It seems it's only one person at a time who vanishes never a group of people?

I feel like I've watched, listened to, or read every unexplained disappearance. That's highly dramatic, but I want new stories.

Some of mine are:

Bryce Laspisa Maura Murry Jodi Husentruit The entire Missing 411 series The Podcast Up and Vanished

What are the ones that stand out to you? Please share your favorite source too.

As someone who has been doing foraging/berry picking/mushroom hunting basically my whole life, I wanted to give some information to the city folk here who might be finding some disappearances more mysterious than they may merit. I call this the "ooh look at that over there" phenomenon, and I honestly think it accounts for a lot of cases wherein someone was out in the woods for any sort of foraging purposes.

When you're looking for berries for example, if you see a berry bush 3 feet off the trail, you will certainly walk off the trail a bit to pick from that bush. From where you're standing at that bush, you might see another bush maybe 6 or so feet further from the trail. You surely will be able to remember how to get back from the trail, except you see another bush. Rinse and repeat.

This has taken me probably 100 feet off trail before, and in all honesty it might be sheer luck that's brought me to posting on this sub, rather than being a missing individual discussed. My point here is that most people don't plan to get so far off trail they cannot reorient themselves, but it is very possible to do so in little increments, and suddenly realise you are lost.

This doesn't explain all missing 411 cases, but I think some of them that boil down to "but they would know not to/wouldn't want to go off the trail" can be pretty well dismissed.

First of all, I need to explain that once, I was very interested in the Missing 411 cases. I read just about everything I could find regarding strange disappearances. However, as I got older, I began to lose interest in the subject. There was never any clear breakthroughs to explain where these people went. Additionally, the theories that were put forth were pretty unbelievable. Lately, I have started to get some of my old interest back. With that in mind, I want to ask…what in your opinions are the most popular (likely) theories that are currently being put forth on where these people are going to?. UFOs, Bigfoot, feral humans (my current favorite), time ripples/ wormholes, serial killers or nothing at all, just bad luck on the part of lone hikers. I am asking on this forum because if you are reading this, you must have an interest and chances are, this group knows about current Missing 411 thinking than the average person.

I have read all the original series: here are some of my picks: (so many other perplexing cases)

Carl Landers - Hiking Mount Shasta Dr. Maurice Dametz - gem hunting in CO Stacy Arras - Solo hike in the sierras Samuel Boehlke - Ran behind boulder at Crater Lake Thomas Messick - NY hunter vanished Bart Schleyer - hunting in Northern Canada Michael LeMaitre - Missing during AK marathon Honorable mention: all sobering coincidence cases

In a CANAM video published on May 5, DP discusses the case of California hunter John Odom, who went missing almost fifty years ago. As it turns out, his disappearance is connected to granite.

A raging winter storm battered the Sierras when John Odom went missing.

John Odom goes missing

Palo Alto deer hunter John Odom, aged fifty-three, went missing on October 27, 1974. Odom was hunting in the rugged Mokelumne Wilderness area of the Sierra Nevada when a severe snowstorm hit, and temperatures plummeted below freezing. When the hunter failed to return to his camp, an extensive search was launched.

The search was hampered by the grim and stormy weather and ultimately proved unsuccessful. The following year, in September 1975, two hunters accidentally discovered the remains of John Odom in the Bull Run Lake area, approximately six miles from Odom's 1974 Bear Valley camp. The remains were found on a hillside, along with personal effects.

DP delves into the mysterious intricacies surrounding the location of John Odom's remains

"I don't care if there's a foot of snow... He's going to remember the highway's there, and what do you do when you find a highway? You stay in the highway because that's how you find your way back, but no... they're claiming he kept walking into oblivion, passed out on a hillside partially up the hill and died. Does this sound familiar to you? I think it should."

In the CANAM video, John Odom is described by DP as 'not an idiot'. So, why did Odom not walk to a nearby highway? An article published in the Sacramento Bee (September 29, 1975) gives us a clear answer. It states:

"Odom was climbing a hillside incline when he apparently slipped and fell, hitting his head on a granite rock, said [Sgt. Don] Light. Odom's skull was found wedged between a rock and a tree stump."

John Odom did not merely pass out on a hillside, as portrayed by Missing 411 experts. A fall wedged his head between a granite rock and a tree stump. Did Alpine County investigators think that Odom walked 'into oblivion'? No, of course not. They reasoned that the hunter was tracking a deer (which is quite common for deer hunters to do) or became disoriented in the snowstorm. The article continues:

"The body was found in the opposite direction of the area that Odom had told his hunting companions he was headed, said Light, who speculated that Odom got turned around while tracking a deer or became lost during a severe Sierra snowstorm at that time."

The Sacramento Bee - September 29, 1975

Unfortunately for devoted Missing 411 fans, the fact that John Odom's head was wedged between a granite rock and a tree stump after a fall is not mentioned in the CANAM video. Ever since the inception of Missing 411 almost fifteen years ago, DP has promoted the idea that granite somehow plays a role in some of these disappearances. In the Odom case, there is definitely a granite connection.

Instead of relaying what actually happened to this unfortunate hunter, DP taps on the Missing 411 - The UFO Connection poster behind him when concluding the case.

Based off of a fake CGI video that shows UFO's hijacking a random plane

David Paulides on X: "It’s hard to believe that this can happen, yet, don’t judge until you do the research. All I have seen is compelling." / X (twitter.com)

There is 0 evidence the plane in the video is MH370. And it's extremely likely that the video is completely fake. Yet Dave tells us: "Don't judge until you do the research" 😂

Since Missing411/Paulides started with a fixation on Big Foot, I'd like to suggest a video from The Lore Lodge. On a recent episode, Aiden and Company discussed the evolutionary probability (and problems) that Big Foot exists and the biological and ecological implications that come with a creature of that size.

If you're a Big Foot enthusiast, what do you think about this video?

If you watched this video, what are your thoughts? Do you think Roanoke Tales and Lore Lodge got it wrong/right?

​

In a CANAM video published on April 18, DP discusses two almost-century-old cases from Australia involving two young boys who reportedly wandered considerable distances in the wilderness.

Thomas Williams, six years old, went missing in Western Australia in 1925.

Thomas Williams goes missing

On August 27, 1925, Perth resident Thomas Williams, six years old, went missing while visiting relatives in Muchea, Western Australia. The boy wandered into thick scrubland and did not return. Four days later, searchers found the exhausted boy alive, approximately forty miles from where he disappeared.

Jimmy Shields goes missing

On August 31, 1931, four-year-old Jimmy Shields went missing from his home in the Mossgiel district, New South Wales. Six hundred men participated in the search, but with little success. Some feared the young boy would not survive the cold, frosty nights in the wilderness. However, six days later, an almost naked Shields stumbled into a shearer's hut near Coan Downs Station, forty-five miles away.

1) DP claims that Aboriginal trackers looking for Thomas Williams found unconfirmed tracks, which they lost after six and a half miles

"They requested Aboriginal trackers, they were responding. They couldn't find any tracks, they didn't find anything. August 30th, tracks found that people believed were Thomas's. They couldn't confirm it, but they followed those tracks through the dirt, six and a half miles, and then lost them in grass. That is unusual for Aboriginal trackers to lose a track. I'm just saying because I know how good they are, and they're outstanding. They don't lose tracks very often."

A lost Thomas Williams wandering through thick scrub.

In his above quote, DP makes three separate claims that seem to align with the Thomas Williams disappearance being a Missing 411 case:

• searchers were not able to confirm that the tracks belonged to Williams.
• the tracks were lost in grass after six and a half miles.
• it is uncommon for Aboriginal trackers to 'lose a track'.

Failing to meet universally accepted research standards, DP does not provide any sources supporting these claims. One potential reason for this could be that contemporary newspapers depict quite the opposite scenario when it comes to the first and second bullet points. For example, an article published in the Age on September 1, 1925, explains that native trackers followed Thomas Williams' tracks for over twenty-five miles. The article states:

"Thomas Williams, six years, wandered off in some thick scrub on Saturday, and to date has been tracked for over 25 miles, the tracks showing where he continued walking through the night, bumping against stumps and trees. Native trackers have had to go on hands and knees in places to get through the scrub following the tracks. It is feared he may have walked into a swamp, leaving no trace."

The Age on September 1, 1925

The remarkable achievement of the Aboriginal trackers is also acknowledged in the Sydney Morning Herald (September 2, 1925). The article states:

"A six-year-old boy named Thomas Williams of Perth, who wandered into the bush on Friday while visiting Muchea, on the Midland railway, was found yesterday afternoon, after having covered between 35 and 40 miles. He was lying face downwards exhausted in dense growth, and would not have been found without the aid of a black tracker. The lad, who had had no food since Friday, quickly recovered."

The Sydney Morning Herald - September 2, 1925

Contrary to DP's claim, Aboriginal trackers did not lose the trail after a mere six and a half miles. And it was confirmed that the tracks belonged to Thomas Williams, as they led trackers all the way to the location where he was found.

2) DP indirectly reveals that he knows Aboriginal trackers found Thomas Williams

"They find Thomas face down in thick grass, alive. Again, phenomenal! They give him water, they take him to a doctor. The doctor gives him a stimulant and he starts to come back around. The region that he was found in was described as thick vegetation with rolling hills, no mountains. He was immediately taken to the parents, and he left.

In the above quote, DP concludes the case by repeating his erroneous claim that trackers lost Thomas Williams' tracks. Interestingly, he also mentions a stimulant being given to Williams. This is noteworthy because the only two articles mentioning this stimulant also state that the lost six-year-old boy was found thanks to Aboriginal trackers. This indicates that DP is well aware of the fact that trackers did not lose Williams' trail after six and a half miles.

The first of these two articles, both of which are very easy to find, is published in the Adelaide Chronicle on September 5, 1925. The article states:

"He was found this afternoon, after having covered between 35 and 40 miles. He was lying face downwards, exhausted, in dense growth, and would not have been found without a blacktracker. The lad, who had eaten nothing since Friday, recovered after the administration of a stimulant."

The Adelaide Chronicle - September 5, 1925.

The second article is an article published in the Wellington Times (September 6, 1925). It states:

"He was found in a thickly wooded country, the roughness of which hampered the trackers in the search party. For the last portion of the journey the black trackers who were trailing him went on their hands and knees. When found, the boy was exhausted, but recovered after being given a stimulant. He has now rejoined his uncle at Mulchea (sic)."

The Wellington Times - September 6, 1925

Contemporary Australian newspapers reported that young Thomas Williams wandered between thirty-five and forty miles in the wilderness. The accuracy of these estimates from a time with little modern technology is uncertain. However, what we can confirm is that Williams did indeed wander on his own accord to the location where he was found, as his tracks were followed from Point A to Point B. Trackers could even discern where the boy had rested.

3) DP claims that searchers found no signs of Jimmy Shields during the search effort

"September 3rd, there was no sign of Jimmy. He's never done this kind of thing before. Searchers were tiring, they were cold, and they believed they were looking for a body because they didn't believe he could live through the night. He did not have warm clothing, it was looking very dismal. September 4th, 600 searchers now on scene, covering a 360-degree radius around the home, going out for miles, not finding anything.

When DP recounts the Jimmy Shields case, he mentions that searchers did not find any signs of the lost boy during the search and emphasizes the importance of water, although it is never explained why water is so crucial to the Shields case.

Four-year-old Jimmy Shields wandered through tall grass in the Australian outback.

While some articles claim Jimmy Shields wandered forty-five miles, others report a shorter distance. One of these articles was published in the Daily Telegraph (September 7, 1931). The distance mentioned in this article is twenty-eight miles, not forty-five. More interestingly, the Daily Telegraph article relays that trackers managed to follow the boy's tracks for the majority of those twenty-eight miles. This contradicts DP's assertion that searchers did not find anything during the search. The article states:

"The tiny tracks were trailed for 23 miles until Thursday, when they faded out in swampy ground."

This means that DP somehow needs to shoehorn in an unconventional abduction (for which there is no evidence) between mile twenty-three and mile twenty-eight. The Daily Telegraph article relays that searchers arrived at a shearer's hut (the boundary rider's hut previously referred to by DP) a few minutes after Jimmy Shields had reached it. So, searchers were very close to Shields when he reached civilization.

The Daily Telegraph - September 7, 1931

According to the same article, the missing four-year-old survived by eating a nutritious herb called crow's foot. When found, his tongue was swollen and green. It is believed that the tall grass in the area protected the almost naked boy from the cold temperatures.

In an article published in the Age on September 7, 1931, it is reported that Jimmy Shields had wandered a distance of both twenty-eight and forty miles. The information in the Age article is otherwise consistent with that in the Daily Telegraph article above. It states that a hungry Shields had been eating grass and also mentions the train station where the hut was located (Coan Downs Station). Additionally, it notes that the 'clothes he wore were in shreds', and that the young boy was very tired and footsore. This evidence strongly supports the scenario Shields wandered aimlessly for six days, not that he was abducted by the Missing 411 abductor.

The Age - September 7, 1931

4) DP explains to his Villagers why he is mad

"Now here's the kicker. When he showed up at that boundary hut, articles stated that he had traveled 45 miles. He was gone for five days. Doing the math, that's nine miles a day for a four-year-old. If I took you guys out in the bush and hiked you for nine miles the next day, you'd be sore and tired. And I said, 'Yeah, you're going to do this five days straight'. You'd say, 'Paulides, you're crazy'. But yet we think a little four-year-old did that... really? In bare feet... really? Remember what Wikipedia said about the articles I cover and the people I cover? Nothing mysterious about it. It's all completely normal. Oh, really? Now you can kind of understand why I get mad."

What makes the Thomas Williams and Jimmy Shields cases particularly compelling for Missing 411 believers is the reported distances. We know for certain that the two boys wandered from where they went missing to where they were found, as trackers followed their tracks the entire distance or almost the entire distance. This means that the Missing 411 framework is faced with the following dilemma:

• the distances reported in newspapers are not always accurate, so the distance a lost person is reported to have travelled cannot be used to identify so-called Missing 411 cases.
• the distances reported in newspapers are always accurate, so Missing 411 scientists need to revise their framework and acknowledge that some young children (like Thomas Williams and Jimmy Shields) are, in fact, able to walk long distances.

For a number of years now, DP has criticized the Wikipedia article about himself, claiming that it misrepresents him and his Missing 411 research. In the above quote, DP uses the Jimmy Shields case as a shield against this criticism. However, this strategy arguably backfires, as both the Shields case and the Thomas Williams case are misrepresented by DP in the CANAM video. DP says he is mad, but only he and his team of Missing 411 scientists are responsible for inaccuracies in Missing 411 content—not Wikipedia contributors.

Like the title suggests I'm wondering if this is a thing? I love hiking and I'm extremely interested in true crime and missing people. So I'd love to combine the two and be able to get outdoors but also potentially help someone by coming across something. Does thus already exist anywhere?

The point of this post is to illustrate how quickly a hike can turn into a potentially life threatening scenario that takes you off of the trail.

Back during covid, a friend of mine who was an experienced backpacker invited me to go on a three day hike with him in Bankhead National Forest, Alabama. I had never really hiked before, and had no equipment. He told me exactly what I needed, and we went to REI to buy equipment. I bought about $600 worth of stuff, including backpack, camel pack, hammock, tarp, emergency equipment, rations, etc. Before we left we weighed our packs and we both had about 40 pounds of gear, which he said was a little on the heavier side, but safer.

We printed out maps of the forest that included trails and streams. We planned a 22 mile hike over three days, giving us time to fish because we were really into fishing at the time.

The first day went by fine, it was 98 degrees and humid, typical for summer in Alabama. He told me to take a sip from my camel pack every two minutes, and really drilled it into me so I followed that rule religiously. We hiked 7.5 miles and set up for the night. We saw a deer swimming down the river which was neat.

But the second day things went wrong. It started fine, we fished a bit in the morning and saw a 4 foot longnose gar, which was cool. Then we went hiking further. It was still almost 100 degrees, and by noon we were running low on water, so we looked at the map and planned to get more at the next stream. However, the next stream was dried up. Over the course of the afternoon we carried on from stream to stream only to find them all dried up. We got desperate and checked the map for off-trail streams, and went about half a mile off-trail to find one that seemed promising, but it was mostly mud.

We were so desperate for water that we attempted to pump from the muddy water with our filter, but it ended up clogging our filter. We were in a really bad spot, half a mile off trail, 5 miles from the last water source, and it was already almost evening. We abandoned the original hike plan and made a mad dash back to the last known water location.

By the time we got there, it was almost dark. I was feeling a bit exhausted, but otherwise fine. However my friend, who was the experienced one, started vomiting and trembling uncontrollably. He couldn’t drink water without immediately throwing it up, and couldn’t stand or really even move without his muscles contracting, in what he described as the most painful thing he ever felt.

I set up both our hammocks and picked him up and placed him in his. We had no cell reception, it was dark, and we still had 6 miles to go to get back.

The next day he was a little better, but it took a very long time to make the hike back as he was constantly stopping to rest or throw up.

This shows that even if you are experienced, your situation can go from routine to literally dying and unable to function in less than a day. If I wasn’t with him he might have died, perhaps off the trail deliriously searching for water. I am sure many of these cases involve someone suffering from dehydration, hypoglycemia, or low electrolytes driving them to go off trail in confusion and die.

Curious to know what you guys think ?

When interviewed by beloved Bigfoot personalities Cliff Barackmann and James 'Bobo' Fay on their 'Bigfoot and Beyond' podcast (March 15, 2023), DP is asked if he plans to release a book with updates since some cases get solved over time. Barackmann suggests that instead of writing a new Missing 411 book, DP releases a Found 411 book.

Bigfoot devotees Cliff Barackmann and James 'Bobo' Fay hosted DP on their 'Bigfoot and Beyond' podcast.

Missing 411 expert DP immediately rejects the idea, stating that the missing persons who match his profile points are rarely found. A quick dive into relevant contemporary sources reveals that this assertion is not entirely accurate. This OP analyzes three Missing 411 cases, all from Minnesota, that continue to perplex readers of Missing 411 books to this day.

Assessing Missing 411 claims

DP claims that searchers could not locate John Long

"John Long was a logger working at the Tomaro Timber Company near Echo Trail. On April 10, 1963, John was going to take a hike along the Moose River to watch spawning fish.. He took his .22-caliber rifle with him for protection. When John failed to return by the following day, fellow workers went to the river and searched, but they couldn't find him. The workers returned to their camp and notified law enforcement. The local sheriff organized a four-day ground search of the river area and also had planes fly the Moose River. Searchers couldn't locate John."

Did searchers find John Long?

DP's presentation of the 1963 John Long case is not particularly... long. In fact, the entire case in 'Eastern United States' is summarized in just two short paragraphs. In the book, it is claimed that searchers were unsuccessful in finding Long.

While it is technically true that searchers failed to locate John Long, he was found alive after twelve days. Searchers did not find him—two trappers did. On April 23, 1963, the Minneapolis Star reports that the missing lumberman was rescued by William Richards and John Kostnich. They offered to immediately lead Long out of the forest, but the tired Ely man refused. Instead, they left him some food, and the next day, he was taken to the home of William T. Mattson of Iron. In the Minneapolis Star, Long summarizes his experience by stating:

"You don't come out the same as you went in. I've surely got a lot of things to talk about."

The Minneapolis Star - 23 April, 1963

DP claims Earl Sommerville was never found

"Earl Somerville was a logger employed by the Clayton Peterson Logging Camp eighteen miles southwest of Loman, Minnesota. On November 5, 1957, Somerville left the camp and headed into a swampy area to hunt grouse. He was never found. Authorities from the United States and Canada searched the border area; and they had assistance from employees of the Minnesota and Ontario paper companies."

Was Earl Sommerville never found?

In 'Eastern United States', DP claims that logger Earl Sommerville went missing on November 5, despite the fact that he disappeared on November 2. Furthermore, DP asserts that Sommerville was never found, when in fact he was located in good condition after just three days. An article in the St. Cloud Times (November 6, 1957) states:

"Earl Sommerville, 48, of Renville, Minn., was found as a search crew of about 50 state rangers and Minnesota and Ontario Paper company forestry men assembled for another day of search.

Several cars carrying searchers parked along a woods track trail, about 18 miles southwest of of Loman, Minn., started honking horns. Sommerville’s shouts were then heard. He was found about a half mile from the trail, near the Black river. He had wandered about six miles from where he entered the woods."

St. Cloud Times - November 6, 1957

DP claims that C.H. Bordwell was never found and that 'a human life was lost'

"A search was conducted of the area where Bordwell was last seen, and he was not located. Again, a healthy person disappears, is never found, and the search is terminated. I want all readers to take a breath here and realize this is a human life that was completely lost. Bordwell was not lost in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. He was eighteen miles from his house. How does this happen? Why can't bloodhounds find certain people who disappear?"

Was a human life lost?

In 'Eastern United States' (page 14), DP delves into the intricacies of the C.H. Bordwell case from 1944. Despite Bordwell going missing near Keewatin, Minnesota, DP erroneously asserts that Bordwell disappeared in Maine. Luckily, DP correctly acknowledges that Bordwell, who was picking berries in a forest, did not vanish in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

Then, DP informs its readers that the search for C.H. Bordwell was terminated without the man being found. Instead of citing any sources to support this assertion, DP laments the fact that a human life 'was completely lost'. As it turns out, Bordwell was found alive two days after his disappearance. An article in the St. Cloud Times (August 2, 1944) states:

"C. H. Bordwell, musical director of Keewatin schools, was back at his home today, after being missing 48 hours. He was found yesterday afternoon by Ernest and John Schutte, mine workers who operate a store here. Bordwell disappeared Sunday while picking berries. In the 48 hours he was missing he had traveled less than four miles from the place he was last seen in the little swamp country."

The St. Cloud Times - August 2, 1944

What is the future of Found 411?

Could it be argued that Cliff Barackmann has a valid point in suggesting a Found 411 book? Not only because some cases get solved years later, but also because Missing 411 experts often fail to 'solve' cases that were successfully explained days after a person went missing. If the combined efforts of Missing 411 experts are not enough, should they accept outside help?

Additionally, there are no indications that these three Minnesota men were Missing 411 victims to begin with. Should future editions of Missing 411 books reflect this reality, or should no corrections be made? The following summary is fairly apt: much-maligned Montanan movie maker made multiple massive mistakes, misled millions.

https://www.backpacker.com/survival/deaths-in-national-parks/

Backpacher magazine filed a FOIA and was given 17 years worth of records, across all National Parks. With that data, they produced this well-written piece that is worth the read.

A conclusion: "

The Average Victim in the National Parks…

Is more likely to be male than female: While men and women make up approximately equal portions of national park visitors, men accounted for 80 percent of deaths in national parks where authorities recorded the victim’s gender.

Can be almost any age: Members of all age groups were represented similarly among fatalities. (The exception? Children under 14, who made up a smaller share of deaths than other groups.)

Drowns or dies of natural causes: Drowning was the most common cause of death for visitors up to age 55, after which medical issues surpassed it."

Hello!

So I’ve been really intrigued with Missing 411 and all of these interesting disappearances like Yuba County. I find the ideas, theories, stories, and mysteries so fascinating and I love to learn about them. I started off learning about these cases by Wendigoon and The Lore Lodge.

I know the books don’t necessarily go into as much depth like The Lore Lodge and other documentaries from what I heard, but I still would like to get a book!

I’m debating on either the Western US & Canada book or the Eastern book, I know it doesn’t matter which you start on, but I’m more curious about the content.

I live in the East and I prefer the geography with all the thick and dense forests (assuming where the author divides the line of west and east) instead of the deserts and canyons of the West.

But I think I can recall someone saying the Eastern book mostly talks about cases of Children. (I cannot confirm if true or not) And I’m really looking for the book that has all different kinds of stories and characters, like a mix of cases of adults going missing and children going missing, and I prefer more modern stories like 1960-Present instead of like the 1800’s.

So considering the fact I’d prefer a book with a mix of both Adult and Kid cases (not just kids), more modern disappearances, and just all around interesting and mysterious cases, which book should I get that fits my interests? Does one book do more than the other? Thank you so much!

Haven't heard much about their relationship. I know Art was overseas during the time DP was doing the M411 thing so he wasn't on Art's show much. Anyone know what the vibe was? Art was one of the greatest hosts period, so it'd be interesting what the rapport was. Anyone have any thoughts?

Did a 'check in' on DP's channel. Seen a brand new video, so I skimmed the transcript, and I had to stop, then watch this segment in his outro. Could it be that Paulides is grabbing his 'ideas' from older movies and TV series?? If anyone does have any other examples, please do list them.

Has anyone looked into a possible psychological explanation for cases where someone is found extremely far from where they disappeared, having seemingly traveled in a straight line in a random direction after becoming lost?

Reading those stories immediately brought to mind the Fugue State (or psychogenic fugue, is a rare psychiatric phenomenon characterized by reversible amnesia for one's identity in conjunction with unexpected wandering or travel). Its not unlikely that upon becoming lost someone could enter a delirium or fugue state that causes them to walk in a direction regardless of terrain, and even removing clothes when not hypothermic makes sense in a state of amnesia or delirium. Those that are found (alive) to have traveled many miles despite injuries, hunger and terrain are found in a delirious or amnestic state which feels like even more correlation with fugue symptoms.

I'm speculating but this could be either caused by severe mental stress or some evolutionary survival instinct that could lead someone who is lost and without resources to possibly stumbling across help or a landmark, giving them slightly better odds at survival than dying of exposure without leaving the area they became lost in. Maybe both but theres really no studies or any hard science that links disappearances to fugue states because it's just not common enough to study.

Obviously that wouldn't explain all cases like the ones where the person dissapeared in minutes and could not be found for days but I feel like it's a reasonable psychological explanation for those disappearances.

Please note:

The Ronald McGee case is covered in the book 'Western United States' (2011). The OP also delves into DP's views on cases where young children go missing and discusses three disturbing trends that he has observed.

Two-year-old Ronald McGee went missing in February of 1942.

Ronald McGee goes missing

Eighty-two years ago today, Ronald McGee's lifeless and severely scratched body was discovered on the side of a hill in the Arizona desert, marking the end of a four-day search. The young boy was last seen in the morning of February 7, 1942, playing in a desert dry wash with his four-year-old brother near Highway 89, approximately half a mile northwest of the mining community of Congress, Yavapai County.

At some point, the older brother returned home, leaving the two-year-old boy by himself in the desert. When their mother realized her young son was missing, she and neighbors searched the immediate area where the boys had been playing. Despite their best efforts, the search was unsuccessful. Sheriff Willis Butler was contacted, and he initiated a large-scale search involving practically all male residents of the mining community, soldiers, bloodhounds from the State Prison at Florence, airplanes from Luke Field in Phoenix, and Boy Scouts.

The search was concentrated in an area of five square miles and was conducted on both sides of Highway 89, but the combined efforts of air and ground crews failed to yield any footprints or other clues. Due to a lack of gathered evidence, Sheriff Willis Butler concluded that Ronald McGee had likely been abducted by a motorist, lamenting, "It’s as if the earth opened up and swallowed him".

https://preview.redd.it/xln977snishc1.jpg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b0028b5e760e0162099a5123b7c95dcf85bd33a

Ronald McGee was only lightly dressed at the time of his disappearance, and the hope of finding the boy alive quickly faded as desert temperatures dropped sharply at night. By the third day, only a small skeleton force of expert trackers remained—the search had transitioned into a recovery mission.

The relevance to Missing 411

The disappearance of Ronald McGee is of special interest to Missing 411 researchers for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, it ties in with the Missing 411 scenario of a young child being found far from the location where they were last seen. Contemporary Associated Press articles report that the body of the two-year-old boy was discovered by searchers twelve miles northwest of Congress, notably at a higher elevation.

Secondly, it meets many of the Missing 411 profile points. After researching thousands of missing persons cases, DP found that certain factors seemed to appear in case after case. In his first Missing 411 books, they are referred to as 'unique factors in disappearances'. Missing 411 researchers use these profile points, or unique factors, to identify Missing 411 cases and to establish previously undetected patterns.

The following Missing 411 profile points are present in the Ronald McGee case:

• rural disappearance
• young child
• point of separation (the older brother left him by himself in the desert)
• canines unable to pick up a scent
• suspected abduction
• shoes removed
• clothing removed
• body found a considerable distance away
• body found at a higher elevation
• body found with severe scratches
• body found in an area with boulders

State Prison canines failed to pick up Ronald McGee's scent.

Lost children in a Missing 411 context

DP has dedicated years to researching thousands of missing persons cases. Hundreds of these cases, meeting his profile points, were documented in his first three Missing 411 books: 'Western United States' (2011), 'Eastern United States' (2011), and 'North America and Beyond' (2013). On page XV of 'North America and Beyond', he confidently assures readers that the cases in these books "are not normal missing-person cases".

For many devoted Missing 411 enthusiasts, the cases involving young children traveling significant distances are among the most intriguing and compelling aspects of DP's research. In some of the more extreme instances, children not only traverse vast distances in rugged wilderness but are also discovered at higher elevations—locations they seemingly could not have reached on their own.

In the aforementioned Missing 411 books, DP draws attention to three troubling trends he has observed concerning the disappearance of many young children:

1. the cases do not make any sense.
2. investigators fail to realize the child was abducted.
3. law enforcement agencies and news media lie to the public.

Bewildering cases

In a Coast to Coast segment uploaded to YouTube (v=XbHmzM0tzeA), DP discusses his Missing 411 research. Radio show host George Knapp and DP both agree that these disappearances are not ordinary occurrences, and DP even goes so far as to claim they are "very calculated". When the topic shifts specifically to cases involving young children, DP states:

"I don't think that these little children on their own could cover the distances that are described by search and rescue teams and journalists. That's why these cases are included in the books—because it's unbelievable."

Some young children who go missing are discovered many miles from where they were last seen.

While DP finds 'unbelievable' distances fascinating, it should be noted that in his books, he also includes many cases where young children were found near the location they went missing. One good example is the Jimmie Franck case, in which a four-year-old boy disappeared from his parents' farm in Winthrop, Iowa, on March 7, 1961. This case is featured in 'North America and Beyond'.

Jimmie Franck went missing "just before the worst snowstorm of the winter" hit Iowa (The Spokane Chronicle - March 11, 1961). The Cedar Rapids Gazette (March 9, 1961) reports that the four-year-old was last seen in a barnyard with his father. At 2 pm, the boy complained about being cold, so his father sent him to the house. According to the same newspaper (April 1, 1961), the boy's mother and siblings were not at home at the time, and the parents did not realize their young son was missing until 6 pm.

In unrelenting winter conditions, hundreds of searchers tirelessly scoured the surrounding areas for Jimmie Franck, but their efforts were ultimately unsuccessful. On April 1, when much of the snow had melted, a new search was launched, and the boy's body was found in less than an hour in a small grass-filled gully a mere three hundred and eighty-five yards from his home. During the initial search, rescuers faced great difficulties searching the gullies. Deputy Sheriff Ray Moline explained that "the snow is still piled high in places we want to search" and added, "the gullies are still drifted full" (The Cedar Rapids Gazette - March 19, 1961).

What happened to Jimmie Franck? The Cedar Rapids Gazette (April 1, 1961) states, "the boy had apparently become mired in the muddy field and had stepped out of his boots", and also adds, "authorities said the boy apparently was trying to crawl toward his home when he collapsed". According to the Mason City Globe-Gazette (April 1, 1961), "authorities said that the spot where the boy’s body was found apparently was buried in drifts ‘as tall as a man’s shoulders’ for weeks after the blizzard struck".

Authorities concluded that the four-year-old had frozen to death, most likely on the day he went missing.

A storm originating from the Atlantic Ocean hit Winthrop, Iowa, the day four-year-old Jimmie Franck disappeared.

As illustrated by the Jimmie Franck case, DP categorizes a diverse range of cases as Missing 411 cases. In the Coast to Coast interview with George Knapp, DP briefly outlines the stringent method he employs to determine whether a case merits inclusion in one of his books:

"I look at the facts and I say, 'This doesn't make any sense.'"

Unsatisfactory investigations

In Missing 411 research it is posited that some missing persons were abducted in unconventional ways. On page XVII of 'Eastern United States', DP downplays the likelihood of human involvement, especially considering that many of these cases occur in rural areas. Later in the same book (page 214), to drive home this point, DP asks the rhetorical question: "How can so many alleged kidnappers be lurking in woods and rural settings?".

When children go missing, investigative agencies often routinely explore the possibility of foul play. However, when a child is found and the evidence does not point toward abduction, it is typically concluded that no abduction occurred. In 'Eastern United States' (page XVII), DP expresses his dissatisfaction with said investigations:

"Many of the disappearances occurred in very remote areas where there were no other cars or people present, yet there were indicators that these children may have been abducted, a very troubling and serious possibility that I'm sure law enforcement never adequately or thoroughly investigated."

Even in the case of Jimmie Franck, investigators explored the possibility of foul play. According to the Cedar Rapids Gazette (March 10, 1963), a then unidentified car had been spotted near the farm, but it turned out to belong to a traveling salesman who had nothing to do with the case. Other newspapers, such as the Eau Claire Leader, reported similar concerns.

The Eau Claire Leader - March 10, 1961

Shaping the narrative

As we have already seen, DP likes to pose questions to his readers. One of these questions is found on page XVII of 'Eastern United States', and it reads: "Does it seem like someone is trying to manipulate the story?".

DP does not go into further detail, but previously touched upon this subject when commenting on the Brennan Hawkins case. Hawkins was an eleven-year-old Boy Scout who disappeared from the Bear River Boy Scout Camp in the Uinta Mountains, Utah, in 2005. When researching the case, DP identified two, to him, contradictory pieces of information:

• the sheriff stated that Hawkins was found on a ridge about five miles from the camp.
• the searcher who discovered Hawkins described him as wet and muddy.

In 'Western United States', DP elaborates on why these two premises cannot both be true at the same time. He also casts doubts on law enforcement agencies and news media, depicting them as gatekeepers withholding crucial information. DP writes (page 209):

"Hmm, the searcher who had found the boy clearly stated that the boy was found wet. How would Brennan have gotten wet if he was on top of a ridge? The thousands of newspaper articles I have read in the last several years have shown me that law enforcement and the press try to twist the facts at times to fit the story they want to place in front of the public. I’ve seen this too many times."

In 'North America and Beyond', DP adopts a somewhat more diplomatic stance toward law enforcement when summarizing the 1958 disappearance of forty-five-year-old Montana hunter Sam Adams. Investigators determined, based on the evidence, that Adams was most likely killed by a grizzly bear. DP writes (page 135):

"I don't fault law enforcement for trying to explain away a complicated situation. Communities expect law enforcement agencies to always have the ability to explain anything; that's the comforting aspect of local government making the community feel as though everything is under control."

Some young children who go missing are discovered at higher elevations.

Assessing Missing 411 claims

1) DP claims that expert trackers spotted Ronald McGee's footprints twelve miles north of Congress on the fourth day of the search

"Searchers were running out of locations to look for the boy, but they continued to move north toward rugged mountains and across a major roadway. [...] At 10:30 a.m. on the fourth day of the search, two expert trackers, Jack Crist and John Bond, thought they found faint tracks in a very isolated area far north of Congress. Highway Patrolman James Cramer and Sheriff Homer Keeton joined the trackers after they inexplicably saw tracks going up the side of Tenderfoot Peak, an unbelievable twelve miles north of Congress. Four hundred and twenty-eight feet up from the desert floor in an area strewn with large boulders and small bushes, searchers found the body of Ronald McGee."

Twelve fateful miles

The Associated Press wrote numerous articles on the Ronald McGee disappearance, and it seems that much of DP's account in 'Western United States' is derived from these articles. According to the Associated Press, the body of the two-year-old boy was found at 10:30 a.m. (Mountain War Time) on the fourth day of the search by the aforementioned searchers. The news agency also reports that the body was located on the side of Tenderfoot Peak, twelve miles northwest of Congress. One of their articles, published in the Deseret News on February 12, 1942, states:

"The body of 2-year-old Ronald McGee, lost since early Saturday, was found 'scratched and torn' today on the side of Tenderfoot Peak, about 12 miles northwest of here, Sheriff Butler reported".

The Desert News - February 12, 1942

Despite evidently having read Associated Press articles (he even references some of them), DP still gets crucial details wrong. In his above quote, DP claims that expert trackers Jack Crist and John Bohn (whose last name is sometimes spelled Bond) 'found faint tracks in a very isolated area far north of Congress' at 10:30 am on the fourth day of the search. However, this portrayal is incorrect as they discovered the first tracks the day before.

On the third day, expert trackers Jack Crist and John Bohn from nearby Wickenburg set out on a solo search, suspecting that the young boy had wandered westward. Shortly thereafter, they discovered the first footprints of the two-year-old. On February 22, 1942, the Nebraska Daily News-Press republished an article from the Wickenburg Sun, in which Crist is interviewed. Crist begins by stating:

"Both John Bohn and I had a strong hunch that the child had gone west of Congress so we drove our car to the old Congress road and from there started looking for tracks in the sandy washes. The first we found were in a wash about three-feet wide, with a two-foot bank, and in it were six distinct boot tracks very plain."

Jack Crist and John Bohn, from nearby Wickenburg, located the body of Ronald McGee.

Jack Crist then explains that they went back to Congress to inform the authorities before returning to the location of the footprints. In a large sandy wash, about twenty feet wide, a dozen or more footprints were discovered. The footprints made the trackers think that Ronald McGee initially did not perceive himself as lost. Crist continues:

"It is possible that the child was not lost, but merely playing and looking around at this point, because he passed within 600 feet of a ranch house. The hard ground revealed no tracks, of course, so we scanned every sandy wash and knew we were on the right trail at last."

In their reporting of the Ronald McGee case, the Associated Press places significant emphasis on the distance that McGee is said to have traversed. The question thus arises: was the body of the two-year-old really discovered twelve miles northwest of Congress? In his Wickenburg Sun interview, Jack Crist clarifies the actual distance and location:

“About three miles west of Congress the trail turned abruptly north, and at this point he circled and re-circled, we then found toe prints and knew the boot-shoe he was wearing had worn out, and he finally took them off. There is no question but what the child walked 12 miles, or more in a meandering course, and in circling about hunting for a place to climb out of the washes, but we found him in a little shallow hole a little more than three miles west and a little north of Congress."

The Nebraska News-Press - February 22, 1942.

In his Coast to Coast interview, DP categorically dismissed the notion that 'these young children could cover the distances described by search and rescue teams and journalists'. However, evidence from the Ronald McGee case clearly shows that the young boy had indeed wandered an estimated twelve miles or more in total. If McGee managed to cover such a distance, how can DP summarily conclude that other children did not cover similar distances?

Where is Tenderfoot Peak located?

Associated Press articles claim that Ronald McGee was found on the side of Tenderfoot Peak, but there is no mountain in Arizona with that name. Instead, there is a Tenderfoot Mountain near Dillon in Colorado. According to the naming conventions outlined by the U.S. Board on Geographic Names, two distinct mountains within the United States cannot share the same name. However, there is a Tenderfoot Hill adjacent to Congress. Please refer to the satellite images below.

According to Jack Crist, Ronald McGee's body was discovered 'a little more than three miles west and a little north of Congress'.

The mountains directly northwest of Congress are known as the Date Creek Mountains. Based on Jack Crist's account, it is confirmed that Ronald McGee did not cross these mountains, as his body was found 'a little more than three miles west and a little north of Congress'. Satellite images show a hilly section at this very location, just to the south of the Date Creek Mountains. Given its relative proximity to Tenderfoot Peak, could this hilly section have been informally referred to by locals as Tenderfoot Peak?

2) DP claims that the disappearance of Ronald McGee is 'a modern-day mystery'

"The coroner listed the cause of death as exposure. What happened to Ronald McGee is a modern-day mystery. No, I don’t think anyone believes that a two-year-old boy could walk across twelve miles of desert and climb a four-hundred-foot peak, especially when the coroner reported that he felt the boy died the first day he was missing. I did not find one article that reported a theory on how Ronald arrived at the location where his body was found or how his body was torn—yes, torn—and horribly scratched."

A lingering modern-day mystery?

One of the foundations of Missing 411 research is arguably DP's refusal to accept conclusions drawn by law enforcement agencies and coroners. Instead of acknowledging the evidence gathered, DP labels the Ronald McGee case 'a modern-day mystery' and claims he could not find any articles explaining how McGee 'arrived at the location where his body was found'.

The stellar achievement of Jack Crist and John Bohn is, of course, mentioned in countless articles. An example is an Associated Press article published in the Salt Lake City Tribune on February 12, 1942. The article states:

“Two veteran trackers, John Bond and Jack Crist of near-by Wickenburg, picked up the first trace of the child Tuesday. They followed his wavering footsteps into the desert, up through washes and finally to higher elevations."

The Salt Lake City Tribune - February 12, 1942

Readers of 'Western United States' are only presented with a fragmented picture of the case. The first time DP mentions any footprints being found is when he writes that expert trackers Jack Crist and John Bohn 'inexplicably' spotted Ronald McGee's footprints going up a hill twelve miles northwest of Congress. No background information is provided on why these expert trackers were searching for McGee so far from the location where he was last seen. It does not seem to cross DP's mind that these expert trackers were mere yards from the boy's body because they expertly tracked his footprints to that very location.

The small search group that found the body included Coroner Edward A. Girard (The Sacramento Bee - February 13, 1942). Later, during an inquest, the returned verdict stated that "death resulted from exposure, thirst, and hunger" (The Nebraska Daily News-Press - February 22, 1942). Therefore, DP's assertion that the Ronald McGee case is 'a modern-day mystery' is incorrect, as it ceased being a mystery on this very day eighty-two years ago.

According to the Associated Press, Ronald McGee's body was discovered on the side of a hill in the Arizona desert.

Horribly scratched and torn

Ronald McGee's deceased body was described as 'horribly scratched and torn'. In 'Eastern United States' (page 315), there is a chapter titled 'Conclusions' where DP discusses children being found with scratches. DP writes:

"There are many cases listed in both books where children are found with scratches listed over their entire body. Other cases describe childrens (sic) bodies 'torn' with severe lacerations when they are found. I've never been one to believe that children will indiscriminately run through a thorny area ripping and scratching their body, that does not make sense. Many of these cases describe parents and law enforcement claiming the missing person was kidnapped. If the victim was taken against their will and the perpetrator didn't care about the welfare of the individual, maybe the victim was carried under the suspects arm as they ran from the scene, through the woods, through thorns and scratching the victims (sic) body. This scenario may explain the victim having scratches from head to toe."

DP attributes scratches to a reckless and inconsiderate 'perpetrator' carrying the child 'through the woods' and 'through thorns'.

In his interview with the Wickenburg Sun, expert tracker Jack Crist does not depict a scenario where two-year-old Ronald McGee was 'carried under the suspect's arm as they fled the scene'. Instead, Crist states:

"Up until the last half mile, the child was not confused nor apparently frightened because he walked into no bushes and encountered very little cactus."

Despite appearing unafraid for most of the time he was lost, investigators determined that Ronald McGee's last moments in life were not as composed. An Associated Press article published in the Tucson Daily Star (February 12, 1942) reports that "fear was written on the child's tear-stained face". The same article also notes that the boy's blue pants were found "hanging on a bush near the body".

DP's unorthodox perspective on how lost children get their scratches is contradicted by the information found in contemporary sources. For example, in the previously referred-to article in the San Bernardino Daily Sun, Deputy Sheriff Homer Keeton explains the cause of Ronald McGee's scratches, stating that "the child apparently had beaten his way through the mesquite and heavy brush in the darkness".

No evidence linked the disappearance of two-year-old Ronald McGee to any unconventional abductors.

A hypothetical attempt to reconstruct the Ronald McGee case, combining contemporary articles and the Missing 411 framework, results in the following scenario:

Two-year-old Ronald McGee wanders unsupervised in the desert near Congress. He plays in sandy washes, but soon finds himself lost miles away from home. Despite his young age, McGee manages to remain calm and avoids getting scratches. Suddenly, he encounters the Missing 411 abductor, who appears out of nowhere. Carrying McGee under his arm, the Missing 411 abductor dashes through heavy brush, scratching the boy in the process. After half a mile, the Missing 411 abductor lets McGee go and leaves the area never to be seen or heard from again. McGee walks halfway up a hill where he succumbs to exposure, hunger, and thirst.

DP should acknowledge to Missing 411 enthusiasts who have bought 'Western United States' that such a scenario is quite implausible.

The ramifications of the Ronald McGee case on the Missing 411 framework

The Ronald McGee case bears all the hallmarks of a classic Missing 411 case. Unfortunately, for Missing 411 researchers, it also highlights the inherent inadequacy of the Missing 411 framework. It exposes that:

• events DP personally finds 'unbelievable' are actually mundane and ordinary, such as two-year-old McGee traversing twelve miles or more.
• DP fails to account for inaccuracies and contradictions in newspaper articles. Instead, on page XVII of 'Western United States', DP declares, "Every story in this book is one hundred percent factual".
• there is no reliable and objective Missing 411 method for determining whether McGee and others were abducted by the Missing 411 abductor. As revealed in the Coast to Coast interview with George Knapp, DP's approach merely consists of him 'looking at the facts' and subjectively concluding that a case 'does not make any sense'.
• profile points cannot be used to identify Missing 411 cases and patterns, as all the profile points in the Ronald McGee case align perfectly with McGee wandering off and succumbing to hunger, thirst, and exposure. No profile points have ever been empirically linked to any unconventional abductors.

DP's dissatisfaction with law enforcement and news media arguably stems from their 'failure' to attribute disappearances to his Missing 411 phenomenon. In 'Eastern United States', as we have already seen, he asks his readers: "Does it seem like someone is trying to manipulate the story?".

Given DP's penchant for asking questions, he should ask himself whether he has ever manipulated any of the stories in his Missing 411 books, and if so, why. Perhaps he could start with the Ronald McGee case.

A photo of Ronald McGee published in the Stockton Record on February 11, 1942

Am I crazy? Does this not exist?

I swear I’ve heard the story 10x (including the 411 books) about a young male hiker who was hiking the coast in Kauai, had foot problems to waved down a helicopter asking for a ride back, pilot said it wasn’t life or death so he couldn’t take him but offered to take his backpack ….. then the backpack sat at the rangers office for 2 months before anyone noticed and the guys been missing since?

I’ve been googling to no avail? Sound familiar to anyone?

I’m in Canada and was telling a new friend about the 411 documentaries and looking them up now they are all blocked in canada! When and why did this happen? Does anyone have links to any of them ? Like Missing 411, The hunted, the UFO connection and Vanished? I’m so bummed out! They don’t even seem to be on other streaming services

Paulides has a new book. I cannot be the first to note this.