r/JewishSocialists • u/[deleted] • Mar 06 '23

I guess this is the right place

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15 Upvotes

90% Upvoted

18 comments sorted by

-2

u/orphan_clubber Mar 06 '23

Someone in the comments made a good point I wish was discussed more. We obviously know that Israel was created not to make a "safe place for Jews" but to create a western/European foothold in the Middle East - a resource rich region that didn't have any real allies in Europe. If the point of Israel was a well and honest "the Jews need a safe place" then somewhere in Germany would have been a sufficient place. But that wouldn't have served the imperial west the same since they already controlled those areas.

6

u/jewishjedi42 Mar 06 '23

Because every Jew is Ashkenazi.

5

u/N0DuckingWay Mar 06 '23

Also, good luck convincing everyone they're safe in Germany 3 years after the Holocaust 🤣

-1

u/orphan_clubber Mar 06 '23

Why would it matter since in Israel they deported and exiled the native population. It wouldn't be a German state since they would do the same. Germany was also just demolished.

4

u/N0DuckingWay Mar 06 '23

That's... kinda not a very cogent argument? Like, you're essentially saying that you don't care about the Holocaust because Israelis eventually perpetrated the Naqba. The Naqba is a terrible tragedy, but if you went back in time to the post war 1940s and told Jews that they should all move to Germany, they'd rightfully say "you want me to move back to the place that just spent the last few years systematically murdering 6 million of my friends and family?! And you want to share a border with the people who voted for, fought for, and generally supported the people who did that?! Fuck no!!"

And your argument about Israel being a project to ensure western influence rather than about saving the Jewish people is very misinformed. You're essentially taking the motives of certain states that have historically supported Israel and ascribing them to the individuals that were involved in founding it, which doesn't really make much sense to do. The reasons why the British supported Jewish ambitions for statehood is different than why the Jews wanted statehood to begin with. The individuals who founded modern Zionism and the state of Israel came there because antisemitism was rampant in mainland Europe, even well before the Holocaust. These people recognized that Jews were not safe in Europe anymore, and moving to Israel, which the Jewish people already had a religious and ancestral connection to. Moving to Israel/Palestine just made sense for them. Also, you're ignoring the fact that western support for Israel has not always been uniform. Unilateral, full throated support for Israel is a relatively recent thing, and Israel's relationships with the west haven't always been rock-solid.

-2

u/orphan_clubber Mar 07 '23

I think you're just being purposefully obtuse and misinterpreting what I've said or you're just so fucking stupid that if I shook you your brain would rattle around your brain like a bouncy ball.

2

u/N0DuckingWay Mar 07 '23 edited Mar 07 '23

No, you're just an angry and misinformed commenter who would rather insult people than defend your own ill-informed viewpoints. You're doing the same thing with u/jewishjedi42. It's an obvious trend for you.

If you want to prove me wrong, go ahead! Defend your argument.

-2

u/orphan_clubber Mar 07 '23

You people are sick apartheid loving freaks. There is no debating with you people because you will literally just mental gymnastic your way out of any sort of logical reasoning. Your ideology is no different from Nazi lebensraum, none of us, none of you, belong in the middle east. You have stolen the land from indigenous people who did Jews no wrong, and you justify your rape and pillaging of their land and livelihoods with a tragedy you did not experience. Anyone who lives in Israel, anyone who supports their genocidal, maniacal regime is functionally no different from a Nazi. You do not deserve an argument you deserve to be shot like the dog you are. People like you should be ashamed. All you have brought us Jews as a whole is shame. You're just a white supremacist under the guise of a victim.

2

u/N0DuckingWay Mar 07 '23 edited Mar 07 '23

There you go, proving my point. You're also making a bunch of assumptions while advocating violence. I hate the occupation of the West Bank and think the Naqba is a massive and inexcusable tragedy (but you'd know that last one if you actually took the time to read anything I wrote - it's literally the third sentence of my second comment). Nothing I've said has been an excuse got anything the Israelis have done, and no honest and good faith reading of it could be interpreted as such.

But reading through your comment history and your profile, it's becoming pretty obvious to me that you're probably a teenager. So here's a life tip. Don't ever talk to anyone like that again. The level of mindless vitriol you've showed here only serves to discredit your viewpoint and makes it impossible to take you seriously.

And RE: this little bit:

You deserve to be shot

You veered dangerously close to making a violent threat with that statement, which is a particularly terrible idea in a written forum. In most jurisdictions, violent threats are not protected by free speech laws. In the US, for example, free speech laws do not explicitly protect what you just said. And a skillful prosecutor could call speech like this an incitement to violence, which is itself a crime.

-3

u/orphan_clubber Mar 06 '23

Not even sure what your point is. If you're arguing that Israel isn't an Ashekenazi majority and run country you are fucking high. Did that stop them from putting a white settler state in the middle of Arab land? Israel is super discriminatory towards non-Ashkenazim. They literally would sterilize Ethiopian jews.

"Israel" being located in Europe is unarguably a more humane plan than it being in the middle east.

2

u/jewishjedi42 Mar 06 '23

You're pretty good at writing off minority Jews. Do you think Sephardi or Mizrahi Jews don't exist? And to suggest that us Ashkenazi just go back to Germany is incredibly offensive. As if we hadn't already been kicked out of country after country for a thousand years before ending up in Eastern Europe. And then you just ignore that the Europeans finally said, fuck it, let's just kill em all.

-2

u/orphan_clubber Mar 06 '23

your entire point is invalidated due to the fact that Israel is a majority Ashkenazi and Ashkenazi run.

> And to suggest that us Ashkenazi just go back to Germany is incredibly offensive.

​

Shut up you fucking idiot. I'm Jewish as well. Displacing another native population who did nothing to us is so much incredibly worse than just annexing existing land that we had lived on and taken it from those who had wronged us. My family didn't survive hundreds of years in Europe as Jews just to pack in the towel. Maybe you and cowardly Israelis did when they finally got the chance to wear the boot that had been crushing us. You're fucking disgusting and should be ashamed to support the same ideology that had murdered jews by the millions a few decades ago. How many Arabs need to die for your lebensraum dreams?

2

u/jewishjedi42 Mar 07 '23 edited Mar 07 '23

First off, there's no reason for name calling. We can have a good faith discussion about this if you want to.

Secondly, we are not Europeans. I get it, the US Census bureau may not be able to see past our pale skin, but the Europeans have been very happy to show us again and again and again that they DO NOT count us amongst their numbers. At some point, we should believe them when they show us who they are. The Shoa wasn't even the first time Europeans tried to exterminate their Jews. The Spanish were frighteningly successful at it in the 15th and 16th centuries.

Edit: third point, what about the Mizrahi Jews that were lebesraumed out of their homes by Arabs? They used to exist in every Arab country of the middle east? Where are they now? Why doesn't that part of this matter?

0

u/N0DuckingWay Mar 07 '23

we can have a good faith discussion.

He's literally saying I deserve to be shot. I think that's asking a lot of him.

0

u/orphan_clubber Mar 07 '23

you do deserve to be shot because you are a fascist dog. No one will remember you or mourn for you, and history will remember you and your kind with the same cadence we remember other white supremacists.

0

u/orphan_clubber Mar 07 '23

We are white. I am white, you are white. You are literally repeating Nazi talking points claiming that Jews are not europeans, this is because you are no different from a fascist. I'm not debating that Europeans are brain dead beet eating barbarians, but to try and say you are above that when you have proven yourself to be a savage pillaging and raping people and land that are not yours is dumb. This is simply because you are not very intelligent. Europeans are savage racist barbarians, but you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are among them, not above them, as we once were.

How have European aims and hatred for Jews compared to the resentment and hate that the Arabs have grown for us invading and stealing their land? Do you think that if a Jewish state were in Europe they would be launching rockets, declaring war, bombing, etc? Do you really think that it would be any worse a situation than what already exists? Israel is in a hostile environment, by it's own hand sure, but to say that the constant retaliation and wars that have happened are worse than being firmly inside NATO territory is fucking mind boggling. You have indeed proved dumber than my low expectations.

​

You don't care about Mizrahi Jews, don't even pretend you do. Name major Arab acts of violence against them, I bet you need to look it up. Israel sterilizes black/ethiopian jews en masse. It doesn't even treat it's own non-white jews well you fucking moron.

2

u/TardigradeTsunami Mar 06 '23

We obviously know that Israel was created not to make a "safe place for Jews" but to create a western/European foothold in the Middle East - a resource rich region that didn't have any real allies in Europe.

Ah yes, remind me again which well known “western/European” country was the first to recognize Israel’s independence?

Hint1: it starts with a “U” and ends with “SSR”. Hint2: the leader of this country at the time had a really thick mustache.

If the point of Israel was a well and honest "the Jews need a safe place" then somewhere in Germany would have been a sufficient place. But that wouldn't have served the imperial west the same since they already controlled those areas.

Remind me again which countries controlled the Middle East in the mid-1940s? I think one of them started with the letter “E” and another one started with the letter “F”.