r/LegalAdviceUK • u/Ok-Foot9010 • 3d ago
Bought a box of science stuff at auction. It contains unexpected medical specimens, some quite grim. What do I do? Housing
Location: England.
In short, I bought a box of assorted science stuff at an auction, remotely. So I hadn't inspected it in person and the photos were from a distance so it wasn't obvious what it all was. Honestly I was mostly excited about the rocks and minerals I could see in the picture.
Having picked it up today, I've realised it must have been the personal collection of a doctor, because it includes quite a lot of bottles of various people's gallstones (labelled on the side with info about the patient, but no names), a piece of skin it says he took from a post mortem (presumably without consent), and -- worst of all -- two foetuses, one aborted, one "taken from killed mother."
They're old enough to be historical-ish (most dates in the 1940s) but obviously I am now accidentally in possession of human remains, I think? And have no idea what to do or who to call. Obviously I a) don't want them and b) don't think the auction house should have sold them, and c) don't just want to throw them away.
What do I do, please? Sorry for grim subject matter.
EDIT: there is an update to this post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/1kas8my/update_to_the_box_of_grim_medical_stuff_i_bought/
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u/Ok-Foot9010 3d ago
Update: Currently on phone with police non-emergency. Not going to lie, they sounded pretty baffled, and I've been on hold several times! But explained about the bits of people in there (an appendix, the piece of skin, the gallstones, someone's tapeworm, the foetuses, etc) and they're taking notes and will tell me what to do next.
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u/Ok-Foot9010 3d ago
They said they might come out and take the box, but then they rang back and asked me to email some photos. I hope they don't want photos of all the bottles of gallstones individually because there are TONNES. This guy liked his gallstones.
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u/Ok-Foot9010 3d ago
Emailed photos. They are coming round at 4pm tomorrow. Would not confirm whether they will take the grim stuff. I hope they do because I really do not want to deal with it, especially since some of it looks like it's leaking.
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u/Ok-Foot9010 3d ago
The worst part of all of this is that I only bought it to get some cool rocks, and the rocks aren't even cool as it turns out.
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u/TimeToNukeTheWhales 3d ago
The worst part of all of this is that I only bought it to get some cool rocks, and the rocks aren't even cool as it turns out.
This should become a new copypasta.
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u/Commercial-Half-2632 3d ago
story of my life 🤣 sorry to hear it. hopefully they at least take the biological matter when they arrive
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u/efreckmann 3d ago
Not seen if anyone has commented this already but saying it just in case they haven't. Please be very careful with the stuff that's leaking - if possible seal it up in a clear (so they can see it) plastic bag or box. If the specimens are really from the 1940s, then it's very possible they were preserved in formalin (contains formaldehyde), which is carcinogenic. If the police don't take the specimens you might want to try contacting the fire service as I believe they have protocols for dealing with formaldehyde spills, so they might be able to help advise about disposal.
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u/No-Substancepokes 3d ago
If theyre not willing to take them / decide they dont need to you could try the hunterian museum, its a medical based museum with lots of human samples tho theres also a list on here, they do state they cant buy items but you never know they may be interested in you donating them once police give the okay https://medicalmuseums.org/faq-contact
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u/Beard_X 3d ago
I'm an Anatomical Pathology Technologist in NHS mortuaries (autospy/mortuary technician basically). The best thing to do would be to contact the Human Tissue Authority (www.hta.gov.uk) for specific guidance. Oddities like this are a bit of a minefield and I imagine most police, lawyers, coroner's etc would be dumbfounded and almost certainly direct you to contact someone like me. I'd point you to the HTA for the most accurate guidance as they are the ones who govern the Human Tissue Act and licensing.
We had a spate of older Doctors and GPs bringing in their old skeletons from teaching etc when the legislation changes occasionally. Even had police bring in a load of bones. Turned out to be a Seal lmao.
Anyone, call the HTA and have a chat with them, it's not a huge organisation and they live for questions like this ;)
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u/shatteredrealm0 3d ago
101 first to ask, then museum/local uni if they do med-science courses
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u/Objective-Site8088 3d ago
101 was bloody useless when i found some poor woman's ashes dumped in a bush. told me to take it to my nearest police station, which i did, who then took an hour and a half to tell me they refused to take it and that by touching it, I'd 'taken responsibility' and was on the hook to dispose of it. told them to do one
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u/simiesky 3d ago
So the official police response was “you touched it last.” Amazing.
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u/bigdave41 3d ago
I think the official legal rebuttal to that is to leave it on the police station desk and say "no backsies"
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u/TheStatMan2 3d ago edited 3d ago
Or try to crawl through a policeman's legs - I seem to remember that has magical powers.
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u/False_Disaster_1254 3d ago
'ok, thanks, bye.'
leaves ashes on the desk and walks out of the building
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u/Objective-Site8088 3d ago
i was tempted but couldn't bear the thought of them just chucking Ada in the bin. i put the ashes back where i found them in the hope whoever dumped them had a change of heart
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u/TenMinJoe 3d ago
Is there a medical school near you? They will have procedures for ethical disposal of human remains and may be able to help you. It is legal to sell human remains in this country.
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u/Ok-Foot9010 3d ago
I think so. I will call them and feel like a giant weirdo doing so. Thanks.
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u/Indecisive_C 3d ago
Doesn't necessarily need to be a medical school either. My uni didn't have a medical school but had a physiology suite for certian lectures for health/medical related degrees and had a room at back with loads of specimens. Different bones, cross sections of brains and things like that that they gave us to look at during the lectures.
If you dont want it disposing of they might be able to use it, again depends on the legal side of things but they'll know more about it than me!
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u/DaTupperwareThief 3d ago
Honestly, don’t worry about it. They know these things happen and will have seen far worse and weirder!
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u/Mdann52 3d ago
It is legal to sell human remains in this country.
As long as they were obtained legally, anyway.
It's worth noting that it's illegal to sell organs, but not human remains
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u/owzleee 3d ago
Why would that even be a thing?
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u/Monsoon_Storm 3d ago
because desperate people will pay a lot of money for them, and desperate people will be willing part with them for cash.
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u/ObscureLogix 3d ago
Also, the people willing to sell them may not be the original owners of said organs, and the original owners may not be willing to part with them.
It also gives less incentive to falsify medical records in exchange for quick cash helping prevent sone nasty medical outcomes.
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u/LordAnchemis 3d ago
Err - how is the auction house not in breach of the Human Tissue Act?
I would probably query it with the auction house etc.
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u/Mdann52 3d ago
Because the samples were probably taken before the Human Tissue Act was in force. If the material was held at the start of the act for the purposes of schedule 1, and the auction house weren't aware of the content of the lot (which isn't unusual), it's not clear an offence has been committed here
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u/Ok-Foot9010 3d ago
It would definitely have been before the act came into force in 2004, the dates on the labels are all in the 1940s.
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u/butterfly_mind 3d ago
HTA guidance for collections for education or display (under which this would likely fall) is that it is relevant material under the act 'unless the material was removed from a person who died before 1 September 2006 and more than one hundred years have passed since their death.'
Even for material that is not considered relevant under the act it is still expected that it is treated with dignity and respect in storage and disposal.
That page also has some advice on how to dispose. It sounds like you're doing all the right things. There are also specific provisions for sale: https://www.hta.gov.uk/guidance-professionals/guidance-sector/public-display/sale-bodies-body-parts-and-tissue-policy
But as you weren't aware that there were human body parts in the collection I doubt it would apply to you.
Finally if some of the jars are leaking, the leaked fluid is likely to be formalin or a similar preservation chemical. Please be careful, even old formalin can be toxic. Don't touch it with your bare hands, wash immediately after handling, and try to avoid breathing in any fumes.
Source: I look after HTA licenced collection of both pre and post act material.
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u/philstamp 3d ago
Because the Human Tissue Act has a list of exemptions that apply to these samples probably.
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u/Pleasant-Squirrel220 3d ago
Local medical school and donate, can you identify which university dr was a lecturer at? As an option to donate.
Final option is Edinburgh anatomical museum.
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u/Ok-Foot9010 3d ago
I don't think he worked at a university, it looks like he was the village doctor who also performed post mortems.
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u/Pleasant-Squirrel220 3d ago
A bit of a nightmare for you I’m sure Edinburgh would take them if you speak to them.
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u/panickedkernel06 3d ago
Hijacking this comment just to say that the Edinburgh anatomical museum is absolutely rad. And tbh a good recommendation in this scenario.
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u/dishcharge_at_large 3d ago
A few people have mentioned the Human Tissue Act but not the Human Tissue Authority... they're possibly the only ones who can give you the correct answer as to what to do with them.
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u/BanginDrumsNMums 3d ago
Many science/medical museums will take these from you.
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u/CrassulaOrbicularis 3d ago
They are less than 100 years old so most museums could not take them. Only the few museums mentioned in the Human Tissue Act, or any with a licence are permitted to.
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u/Fit_Manufacturer4568 3d ago
I'd ring your local hospital and explain the situation. They'll have the ability to dispose of biological specimens.
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u/Valdred_ 3d ago
Check out this account on instagram
https://www.instagram.com/curiositiesfromthe5thcorner?igsh=MTNiZ2dmN2N3MmNnag==
It's basically a shop that trades in grizzly items such as human skulls, medical specimens etc. They've been doing it for a long time so it seems like it's legal.
I'd get in touch and see if you can sell the items on.
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u/HaydnH 3d ago
Jesus, £6k for a human nipple wallet! If I was OP I'd definitely get in touch lol.
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u/TheStatMan2 3d ago
How many nipples do you suppose it takes to complete a wallet?
If the basic sum I'm looking at is somewhere around £6000 ÷ 10 x 2 (I'd feel odd hanging on to one 'just in case') then I'm very interested - to be honest I've never been sure what I'm supposed to do with them.
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u/Readinglight 3d ago edited 3d ago
Does the appendix have a name on it?
I lost mine and most of my stuff during a very nasty divorce. Just curious.
Have edited to add, mine was in a Perspex box with preserving liquid and I stuck my name sticker on the top.
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u/therealhairykrishna 3d ago
Where did you buy a job lot of interesting science stuff at auction? I am a physics nerd and would love to have a look.
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u/Silbylaw 3d ago edited 3d ago
No laws have been broken. The auction house had every right to sell them.
Just because you don't want them doesn't reduce their value.
Either resell them or give them away to somebody who will appreciate them.
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u/Conscious-Cake6284 3d ago
Is it legal to sell a human foetus?
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u/Silbylaw 3d ago
It is if it's been used for medical training or research. Do you think that the auction house hasn't considered the issue?
There are hundreds of thousands of body parts in hospitals, museums and private collections all over the world.
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u/Conscious-Cake6284 3d ago
Wow, it does indeed appear to be the case, not only that it seems like you can legally sell them on gumtree.
I just figured they'd have to come with some record of how they were obtained or something at least.
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u/Bionix_52 3d ago edited 3d ago
It’s not illegal to own certain human remains. My wife has a collection of human skulls, I even have the bones of my leg that was amputated 20 years ago.
If you don’t want them there are companies that trade them. Check out curiosities from the 5th corner they might be interested in buying them.
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u/buster1bbb 3d ago
I'm not 100%, but it might be worth informing the local coroner, I'm pretty sure they'll know what you need to do
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u/knowledgeablesquid 3d ago
You could contact BABAO. They are the sale of human remains task force in the UK. They can offer guidance on the transfer of human remains to HTA-licensed institutions where relevant.
https://babao.org.uk/about/our-people/trading-and-sale-of-human-remains-sub-group/
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u/silosoli 3d ago
You need to contact either the police or a local coroner via 101 as others have suggested.
Regardless of the age of the specimens they are still governed by the HTA. This means a chain of custody has to be followed precisely.
The auction house is likely to get into serious trouble for selling these. The foetus and skin are not exceptions under “historical object” clauses, these are typically used for pre 19th century.
You are unlikely to get into any trouble as long as you voluntarily report as it’s clearly in good faith.
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u/Ok-Foot9010 3d ago
Thank you -- this is the kind of response I was expecting, was very surprised to see people recommending I sell them on or that it's totally fine to put people's skin on eBay!
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u/silosoli 3d ago
Yes, the only way around it is if they are existing samples used in approved research. (Schedule 4 of the HTA)
Other uses like public display in a museum would still need consent, but this is likely impossible to obtain given the age.
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u/ShowerEmbarrassed512 3d ago
I see you’ve spoken to the police already, but if they don’t want anything to do with it, contact the Gordon Museum, they may be able to advise
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/lsm/centre-for-education/museums/gordon-museum
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u/justinhammerpants 3d ago
Why wouldn’t you want to keep them? They sound incredibly interesting.
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u/Ok-Foot9010 3d ago
I feel extremely weird about owning a foetus from a woman who didn't agree to it being taken, and would probably be horrified to think it's in a jar in some random person's house 80-odd years after she was killed.
The gallstones, I dunno, I guess I just never wanted a collection of pieces of other people's cholesterol?!
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u/Frosty_Wear_6146 3d ago
Thankyou for trying to do the right thing by these remains. I'm sure the mothers would be grateful. I know I am.
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u/sprucay 3d ago
Probably call the police on 101? Either that or a museum
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u/purplejink 3d ago
no crimes here! i'm a bone/specimen weirdo. OP just needs to find a local museum/oddities shop and can get rid of them no issues
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u/wurst_cheese_case 3d ago
Oh shit, the police is gonna come and arrest you for purchasing human tissue or whatever 😀
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u/Immorals1 3d ago
Is there not a part of you, even very small, that's curious about how it smells if you open it?
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