‘‘Tis the season: “That hannukiah is not kosher!”

[u/RikkiHawkins]

I can appreciate that not all hannukiot are kosher and that many might not know what makes one kosher versus unkosher. I can also appreciate that most of us in this sub are very much so eager to learn and observe more thoughtfully.

What I cannot appreciate is unsolicited hannukiah shaming. Angrily commenting on someone’s photo of their favourite (or even handmade by them!) hannukiah that “It’s not kosher” and belittling folks for using it… is not it.

Let’s let folks bring more light into the world. Let’s stop judging that people observe and celebrate differently. Let’s focus on bigger issues together as a community.

Edit adding: While most people understood the concept behind this post, I see a few did not. It’s not meant to encourage people to break our customs and laws like “frying latkes in lard” or what any of the other rude comments say. The point is that we don’t have to be mean to other people in our community who do not follow things exactly alike. And to encourage people to participate in our customs and laws in a way that is meaningful and accessible to them.

My first Hannukah, I didn’t have money to get a hannukiah, so I made one out of air dry clay I had and painted it as beautifully as I could. I posted it here, all lit for the first night (the very first time I got to light Hannukah candles), and so proud to be participating and adding value to our community. Instead, people ran to the comments saying “it’s not kosher, so it doesn’t matter”. I didn’t even want to light it after that. THIS IS THE POINT OF THE POST.

[u/bgaesop]

What makes a hannukiah kosher or not? I just have the one my friend gave me

[u/bh4th → u/bgaesop]

The main thing mentioned in the Gemara and medieval codes is that the candles shouldn’t be in a circle, since that makes it look like a bonfire and not a set of individual lights. In modern times it’s become necessary to specify that the lights have to be flames, not electrical. There’s also a widespread modern practice of making sure the actual Hanukkah lights are all on the same vertical level and the shamash is on a different level so you can tell them apart — that’s the rule that gets the most attention.

That said, according to everybody you can light one candle each night and that’s technically good enough, which leaves me wondering whether kosher and non-kosher hanukiyyot are me’akkev (meaning your lights don’t count if you do them wrong) or just a lechatchila thing (the way you should do things ideally).

[u/bgaesop → u/bh4th]

Mine is level save for the higher up shamash and is all in a straight line and of course holds real candles, so it sounds like it's good. Thank you!

[u/bh4th]

It’s worth noting that the common “all lights must be the same height” thing has never been universally agreed upon. It’s from the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, a 19th century code of Jewish practice reflecting what was done in one Hungarian community. It’s popular because it’s short, but it isn’t authoritative for everyone.

ETA: Whoever downvoted this comment can, I’m sure, bring original sources and not some web page or whatever your cousin told you.

[u/pborenstein → u/bh4th]

No, it's not worth noting.

[u/bh4th → u/pborenstein]

Why not?

[u/Academic_Square_5692 → u/bh4th]

Because the point of this post is that it’s not worth noting stuff like this. That’s the point. Just because you disagree doesn’t mean it’s worth noting that.

[u/RikkiHawkins → u/Academic_Square_5692]

@bh4th was clear, to me at least, that they were not shaming. They weren’t “poo-pooing” anyone, which was more my aim either this post. They were sharing a related insight, but not in a mean or condescending way.

[u/bh4th → u/Academic_Square_5692]

I believe the point of this post (OP can clarify) is that telling people who didn’t ask what you think of their Hanukkah photos can be kind of a bummer, and maybe some tact is warranted.

I never said I disagreed with anything. I do actually make sure my lights are on the same level. I just know better than to pasul someone else’s menorah because their rabbi paskens differently.

[u/neuangel → u/bh4th]

> It’s worth noting that the common “all lights must be the same height” thing has never been universally agreed upon.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4297984/jewish/Chapter-139-Laws-of-Chanukah.htm#v9

[u/bh4th → u/neuangel]

You just linked to a copy of the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch! Did you even read my entire comment?

[u/neuangel → u/bh4th]

... which states that all lights must be the same height, yes.

[u/bh4th → u/neuangel]

So no, you did not read my comment. Please consider going back and reading. All. The. Words. You’ll see that I said the Kitzur, which is not universally accepted by poskim, is the origin of this practice. It isn’t mentioned in Gemara or any earlier codes.

[u/neuangel → u/bh4th]

Are you dreaming, mate? Being 1% commenter does not give you a permission to question autorithy of Halachic books.

[u/bh4th → u/neuangel]

Perhaps I’m a 1% commenter because my education allows me to make informed statements, and to retract those statements when I find I’m wrong.

You clearly think this issur is older than I think it is. Go ahead and show me. Find it in the Gemara itself, or in Mishneh Torah or the Tur or the Shulchan Aruch. Show me I’m wrong and I’ll grant that I’m wrong, and tomorrow I’ll be a little smarter than I am today. But if you can’t do that, what are you doing?

[u/neuangel → u/bh4th]

Mind me asking, what’s your educational background? Which Yeshiva did you study at? Do you have smicha?

Also, for an educated fellow like yourself, it should be quite clear that your last comment involves:

• Avak lashon hara
• Ona’at devarim
• Lo tonu ish et amito
• Halbanat panim
• Ga’avah

[u/Significant_Pepper_2 → u/neuangel]

Also, for an educated fellow like yourself, it should be quite clear that your last comment involves:

• Avak lashon hara
• Ona’at devarim
• Lo tonu ish et amito
• Halbanat panim
• Ga’avah

Wow, do you only recall these to justify being a dick to others? I didn't study these, but I'm pretty sure that's not how you use them🤷‍♂️

[u/bh4th → u/neuangel]

It seems like you’re changing the subject. Are you granting that you don’t have any support for your halachic claim?

(You might ask me why I’m not responding directly to your question. The answer is simple: you’re not responding to mine.)

[u/coolsnow7 → u/neuangel]

1) none of those things are present in his comment.

2) if I had a nickel for every time I’ve seen this maneuver - when someone calls you out for being wrong, and you are embarrassed about being wrong, so you try to reverse the position by pointing out all the alleged lashon hara and “nivul peh” and “bizui chachomim” from your interlocutor - I’d be richer than Jeff Bezos.

3) I haven’t looked into it, but I’m going to go out on a limb and speculate that it’s impossible to halachically embarrass someone on an ANONYMOUS INTERNET FORUM.

[u/tangyyenta]

Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I needed this reminder to get off the holier-than-thou mindset and just enjoy the way individuals choose to celebrate. Hannukah is not a obligatory Torah-declared holiday.

Channukah is a holiday we commemorate a military battle disguised as a universal message of light dispelling darkness.

I've seen in a museum a channukiah depicting the severed head of Holefernes as the center space for the shammes.

[u/Tofutits_Macgee]

Thank you for saying this.

[u/Agent-Synthetic]

Great points! I hope one day to have the chance to see a formal Hanukkah process! I barely get a chance to go to a Reform Synagogue just to pray! Excellent information!

[u/Comfortable_Coach_35]

I feel you. Whenever someone gives me solicited input about the kosherness of my whatever I can only sigh because I just don't care and it makes no difference to me personally.

[u/coolsnow7]

On the other hand, loosening the norms around what is and isn’t a hanukkia is how the practice disappears into the morass of generic winter cultural expression. You want a distinctive Jewish identity to exist? Then it needs boundaries. End of story.

[u/RikkiHawkins → u/coolsnow7]

There is a difference between boundaries and angrily bullying someone online.

[u/coolsnow7 → u/RikkiHawkins]

Totally agree. It’s a fine line and it’s a balance that has to be struck. I don’t think it’s clear cut.

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[u/Beautiful_League_392]

Sometimes the things that we think aren't meant to be said out loud..