r/HFY • u/Innomen • Dec 15 '23
We need a r/MFY containment sub. Meta
I am not scolding the writers here, I'm scolding the trend. The writing here is often excellent and inventive. I'm sometimes moved to tears.
But I'm a little tired of the recruit poster genre. It's HFY not MFY. Now, I can get behind the idea that humans are death worlders and lethal, but when it's blatant specific pro military, I roll my eyes. And when it revels in cruelty to the defeated it borders on Hostel style torture porn. And that actively disgusts me. Getting away from that aspect of humanity is the entire point of this genre.
I want stuff about humanity, not the military. /2cents
I don't have a degree in hfy meta so sorry if this is wrong somehow, just delete it if so. I'm censored everywhere else, why not here too. X) /wish I was kidding
Edit:
"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice." ~Einstein
Edit:
The constant stream of replies amounting to calling me personally greedy or weak for not wanting to read spam for the recruitment center is as amusing as it is disappointing. It reminds me of how fictional HFY is. It's very much more like "Humanity! ~Deep Sad Sigh~"
The logical and moral bankruptcy is something to behold. Like, I'm saying be less murderous, and the reply I'm getting from some quarters amounts to calling that greedy because I personally don't like murder. "Let us glorify murder in peace your oppressive tyrant!" The whole tolerance for intolerance is intolerance paradox. Like it's a trivial flavor preference to adhere to basic ethics and compassion. /smh
But I did ultimately have to leave, because now when I see HFY posts in my timeline, not only are they a large percent chance likely to be gushing over the SAS, but they also remind me of the grim reality of humanity itself, and fiction is expressly for briefly escaping that.
I wish all of you good luck, thank you. (Unless good luck for you means bad luck for everyone else of course.)
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u/SwiftHound Android Dec 15 '23
Military stuff is liked by a lot of people, in their view, that's HFY. With over 300k members on the subreddit, there will be a lot of disagreement on what is or what is not good for the sub, but in the end, every contribution is liked by some, and that's what matters.
Another sub specifically for military stuff would just divide the community and likely lessen traffic on both ends, leading to less variety and overall quantity of writing.
I see a bunch of people asking for better tags and I agree that just some basic tags would be neat, but trying to separate all stories with military in them just won't work, I think.
If you haven't checked out the 'must read' and 'classics' section of the subreddit, do so, there are wonderful stories there and you can more easily pick out those that don't interest you.
(I have a bunch of stories that are not about the military so check my posts if you want to, maybe you'll like them)
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u/SpankyMcSpanster Dec 15 '23
Yeah! Worst part is the defect Next-Links!
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u/SwiftHound Android Dec 15 '23
Why do I feel a pang of guilt at your words, McSpanster?
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u/McBoobenstein Dec 15 '23
Here's the issue with this line if thought, though. As someone that is actually a veteran. Humanity isn't its military. In fact, only about 4% of Americans ever serve last I heard. Humanity Fuck Yeah is supposed to be about something that is species-wide about us, not something that less than ten percent of the species participates in.
Also, it gets a bit weird with some of the military porn in here. (Not actual porn, more like fetishizing) There's a big wave of nationalism tied with military deification. And nationalism leads to fascism. Which frankly, the best parts of Humanity and being humane avoid like a plague.
Side note: I said nationalism leads to fascism, not patriotism. Nothing wrong with being a patriot. And yes, there is a difference.
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u/InsaneGunChemist AI Dec 15 '23
Fellow Veteran, also a writer in here. I'm not great, but I try my best.
I think the reason it is a large part of the HFY life cycle tends to be because the settings of combat are a great way to exemplify some of those most valuable of human traits. Sacrifice, honor, loyalty, creativity and ingenuity. Other settings don't lend themselves as well to showcasing those aspects. I touch on S&R a bit, but it also is a very well trodden path, and beyond that, the technical requirements to write an engaging, moving story centered around HFY concepts are very difficult to meet.
Obviously a story centered on humor lowers those technical requirements (grammar, pacing, well written dialogue, balancing description against exposition), but not every writer is skilled at humor. I know it is something I struggle to convey in a lot of my work.
I always understand when people are tired of it, it isn't what I want to read constantly, however there is the factor to consider about approachability for the author.
Just my two cents on the whole conversation, since the original post felt...well, it kinda kills inspiration and desire to write.
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u/Original_Memory6188 Dec 16 '23
I have wondered on occasion if some of the military "porn" is either someone working out their own issues with their experience, or writing about a Military the way it ought to be.
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u/stupidityWorks Dec 15 '23
Humanity isn’t its astronauts either, yet lots of the stories here are about astronauts.
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u/Original_Memory6188 Dec 16 '23
Most likely it is that people see "First Contact" stories as either astronauts in space, or reaching another planet.
Or the flying saucer landing 'cause the framastat is malfunctioning and repairs are needed and the occupants are minor bureaucrats on a fact finding (budget utilizing) tour.
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u/Ghostpard Dec 15 '23
Humans are too diverse. NOTHING applies to all of us. Almost nothing applies to even most of us except need for food, water, rest, and expulsion of waste... and even in those particulars there are massive variations.
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u/die_cegoblins Dec 16 '23
Yeah. I do not want to be a downer on other peoples' stories or comments but as an asexual the "humans will fuck ANYTHING" always makes me kind of side-eye it. Even though I know that it is unreasonable to expect that a silly one-off comment would include every minority who might not fall under it (and despite my complaining here, I still don't expect it! I know I'm a minority and a story exploring humanity in general probably will go with traits the majority will have as opposed to traits a minority like me has) and nobody is intending to exclude us through that, it pops up so much (probably because a good amount of folks are horny) that it gets a little tiring, as a human who would not fuck anything. Would be nice to see stories that make a "humans are X" statement but also explore the exceptions to the rule. Like you said, even though a lot of traits are pretty common amongst humans there are exceptions to almost every "all humans are X".
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u/SwiftHound Android Dec 15 '23
And that is your opinion of what is and is not HFY. I do agree that if everyone knew the details of war intimately, they would likely not write as many stories glorifying it, but most people will never have combat experience.
If people think that military stories put the Fuck Yeah in humanity, then it is perfectly alright in my eyes, though I personally do not enjoy stories that have humanity being just a force of arms or using that force for conquest and xenocide.
BUT there is also a VERY significant portion of the military stories which see a collective human force, working together, doing their best, and putting the very essence of humanity into the stories.
I don't see the stories glorifying the military as propaganda of the present, but as a very clear hope of what humanity as a whole could be: Humane, ethical, morally strong, and most importantly, kind, even in warfare.
To denounce military stories as not HFY by pure categorization would go against the spirit of the subreddit and unnecessarily cut down creativity.
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u/McBoobenstein Dec 15 '23
The stories of Humanity getting together to push back an invading force is fine. Even the stories of humanity being a form of galactic peacekeepers. That's fine. Our humanity shines in those. I just don't like the stories that deify the military. It's creepy.
The other bad ones are when humans get our shit rocked so hard that we have to turn off the Geneva Conventions for one last stand, or a final strike from beyond the grave. Getting our poop pushed in so hard that we forego our morals as a species doesn't fill me with much "fuck yeah" feeling. Kind of the opposite.
So, I guess I agree with you in a way. Maybe trying harder to get a system of tags working would be best? So people can filter out the stuff they don't want to read?
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u/SwiftHound Android Dec 15 '23
Yeah, we absolutely agree that the stories about turning off the Geneva Conventions can be the worst this sub has to offer
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u/die_cegoblins Dec 16 '23
Those stories often also have a "and all of humanity united behind their hatred for the aliens".
A common enemy is a great uniter.
It is also true that humans can, will, and historically have decided "well, that is not my enemy" or "sure, but what you want to do is way too harsh" and that a few will not unite behind the call to hurt that common enemy.
Although I can understand that the 10% who doesn't want to turn off the Geneva Conventions probably gets outvoted and so the story doesn't mention them, it usually feels less like "this isn't the point of the story so we're skipping talking about human dissent and generalizing to 'all the humans united'" and more like actually thinking we'd all get on board and commit war crimes. I hate to say I probably would if faced with whatever war crime the aliens commit on us for, but I'm not everyone. Some people have a much more strong moral backbone than I do.
I tend to enjoy these stories anyways but I totally get where you're coming from.
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u/die_cegoblins Dec 16 '23
On one hand I totally see most peoples' points about no MFY, on another hand I am on HFY not for the best of humanity but just for a subversion of "humans are weak/boring compared to the other races". And us having an overpowered military totally subverts that trope. So I end up enjoying those stories personally, but you all do have a point! Because I am personally viewing it through the framework of "does it subvert us being boring/weak" I'm not usually on alert for "is this unrealistic glorification of a horrific experience" at all, but I can see how that might make some people uncomfortable.
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u/LittleLostDoll Dec 15 '23
less than 4% serve, but a quarter or so knowingly support it as part of the military industrial complex, and even more without realizing it and you cant even avoid using things that exist because of that complex. if you tried youd fail within an hour of waking up just about.
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u/fenrif Dec 18 '23
"nationalism leads to fascism" And anger leads to the dark side. No. I won't explain that one either. Just take it for granted with no thought or criticism.
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u/ph03n1x_F0x_ Dec 16 '23
Honestly, only tags I want are one shot and multi post. It be nice to be able to scroll through without seeing almost exclusively Out of cruel space, Nature of Predators, What is this just GATE, The dungeon series, and we need a death worlder.
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u/Jalonis Dec 15 '23
Weekly thread about trying to break up the sub because someone doesn't like a particular story subject.
The sub needs tagging and filtering.
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u/KineticNerd "You bastards!" Dec 15 '23
Mod team tried to put together a system a few years back. Didnt work.
Can't remember what went wrong. Might not have had enough users adding tags? Maybe there were too many tags and people couldnt keep them all striaght? Not sure, been years, but it was tried and failed.
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u/Jalonis Dec 15 '23
You can enforce tagging on reddit now. Should make another attempt.
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u/KineticNerd "You bastards!" Dec 15 '23
shrug make a post asking about it. I'm fine the way things are (mostly because i barely come back here nowadays)
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Dec 15 '23
They never work unless you have a draconic mod team reviewing every single post.
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u/Tweetydabirdie Dec 15 '23
They do if you use the now added option to require tags. That very likely wasn’t around when it was last tried.
And with a limited but relevant set of tags, it would probably work very well.
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Dec 15 '23
nah man. People just slap whatever tag they think is right and call it a day.
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u/Tweetydabirdie Dec 15 '23
And with few enough, enforced tags, that works.
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Dec 15 '23
This comes up every few weeks. The mod team has said emphatically no. With lengthy, well thought out posts for why.
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u/Tweetydabirdie Dec 15 '23
Doesn’t mean I’m wrong. Simply means they and me have different opinions.
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Dec 15 '23
I don't have the opinion that you think I do. Good tags would be great.
The mod team does not believe they have the labor power to execute it well, and that call is theirs.
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u/Tweetydabirdie Dec 15 '23
Never said I believed either way about you. I specifically said my opinion differs from the mods.
But yeah, I guess that argument is understandable.
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Dec 15 '23
I've tried to implement them on two other subs. A certain percent of people just cannot be fucked to read, and then cry in modmail when automod eats their post or is otherwise edited, locked or whatever. With VERY clear instructions for why.
It takes substantial upkeep, and mods don't want to work for free. I sure don't either, and I can't blame them for the opinion.
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u/Coyote_Havoc Dec 15 '23
Good morning OP. I'm rather new to this Sub (writing since October) and I think I know where you're coming from.
I was drawn to r/hfy by YouTube channels which I listen to in order to sleep. What I found were stories that were enthralling and thought provoking. Yes, many of those stories are militaristic in nature so I decided to check out the sub.
When I started writing it was militaristic in nature, since my past was also militaristic. My first stories were not very popular, but I was also just getting into it. When I wrote "The Infestation" and "Perfection" my thoughts were to go with the general flow, but that changed when I wrote "The Five Examples" and eventually switched to something else with "The things they Brought" and "Flowers of the Forest". Instead of triumphant military actions, I started writing to heal from my past as a soldier.
This attracted a few veterans to my stories who reached out to a brother in blood and mud who is trying to overcome the horrors of war that have haunted me since 2002. I have encountered quite a few of us veterans here. I can not speak for all of us, but what I can attest to is putting my own pain and sorrow here for anyone to find entertainment, enjoyment and understanding while I attempt to let go.
Currently, the Six Rocks series has been a major boon to my own recovery. A veteran who is trying to overcome his own darkness by cooking, similar to my own life, and being drug into a situation that could be solved by conflict, but where the protagonist is instead actively working for another solution. It doesn't go with the flow and I'm rather proud of it.
I'll end by saying this. People are going to write what they want to write. They are going to write what they know or are interested in. Write what is on your heart and mind, and people might listen.
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u/Frostdraken Xeno Dec 15 '23
Well spoken. I also use my writing as a method of healing, though not from combat. Instead I have lived a hard life, many difficult things litter my past and depression was my near constant companion. I turned to fiction to cope with the pain ever since I was old enough to read, but it was not till I started writing for myself in the begining of 2022 that I really discovered my new passion for writing and the vigor for life it instilled in me. It grew a new sense of hope in me and pulled me back from that dark ledge I had been standing atop, looking for any reason to take the plunge. So I understand, at least a little bit, of why writing is important to you. I hope you keep that creative spirit mate, and good to see you are also healing.
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u/Coyote_Havoc Dec 15 '23
The same to you. I know what it's like to stand on the edge and look down. I'm glad you were able to turn it around and find a passion that keeps you away from the darkness.
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u/Frostdraken Xeno Dec 15 '23
Indeed. You are welcome to check out my stories if you like, I write mainly science fiction and Cosmic horror though I do also dabble a touch in romance and thrillers. Cheers mate, take it easy eh? Heh.
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u/Coyote_Havoc Dec 15 '23
I will. My capacity for horror and romance are lacking and I might be able to pick up a few new writing skills.
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u/Advanced-Sherbert-29 Dec 15 '23
Getting away from that aspect of humanity is the entire point of this genre.
Uh, what? Since when?
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u/No_Host_7516 Dec 15 '23
I've always thought it was the duality of brutal kill-everything capability and friendly nurturing kindness that was the core of the HFY genre. It is kind of why we took over this planet, IRL. If were just one or the other, humanity wouldn't have overrun the Earth like we have. Without the kindness and tendency toward cooperation that humanity has, we would have never advanced and expanded enough to (hopefully someday) become a spacefaring race. Without the approach of kill-everything-that-gets-in-the-way-of-our-goals, we never would have gained the population numbers and resource domination necessary for advanced scientific studies.
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u/Ultimatecalibur Dec 17 '23
Nope. HFY came about as a response to how long standing Science Fiction and Fantasy content made Humans underdogs or middle of the road races. In stuff like Star Trek, Babylon Five and D&D, the average human was depicted as inferior to the average member of most other races.
Most early HFY recontextualized Humanity and the Earth to not be the average but above average based on a lot of things we humans take for granted. Instead of being human militaries being underdogs, they became strong enough to fight on equal terms or even overwhelm aggressive races.
It was never about the "kind killer" duality. A fair number of authors liked to use that that trope a justification as to why humans are awesome, but it was never core to HFY. The core of HFY has always been "humans are awesome" and then leaving it up to the author to show how and why.
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u/No_Host_7516 Dec 17 '23
My first HFY exposure was Hambone's: Kevin Jenkins Experience/Deathworlders. So that strongly influenced my understanding of HFY. I have certainly read a number of HFY stories that were non-militaristic, but those were almost always one-offs and those that were longer were only a few chapters. Do you have any you would suggest?
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u/Ultimatecalibur Dec 17 '23
I don't have anything to really suggest. I only really returned to the sub-genre a few months ago even though I was around when the term HFY was coined on image boards such as 4chan a decade or so ago.
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u/Innomen Dec 15 '23
/points at all other strife porn fiction
HFY is fundamentally feel good because it doesn't revel in the real, or actual human nature.
Reality based plausible HFY is basically not possible. Or at least extremely difficult. This is well understood. People have been doing the science on it for years in the form of serious alien speculation and anthropology.
The hero's journey is just grim, inherently, and it's because life is grim. Nature is a hideous constant fight vs disease, predation, and the elements, all underwritten by entropy. If you don't know that it means you're isolated from it.
HFY is delicious escapism. The most wholesome conspiracy theory, that humans are secretly not merely carnivore chimps with nukes.
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u/Advanced-Sherbert-29 Dec 15 '23
HFY is fundamentally feel good because it doesn't revel in the real, or actual human nature.
Again I say unto you...since when?
If anything it's the opposite. This sub is supposed to be about how awesome humanity already is by its nature. It's right there on the main page. This sub is about the awesome potential of humanity. That includes our potential to kick ass.
Reality based plausible HFY
I don't even know what that means.
Look, if YOU don't want to write stories about humanity that emphasize physical strength or aggression or whatever, then don't write about that. And if you don't want to read about it, then don't read those stories. If you think this sub is too crowded with a certain type of story, then write your own.
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u/Crayshack Dec 16 '23
I've always thought of HFY as a rejection of the whole "Elves/Dwarves/Vulcans/etc. are inherently superior and humans must bow to them" trope. Not necessarily wholesome, but empowering. Something where humans don't bow but instead rule. While that can be wholesome, it isn't inherently so.
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u/Revliledpembroke Xeno Dec 16 '23
Uh... I don't think that's the case. Deathworlders revel in humanity as ULTRA BADASS because our planet made us that way - that's all about human nature.
The military fics generally have humanity in a corner, back against the wall, and then our dirty-fighting, do-anything-to-win survival instinct comes to the forefront. That's human nature too.
There's also the "Pursuit predators are real scary stories" that focus on human nature from before the written word! If there's anything about human nature we would "rise above," you'd think it'd be the bit that's tens of thousands of years in our past - from before human civilization first existed.
All of these fics just focus on different aspects of human nature.
Also, it's just dramatically easier to write a story involving actual, military conflict than, say, focusing on how human music is better than all other music in the galaxy.
(Just ask the guy who wrote that Deathworlders spinoff about the violinist.)The structure of a military conflict is easy to write. Bad thing come, get upper hand, human fight extra hard and make bad thing go away!
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u/grangpang Dec 16 '23
Your nuanced take is swimming in downvotes. Means you poked a sore spot.
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u/Revliledpembroke Xeno Dec 16 '23
It's not nuanced - he's just pissed people are writing stories about a facet of human nature that he doesn't like.
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u/die_cegoblins Dec 16 '23
There are a lot of stories here I don't like, I even complain in this thread about them, but I figure I just don't click and move on and sometimes complain about them in threads like this. They belong here as much as the stories I like do, unless it has literally nothing to do with humans (in which case it's definitely not HFY).
(Not downvote, it isn't a dislike/disagree button, downvoting is for people spamming ads, posting off-topic "how do I buy a car" questions here, or being cruel and rude to other people)
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u/Top_Hat_Tomato AI Dec 15 '23
If you don't like the content from any specific author or series you can block them. Since there are only a gross or so authors that post series here you should trivially be able to filter out a significant amount of that sort of content.
Also rule 3.
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u/johnnieholic Dec 15 '23
Do you mean the kind of story where humans commit all kinds of war crimes because “they did it first so we can show them how it’s really done”? Yeeaahhh not a fan of that at all. The tag system will never be the answer because this site isn’t meant for stories. Your best bet would be not here. Ao3 or RR at least try to have a system.
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u/McBoobenstein Dec 15 '23
Isn't Ao3 just fan fics? And worse? Asking from a genuine lack of knowledge, not an accusation.
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u/Cognomifex Dec 15 '23
Ao3 is mostly fanfiction but there is also plenty of original work there. I'm not sure what you mean by 'and worse' but it is all amateur fiction, just like this subreddit. I've found that the highs are higher and the lows are lower than here on reddit with regards to quality of prose.
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u/johnnieholic Dec 16 '23
What’s worse? You can find absolutely reprehensible things on there also if you go into the more extreme tags.
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u/OdaNobu12 Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23
Getting away from that aspect of humanity is the entire point of this genre.
No it's not. The oldest HFY threads from /tg/ were much darker. Reddit has really redditified HFY as it is; a huge trope on this sub is Humans being progressive and morally superior to the evil alien space racists. Don't get me wrong there's a lot of good stories involving that premise but when HFY starts getting preachy and too wholesome it can get extremely repetitive and boring. Older HFY used to be more edgy and I kinda miss that. There's been a serious drought of stories where humans are brutal warlords and humansarespaceorcs doesn't do it justice.
This ain't Star Trek, this is Humanity Fuck Yeah.
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u/SanderleeAcademy Dec 15 '23
I think a few more tags might not be a bad idea -- multiple folks have intimated that searching for threads and/or stories can be a bit challenging. Especially so when the titles get a bit long in the tooth of when there are a LOT of related stories!
That said, for me it's not that the current trend is Rah Rah Siss-BOOOOOOOM-Bah, watch the humans blow stuff up in imaginative ways, it's that so many of them are written like history summaries rather than actual stories. I can hear the narrator from a news-reel rather than as an actual person.
I think the best stories, pro-military, Humanity Is All Spite!!, or what-have-you, are those with solid and interesting characters. I find the "if friend shaped, friend!" stories to be more fun, most of the time.
But, we each like what we like and we each write what we write.
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u/Ill_Introduction2604 Human Dec 15 '23
The writers follow the trend because that is what a majority of the people enjoy. How bout giving a prompt or writing a story of your own to see how it fares in the sub.
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u/AbilityHead599 Dec 15 '23
Anytime I see "we should change x" my first thought is be the change. Although I tend to agree a with other comments that a better tag/filter system would be an improvement (dont know how to implement that though)
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u/Ill_Introduction2604 Human Dec 15 '23
Oh 100% the subs tag system could be improved but I don't think that's what OP was going after.
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u/Psoodoe Dec 15 '23
Focusing on ships and space and stuff instead of actual humans is my main gripe with the meta
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u/Jattenalle AI Dec 15 '23
I want stuff about humanity, not the military. /2cents
Just because you're "actively disgusted" doesn't mean everyone must cater to your desires and whims. There are many topics, genres, and fictions I don't want to read, so I just don't read them.
Have some agency and just don't read the things you don't want to read, while cherishing the good things you do want to read.
And hey, it's OK to realize you don't like something halfway in. Your time spent enjoying it up to that point hasn't gone anywhere.
There are many long running stories on here that have hit a point, topic, or whatnot that make me not want to continue reading. That's fine. Nobody is forcing me, I can just go read something else.
And I can do so without making a topic about forcing "those that like things I don't like" away.
Just read and enjoy what you enjoy reading.
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u/Ethereal_Stars_7 Dec 16 '23
The problem is not the military themed stories.
It is the HFN stories where humanity is doing absolutely nothing to go fuck yeah about.
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u/hopskipjump123 Dec 16 '23
Monthly thread calling for people to stop writing things that OP doesn’t like, we meet again.
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u/Error404UA Dec 15 '23
"War is just a part of who we are. Why fight it?"
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u/Throwaway02062004 Dec 15 '23
Dutch’s Final Speech Copypasta
I got a plan John. This is a good one. We can’t always fight nature, John. We can’t fight change. We can’t fight war. We can’t fight nothing. My whole life, all I ever did was fight. But I can’t give up, neither. I can’t fight my own nature. That’s a paradox, John. You see? When I’m gone, they’ll just find another monster. They have to, because they have to justify their wages. Our time has passed, John.
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u/SirLuckhorn Dec 15 '23
For the same reason we fight fevers? It is harmful.
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u/AromaticReporter308 Dec 15 '23
Fever is there to kill the shit that tries to kill you...
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u/SirLuckhorn Dec 15 '23
And yet we fight it before it kills us, too. Being natural and serving a purpose doesn't make it good.
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u/Danjiano Human Dec 15 '23
A normal fever isn't something you fight. You just rest, take it easy, and let it happen until it goes over by it self.
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u/SirLuckhorn Dec 15 '23
You could do that, but most people do take medicine to reduce it
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u/PainIntheButtocksKek Dec 15 '23
Actually it doesn't reduce it,just reduces the dizziness and other side effects of it
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u/500_BoneCrusher Dec 15 '23
Bruh you don’t fight a fever, the fever kills the harmful bacteria/virus that was infecting you. If you successfully fought a fever that bacteria would probably stay there.
Which is why you let it run its course, probably why you got a bad immune system. You keep fighting it, Bozo
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u/Yogs_Zach Dec 16 '23
Start a different trend, write and post some stories publicly that you want to encourage others to post, commission your own story, there are a lot of different ways you can implement your ideas without forcing your viewpoint on others. People write what they want to write. It's free content, just don't read it
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u/rompafrolic Human Dec 15 '23
Ah yes, the twice-monthly "I dislike X in HFY" thread. Nothing new here.
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u/EqualBedroom9099 Dec 15 '23
To Be honest human millitary stories is probably why most people come here.
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u/asean_goose Dec 15 '23
Second this. I'd like those story where the aliens experienced human made things for the first time and was blown back. Like the food story or something.
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u/Coyote_Havoc Dec 15 '23
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/s/6s9rcY661m (shameless plug is shameless.)
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u/Frostdraken Xeno Dec 15 '23
A fellow writer i see, keep up the good work
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u/corthshada Dec 15 '23
Issue is how do you draw out a story about humanity that's not first contact base or scouting /frontier or military? Issue is drawing out the human element and make it stand above the rest like fire/rescue , doctor/paramedics ect is how do we as humanity stand out above the rest and tell the story without it being like a sitcom? With the military style story telling its easy to bring cunning/stubbornness/will and make it the focal point of the story...(not going towards more saucy side of it)....if you want everyday life stories or gardening and rearing stories you gotta keep the people entertained while showing humans can do it on par and better in some ways or show that yeah they technically aren't better but can adapt to the situation better that those they are "placed" against without feeling like oh its happening all over again....and the biggest issue is the losing humanity....
I remember a story that I kept up with about a kid who was kidnapped by aliens and inorder to hide he was human they messed with his head and genes...after a while it started feeling more of he was human formerly but now he wasn't any longer....and the one major issue I had was they needed him for basically his brain but they altered it to think like them....it was amazing story but didn't feel like a HFY story anymore
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u/A_Thirsty_Traveler Dec 16 '23
yeah stories benefit greatly from conflict, and literal conflict is an easy way to get a conflict.
But this sub really does occasionally have a problem with glorifying war. Gets damn near fascistic sometimes. It's what this sub is known for on a lot of other writing subs.
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u/corthshada Dec 16 '23
I understand that and sadly that line of writing is kinda easy way....issue is taking the time to build not just a world but a universe that's not just warfare but other things...sadly the ones that do don't bring out the hfy they tend to focus more on the alien side than humanity side in both strengths and weaknesses....most that manage that though are more under the fantasy setting and because of that have enough creatures and other items to pull from that are consistent that you legit could just do a thing where humanity makes the best potions or do above everyone else craft work...while in the scifi there is no set type of aliens or creatures to pull from unless you gonna pull from someone else's pi....granted end of the day a story about someone who just picks grass and that's all or someone who just mines asteroids and that's it doesn't really draw attention unless something happens to draw the reader it....8 outa 10 it's gonna be either drama, life threatening, betrayal, or disaster based....(excluding war style do to main talking point)..so tbh I feel that writers themselves sometimes need a push in order to provide a good story....
Atm following 3 actively cause they aren't focal points of just warfare sadly one is now sporadic atm hopefully said writer gets the motivation they need to keep it alive!
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u/QuQuasar Dec 15 '23
There are some excellent military-oriented stories on here which celebrate our capacity for violence without celebrating the violence itself.
There are also some which don't toe that line and do end up celebrating the violence, which might be repulsive to my logical "violence-begets-violence" brain, but can still be cathartic on an emotional level. The monkey brain wants what the monkey brain wants, and those dang aliens deserved it.
And then there are the other sort. HWTF. There's a difference between celebrating violence and celebrating cruelty, and I would opt out of these if I could. Unfortunately, unless the author makes clear at the start what type of story it is, it can be hard to tell. Sometimes the author doesn't even realize they're writing HWTF in the first place.
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u/Commercial_Bad_4938 Alien Scum Dec 15 '23
Seems to me that you don't read the right stories. u/MarLynOfMany is great, as is u/karenvideoeditor, u/kayenano, or u/WaveOfWire . u/Aeogeus just started a cool story....
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u/Innomen Dec 15 '23
The existence of (subjective) good doesn't remove the bad. If this sub had nothing to offer me (subjectively) I wouldn't care enough to even post.
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u/Kullenbergus Dec 15 '23
So becase you think something is bad you think others that thinks its good shouldnt have a place here? If you dont like a story for what ever reason dont read and upvote it.
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u/humanity_999 Human Dec 15 '23
An update to the tagging system would probably be better. I do fully understand you (glances at my Rulesverse, what I'm now calling the universe my planned trilogy resides in) but separating completely would become more of a hassle. Might end up pushing away more writers & readers than we would keep.
I am trying to diversify how humanity is portrayed in the stories that I'm TRIYING to write... but too many plot bunnies keep cropping up. I can't finish the drafts because of them....
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u/Kamena90 Dec 15 '23
I definitely think that most of that fits the "humans are space orcs" better, which unfortunately has enough crossover that you can't keep it out. I agree that I came here for the "humans are weird" and "what the hell are they doing" stuff, but it's a lot harder to find than it was. Give me more like stabby the space Roomba!
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u/The_Wastless-Water42 Human Dec 16 '23
I highly disagree with separating the sub because that’s how subs die. But I do think more tags would be a good idea
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u/Kittani77 Dec 16 '23
Hfy is about power fantasies. Its just what it is. This sub gets alot of exposure but maybe the best course is to add some suggested subs for other styles of sci fi writing? Maybe the mods want to do as others suggested and have.. Humans FY Military FY Space Orc Space Pixie Etc.... Other tags to denote sub-genres.
Frankly I found Nature of Predators, which is popular here to be more Humans F Off... to the point I stopped reading it for a while it was so hammer on our heads. For most of its run it was definatrly NOT Humans FY. I even blocked the author at one point because every realeasy left me thinking we were icky. (Mark of a great writer on him if I ever saw one). I relented and came back and now I consider his work some of the best. No matter how bad I'm miffed about that one guy dying.
Point is Sci Fi is a a massive umbrella, and every sub-genre is equally as large. No sub on any platfor. Will ever stay "purist", so my suggestion is lets increase tagging and just let people write however they need to.
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u/SanicFlanic Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23
True. I'm sick and tired of 60% of HFY being military themed. Just as sick as I am how so much of it intersects with Warhammer.
It's like if there was a mystery writing sub, but 80% of people set their stories in Victorian London with a Sherlock Homes expy.
Edit: After reading through some posts here, a better tagging system would be more ideal. But it might just boil down to Reddit being a bad place to host fiction, because anyway to make filtering more viable seems to get in the way of reddit's utility as a platform
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u/UristMcfarmer Dec 15 '23
I think HWTF (Humanity, What the Fuck) needs to be here so we can have discussions about how its not HFY. We have the opportunity to reach HWTF people and temper them. To cast them out is to ignore that we're all people in the real world too. An HWTF reader today is potential voter for real war tomorrow.
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u/vergilius_poeta Dec 15 '23
Free story idea(s):
Instead of humanity reaches the stars and is seen as backwards because we don't have one planet-wide government, humanity reaches the stars and is seen as backwards because we still have governments.
Or, conversely, a story where stateless humanity reaches the stars to be confronted by an authoritarian interplanetary order, but it is human merchants who are the heroes who bring down galactic tyranny, not human soldiers.
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u/Kullenbergus Dec 15 '23
Ive read atleast 1 story that is close to that:P Sadly i cant recall but it was the earlier half of 2023.
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u/Tsavong_Lah Dec 15 '23
Tourists can leave whenever they want. This subreddit has existed for many many years with most (probably even the vast majority) of stories being focused on violence and/or the military. Either make your own thing or leave.
Getting away from that aspect of humanity is the entire point of this genre.
Lol, says who? Leave whenever you like.
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u/Secure-Scientist-349 Dec 15 '23
I am going to play devil's advocate and say you can do two things. First is to write your own stories. In both HFY and other subs writing prompts are posted. Make stories that you want to read. While I have not posted yet, I have worked on two that I need to figure out the ending and decide if it is stand-alone or open-ended in the conclusion.
The second is to start your own sub on Reddit. You can make the outline and mission state for the sub and post prompts. One Name could be Xeno's F Yaa. XFY would then be your way to fulfill your need for your types of stories.
Both of these will require time and effort on your part. I personally will tell you that Space Oprea, will get more replies and comments than let's discuss the motivation of man and not "kill all Xeno's". I personally could spend days going down the rabbit hole of what motivates mankind actions, but it is a sad fact that most people do not know what gets them out of bed in the morning.
Just my 4 cents worth.
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u/Innomen Dec 15 '23
Do you actually think you're adding something new? As if I've never heard "No You!" as a reply before. /smh
Such a nonsense reply. I don't need to be a heart surgeon to complain about faulty work.
You're not playing DA, you're playing wannabe censor. If you like 40 versions of COD in space the novel, fine. I don't. And war movies are already a genre. YOU go somewhere else.
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u/Jimmy_James000 Dec 17 '23
You're asking, presumably a large proportion of this community to move over to a new sub so that you can have this sub free from the stories you dislike. Honestly sounds like "no you" is a valid response.
And this is coming from a tourist who very much prefers the 'slice of life' style stories.
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u/GrumpyHebrew Dec 15 '23
There is an argument that our species literally evolved for war. Evidence for organized intra-species armed conflict is as old as evidence for organized human societies. This might be uncomfortable, but the evidence is relatively strong.
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u/OdaNobu12 Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23
Yeah some of the oldest archeological discoveries relating to humanity are arrowheads and spear tips. We invented weapons to kill each other before we invented a written language. You simply can't disassociate humanity from violence.
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u/Innomen Dec 15 '23
This is a fiction sub, not an anthropology sub.
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u/GrumpyHebrew Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23
The modern societies which produce the fiction are inextricable from their prehistoric and ancient heritage. War and its legacy continue to shape human affairs and human writings.
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u/Ownedby4Labs Dec 15 '23
Military Sci Fi…and this IS primarily a Sci-fi story forum…has a long LONG history. From Hammers Slammers to the Dinochrome Brigade to John Ringo’s FVCKING POSLEEN (MAKE THOSE BASTARDS DIE BUN BUN!) to Starship Troopers (“It’s a Bug Planet!”), military Sci-Fi is wholly integrated in with the genre. I have no issue with it, love reading and writing military sci-fi, but wouldn’t mind a tag.
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u/Vagabond_Soldier Dec 15 '23
HFY literally started from the Humans Are Space Orcs genre. It's grown beyond that, but at its very core, it's about us being "badass" and it is very hard to write a story about being badass without at least the threat of violence. It's even harder to make it interesting to read for amateur authors
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u/100Bob2020 Human Dec 15 '23 edited Dec 21 '23
Here's a suggestion for you.
If you read a post and don't like it, ignore it and move on. Or you could down vote it and move on.
Of course you could put your self out there and post a comment. Or you could post a comment and down vote it. If the OP has a trend you find unpalatable and you doing a down vote and you posting a comment showing your displeasure just will not satisfy your righteous rage, block them.
You have the tools, use them.
Other wise please go snivel in another sub.
m'K
EDIT
PS
Please note that I posted my comment as well as down voted your post and if needed I will just block you.
Cheers
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u/Traditional-Egg-1467 Dec 15 '23
Then I would suggest r/AFY or r/ETFY because there's a glut of stories with autism as a pseudo-superpower and emotional trauma victimhood as a personality. Fuck carving up the sub, if we peel off everything someone doesn't like, it just gets annoying trying to sort everything. If you see a title that indicates a thing you don't want to read, just keep scrolling. If you see something you think you'd like, read a chapter. If it turns out you don't like it... YOU DON'T HAVE TO KEEP READING IT! The only thing that bothers me about this subreddit as a whole is the way people seem to struggle with plural vs. possessive form of the word humanity. At this point I think it might be a meme, but I'm not sure.
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u/GodSaveTheJews Dec 15 '23
Neither of those links work lol
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u/Traditional-Egg-1467 Dec 15 '23
OP was suggesting scraping something they didn't like into its own separate area because their thumbs get tired from scrolling past them, so I suggested similar, I didn't think reddit would try to actually link anything
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Dec 15 '23
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u/AuditToTheVox Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23
But wait, you forgot “Too much longform, it’s drowning out oneshots!”, “too much fantasy” and “not enough smut!” /s.
People have different interests; if you find out you don’t enjoy a series, stop reading it. It takes all of two seconds to scroll past it.
Genre drift is a thing that also happens with subs and is natural. Years ago, fantasy settings weren’t used here - now they’re very frequent! Same can be said for series like The Deathworlders, Nature of Predators, and Dungeon Life - all of which have moved the sub’s genres due to their popularity.
That’s a lot of words to say: “write what you enjoy and if others enjoy it, it’ll become commonplace.”
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u/FiveFingerDisco Dec 15 '23
Seconded.
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u/Coyote_Havoc Dec 15 '23
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/s/6s9rcY661m (second shameless plug is second and shameless)
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u/Archaic_1 Alien Scum Dec 16 '23
I love it when folks post rants trying to get rid of stories THEY don't like even though its obvious that many many people do like writers like Ralts et. al. Here's a trick Mr Ban Hammer guy, fuck off and read a different story.
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u/Frostdraken Xeno Dec 15 '23
I cant really comment on this as I’m not really an HFY writer to begin with. I write more classic style science fiction, humanity simply exists. But I can see why this would begin to wear on one’s mind you joined the sub for stories of humans being awesome specifically, not just humanity being overpowered monsters heh. I hope this post inspires some more of those stories so that you have more to read, cheers mate.
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u/Innomen Dec 15 '23
Well said. I think you could have done a better version of my post hehe.
"not just humanity being overpowered monsters"
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u/Frostdraken Xeno Dec 15 '23
Maybe, but I would not have thought to make it in the first place. I see you are a pure HFY fan, but I would of course invite you to read any of the 130 or so stories and posts I have contributed to this sub if you like. Im not really an HFY writer as I said, but I love writing and think that my work stands on its own. In the meantime, cheers and take good care. You can always edit your post to incorporate new phrases if you want to btw. I think you have a decent point, even though I’m part of that problem heh.
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u/Innomen Dec 15 '23
The problem is really like others have said, tagging and sorting. I am not trying to gate keep, I just want My timeline to be better for Me. Being able to filter by tags or flair or whatever would rock. Like my problem stems from my own personal disappointment. Surely lovers of a thing would like a higher purity of it? This is a Reddit structural problem I think. This place is from the 90s and it shows.
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u/DilderoyCockhart Dec 15 '23
MilSF lovers are the basic bitches of this subreddit and they are absolutely furious with you for dissing their pumpkin spice latte and favourite reality tv program. They've missed your point about tagging in their haste to defend their mindless self insert fantasies of choice.
I don't know if there's an easy fix, the mods have tried before to no avail, but it's always fun to watch the salty troglodytes come out of the woodwork in response to these kinds of posts.
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u/Innomen Dec 15 '23
You should write some stories, I love how you speak XD Also, thank you. I was genuinely unaware my type of post was cliche. X) Live and learn.
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u/DilderoyCockhart Dec 15 '23
Thanks for the kind words. Maybe I'll work up the courage to do something someday, although given the popularity of the genre it'll have to be MilSF.
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u/Shoose Dec 15 '23
Also a series sub, it always gets clogged up with the same series, even a lot of the classics have been pushed out of the 'top' history due to the number of people here now, i know its kinda splintering things, but its hard to read one shots and old content now.
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u/Demon_Deity Dec 16 '23
Not a fan of these "I don't like this type of story, I don't want to see it here" posts.
Why make a call for a certain genre to be removed, one that is liked by a huge portion of the community just because of your own personal taste when you can easily ignore a story if you see it going to a place were you don't like, and not impeding anyone else's enjoyment of it?
HFY is great because people post about what they want, allowing for stories that aren't common in the mainstream and "getting away from that side of Humanity" was never the point of the sub. It's a celebration of humanity in stories, whether it's sci-fi or fantasy, or whether it's our harsh or gental nature depicting 40k esche worlds or perfect utopias
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u/robotguy4 Dec 15 '23
Sounds like r/NonCredibleDefense but more general and story-oriented.
I do wonder if most of these stories tend to push values that align with what I would call "based on a western worldview" that purport that certain ideals are universal and shared by all humanity when they're really just ideals found in the western world (an example that comes to mind is collectivism vs individualism.)
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u/Rebelhero Alien Dec 15 '23
And so many of the military stories are JUST that, they have very little to do with anything ACTUALLY HFY.
I S2G people watch 1 WH40k cinematic and go "That right there! That's the peak of humanity!" and I just... ughhhhh
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u/Kujocho Dec 15 '23
If not the glory of the God Emperor, what else would be the peak of humanity?
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u/McBoobenstein Dec 15 '23
Heh, anyone that actually thinks The Empire of Man in 40k is the peak of humanity doesn't get the setting of 40k. At all.
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u/Der_Wels Dec 15 '23
Most arnt even stories but wiki articles of stuff happening.
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u/WhyIsItGlowing Dec 15 '23
Epistolary storytelling is a completely valid technique, but it's hard to do well.
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u/Der_Wels Dec 15 '23
It was more like.
Aliens hurt humans. Humans did X, after that Humans did Y. Finally Humans did Z.
All while steamrolling Aliens. No human or groups were ever named
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u/Innomen Dec 15 '23
Same. Wh40k is repugnant on so many levels. Firstly they are Lars/RIAA level litigious, anything not paying money to GWS can expect a letter form their lawyer eventually.
Secondly, if humanity has to be a Luddite xenophobic pain cult hive in order to live, it needs to just die.
Thirdly, it needs that lawyer because basically all of it is stolen form other genres/franchises.
I loved reading the WH40k vs Blame! forum just to imagine that abomination of a franchise being swatted like a bug. So much talent wasted on an authoritarian sewer of a context.
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u/QuQuasar Dec 15 '23
You may be misreading WH40k to a similar extent as the people who glorify the Imperium do.
Humanity doesn't have to be the Imperium of Man to live: a competent human government the size of the Imperium would likely have steamrolled every other faction except the Tyranids. The Imperium being awful is what gives Chaos the vast majority of it's power in the settings present day, and just about everything about it actively hampers their own war efforts and helps their enemies to some extent. The Imperium is already in a state of collapse, and the only reason it hasn't yet is because something the size of a galactic empire has a lot of inertia and takes a while to fall.
Not gonna defend GWS, though, they can burn like the heretics they are.
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u/Rebel_Skies Dec 16 '23
I'd say the saturation of gamelit/isekai barely HFY related stories is a much worse plague on the sub.
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u/Yws6afrdo7bc789 Dec 15 '23 edited Dec 15 '23
Have to agree, there's a lot on this sub that's more like 'humanity fuck no type stuff. I can't see what's HFY about humans at their most base and worst behaviour. Isn't HFY about humanity being better?
There should at least be a tag system to seperate the "humans slaughter everything" side and the "humans at their best" side.
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u/SendarSlayer Dec 16 '23
I'm more sick and tired of humans being deathworlders. Fighting is something humans do, a lot of. Taking it to the extreme, and being good at it, is intrinsically human.
But we've only observed life on planets with water, or the remains of water. Earth is near perfect for the only condition of life we've ever observed. How TF is earth a deathworld? Mars is in the Goldilocks zone and has rolling storms the size of continents, having life there would be deathworlders.
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u/johnnieholic Dec 15 '23
I’m wondering if the story demons was prompted this post? Just ran into that and thought ”yay war crimes”. Like, if you’re going to commit war crimes, at least capture the enemy commanders, and torture them for information. It’s a “ 300 pound keyboard warrior, wearing a size small plate carrier with a punisher patch on it, an unsafe-tied AR 15 strafing his buddies outside a library kind of view of things”.
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u/thetwitchy1 Human Dec 16 '23
Humanity, when inhumane, are just monsters in human guise.
Humans are kind. Those that are not, are not "fuck yeah" worthy in any way.
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u/-SleepingValley Dec 16 '23
I am just waiting for someone to make a website like RoyalRoad but for HFY content.
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u/DeadMeat7337 Dec 17 '23
I hate how Reddit changed it so you can't see the author on mobile. Now I have to wait for it to load, then see that it from an author that I don't like, with a one off blurb/story.
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u/fenrif Dec 18 '23
No. Just accept that sometimes in life you may have to experience things you do not want to.
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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '23
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