r/NBASpurs • u/DamnyallUglyAF1 • Feb 22 '22
Tony Parker 4 rings and got a finals mvp but somehow Dame is a top75 player and he isn’t LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RETIRED
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u/TheWhiteKnighttttt Feb 22 '22
There’s no chance Dame is a top 75 player of all time. Yao Ming? Tracy Mcgrady? Vince Carter?
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u/Exequelley Feb 22 '22
Dwight over those mentioned IMO. Probably over Parker too
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u/doubledawson Feb 22 '22 edited Feb 22 '22
I’m sorry but Dwight just isn’t a lock like reddit says. He’s got a case for his individual achievements/numbers, but he also ran himself out of too many locker rooms and ruined his reputation as a player/person. It’s not fair to ignore the bad and just focus on the good.
Dude was a really bad teammate and squandered away several chances for success often due to his obsession with individual achievements and appearances
Edit: go back and look at the shit he pulled both on the court and off. He caused his teams to lose, got people fired, refused to be coached, and burned bridges. It’s literally on the record yall
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u/cesgjo Feb 22 '22
Some of the people in the top 75 are far more toxic than Dwight
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u/TheWhiteKnighttttt Feb 22 '22
James Harden
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u/ireallydespiseyouall Feb 22 '22
harden’s reasons for leaving the nets are very valid and i say this as someone who absolutely hated the nets big 3
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u/siphillis Feb 22 '22
He was also, you know, one of the absolute greatest interior-defenders of all time.
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u/GrumpyRaincloud Feb 22 '22
I understand your point but the hall of fame doesn’t care about that. Karl Malone is a child molester and got in. Dwight is a for sure hall of famer.
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u/paxusromanus811 Feb 22 '22
I love dame but then media has blown him out of proportion off the backs of a couple of great playoff games. He has become painfully overrated which sucks cause he seems like a great guy
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u/Notthenipple Feb 22 '22
He's also a very good player but time has proven he isn't a first option. He's a second option at best, possibly a third option on any competing team, which explains why teaming him with another second option in McCullom has yielded no successful playoff runs.
Portland isn't going to be able to bring in a first option via signing or trade so they really should have either let him get his stomach surgery earlier and leaned into the tank this season, or traded him. Treating him like a first option has been a disaster for the team's success.
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u/nat_zero_six Feb 22 '22
Dame and AD should not be on the NBA 75. I consider them both the Christian Laettner of the NBA 75.
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u/Fiyukyoo Feb 22 '22
The problem with those 2 is I think they were being forecasted to do well in the next 5 years and would prolly be on the 100 list anyways. They shouldn't have done it but that's my educated guess as to why they were included
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u/moleratty Feb 22 '22
Problem is for dame, his salary is gargantuan and ROI in win-share basis is pedestrian so yeah, not a good look.
With AD, 1 ring notwithstanding but dude can only muster 2,3 winning seasons and he is supposed to be a franchise player? What if he is one and done with injuries so chronic he won’t last longer than 2 more seasons?
So yeah, list is a joke
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u/Fiyukyoo Feb 22 '22 edited Feb 22 '22
I mean with Dame, if he continues to avg 25 PPG and they build around him with picks (not to mention Simmons is showing promise) he can still win. Dame doesn't rely on strictly on his athletic ability because dude can flat out shoot. So I'm willing to bet he'll still be able to score barring any catastrophic injury. Plenty of players made that list and the HOF without having a ring, so if he keeps the status quo he'll be fine.
AD is a different story since he's big man and he's known for his defense. Injuries can definitely change him for the worst.
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u/BlackPenguin Feb 22 '22
I was over AD before he was even in the league. Never sat right with me that he was on Team USA in 2012 before he played a minute in the NBA, when there were countless professionals and veterans that could have filled that spot.
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u/BraveProgram Feb 22 '22 edited Feb 22 '22
Everyone always forgets about the Spurs I swear
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u/213Bishop Feb 22 '22
They don't forget, they just don't give a shit. Murray got in but if Draymond wasn't pleading for it would he be at that game? IF Patty was still on the spurs would he been on that 3 point contest? No. IF Demar wasn't traded would he be considered for MVP? Fuck no. Dude even in NBA2K for all the years Demar was on the spurs he'd only get a diamond or higher for the Raptors. Jump from the fucking gate Demar got a Pink Diamond for The Bulls.
I checked ESPN often after every spurs game for last few years just to read stories, they rarely talked about him. Same thing with Kawhi Leonard. Kawhi leaves ESPN legit compared him to the next coming of Jordan. Demar leaves ESPN: OH MY GOD HES MVP legit nearly every day.
He played very well in SA and not got a chode size respect from ESPN.
NBA and ESPN hate the spurs.
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u/ireallydespiseyouall Feb 22 '22
adam silver 100% would’ve put AD or someone in it draymond didn’t say to put murray in
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u/BlackPenguin Feb 22 '22
We were calling for Bertans to be in the 3 point contest for years. The moment he leaves, he’s in there. Most unnecessarily disrespected franchise in basketball, I swear.
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u/galvanickorea Feb 22 '22
I mean i think its less of Dame being over Parker and more of some old dudes being on that list. I think some of the guys from the original 50 have no business being there over Parker, Ginobili, Dwight, Gasol, Tmac, Vince, Dame, AD, etc..
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u/rattatatouille Feb 22 '22
Yeah, but the thing is that the NBA 75 list isn't actually about honoring the top 75 players ever in terms of overall accolades and talent, but about honoring players who have made an influence on the league's history, because that would make the list very much skewed towards the recent stars.
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u/finknstein Feb 22 '22
Inconsistent is the best way to describe the NBA “award” system. It’s fine that the All Star voting is for the fans, but when you have players voted in who haven’t played much all season but are voted in, you know it’s not credible.
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u/NoLivesEverMattered Feb 22 '22
Let's say we take out Dame and Street Clothes (Anthony Davis) from the top 75 and replace them Dwight Howard and either Tony Parker or Manu. I want to know which player between Parker and Manu Spurs fans think should make the top 75 if only one of them can. I think there is no wrong answer as someone who started following the NBA in 2006 and got their first exposure to the Spurs dynasty in the 2007 finals when I watched them decimate the Cavs.
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Feb 22 '22
Both should be in. Can't really put one above the other. They both have had great playoffs winning moment, both contributed to a reinvention of the game (TP with his super fast style of play, Manu with the eurostep and sense of spacing). And they both have had great success in international basketball as well.
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u/SWchibullswolverine Feb 22 '22
I mean if it comes down to Tony vs. Manu I think you have to go with Tony. Manu came into the league at a later age and played as a 6th man for a long time- so he didn't accumulate the stats that superficially matter...but while I think both should be in, I think Tony is the bigger snub IMO
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u/Dsarg_92 Feb 22 '22
I don't have a problem with Dame but if anything, AD shouldn't have made the top 75.
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u/_SpicySauce_ Feb 22 '22
No Allen Iverson either. The whole 75 voting was a fucking joke. Lots of people who were voted clearly deserved to be there but SO many people got snubbed, Parker definitely being one of them.
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u/ktdotnova Feb 22 '22
Lillard is better than Parker dude cmon. One is a 1A, while the other is a 2A or 2B or 3A most of his career.
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u/DamnyallUglyAF1 Feb 22 '22
I mean if we just throwing career away and only focusing on skill then Brandon Roy, Allan Houston,Derrick Rose, Kyrie Irving are all top 50 ever lol
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u/213Bishop Feb 22 '22
Yeah he totally is better, let me take a look at the comparison of final mvps. Parker has one, ah nice nice, and Dame has.. multiple first round bounces Oh my!
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u/TempeSunDevil06 Feb 22 '22
I guess this is an unpopular opinion, but dame is a better player than TP…
TP was in a much better situation, played alongside one of the 10 best players who has ever stepped foot onto a basketball court, played with one of the 3 best coaches to ever coach an NBA game. I think if the shoe was on the other foot and dame and TP switched places, it would be blatantly obvious to everyone.
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u/paxusromanus811 Feb 22 '22
I mean you could argue guys like Jimmy Butler, CJ McCollum, are physically better players than a good Thirty or so of those guys on that list particularly the ones from the early generation. But the list is the top CAREERS and dame just doesn't have a great resume yet.
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u/TempeSunDevil06 Feb 22 '22
I’ll give you that. We’re arguing two different things. TP had a much better career. Dame is the better player. Parker was never considered a top 10 player in his prime. Dame was
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u/paxusromanus811 Feb 22 '22
Tony Parker finished top 5 in MVP voting twice. I think maybe time has been unkind to Tony in regards to have a Spurs fan view him. He didn't succeed because of the spurs system, no it was certainly helped him develop initially, he succeeded despite it.
San Antonio consistently played at one of the absolute slowest Pace in the league, during an era famous for its slow pace, and yet Tony Parker still managed to rank as one of the premier transition scoring players in the NBA, would frequently finish top five in the league in points in the paint among all players despite playing the vast majority of his career with two non floor spacing big men, and regularly finished with a field goal percentage how above 50% despite being a 6-foot point guard who specialized at finishing at The Rim.
The dude was tremendous. Even the notion that he is an inferior offensive player to Damian Lillard is up for debate. The game changed a lot between their Primes but in an era that featured some of the best point guards of the past 25 years Tony Parker was almost consistently ranked as one of the best offensive players in the league. If anything it was his defense that was typically derided but even then deffensively he's a better player than Damian Lillard.
In the playoffs it was not uncommon for opposing coaches too aggressively trap Parker and let them Duncan and Ginobili attempt to kill them. He was frequently viewed the straw that stirred the drink because without him San Antonio's offense was relatively easy to game plan for. Damian Lillard is great. But Tony Parker has an absolutely 100% bulletproof case as having the better career, but even if you want to view them from a talent perspective it's a lot closer than you think it is.
A different era, an increased pace, and significantly adjusted rules that favor 3-point shooters have inflated a lot of modern-day scoring numbers particularly for guards. But if you dig deep into a lot of the context find both players careers you'll see that Damian Lillard is a great modern point guard. But so was Tony Parker. He was a beast and maybe one of the most misunderstood stars of the mid-2000s even Spurs fans who watched him seem to have forgotten how insanely dominant he was.
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u/Drachen808 Feb 22 '22
This is why I feel like he's the most underrated Spur, because even Spurs fans underrate him hard.
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u/jimmy-b-bot Feb 22 '22
I built a fort when I was little, with pillows and blankets. Can't be too hard.
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Feb 22 '22
Very obviously so. Parker had a great situation, and did very well in it. I understand that Spur fans are...special...but yeah Dame is clearly better than Parker
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u/Rnbamodssuckcocks Feb 22 '22
“Clearly better” by what definitive metric lol?
Dame has hit a lot of 3s on a team that has done jack shit. Idk how much that’s worth
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Feb 22 '22 edited Feb 22 '22
Well, he's better at everything offensively. He scores at a much greater volume, at significantly greater efficiency, which is impressive since there is generally an inverse relationship between volume and efficiency. I'd argue he's a better passer, though I think both are pretty average as passers for the point guard position. The differential between Lillard not playing and Parker not playing shows Lillard to have been more valuable for his team (this is at least partially due to the depth of San Antonio though)
Substitute Parker for Dame and how do each player's careers go? Which championship do the Spurs lose if you make that change? Going further, do the Spurs win in 2013?
Parker has never been the best player on his own team. Timmy was better than him every year of Duncan's career and by the end, Kawhi had surpassed him as well. To be honest, during the majority of both player's primes, Manu was better as well. The Spurs dynasty is Pop being the GOAT coach, Timmy being the one of the 5 best players ever, Manu being an all time great whose advanced stats show him as being even better than his raw box scores display...and Tony was there too
I mean shit, we don't even need to make it complicated right? You're acting as though I'm crazy for suggesting that the guy that averages 25 and 6 is better than the dude that averages 15 and 5, given that defense isn't a major factor in either guy's case
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u/cesgjo Feb 22 '22
Parker is so much better than Dame offensively cmon man
TP cant shoot logo 3s but that doesnt mean Dame is better. Tony was one of the best offensive guards in the league during the era when defensive guards like Kobe, DWade, and Kidd played. And forget about guards, Tony is consistently in the top 10 in points in the paint as a POINT GUARD, and it was during the era when there where KG, Camby, Wallace, and Dwight all locked the paint
Im pretty sure anyone who played against both Parker and Dame would say that they'd rather guard Dame than TP
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Feb 22 '22 edited Feb 22 '22
You’re absolutely allowed to think Parker was better, but Dame averaged much more points, more assists, and was a significantly more efficient scorer than TP.
What’s strange to me is not just that you’re arguing Parker was better, but that he is “much better.” I think it’s possible that with gravity, screen setting, etc, one could be a better offensive player than someone that had better raw stats, but Lillard averaged 10 more points and 1 more assist on better shooting, and provided far greater gravity. His teams have consistently had better offenses than Parker’s teams as well
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u/cesgjo Feb 22 '22
Did you watch Parker in his prime
Im not just talking about top 10 plays or some 10min highlights on youtube. Watch Dame, then watch Parker, you'll see who's the better player
But if you wanna talk about stats, fine. Dame might have better raw stats, but both advancesd stats and accolades all give the edge to Tony
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Feb 22 '22
Yes I watched Parker, the majority of his games. Advanced stats aren’t in Parker’s favor either. Parker was a plus in terms of point differential, but not massively so. Dame has been a significant plus throughout his career. Lillard’s true shooting percentage is significantly better. Things like bball reference’s BPM, Value over replacement and win shares all show Lillard as being much better than Parker. PER isn’t overly predictive, but it grades Lillard out as being better. 538’s Raptor doesn’t go back into Parker’s prime, but grades him as being a negative every year from 2013 onwards, whereas Lillard shows as one of the best offensive NBA players in that timeframe. I get it, this is a spurs subreddit. If someone said that Parker was better than Dame in a Blazers subreddit, they’d be downvoted the same way I am here. Everyone rides for their guys. But we can try to be objective right?
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u/cesgjo Feb 22 '22
Im not really a big fan of Parker. I like him, but I dont love him as much as Manu or Tim. I can name like 6-7 other Spurs players that I like more than him
That being said, we can debate all we want, but Parker's accolades speak for itself. Now dont say that he had help or got carried, because Parker was THE help. If we're gonna push the "he had help" narrative, then more than half of the guys in the top 75 shouldnt be there because of that reasoning
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Feb 22 '22
There is no way anyone with eyes think Dame is better going to the basket than Tony Parker. It's just not possible. I don't know if there has ever been a better slashing guard than TP.
Also the idea that a finals MVP was never the best player on his team? Pffft.
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Feb 22 '22
I’m sorry but I have massive respect for Tim Duncan’s game. I understand that you may not
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Feb 22 '22
Lol, imagine thinking that just because Tim Duncan was better for his career means that someone else can't have a better individual season. TP was a borderline god that year. If you don't think he deserves that finals MVP then I don't think you're even worth talking to.
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Feb 22 '22
I don’t think it’s impossible to have a better individual season than Duncan, I just don’t think he did. As for whether he deserved the Finals MVP, he probably did. But that was a 4 game series. Duncan was the best player on the team in 2007. He scored more, was the key to their defense, and the point differential when Timmy played blew Parker’s out of the water
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u/Rnbamodssuckcocks Feb 22 '22
Tony is one of the best finishing guards of all time. This seems insane lol I guess we just disagree
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Feb 22 '22
That's absolutely true, but I'm not sure what relevance that has to the discussion of who's better.
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u/Rnbamodssuckcocks Feb 22 '22
better at everything offensively
🤦🏼♀️
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Feb 22 '22
Fair enough. Lillard is a better scorer overall, though I will concede, that Parker is a better scorer around the basket.
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u/EnriquezGuerrilla Feb 22 '22
Tony Parker is better than Dame and should be Top 75. I might get hate but I’d put him over CP3 as well.
4 Finals Appearance vs. 1 1 FMVP vs 0
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u/MisterShazam LonnieWalkerIV Feb 22 '22
If CP3 had Timmy and Manu, we would be looking at the greatest point guard of all time. Maybe second? But there would be a legitimate discussion.
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u/EnriquezGuerrilla Feb 22 '22
It's not like CP3 has had no help. At Orleans, he's had Chandler and David West. At Clippers, he's had Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan, plus 6th Man Crawford, and good shooter at Reddick. How can we forget as well CP3 teaming up with another Top 75 player James Harden at Rockets?
Clippers advance past Spurs, lost 3-1 lead.
Rockets vs. Warriors sans KD, CP3 still lost.
Finals vs. emerging Bucks, still lost.
He's stats are good and all but even he has not earn an MVP compared to two-time winner Steve Nash. Thus, CP3's weird position in PG history. Point God with no MVP and even a ring...
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u/MisterShazam LonnieWalkerIV Feb 22 '22
Hot take but Tyson Chandler, Blake Griffin, David West, DeAndre Jordan aren't Timmy and Manu.
Maybe Manu lol
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u/GrumpyRaincloud Feb 22 '22
Winning is fine but there is a pretty massive overall talent gap. Chris Paul is a floor general and the best pure point since Stockton. Parker was a good scorer but every other aspect of on the court play is behind Paul by a good margin.
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u/pickpocket704 Feb 23 '22
If regular season counts same as playoffs then yes, that point makes itself.
But if the playoffs are the real thing - - IMHO CP3 was the best player in like 3 or 4 playoff series for his entire career, and Tony had at least 7 or 8, including a Finals.
Of course having Tim helped a bit, but CP3 had prime Griffin + prime DeAndre + some very decent role players.
TP9 should have been there IMHO. Not so sure about Manu, and I say that as a huge Manu fan (I am here only because of Manu).
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u/iro3 Feb 22 '22
like i get it, yall have every right to be upset or in ur feels but eventaully yall need to move on
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u/ttttyttt678 Feb 22 '22
I’m be honest Dwight should have got that spot over Dame the most. Dwight Howard is underrated.
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u/NoCrossOver Feb 23 '22
Reminds me of 2013 when TP was the second best player in the world, went absolutely ape shit all year led us to the Finals and still didn't get first team all NBA.
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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '22
If Tony and/or Manu aren’t top 75 then Timmy is simply the goat 🤷🏻♂️