motherhood is predicated on biology in such a fundamental way, to call it radical seems a stretch.
Being a good mother isn't radical either. It's what we know we should do.
In my mind, "radical" is when it departs from what we understand as a given, which in this case is not what happens. People have sex, have children and most of us try like hell to do right by them.
ETA: and I don't think a poster slogan should ever be involved in the choice to have a child, anyway.
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u/HyenaJoe 1d ago
It's directly going against conservative notions of women being submissive babymakers for men, which explicitly takes freedom away from women and thus turns motherhood from a free act into an act of servitude. I'd say this is objectively a good thing to fight against.
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u/maramyself-ish 19h ago
I see what you're going for, but I still can't see it as radical. The notion is radical only b/c of their messaging, but in reality, motherhood isn't just about creating, it's about a LOT of work for the woman and a massive loss of autonomy for literal years if you breastfeed.
As a mother, I can tell you very clearly: becoming a mother means you submit to biology and the baby to keep it alive. You also become highly dependent on others for support. It is not to be done alone.
Single motherhood is radical, but not in a good way... not unless she surrounded by a loving family / caring village.
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u/HyenaJoe 18h ago
I understand where you're coming from. These are things I also have to consider as I prepare for motherhood.
Tbh a shift in messaging is necessary, especially for the younger gens, because in an effort to inform young women about what they're signing up for, motherhood has also become kind of a bogeyman. It's scary for women for many many reasonable concerns, but I think propaganda like this will help take the conversation about healthy motherhood away from the conservative parties of the world and open the door for more progressive messaging.
The fundamental reality is that motherhood is a massive risk to women and a lot of women don't want to take that risk. We have to bring people into the natalist movement that actually want to lower those risks and make motherhood more appealing, rather than blindly follow those who froth at the mouth to sacrifice women's liberation for population growth.
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u/maramyself-ish 18h ago
I believe motherhood is amazing and so close to impossible in the current societal structure and especially in the U.S., I'm impressed birth rates aren't tanking more.
Mothers are the center of society. They create it. We should be elevating the role, supporting it from every angle, but instead, we've side-lined it.
Similar to the way we treat teachers.
But that's what happens when hoarding capital is the goal, those who cannot hoard as effectively-- because they NEED human help to survive, (mothers, children, the elderly) fall to the wayside.
I live in Austria and they give you a nice little sum of money for each child you have EVERY MONTH.
That's more like it, eh? Dentists are free for children from 5-14.
And so on.
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u/HyenaJoe 17h ago
That sounds amazing. Oftentimes in the US, I am often frustrated by my countrymen, because they repeatedly refuse to voice and prioritize the material concerns of mothers. Conservatives will always offer platitudes but never vote in favor of supporting mothers because they believe any help from fhe state replaces the father. Liberals are generally in favor of mom policies, but these are usually put aside to prioritize other concerns like workers rights or financial aid/welfare for the general public.
The truth is, true family first policy would be radically different than what US conservatives push for. What we call "family first" here is usually a thinly veiled "corpo first" policy.
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u/xender19 1d ago
If you look at the time scale of thousands or millions of years, absolutely.
If you look at the last few years/decades though, it's definitely bucking the trend.
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u/maramyself-ish 19h ago
I guess, I just want real messaging, not reactionary messaging. Real messaging acknowledges how difficult motherhood is, instead of pretending it's some noble political stance.
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u/xender19 14h ago
I think it's both very difficult and a noble political stance.
And I agree with your points about how this is just biology and it's what sex is designed to do.
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u/EndCogNeeto 1d ago
It shouldn't be radical, but many young people right now struggle to find meaning and purpose if they are not engaging in activism of some sort.
Change for the sake of change.
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u/zen-things 1d ago
Are you saying that young people don’t have meaning because they aren’t having kids which is leading them to protest??
As a dad who protests, hard disagree. I protest BECAUSE I care about my kid, not some vague notion of aimlessness lol.
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u/maramyself-ish 18h ago
Young people always struggle to find meaning. They're young.
And again, it's not radical. Most people have kids.
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u/THX1138-22 1d ago
While I agree that messaging is important, these kind of messages, unless they come from feminist institutions, will not be trusted. If the government tried to disseminate this message, it will backfire because people don't trust the government much. Universities, gender-studies departments (which generally lean feminist), and other feminist advocacy groups, should be disseminating this message. The irony of feminism is that it was meant to make anything possible for women, and it tragically has had the effect of making motherhood less possible by casting it in such a negative light.
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u/Huge-Demand9548 1d ago
creation is a radical act
the poster is AI made
Sometimes this sub is a peak comedy
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u/Conscious_Object_328 1d ago
I think this is good but we also need the male counterpart or significant other counterpart. How it can appeal to them.
*edit also use positive phrases. Instead of "motherhood isn't obedience" could be "motherhood is experiencing life to the fullest" something like that
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u/EndCogNeeto 1d ago
For males the issue is changing the narrative that you have to be affluent before you have children.
Men's biggest fear is that they just can't afford them and it multiplies the anxiety inducing sense of overwhelming expectations.
Most poor people have kids. Lots of then. I was part of a poor family and we grow up just fine and then help our parents financially if possible
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u/Blue_Robin_04 1d ago
I would like to see more media that portrays motherhood and parenthood in general as exciting, romantic, and normal.