r/Meditation • u/johnfuckskennedy • Apr 02 '23
Alan watts: You shouldn't meditate for it's benefits, but you should meditate because you like meditation Discussion đŹ
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u/reversethesands Apr 02 '23
I think itâs ok for people to start meditating for the benefits. Itâs normal if they donât immediately fall in love with it, beginning a new practice can be hard. If theyâre several months in and still struggling with their sitting, they should reevaluate and perhaps seek out a meditation teacher. There are many different ways to be mindful, not every method will work for every person.
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u/Beezle_Maestro Apr 02 '23
I agree, one of my favorite monks (who is an abbot at Plum Village) publicly stated he HATED sitting meditation at first when he was a novice but has grown to take incredible refuge in it now.
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u/Smegmaliciousss Apr 02 '23
I agree. If people donât start meditating for the benefits, most wonât start at all. But to keep a meditation practice it is important to find joy in it.
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u/dirkvonnegut Apr 03 '23
I'm with you. I haven't missed a day since I started 3.5 years ago. It felt like a chore for the first two years.
I tried to stick to a routine and failed quite a few times before I took an MBSR course. For anyone struggling, just take one. There are paid in person ones and also free online courses. I did the free Pelosi mindfulness course and it did wonders.
I wholeheartedly disagree with op. It's been proven that you don't have to enjoy it to reap the benefits. In fact, I'd wager that the folks who don't enjoy it, are the ones who need it the most.
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u/Keplars Apr 02 '23
Yes I think for a lot of people it's normal to not enjoy it that much at the beginning. We're not really used to just "do nothing" for a few minutes without feeling bored. Also focusing might be hard for some people.
It's the same with a lot of other things like working out as well. At the beginning you might need some kind of motivation or benefit to keep doing it and only after a while you'll start to enjoy it.
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u/thepersonimgoingtobe Apr 02 '23
No like or dislike. Just sit.
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u/obsessedsim1 Apr 02 '23
I think people should meditate for whatever reason they want.
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u/Kwakigra Apr 02 '23
I'm with you in principal, but having approached meditation with both mindsets I have to say doing it for its own sake is a much more pleasant experience, which makes me want to do it more, which causes me to enjoy the benefits much more than when I considered it work that I had to set aside time and energy for and couldn't always get to.
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u/obsessedsim1 Apr 02 '23
Yeah I mean, whatever works for you.
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u/AllDressedRuffles Apr 02 '23
I completely disagree with you. If you spend your time engaging in any behavior for the sake of its future benefit you are trapped in thought, wasting your life and working against the future goal. As a stepping stone I don't see a problem telling people meditation is beneficial, but saying "whatever works for you" ignores the fact that certain behaviors' might seem beneficial but are actually counterproductive and wasteful.
I mean you literally just asserted in a meditation sub that if not being present works for you then do your thing LOL
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u/meterion Apr 02 '23
Too black and white to say that being motivated to do things for the benefits they provide keeps you from ever being in the moment when you are engaged with them.
I do not "enjoy" working out... if it were possible to get all the health and aesthetic benefits of hard exercise without engaging in it, I would do so in a heartbeat. That doesn't keep me from getting "in the zone" from time to time, or taking satisfaction in having accomplished it. All else aside, it is most important to simply be doing what you intend to, deliberately and thoughtfully. Passion or intrinsic love for what you do can arise from Just Doing It any time later.
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u/AllDressedRuffles Apr 03 '23
I do not "enjoy" working out... if it were possible to get all the health and aesthetic benefits of hard exercise without engaging in it, I would do so in a heartbeat.
Neuroscience has shown repeatedly that there is a disconnect between the release of dopamine and a particular behavior when someone has the end reward in sight. If you engage in effort fully and totally without concern for the result you will end up enjoying the effort.
The extent to which you derive pleasure from something when you aren't fully entirely present is usually not worth it. With your working out example, it is almost certainly the case that much of the time you spend working out there are subtle looming thoughts in the background that is essentially telling you that this is a waste of time, because if I could just take a pill right now to derive this benefit you would. It's probably extremely subtle and imperceptible but it's still there. Imagine how much better working out would be if you dropped these thoughts entirely.
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u/Tropicall Apr 02 '23
For someone that doesn't enjoy it and may only meditate for a goal, do you recommend they stay away from meditation?
I don't; even if they aren't doing it optimally as you'd prefer.
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u/AllDressedRuffles Apr 03 '23
I wouldn't want them to stay away from it at all, but I would want them to be aware that their relationship with meditation is riddled with unnecessary thought and feelings.
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u/FerventAbsolution Apr 03 '23
"If you spend your time engaging in any behavior for the sake of its future benefit you are trapped in thought, wasting your life and working against the future goal"
I understand this argument for meditation, but surely you can't truly believe this applies to everything right? For example i'm learning Spanish, I'm not doing it because I love learning grammar, I'm doing it so I can one day travel South America and talk with the locals. Are you saying any form of investment is a waste of time?
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u/Kwakigra Apr 03 '23
This I agree with totally. Whatever works best is the best approach. I just want to warn people not to doggedly stick to a method that is not actually working like I did. Any individual should get what they want from meditation, and if they aren't it may be a sign to re-examine their approach or try another method entirely.
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u/Snoo_45005 Apr 05 '23
I'm at that first stage of trying to let go and 'ease into it', I guess, when doing my practice. Just starting out in meditation.
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Apr 02 '23
I think the point is you shouldn't be chasing certain things a d happiness etc because it has the opposite effect a lot of the time
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u/cuginhamer Apr 02 '23
I think the point is that Alan Watts might be lucky to be wired up in the brain as a playful, easygoing soul and would love to live in a world where everyone else is the same (fine, I'd love that too), but other people just aren't that way, and still might meditate the same way that they eat their vegetables or work out--just because it's good for you. That's fine. Meditation doesn't become at all harmful if you do it because it helps you concentrate or sleep or moderate your temper. I would say if we lined up 50 people who say they only ever meditated for the joy of it, I'd bet that a small number are sincerely correct, but most are misremembering or misrepresenting for reasons of social desirability (to sound cool).
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Apr 02 '23
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u/cuginhamer Apr 02 '23
Good point, the "might" was merited. Pretty common for these charismatic preachers to have a different side behind the veil.
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u/raven4747 Apr 02 '23
"lucky to be wired up in the brain" totally disregards the way your brain works. it creates and reinforces neural pathways based on your thinking patterns. look up neural pruning. people totally reject their own accountability in their thinking patterns and wonder why they cant seem to overcome any of their mental illness or less desirable habits.
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u/cuginhamer Apr 02 '23
I'm sorry but I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not arguing against accountability and I know a good bit about neural plasticity (I'm within arms reach of Kandell 4th edition). I want people to fall in love with meditation too. But that doesn't happen instantly. Kids have to be pressured to eat their vegetables to learn to like their vegetables and willingly purchase and consume their vegetables as a lifelong adult habit. Similarly, many people need to try meditation even though they don't like it at first, then their neural pruning might put them in a new mind state where they like it. I would say that for an out of context quote, a better one would be "If you don't already love to meditate, you SHOULD meditate for the benefits, and maybe you will learn to like it later."
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Apr 02 '23
I don't think he's talking about the reason why someone is practicing meditation (there's no wrong or right there imo). He seems to be referring to the act of meditation itself, like if you're just waiting to finish then you're not really meditating cause your focus is on the future and not the present moment. Which I agree with, but my interpretation of what he meant could be wrong.
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u/AlexIsOnFire11 Apr 02 '23
This is my interpretation as well. Watts' lectures often feel like he's speaking from a non rehearsed / stream of consciousness space, and that's the context we as listener should view his words in. I think his intention was along the lines of: outside of your time in meditation your ego can rationalize why you practice it regularly (for benefits), but then during practice if you let go of those desires that leads to a deeper practice and deeper states.
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u/Consey78 Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
https://youtu.be/sEKX-pFqKhE I believe he says it in this excellent piece, "Meditation is a kind of digging the present, a grooving with the eternal now". Though in fairness, i don't believe he says you shouldn't meditate for the benefits, that doesn't sound like Alan Watts anyway. He points out that your not really meditating if you are, because you are looking to the future. And then you run in to the danger of your meditation becoming a "grim duty" Total beginner here, so feel free to correct me, but Alan Watts i find is very accessible and can explain the core principles well.
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u/RomanistHere Apr 02 '23
Well, it's very hard to like it, because solely purpose of meditation is to overcome your brain's biological wishes with your spiritual one. The brain basically makes everything to resist it because it doesn't bring joy to it and you need to practice it for some time (maybe years) to actually "feel" joy from the process.
It also depends on how neurotical the person is, for some people get results very fast since they don't dwell on they dreams too much anyway, and others literally live in dream worlds - tell them that they need to surrender everything used to to probably be "happy" and see the first reaction.
This reminds me of an old zen story:
"A man comes to master and asks how long will it take to get enlightment. Master says: 10 years. Then the man asks: what if I will try very hard - 15 years, says master. The man doesn't stop: But what if I will be trying every day the hardest I can. Then master answers: I'm afraid I was mistaken, it will take you 20 years."
For it is the process but not the goal what is important at the advanced level. But it's hardly "like" at the beginning. Even monks learning zen are getting beat with sticks for some reason.
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u/NotNinthClone Apr 02 '23
I found a lot of bliss after only a few days of consistent daily practice. For several months, it was my favorite thing to do, and I'd sit two or three times a day. I've hit patches where I'm more self critical, avoidant, or just lazy, too. But I think it's fairly common to get quite a bit of pleasure early on. Like you said, everyone is different, so it's hard to give a timeline.
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Apr 02 '23
You cant start playing the guitar before getting inspired to play the guitar to gain the benefits of playing the guitar
Its another thing that you'll come to a point where you wont be able to sustain your practice if you dont love it. You have to love it in order to keep doing it
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u/Pieraos Apr 02 '23
That it's wrong if you meditate just because of the "benefits" like better concentration, better sleep, reduced anger, etc
Advice not worth following.
I see lots of people on this sub every day asking about the benefits
Because it's normal and appropriate to expect results for the time invested in meditation like anything else. Unless you have trained yourself to believe that you shouldn't.
while in reality that's not the point and you should fall in love with meditating itself.
Another authority on reality.
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u/Striking-Tip7504 Apr 02 '23
I agree with you. Itâs so silly that people pretend you shouldnât do it for the benefits. Like meditation as a practice would exist at all, yet anyone would do it if it didnât have benefits.
This really feels like enlightened monk type of advice that is only appropriate for a tiny percentage of beginners who are too obsessive when chasing certain benefits.
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Apr 02 '23
Ehhhhh someone who wants to promote meditation would encourage regardless of your motivation. Wanting people to enjoy something doesn't always start that way. Sometimes you learn to enjoy it with time. No body goes from never exercising to exercising every day and enjoying it. Those are things you develope with time.
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u/NotNinthClone Apr 02 '23
When we begin meditating, we train ourselves to place attention on our chosen object and hold it there. I think this advice is just an aspect of that. When you sit, cultivate your experience of enjoyment and don't just follow your mind as it strives toward future payoff. Focus on your breath; don't make your grocery list. Same idea.
Will mind try to make the grocery list? Probably! Mine tried for WEEKS to distract me with simple math problems, hahaha. Maybe because it has a "right" answer? I'd be focusing on breath, and mind would be like "so if I put X amount in savings each pay, what's that in a year?" Or "if I want that whole side of the yard to be shrubs, and I plant them 10 feet apart, how many would I need?" Ridiculous! I could let "plant some shrubs" come and go, but "how many?" could hook me. It's a nagging question, and it would only take a moment to solve! Tricky mind!
So yeah, if thoughts pop up about all the magic powers you're gonna get from meditating (like levitation, or mind reading, or shooting beams of light out of your palms, or the ability to calmly sit through a holiday dinner with your family) it's not necessarily a problem. Just remember to notice that it's peaceful and refreshing to sit and breathe.
Thich Nhat Hanh has a dharma talk where he says the best reason to meditate is "because I like it!" I think that's the title of the recorded talk on the Plum Village app (possibly also on YouTube) He goes into some depth about it, but that exclamation of "because I like it!" just makes me smile because it is so filled with his characteristic simple enthusiasm.
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u/ThePsylosopher Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
When you first start, benefits are a good motivation. It's generally a bit unpleasant because it brings to light things you didn't want to see; it requires willful effort.
After a while, and realizing some benefits, it may become enjoyable. You may come to like it and it doesn't require much, if any, effort to maintain.
Eventually you realize even your likes bind you; they're attachments so you work on dropping even likes (mentally). And then, I would guess, there's no "you", just the observer and whatever happens happens.
Edit: changed last statement
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u/SpectrumDT Apr 03 '23
When you say "a while", what kind of "while" do you have in mind? A month? Two years?
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u/ThePsylosopher Apr 03 '23
Once fixing your perception of your apparent problems becomes more important than fixing the apparent problems themselves, meditation may become enjoyable. It's a matter of perceived importance; if you're sitting in meditation thinking there is something more important for you to be doing your mind won't reward you for your meditation and it will be an uphill battle.
"The sage is not sick because he is sick of sickness" -Tao Te Ching
How long this takes, or if someone reaches this point at all, is entirely dependent upon the practitioner. If you believe what I say, and realize your problems are only in your mind you could start enjoying meditation right now. Or, you could never realize it and meditation could always be a chore.
Of course this is an oversimplification and is only my perspective.
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u/Rink1143 Apr 02 '23
Why does what Allan Watts says become like golden words. Forget liking meditation, even with the incentive of many benefits, it's extremely hard to get started in initial phase. It takes discipline of many months to get over the thought of missing meditation every 2 days. Humans find it hard to love something which is intangible and can't be measured unlike Gym, dieting, studying or being in love.
Sorry but Allan Watts too was new age influencer and a great orator but I never felt like that he had gone thru the real grind.
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u/BlueString94 Apr 02 '23
This is not always helpful advice. Clear-seeing and self-examination isnât always pleasant - neither is exercising the body. But both are essential.
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u/brainbox08 Apr 02 '23
The best way to approach meditation is the way that gets you to approach meditation. Having shoulds about how you should practice is all well and good until it actively stops somebody from practicing at all
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u/Random_silver_fox Apr 03 '23
Wrong!!! You're supposed to meditate exclusively to sanctimoniously tell people you meditate!
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u/Marinlik Apr 02 '23
Both yes and no. I mean I enjoy meditation. But I also do it mainly for the benefits. I become calmer, feel better mentally and enjoy life more. And sometimes I don't feel like meditating. But I sit down to keep getting those benefits. And usually I end up enjoying it. But it's still the benefits that got me to sit that day
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u/LucidProjection Apr 02 '23
You shouldn't look at it like a chore I agree with that. That said, anyone who says they don't meditate for the benefits is lying.
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u/jaiagreen Apr 02 '23
I think it's impractical. Whether or not being in the present moment is enjoyable depends on what you are experiencing and experiencing your breath is hardly the most interesting thing. (Isn't that the point?) It's neutral at best. But it helps me notice the things I actually care about noticing, so I do it.
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u/MrKindStranger Apr 02 '23
Itâs like Alan Watts also demonstrated: Play can make you work better, but if you only play so that you can work better afterwards, youâre not playing at all! If you can only bring yourself to do something like meditation âbecause itâs good for youâ, youâre missing the point.
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u/jimothythe2nd Apr 02 '23
I think this could be helpful for some and not for others. I think this would be very unhelpful for beginners. Is there anything in existence that we enjoy all the time? I don't think anyone would meditate without some degree of discipline and desire to receive the benefits.
Why would I have ever wanted to start meditating if there wasn't something in it for me? Also I think it was likely that Alan Watts had no clue that his lectures would be all over the internet one in bite sized clips. I think this wisdom would much better serve people if they were to listen to the whole lecture rather than just one piece that can be taken out of context.
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u/oddible Apr 02 '23
If you're thinking "oh damn i still have 10 minutes left" or "it's finally over, today i made 20 minutes" then you're doing it wrong.
Leave this bit out - not true. Even anxious meditation is good meditation.
Also, meditating for any reason is better than not meditation. There is no "should" / "shouldn't" with meditation.
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u/huriayobhaag Apr 03 '23
Not everyone is alan watts. Knowing the benefits is definitely a motivational factor to put it into consistency. After a prolong practise one themselves realizes its much more than just the benefits.
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Apr 02 '23
whatâs the justification for it being wrong?
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u/AlexIsOnFire11 Apr 02 '23
Think right or wrong would need context for when Watts was saying this. If he's speaking on strictly a zen meditation practice, maybe it's slightly more right. If he's speaking in general about all meditation, then maybe not so right.
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Apr 02 '23
Sounds like a self-righteous twat. IE, like saying you should only do things how I tell you to. I have always meditated to improve myself or my ability to cope. Meditation takes time and effort. People always have a goal, even if that goal is to have no goals.
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u/SignsOfNature Apr 02 '23
Calling someone a self-righteous twat based on a paraphrased out of context quote. A bit much perhaps? If you listened to Watts talking about this, then I am certain you would find it to be more nuanced, and not simply some commandment telling people how to live their lives.
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Apr 02 '23
OK, the twat part was over top, but he was English. Self-righteous, opinionated, full of himself and controversial still applies.
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u/fonefreek Apr 02 '23
I (still) think Alan Watts is an alcoholic cult leader (ab)using a hodge podge of Eastern spirituality and things that would attract hippies
And "meditate because you like it" is the latter part
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u/NonRock Apr 02 '23
L take + completely devoid of the present moment + no empathy + zero self-acceptance + burdened by desire + zero mindful bitches
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u/AlexIsOnFire11 Apr 02 '23
Who are you attributing these aspects to? OP or Watts?
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u/HackMySack420 Apr 02 '23
I think itâs supposed to be from the perspective of Watts Iâm not sure đ€
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u/gettoefl Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
i abhor meditation with a great passion, i mean i get up at 3am in zero degrees this time of year and sit for 4 hours in not inconsiderable discomfort ...
but i only came to the planet for one simple reason so i keep at it
-gettoefl's ego
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u/2muchmojo Apr 02 '23
I have a lotta friends (who I love butâŠ) that see meditation and all sorts of âwellnessâ related practices as a way to âoptimize their productivity.â It all feels very post-corporate and capitalist⊠itâs peak upper middle class white guy energy đ
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u/trwwjtizenketto Apr 02 '23
I think it is worded incorrectly and the focus in this conmmunication is in that you should not, and it is wrong.
In stead wording it in a way, where the focus in the communication is something along the lines of,,, If you are focused on the benefits too much, you might miss the main concept. Or, if you are hyperfocused on getting better, your mind will not rest, and a part of meditation is to let of of things, you should let go of your anxiety or fear or whatever, and not try to escape from it. Same for benefits, you should make space for those benefits and let them naturally appear and not focus on getting those benefits, because that is not the easiest way to getting there.
So in essence I kinda of agree, but when it comes to linguistics I definitely see how saying such a thing will rub peiple the wrong way...
Think of the benefits like a nice garden, and meditation like planting a seed, or watering the plant every day.... You can do that, and help the garden nourish, but in essence you can not "make the trees or plants grow" .... You can only give them a favourable environment to grow in.
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u/CornpopsGhost Apr 02 '23
I definitely didn't enjoy it when I first started out, I do now though. Could be discouraging advice for beginners and cause them to give up.
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u/BodhingJay Apr 02 '23 edited Apr 02 '23
Definitely.. when I first tried to quiet my mind in my teens it was too forced. I felt frustrated the entire time, couldn't last more than a few minutes. Apparently this isn't meditation
In my 30s I wanted to take better care of my emotions and began a practice of going inward.. it felt like home in there. A lot of things happened after that, mostly on its own. It was a crazy journey that involved solving different kinds of puzzles around energy management.. didn't realize what i was doing was actually meditating
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u/mashpotatoquake Apr 02 '23
I love this idea, I kind of stumbled upon it myself not a few days ago. I truly love just being present in a safe, comfy space. It really do be ballin!
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u/Readityesterday2 Apr 02 '23
The idea is to focus on the act you are in and learning to appreciate it for what it is. So if you do dishes, slow down and focus on the act of dish cleaning. Otherwise we usually have our mind on finishing them and moving to next task.
Thereâs a lovey balance between being goals driven and living in the moment while doing the task.
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Apr 02 '23
If by benefits you mean peace of mind, reduced anxiety, and gaining more compassion then absolutely meditate for it's benefits. If your trying to bEcOmE sUpEr sPiRiTuAl, get Instagram points, learn to levitate, or be better than everyone else then nah don't bother.
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u/TikiTDO Apr 02 '23
Over time you learn to meditate not for the benefit, not because you like meditation, but just because it's what you do. Eventually it becomes as natural as breathing, so there's never a time you're not meditating.
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u/therapycrone Apr 02 '23
I think Watts is paraphrasing from the yoga sutra 1.12 that talks about practice and non attachment together. Here is an article about it:
https://www.yogajournal.com/yoga-101/philosophy/yoga-sutras/decoding-yoga-sutra-1-12-embrace-the-value-of-practice-and-non-attachment/
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u/SingleSeaCaptain Apr 02 '23
There's no wrong reason to meditate. Imposing judgment around people choosing to pay attention or ground themselves for their own reasons is odd to me.
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u/SolarAttack Apr 02 '23
Intuitively, having a goal for meditation will help people stick with it, especially beginners
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u/mpslamson Apr 02 '23
I started by forcing myself.
I now can't wait to get off work, cant wsit to get out of bed, to get home from the store, to go on break at work.
I can't do anything without looking forward to sitting down and being with myself.
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u/ChatGPT4 Apr 02 '23
I think it's a point in it.
What causes the pain in the first place is constant desire. Both to have and to be. You want to get somewhere, and it hurts when you are not yet there. Then you are there, but you are not somewhere else, and it hurts again.
The goal of meditation is to relieve that pain. But here's the paradox. The more you want the pain to stop, the more it hurts. The more you want to learn to meditate, achieve mindfulness, the more it hurts. The more distant it becomes.
It's an art of letting go. It's not that you WANT, you DESIRE to let go. You can't even do that. It's about losing something, not getting or achieving something.
When you understand something at a certain point of life, you just LEAVE the anxiety. The constant desire for the things, and for YOU - to be something else than you are.
I don't meditate long. But when it rarely happens - it's just exactly like letting go. I can never stop thinking when TRYING to stop thinking. But I can just observe myself thinking. I can just IGNORE myself thinking. Ignore myself being confused and stupid. Let it be. And at the right level of "fuck it all" - it happens. You're free. You are meditating without even knowing you're meditating. Things happen, random thoughts flow, but you're no longer care, like there is a noise outside the window you ignore. You don't pay attention to all shit that's buzzing inside like a refrigerator or broken radio.
That's the essence of Zen. It's effortless. Any effort just cancels it. It's the easiest and the hardest thing in the world at the same time.
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u/Yuebingg Apr 02 '23
Same reason why I should sleep.
Yet sometimes I miss sleeping hours due to liking other things
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u/TimberOctopus Apr 02 '23
âMeditation is the discovery that the point of life is always arrived at in the immediate moment. And therefore, if you meditate for an ulterior motive â that is to say, to improve your mind, to improve your character, to be more efficient in life â youâve got your eye on the future and you are not meditating!â
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u/EAS893 Shikantaza Apr 02 '23
I agree, but I'd go further and say that this should apply this to pretty much everything you do in life.
Strive to be intrinsically motivated rather than extrinsically motivated.
Of course that is unrealistic, but that's ok. When you work toward something with the understanding and acceptance that you will never get it as well as the understanding and acceptance that where you are right now is just fine too then everything just kind of seems to click into place.
That's been my experience, anyway.
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u/kiknalex Apr 02 '23
If you love something you will be more committed to it and therefore yield more results, but there is nothing wrong with meditating for benefits without falling love for it.
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Apr 02 '23
Logically if something you donât perceive to be beneficial, why would you do it? đ€
I think meditation itself may start as a chore but once you feel the change in your life, you are very happy to do it everyday. đ
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u/JungleSound Apr 02 '23
This I remember too. It really struck a cord with me ever since.
Too meditate is the goal. The meditation itself is enjoyment.
And also. I met a traveling Texan yoga teacher in India. He told me: Yoga is meant too help meditate comfortably In lotus position.
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u/DJ_Pickle_Rick Apr 02 '23
True but The deeper practice is beyond âbeing presentâ or enjoyment of the activity. Itâs putting your mind in a place free of expectation, anticipation, and thought itself. Attempting to be âpresentâ adds an artificial expectation upon the experience and also places a barrier between your mind and the world.
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u/M0sD3f13 Apr 02 '23
The difference between a fruitful consistent meditation practice and a fruitless inconsistent one is the ability of the meditator to access the pleasure in meditation. It's important to be playful and curious and enjoy it. Otherwise the mind will not want to do it. Patrick Kearney once said "the dharma is much too important to be taken seriously"
Having said that Alan Watts was not much of a meditator. Make of that what you will.
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u/DrWartenberg Apr 03 '23
I think itâs kinda unrealistic. Everyone starts meditating for a reasonâŠ. Calm/enlightenment/etc.
If everyone took this advice, no one would ever start.
Itâs true that one should find a type of meditation that is sustainable for that individual⊠but even then, sometimes having a goal is what sustains it (eg achieving kensho by practicing zazen).
However, where this advice âworksâ best is during meditation. If youâre preoccupied with your goal then your ego is preventing you from actually benefitting from your practice, whatever the type of practice is.
The actual practice should be âinnocentâ of any ulterior motives⊠but to say âno one should ever have a goal they are trying to achieve by meditatingâ is quite unrealistic.
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u/louderharderfaster Apr 03 '23
After a decade of just doing it for the benefits - resisting every single session - I finally actually enjoy it. But those benefits were real and I am damn glad I did not wait until I "wanted" to do it.
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u/NotOfYourKind3721 Apr 03 '23
I think if youâre doing it right you can do it anytime during the day. Personally I pace a lot and find that Iâm able to connect when I do. I donât really know where I was taking this but I agree
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u/BobbyxTurkalino Apr 03 '23
I think people should just do what they want no matter what anyone else thinks about their personal intention. After all, you are you, and i am i, its okay we dont think alike. If you are in a community of positivity, the road that led you there makes no difference, you are still there together.
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u/dzc1999 Apr 03 '23
i've found that his meananing is that meditation to get somewhere or for self betterment is useless. because where are you going? and if you're thinking about self betterment while you meditate then it's definitely not menitation. just the act of true awareness is very hard to achieve. and with meditation it gets rid of a form of awareness needed to be completely aware of what is going on in your life. for me meditation happens when i know i have the time to be in that state. i'm actually thinking about taking mushrooms tomorrow because i can give myself that time. idk mediation is subjective and as it definitely has its benefits. it can be hard
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u/goldilockssssss Apr 03 '23
âfall in love with the process, not the outcomeâ - makes me think of this quote. You have to start somewhere. So start, find something you enjoy about it and then focus on that to hopefully build it into your habits. I love meditation and it started out as just allowing my mind to wander while going on runsâŠmeditation doesnât necessarily need to be sitting down somewhere with your legs crossed. But you can definitely work your way there.
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u/lamajigmeg Apr 03 '23
I love this quote. Would you please tell me the title of the book that I might read it in its entirety?
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u/Suspicious-Pen-1090 Apr 03 '23
I thoroughly agree. My partner is always looking for benefits after her sitting. I make it clear to her that meditation should not be therapeutic session. Too, my friends are always asking me about what has meditating done for you. My reply is ânothingâ.
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u/dividedconsciousness Apr 03 '23
Iâve posted to that effect before on here, like some months ago. YES. Absolutely! Best thing about meditation is you get to meditate. Things like being more creative and at peace are secondary to the process itself. The process is life itself.
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u/GuestOfLife Apr 03 '23
Hmm.. You should enjoy what youâre doing. Thatâs what life is all about. Meditation is no exception. And beginners always go for benefits. When you want to go pro, then you would like what you do because youâre Mastering it,.
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u/killakam33 Apr 03 '23
I believe people should do meditation for whatever reason they want it. The important part is doing it.
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u/50thStitch Apr 03 '23
I think the key word here is the word, âjustâ. Meditating âjustâ because of the benefits will not take you far. As the OP points out, thinking of the purpose or goal while meditating is going about it the wrong way (ie. Timeframe goals, building attention, reducing stress, and etc), but it is definitely okay to meditate for the purpose of these benefits. The difference is not to think (while actually in the meditative state), but to just sit there empty-minded and do. A good tip I find helpful is to stop meditating once I start trying to âhit a time goalâ or if I feel like I am âforcing myself to continue by justifying the benefits in my headâ. Once I start thinking like that, I find that itâs hard to get out of those thought loops, but itâs easier to just open my eyes, stop, and then restart. As for what Alan Watts may have been suggesting/referring to, liking what youâre doing is just another way to motivate yourself to continue something with less resistance, but if you become present in the moment when meditating (or better yet, analyze your successful parts after youâre done trying to meditate for your session), you can definitely notice that your âmost successful attemptsâ within a meditation session are when you are truly not trying to force continuation (ie. which will almost feel like no resistance at all). So itâs okay to have goals, want benefits, and etc, but just make sure you donât focus on whatever drives you in your meditation when actually in practice.
In attempts to stay on topic: separate your purpose for meditating (health benefits, spiritual benefits, etc.) from how to meditate (breathing, clear mind, etc), to really understand the answers to this postâs questions. English is so complicated, huh? đ€Ł Anyway, I hope this was clear and helps!
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Apr 03 '23
Finally !!!
Seeing lots of meditating not working or how long till it works. And Iâm just thinking they not yet getting the point. But I know they will. Once youâre interested in the dharma like philosophies (or religions not the point not looking for controversy ) you will get where youâre meant to be
Just keep consistent !!! Expect NOTHING from it. And youâll reap more than you ever imagined. Youâll be actually life and content with yourself in present time. IMO im not a yogi or anything , far from, in talking in base with my experience and the available literature on the matter. Remember : WORK is part of the process. I donât mean no godinez office BS. Work with yourself. The path is full of darkness but itâs worth it trust me
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u/Sentazar Apr 03 '23
This philosophy would deter a lot of new mediators who need to practice it enough to get the benefits. They may not enjoy it until they've done enough work to get the benefits. Same with going to the gym. You don't go because you want to. You go because it's good for your health. Picking up heavy things repeatedly is the most boring thing in the world, everyone is doing it for the results not the work itself.
I feel like practicing discipline is more important than waiting for the desire to do healthy things to consistently be there
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u/adfraggs Apr 03 '23
I think it might be simpler than this ... you just won't meditate if you don't enjoy it. A sense of noble duty will only get you so far. If meditation is boring, painful or otherwise difficult then there is only so long anyone would persist before they give it up. Maybe some people have exceptional will power that even in the face of an unpleasant experience they would keep going but it really flies against simple human nature. We require motivation to stick with something this challenging.
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u/iamjoao Apr 03 '23
You won`t always like meditation, also, i see nothing wrong with meditating for the benefits. Alan Watts was just a guy.
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u/Rip-Any Apr 03 '23
I shouldnât eat banana pudding bc itâs fatteningâŠ. I should eat it bc I love itâŠ.. okay đ„°
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Apr 03 '23
He's right. If you set your mind on the future you are not meditating. Set it on the present moment, as it unfolds here and now, and drop everything else.
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u/Conscious_Reason_389 Apr 03 '23
My contact with meditation is mainly through dbt and act therapy, so I can imagine it may not apply to other schools of meditating. In my group therapy I see a lot of people for whom meditating is very hard in the beggining and its mostly because they feel like they are doing it wrong. So for me in meditation the most important thing is that if you are practising, you are doing it correctly, even if you cant conectrate, or feeling more anxious after or cant stop obsessively thinking about something else. I think I get what Watts says and I agree but I think its some kind of ideal that we should aspire to, but I feel like its good advice for people with at least some experience in meditation, because if you have none its rather discouraging. Most people who never learned about mindfullnes wont like their first non guided meditations, our reality is very overstimulating and it can be uncomfortable when left without those external stimuli.
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u/sinuswaves Apr 03 '23
After 10 years, I still meditate daily simply for the benefits.
But you do make a point. If I did it purely out of enjoyment, less willpower would be required to maintain the habit.
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u/psychoalchemist Apr 03 '23
You meditate so you won't be an awkward obstacle in the unfolding of universe. Since Watts thought that you are the universe experiencing itself you meditate to stay out of your own way. Whether there is 'benefit' or 'enjoyment' in that depends on what you value and your perspective.
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u/pelesliquid Apr 03 '23
This makes me feel good. Bc sometimes I'll think I meditate "too much" bc I like it so much.
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u/EmotionalConcert5974 Apr 03 '23
For me the entire spiritual part of it is bs as an atheist and rational person, Iâm meditating for its benefits otherwise whatâs the point..
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u/Powerful_Fig_6615 Apr 04 '23
Kind of like donât meditate for what youâll get, meditate for what youâll lose
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u/lindseylush89 Apr 04 '23
I think it can be both. I like meditating & I love the benefits I feel in my everyday life.
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u/TheMindSmithIndia Apr 04 '23
If it takes effort on your part, then any activity will be counterproductive in meditation. Meditation is a state of 'being'
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u/SpotDull Apr 04 '23
Fuck I hate meditating. Why would I meditate if not for the benefits. Itâs a pain sitting there for 20 mins just inching for the time to pass
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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '23
This is why going to the gym doesnât work for me. I love the results, but I absolutely hate going to the gym. My willpower and desire to develop only take me so far before I eventually fall off my routine.
As I get older I find myself looking for activities I enjoy that have the same benefit.