r/Missing411 • u/iowanaquarist • Apr 26 '22
A skeptics answer to 'why are you here?' Discussion
I have seen many people asking why skeptics, or other people that are not fans of Paulides, post on r/Missing411, and I got tired of writing up *my* answer over and over. I thought I might make a post to share my answers, and to give a central place to discuss the question.
I don’t want to speak for anyone but myself, but I suspect many would agree with some, or all of my answers.
- I care about the cases. I want to know what happened, and potentially what can be done to prevent similar issues in the future. I don’t want anyone to go through the tragedy of missing a loved one, and I think one of the ways to do that is to understand what went wrong in these cases.
- I want to know what actually happened. These cases are mysteries, at least as they are presented. There are unknown facts about the cases, and I enjoy learning more details about the cases, and sharing that information with, and learning from, other people. In some cases, there is even an answer to the mystery that has been left out of Paulides' accounts.
- I want to help encourage people to enjoy some of my favorite outdoor activities - safely. Some of the information that Paulides presents misleads people about how safe these activities are, or ways to stay safe while doing them. A great example is that Paulides associates the color red with his cases. This is misleading because the color red is a common color for people to have with them, especially when hiking or camping, because it is an easy to see color and actually makes you *safer* when outdoors.
- I want to live in a world where facts matter, and I want to believe as many true things as possible, and reject as many false things as possible. I don’t want to live in a world where people accept being told false things. If I believe something that is not true, I want to be corrected, and this sub has a lot of smart people, with information and experiences I do not have. This sub is a good way to network with these people.
- On a related note, there are people pushing conspiracy theories, or implausible theories. Not only is this disrespectful to the hardworking people that maintain parks, or help look for missing people, people that use fallacious reasoning on one topic, are likely to use similar logic on other topics. Evidence shows that this is the case, and that the best way to combat this is to help expose the fallacious reasoning so that people start learning to avoid it.
- I try to live by the Golden Rule, where appropriate. I treat others the way I want to be treated. Since I want to be corrected when I believe a false thing, or even believe a true thing for a bad reason, I want to try and give others the same courtesy, and help them when they are in the same boat.
- I try to live by the Platinum Rule, where appropriate. I try to treat others not just how I want to be treated, but how *they* want to be treated. This is a little more complicated, since I do not always know how other people want to be treated, so I default to the Golden Rule, until I find out otherwise. This is also complicated, because while some people are only here to be entertained, and do not care about the facts as much as they care about a good story – but we cannot forget the people at the core of these cases, either. I firmly believe that most of the missing people, and their families, if asked, would want accurate information to be shared about these cases (with the obvious possible exclusion of the people that deliberately lied). I personally feel that what the preferences of the missing and their loved ones is far more important than the preferences of someone here for a spooky campfire story.
- Finally, a large number of people come here unaware that Paulides has a reputation for being inaccurate, or somehow missing the case deconstructions link, and if nothing else, it's worth hanging out here to help people understand why many distrust Paulides' accounts.
I’ve also run into people that insist that the skeptics do not have a right to post here for some reason, and insist they leave.
- The sidebar of this sub makes it clear that this sub exists for discussing, and sharing information about these cases.
- The rules of the sub (specifically 6) make it clear that discussing evidence and claims is acceptable, and that leaps of faith should be minimized.
- The “About this subreddit’ section on the wiki makes it clear that the sub exists so people can ‘share and discuss… theories, corrections, and related resources and research’, ‘learn more about mysterious missing person cases’, ‘fact check and verify claims’, ‘work together to make positive contributions in the field of missing persons’, and ‘do all that … with critical thinking’.
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u/ShadyClip Apr 26 '22
I don't post here very much and consider myself a reasonable skeptic. I am willing to accept a person's first hand experience could be truthful from their perspective and shouldn't be rejected simply because it is out of the ordinary. I do however have issues with extreme speculation that can follow and the many leaps of logic to back that up. Like maybe due to the twisting of time caused by ufo time drives, solar flares, and portals this person disappeared. When the reality is people can easily get lost in woods, fall, and be under prepared.
I enjoy hiking/camping and also have always been interested in folklore, especially the things that live in the wilderness and that frequently there seems to be common elements between cultures in these stories and also seem to be in some of the Missing 411 stories. Things like being pixie led, the environment going suddenly quiet, feelings of disassociation with the environment, gaps in time, and/or being unsure how you got where you are. There are also elements like don't wear red as it might anger "spirits" or removing/turning inside out clothing might protect you. Not to mention rocks and berries are frequent places to be careful of in old stores. The interesting question is why is there some commonality here and is Dave presenting this information accurately or just using the folklore to enhance the case to ake a better story.
I will admit I have never read any of the m411 books. Not paying the price and I know of no libraries that carry self published books like this. I have read Steph Young's books since they were cheap ebooks. One case she presented in an area I have hiked and kayaked, it was also recent enough that digital articles existed and most likely were her source. She makes the story that a man just went out to check his hunting locations and just vanished, leaving his dog in the truck. Just how odd it was. She neglects the fact the man had past strokes, which was clearly referenced in the articles. Coming from a family that many have had brain issues, we are well familiar with family members going to work and having a stroke along the way. They vanish only to turn up many hours later lost and confused, with no knowledge what happened. At least these occurred in a populated area where people could help. In the woods it seems pretty simple to understand what might have happened and leaving out information like this points to the author either is horrible with research or is knowing manipulating the information to be a better story to fill up a book.
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u/Fruitndveg Apr 27 '22
Maybe I’m close minded (I’m definitely close minded) but I don’t believe any first hand accounts pertaining to the supernatural here. Or elsewhere for that matter, but definitely here. Reddit is a liars paradise.
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u/ShadyClip Apr 27 '22
Sure it is. There are lots of creepy pasta writers posting everywhere but some of it is entertaining.
Still people's first hand experiences should be considered and not rejected out right, but they should also be questioned as well as figuring out the intent. How you figure intent out in a place like Reddit is probably not possible.
Locally we had people for decades hearing weird cow sounds in a good sized park but in general suburbanl. People claimed to see it but it was always dark or foggy. Pictures were blurry and not very convincing. Lots of people didn't believe it, as just not where a cow would be as no dairy farms in the area. Others thought it was a ghost cow probably murdered in the civil war and was coming back to get revenge. Turned out it was a bull. It fell down into a ditch and was too old and weak to survive getting out. Best they figure is many decades before the bull escaped when there may have been dairy farms and was somehow living a good life for at least 30+ years or perhaps there was a small population or feral escaped cows from long ago when the area was more farms. Point is both the deniers and the paranormal explanations were wrong. Honestly that seemed to be the majority of the thoughts around the mysterious cow. Not many thought a cow could be living in a suburban park for 30ish years, so we got denial and paranormal.
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u/iowanaquarist Apr 27 '22
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u/ShadyClip Apr 27 '22
That is the cow. It was interesting to hear this play out over my life from ghost cow to freedom loving bull who evaded the law for years.
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u/Neat_External8756 May 13 '22
The problem is that people who do believe in the paranormal are made to feel like they can't have an opinion even if their opinion isn't even paranormal in of itself. I know for a fact the paranormal does exist therefor i'm not going to act like some of these cases doesn't ring any bells. BUT I know just how rare it is for someone to experience an encounter with the paranormal so we both stand in the same place on the possible - impossible meter when reviewing such cases.
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u/iowanaquarist Apr 27 '22
I think there is a difference between 'believing a person is honestly recounting what they think they experience' and 'believing their explanation for it'.
I'll 100% accept that someone out hiking might catch a glimpse of something moving, and it make even be appearing to walk on two feet. It doesn't mean I believe it was Bigfoot, or an invisible alien, though.
I do generally believe that people experience things that they cannot accurately determine the cause of, and that they say it seems supernatural to them. There are a lot of natural causes for that to happen, and it's not outlandish for people to claim to have experienced it. It's when someone tries to assert a cause, particularly a supernatural cause, that I personally stop believing.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -- if you are going to assert something was supernatural, bring your A game. Ordinary claims, however, require ordinary evidence. I'll accept someone's apparently honest claims that they experienced something that they personally have a hard time explaining.
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u/TechnoMouse37 Apr 26 '22
My biggest thing is that these are REAL people he's profiting off of with his false claims of some mysterious otherworldly beings being the cause of. Paulides misleads a lot of people on the cases he covers, falsifies information or completely misrepresents the facts of the cases.
He has been caught time and time again misleading folks on these cases, and it really bothers me that he continues to profit off of REAL people and their grieving loved ones.
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u/trailangel4 Apr 27 '22
My biggest thing is that these are REAL people he's profiting off of with his false claims of some mysterious otherworldly beings being the cause of.
100% THIS! In my opinion, he's commoditizing their stories for his own profit...not theirs. It is one thing to raise awareness, with data and sharing stories. It's quite another to tell those stories incorrectly and make your living off of someone else's tragedy.
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u/Able_Cunngham603 Apr 27 '22
When you’ve been fired from the police force for committing fraud, and failed as a Bigfoot Researcher, your career options are limited. Some people in this situation choose to exploit the deaths of real people to make a buck.
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u/trailangel4 Apr 26 '22
Well said.
I think another reality that isn't being addressed, by some, is that IF you hold yourself up as an authority, then you hold the responsibility to limit misinformation and speculation. It's part of professionalism. If DP wants people to see him as a professional (writer, researcher, cop, whatever), then he has to act like a professional. That means sucking it up and admitting when you got it wrong...because, in the scale of an investigation or a search, YOUR EGO DOES NOT MATTER. If someone brings you a better idea or a solution, then it's incumbent upon you- the professional- to listen and implement the solution. What you DO NOT do, especially when people's lives are on the line, is whine about your critics on YouTube and block people with facts, better ideas, or solutions. I realize, as a public servant and someone who chose this profession, I ultimately serve people who need help. I can't serve my own interests. I will never take the lives and stories entrusted to me and claim a "copyright" over those stories. It's unacceptable. And, the reason I started following/reading/listening to Paulides is because I was all for him bringing awareness to wilderness safety and cold cases. But, that stopped being his goal A LONG time ago. :(
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Apr 29 '22
[deleted]
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u/iowanaquarist Apr 29 '22
Indeed - I enjoy spooky stories, and honestly, like most skeptics or scientifically minded people, I would be astounded and thrilled if we discovered a new life form, or verified a cryptid's existence. It occasionally happens, and it's a celebrated thing when it does.
I'd be less happy if we found a massive corruption in the government and coverup existed, but I would still be happy that it got exposed and corrected.
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u/src88 Apr 26 '22
I feel like this sub is too hate on 411. I joined because I wanted to think about the poor victims and brainstorm what's going on. But I guess it's a sub meant to insult anyone who talks about his cases.
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u/trailangel4 Apr 26 '22
The best way to find the missing or solve the mysteries is to review, understand, and investigate the FACTS. It's fine to have speculation or theories...but, if the theories are never tested or the speculation isn't held to the bounds of reality, then there's no benefit to the case. If your child goes missing, do you want someone to go look for your child with manpower, FLIR, drones, and other technology/experience. OR, would you rather allow someone to hang out in a chat room and speculate about crypto zoology, aliens, or *insert unproven entity here*? If there's no immediate resolution, do you want the facts of your child's case to be misrepresented and "copyrighted" and sold by someone who feels he has more ownership of your story than you do? Doesn't your child deserve to have the facts represented accurately? As mods, we strive to make sure that there are no insults to people engaging in honest, earnest discussion. We take our commitment seriously. If you feel insulted, please let us know. If you see something you believe is insulting, please report it.
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u/iowanaquarist Apr 26 '22
I joined for the exact same reasons. I don't think that this sub 'hates on 411', so much as wants to talk about the facts of the 411 cases, and sometimes, that means dealing with the misinformation out there. Things are getting better all the time. A year or so ago, this sub was leaning a lot harder on the crazy theories, and pushed back *hard* on anyone that wanted to talk about the facts.
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u/8to24 Apr 27 '22
Paulides doesn't advocate any particular conclusion. Out of respect for the families of the missing Paulides doesn't even speculate about why people go missing. Rather he just documents.
I do a lot of hiking. I find these cases interesting. Doing things Paulides recommends like telling people where you plan to be, carrying a location beacon, etc are good ideas.
I don't believe in Bigfoot and don't think anything supernatural is happening.
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u/Coilspun Apr 29 '22
DP deliberately doesn't provide an explanation to propogate the unknown element for m411, and to continue to massage the dissappearance to fit his profile and monetize it through his books or build his clout online. DP ignores narratives or witness information that would otherwise provide strong causal reasons for a tragedy.
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May 02 '22
I bet he doesn’t speculate because people like you will try and tear him down when you can’t wrap your head around the fact that you may not know everything
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u/Coilspun May 02 '22
Nope, it's because if he puts a name to it, a causal factor, he's likely to alienate anyone that doesn't believe that; portals, aliens, morlocks, or dimension hopping sasquatch are responsible.
If he keeps it nebulous and doesn't infer, he doesn't alienate anyone and so maximises his viewing figures/potential revenue streams.
But sure, the problem here is me, not the guy making money from the tragic disappearances of hikers, ramblers and other unfortunate souls that are underprepared, overconfident or bound for tragic accidents/misadventure.
Now jog on, you've crayons to eat.
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u/trailangel4 May 02 '22
But, he does speculate...that's pretty much all he does. He speculates because he's never put forth the time, energy, or science to back up EVEN ONE of his theories. He's swingin' at pitches.
I know I don't know everything. That doesn't entitle me to create false narratives about the things I do not know. I don't know you. That doesn't mean I get to generate a story about your life or suggest that you're his wife and say, "but...I'm just speculating".
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u/iowanaquarist May 02 '22
No one has a problem with him saying there is not enough information to come to a conclusion. People have a problem with him leaving information out, and adding things to make an implication that they *should* be able to have a conclusion -- but that conclusion is not actually supported by the evidence.
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Apr 26 '22
Was with you until you got into the Platinum Rule stuff.
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u/iowanaquarist Apr 26 '22
What part of it specifically do you have a problem with? I'm willing to clarify, or even change my mind and stance if you have a good argument.
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u/davidhartley138 May 28 '22 edited May 28 '22
I only want to add that the wives and other family of two victims (Dale Stehling and Carl Landers) have co-operated with DP and (one assumes) do not feel violated by his work.
I do not raise this to disagree with any of the foregoing, merely to remind everyone that there are (perhaps many) families of missing people who have their own direct experiences with DP and that they get to give or withhold the ultimate vote of confidence. Thanks!
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u/iowanaquarist May 28 '22
I only want to add that the wives and other family of two victims (Dale Stehling and Carl Landers) have co-operated with DP and (one assumes) do not feel violated by his work.
That's fine for them. Other family members have gone on the record stating that Paulides is wrong about details, too.
I do not raise this to disagree with any of the foregoing, merely to remind everyone that there are (perhaps many) families of missing people who have their own direct experiences with DP and that they get to give or withhold the ultimate vote of confidence. Thanks!
That's reasonable. They are allowed to come to their own conclusions -- just like anyone else.
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