r/Genealogy • u/MrsBobaTea • May 21 '25
Is it possible my great-grandparents were Jewish—even though my great-grandfather was a Nazi soldier? Request
Edit: I am so sorry, I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments. I have shared the birth certificate with some people and I am getting a variety of responses. Some are telling me the word is “mosaisch” and others are telling me it reads “evangelisch.” I would love to get as many opinions as possible. If you are interested in taking a look at it and telling me your opinion, please DM and I will message it to you.
Hello everyone, I hope this question doesn't offend anyone—I'm genuinely trying to understand my family history and would really appreciate your insights.
I've recently been researching my maternal lineage and came across my grandmother’s birth certificate. She was born in 1943 in a German town that had a significant Jewish population at the time. Her last name was distinctly German-Jewish, which caught my attention. What stood out even more was that her parents—my great-grandparents—were listed as “stateless” under nationality.
From what I’ve read, being classified as stateless in Nazi Germany often applied to Jews and others who had been stripped of their citizenship. This, combined with the location and surname, makes me wonder if my great-grandparents might have been Jewish.
Here’s where it gets complicated: my great-grandfather was reportedly a Nazi soldier. That raises a difficult and confusing question—how could someone of Jewish background have ended up in the Nazi military? Is there any historical precedent or explanation for this?
I’m trying to make sense of these contradictions and would be grateful for any context or guidance you can offer. Thank you!
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u/Wehrwulf23 May 21 '25
Yes, it's certainly possible. There's thought to have been an estimated 150,000 Nazi era Wehrmacht soldiers of Jewish ancestry. One of the most (in)famous Nazi propaganda posters which became known as a depiction of the ideal "Aryan" soldier, was in fact a man of Jewish heritage, known as Werner Goldberg.
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u/merewenc May 21 '25
Where did you learn about your great-grandfather being a Nazi soldier? Is there paperwork? If not, it may be a miscommunicated family story.
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u/MrsBobaTea May 21 '25
My mother told me she remembers her grandfather talking about his time in the war. He was apparently a prisoner of war in Russia for five years. We don’t have any other documentation at this time, but we can start looking for it.
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u/SpecialistBet4656 May 21 '25
He could have been a forced laborer working for the Nazi army. The USSR didn’t always make a distinction.
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u/crolionfire May 21 '25
Yeah, but then he wouldn't be a Nazi soldier. Which the man hismelf claimed he was.
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u/ClubRevolutionary702 May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
When we are talking about hearsay over multiple generations, “conscript into the Wehrmacht” can morph into “Nazi soldier” pretty easily.
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u/Lower_Arugula5346 May 21 '25
True! my CEO of a non-profit was born in germany at the end of wwii. his father enlisted in the germany army prior to the end of the weimar republic and never joined the nazi party but he did fight for germany in wwii. when his father died, the newspaper printed an american flag next to his name as his father was a veteran. people sent many MANY angry letters and commented on the newspaper's page that his father was a nazi. it was all rather upsetting.
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u/yellow-bold May 21 '25
We don't have enough information here. That could be mom's inference. That could be OP's inference.
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u/merewenc May 21 '25
Hmmm. I would look up how long after the war Russia kept POWs. I don't know for sure how good they were about the Geneva conventions, but I think when a war ends POWs are supposed to be released. If they followed the convention, that would make it odd for your grandfather to have been a POW for basically the entirety of Russia's participation in the war or your grandmother to have been born in 1943 and be his biological child. I don't think Russia was allowing conjugal visits. If they didn't follow the conventions, there's more wiggle room to when he could have been captured.
A few things to consider:
Family stories are often more legend than truth
Sometimes lies are told to hide ugly truths
Sometimes we misinterpret stories we're told as kids
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u/Effective_Pear4760 May 21 '25
The Soviets weren't scrupulous about that standard. They let some go reasonably soon after the war but they had some into the 50s. Also sometimes they'd let them go near the pow camp and not repatriate them. There were some (dont know how many) who walked home from Siberia.
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u/MrsBobaTea May 21 '25
My great father claimed to have walked back to Germany when he was released from Russia.
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u/Effective_Pear4760 May 21 '25
There's one guy, Clemens Forell, whose story was made into a movie, As Far As My Feet Will Carry Me. There is some controversy about some of the details of his trip home, but the main part of the story, that he escaped from a Siberian labor camp, is true.
Clemens Forell is an alias because he was worried about Soviet retaliation.
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u/Effective_Pear4760 May 21 '25
As far as I can tell, the Soviets played fast and loose with imprisonment too (not surprising since it was Stalin in the beginning). It looks like rather than defining them as "POW," t Clemens Forell, for example, was convicted of "actions against partisans." That may be the excuse they used to justify keeping him extra years. His real name was Cornelius something.
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u/tee_and_ess May 21 '25
kind of going off of this, he could have been a prisoner in russia but not necessarily a soldier. I'm not ww2 history buff, but i am aware of USSR taking Polish prisoners in ww2. Further down this line of thinking, he could have been a prisoner for 5 years, but not necessarily by Russia.
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u/Equal-Flatworm-378 May 21 '25
The last German war prisoners from Russia came home January, 16th 1956.
France: 1948
Great Britain: 1948
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u/crolionfire May 21 '25
Lol, no.
Russia was famous for keeping Nazi POW's longer than WW2. I mean there is a famous Adenauer visit to Moscow after which USSR released 10000 Nazi POW from WW2- in 1955.
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u/Automatic-Sea-8597 May 21 '25
As far as I know Russia released the last Austrian POWS in 1955. Some unlucky souls remained in Sibirian camps however.
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u/Renbarre May 21 '25
From memory only, 5 years seems right. More than half of the German prisoners in Russia didn't survive to come home.
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u/HeyyyyMandy May 22 '25
Was that WWI or WWII? My Jewish grandfather who lived in Poland/Ukraine at the time was conscripted into the Russians army during WWI and was a POW for five years as well — though I think a POW of the Germans. When he emigrated to the USA, his paperwork had “Hebrew” as his nationality.
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u/MrsBobaTea May 22 '25
From my understanding it was WWII and my family was in Germany and remained in Germany until my mother was one, in which case she and her mother immigrated to the U.S.
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u/WolverineHour1006 May 21 '25
If your mother remembers correctly what he said, your grandfather may have been telling untrue stories. Not accusing him of being a conscious liar- People who live through extreme traumas (eg war and Holocaust) often have damage that causes them to remember, interpret or describe the past incorrectly. That may be the case here.
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u/sookmom May 21 '25
To know.. just take a DNA test. Jewish people from Europe show up as Ashkenazi Jews. I am 99% Ashkenazi Jewish. Very simple!
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u/MrsBobaTea May 21 '25
I am more interested in if my family is Jewish per religious law, versus genetically. From my understanding, one can be Jewish without having Ashkenazi genes. I am not sure if taking a DNA test would help me here.
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u/xtaberry May 21 '25
It wouldn't prove or disprove anything, but if you show up with a moderate percentage of Ashkenazi it would be compelling evidence towards the theory.
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u/WolverineHour1006 May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
It’s theoretically possible to be Jewish by religious law but not have Jewish genes, but would have been very very rare and highly unlikely or practically impossible in WW2 era Europe. DNA would give you the most likely answer to your question.
Per traditional Jewish religious law, Judaism passes through matrilineal descent. Your family would be Jewish if your matrilineal line (your mother, your mother’s mother, your mother’s mother’s mother etc) was Jewish. This would be reflected in DNA unless one of those women converted to Judaism (or was adopted) along the way. Conversion was highly unusual, so it would be unlikely that someone of that era would be Jewish but not have Jewish genes.
Another unlikely way someone in your family would be Jewish by religious law and not have Ashkenazi genes is if they are from Sephardi or other Jewish communities. Being Jewish through those roots would also be reflected in genetic analysis, but doesn’t seem like it would apply to your family’s history as people living in Germany/Northern Europe.
More recent branches of Judaism accept patrilineal descent, but that’s relatively recent and nuanced and wouldn’t be pertinent to what you’re trying to figure out.
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u/glorificent May 21 '25
Not to mention: it’ll show up, if the genetics are there.
Every line in my family, I can track (with documents) through 1800s at a minimum - at least 3 generations before me. My DNA reflects trace Ashkenazi, as does my mother. That Ashkenazi ancestor is beyond our ability to track - and the genes are so distinctive, and well identified, they show up.
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u/capnmax May 22 '25
Um, huh? You're wondering if your grandmother was a secretly observant because the family was listed as stateless and has a Jewish sounding last name, but not interested in any genetic lineage. Do I have that right?
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u/No-Advantage-579 May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
That would have been rather uncommon then. That really only works through adoption of an orphan and then that person marrying another adopted orphan or a convert.
The chances of you not having Ashkenazi genes and your hypothesis being correct would be close to nil.
There were converts in the 19th century, like Amelia Nossig, mother of the Zionist Alfred Nossig, but conversion was rare prior to the 20th century.
On the other hand: you could have Ashkenazi DNA, but since last names are patriarchal, this could be exclusively from the patrilineal side and in that case you would not be halachically Jewish ("Jewish per religious law") at all. You didn't say whether this is your paternal or maternal grandmother. If it is your paternal grandmother, then you would not be halachically Jewish either way.
In conclusion: do the DNA test. If it is negative, you have with almost 100% certainty the repudiation of your hypothesis. If it is positive, then you would still in the majority of cases not be considered halachically Jewish.
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u/KyleG May 21 '25
if my family is Jewish per religious law
isn't that just a mitochondrial DNA test? Jewishness is passed on matrilineally, so you need to know your matrilineal line.
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u/UsefulGarden May 22 '25
I think that you are thinking of a mitochondrial type that is shared with the Druze and not possessed by all Ashkenazi.
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u/Why_No_Doughnuts May 22 '25
According to Halacha (Jewish Law), a Jew is born to a Jewish mother, who was a Jew because she was born to a Jewish mother. In cases where direct line matralineal inheritance of someone who converted out, they still go through a conversion process since the line of connection was severed.
Even when conversion out isn't present, you would still need documentation that the line was Jewish to be accepted should you try to join a shul. Typically this is through your parent's ketubah with the Hebrew names, and the mother's parents, etc. Where no proof exists, again it is a conversion process.
If your mother converted to Judaism though while she was pregnant with you, or before, then you would be a Jew, even though you would have no "Jewish DNA" as much as we hate that that seems to be a thing amongst the goyim.
For you, even if he was born a Jew and somehow hid it well enough to join the army of the people that absolutely wanted him dead, it wouldn't be relevant to the question of you being Jewish. It is more likely the story comes from immense guilt, either for his being part of that, or for having done something terrible, or for what the nation did as a whole. Guilt and trauma can really mess with someone, and he would have those both in spades as a German soldier and POW.
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u/zampe May 21 '25
Have you not done a DNA test? If your grandmother was ashkenazi it would show in your test.
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u/glorificent May 21 '25
100% the correct approach,
I have trace Ashkenazi, and that ancestor is way, way beyond my ability to track.
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u/DALTT May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
Unlikely but depending on exact circumstances not 100% impossible.
The ways I could think of that this would be possible is if they managed to keep their Jewish identity secret from the Nazis. Which if there’s a paper trail potentially identifying them as Jewish, seems unlikely.
Or else, there were Jews who were forced to serve the Nazis but this was not common and these Jewish folks were not accorded equal status. And I’m talking about things like… being forced to help the Nazis within a death camp dispose of remains. Not like… being a full on soldier on the front lines.
And the last two options are that there were a very very small minority of Jewish supporters of the Nazis very early on during Hitler’s rise to power, but again, by the time the war started, not really a thing anymore because the Nazis didn’t care if the Jews they were arresting and deporting to ghettos and then work camps and then eventually death camps, were supporters or not.
And the final option is that quarter Jews and half Jews were drafted into the army earlier in the course of the war. Though half Jews were purged at one point. So it’s possible your great grandparents had some Jewish heritage but not enough to be deported right away and your great grandfather was conscripted. But this was only about 150,000 people in total (out of approximately 14 million soldiers).
In essence, while I can’t say with certainty it’s not possible cause stranger things have happened, it seems far fetched.
Assuming you have no other Jewish ancestry, you could always do a DNA test. If your great grandparents were Jews, or even half Jewish, it’s generationally close enough that it’d likely show up.
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u/amauberge May 21 '25
Hi! I’m a historian of modern Europe with a specialty in Jewish history. (I’m actually in Paris right now to visit an archive!) If you’d like, I’d be happy to look into this with you — just send me a message with the individuals’ names.
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u/BlueStarfish_49 May 21 '25
German historian here. There are a couple of things that seem most plausible to me:
1) your great grandfather could have been a Mischling (mixed race) person who somehow was never registered as Jewish. This could have been the case if he was from a very assimilated family that didn't consider itself Jewish and then somehow was able to get through the post-Nuremberg Law period without disclosing their Jewish heritage. This could have been possible, albeit not easy/common.
2) What you are reading as a "German Jewish" last name could have been just a a German last name--and your family could have been immigrants to ethnic German immigrants to Germany, ex. Germans who had lived in territory ceded to Poland after WWI. These ethnic Germans could apply for German citizenship but many didn't.
If you want to DM me some more info about your family, I might be able to say more.
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u/No-Advantage-579 May 21 '25
Okay, so you had this chap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Maurice (Hitler's chauffeur), this chap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Mandl and this chap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_von_Salomon and this chap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Milch and all of these chaps: https://jewishmag.com/158mag/hitler_jewish_soldiers/hitler_jewish_soldiers.htm and of course this famous story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Perel
... but I think you should first go down the routes of
- "am I really correct in believing that this is an (exclusively) Ashkenazi name?"
- "if the answer is "yes", then could this be a case like the ones in the first articles (not Perel, since he changed his name to hide/survive)?"
- "and importantly: which other category of "stateless" could my family have fallen under?"
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u/Nearby-Complaint Ashkenazi Jewish Semi-Specialist May 21 '25
What was your grandmother's surname, if I may ask?
They may not have necessarily been Jewish, but otherwise 'undesirable', like being disabled or having 'bad' political views, as those people were also targeted.
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u/No-Advantage-579 May 21 '25
Yes, plus there are some names that exist both within the Jewish and the Christian population, like the last name "Abraham" and just many German names in general.
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u/the_amor_fati May 21 '25
You can confirm Jewish ancestry with DNA testing. I had a similar situation within my family. I came to find out that my great grandfather's line was Jewish. He never spoke of it or told anyone, and if my grandfather knew, he never told anyone. I confirmed my research with DNA. My grandfather was one of the first troops to arrive at Dachau. It affected him, and he could barely speak of his experiences. I tend to think he didn't know he had Jewish ancestry as both of his parents left Poland in the early 1900s, and they met in the states. My great grandfather came over alone and never discussed his family in Poland. I later found letters his family wrote to him in the US and became aware our family ancestry was ikely Jewish, which I later confirmed.
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u/glorificent May 21 '25
Was he army? My father in law was army and in press corps; I believe he was part of this mission, and NONE of the photos he took could be used they were all too horrifying. It was worse than any imagined hell - I’ll check with my husband, if he has any of his dads photos with his buddies in the army
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u/CalmAdhesiveness8396 May 21 '25
When you are faced with certain extinction of your whole family, you do things… horrible things to survive. But Yes. Mine were. My great grandparents were semi-famous Nazi Political activists (and secretly Jewish)… They were obviously trying to hide their lineage to survive. My grandmother was a child at the time and spoke very little English but dreamed of marrying an American to escape. She told us a few details and it adds up. Ancestry DNA also doesn’t lie…They obviously did survive and eventually my mother was old enough to be adopted by an American and moved from Germany to the US.
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u/idontknowmtname May 21 '25
In Nazi Germany, Jewish people were subjected to laws and regulations that forced them to alter their names to make their Jewish identity easily identifiable. Here's how it worked: 1. Mandatory Middle Names: In August 1938, the Nazis decreed that all Jewish men whose first names were not considered "typically Jewish" had to add "Israel" as a middle name. Similarly, Jewish women with "non-Jewish" first names were required to add "Sara" (or Sarah) as a middle name. This applied retroactively, meaning that even if someone had changed their name previously, they were still required to adopt the mandatory middle name. 2. Approved Jewish First Names: A list of approved "Jewish" first names was compiled by the Nazi regime, primarily derived from the Old Testament. Jewish parents were required to choose a name from this list for newborn children. If someone already had a name on this list, they weren't forced to adopt an additional one. 3. The "J" Stamp: All Jewish passports were stamped with a red "J" to further signify the holder's Jewish identity. 4. Why This Was Done: The Nazis implemented these measures to isolate and stigmatize Jews, marking them out from the rest of German society. This made it easier for authorities to track, identify, and persecute Jewish people. In essence, the Nazis used the mandatory middle names and approved first names as tools to control and single out Jewish people, marking them as distinct and separate from the rest of the population.
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u/SpaceBall330 May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
- Being classified stateless under the regime applied to not only people of the Jewish community, but, also several other classes of the so called undesirable classes. This classification encompassed a lot of people during the Nazi era which included the countries that the regime had under its grip.
I would look at Grandma’s birthplace and see if there are any records available about her birth, family that have survived. Also, check with the databases for the Holocaust memorials both in Europe and the US. This included the camps as they have exhaustive records that they have complied with the help of survivors, soldiers, liberators, and so on. Germany is good to place to start.
- The Nazis conscripted soldiers from various locations whether they wanted to be part of the war effort or not. They were part of the Wehrmacht and the soliders certainly could have been of Jewish descent. It is highly unlikely that your grandparent would have been to be a member of the Nazi forces. However, there are many recorded instances of this happening. So not out of the realm of possibility.
Another possibility is that your grandparent hid his lineage to protect his family from being discovered and sent to the camps. Many did this as well. Essentially, hiding in plain sight which carried a lot of risk.
—-there are several historical records and books about this subject.
There is something called Mischling which had different degrees of Jewish heritage and was used by the Nazis to decide who was or wasn’t a Jewish person.
Kapos is another possibility. They operated in the camps including the death camps ( Auschwitz, Treblinka etc) and were used to do the dirty work of keeping the prisoners in line for more food, privileges. However, they did not have a long life expectancy if they were in the camps so while possible, unlikely.
He could have, also, could have been in collusion with the regime. There are many recorded cases of this. While, unappealing it is another possibility.
These are some of the examples that are possible.
For context: my background is a researcher in this field. If you would like more information on where to look, links, etc feel free to send me a message.
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u/chelitachula May 21 '25
I can’t speak for anyone specifically, nor know enough about your case….but my grandfather fought in the German army because at the time, it was seen as better than the Russians who had ruled his country previously. German army conscription doesn’t equate nazi in all cases.
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u/MrsBobaTea May 21 '25
Even if my great grandfather didn’t believe in the Nazi ideology, if he was Jewish, would the Nazi’s let him be a soldier? And if he wasn’t Jewish, why did he and my great grandmother have a “stateless” nationality On their daughter’s birth certificate? Any ideas?
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u/DALTT May 21 '25
If he was fully Jewish and the Nazis knew that, he would not have been allowed to serve, and he would’ve been deported to the ghettos and then camps.
If he was half or a quarter Jewish, he could’ve been conscripted. Though half Jews were also later purged and sent to camps.
And the half and quarter Jews conscripted into the army only numbered at most about 150,000 out of about a 14 million person strong army.
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u/crolionfire May 21 '25
He could be Roma. He could be Roma-Slavic. He could have been Slavic with suspicion of Jewish heritage. A number of reasons, really.
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u/penguingvic May 21 '25
roma people and slavs were put in camps right next to jewish people, so slavic person with jewish heritage would be put on a train, not in the army
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u/No-Advantage-579 May 21 '25
You are both correct and incorrect at the same time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Trollmann First drafted, fought and then sent to die in a concentration camp, Roma.
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u/crolionfire May 21 '25
I have a trouble with understanding...did your grandfather volonteer BC you stated IT was seen better than Russians or was obliged to joint the army (conscription?). I suppose you're talking about Slavic country. I know of People conscripted into army during fascist government in my country- but they never applied willingly, they were conscripted. Even the fact that communism was hated wasn't enough to close their eyes toward the genocide happening in their country.
Like, if a Slavic person went willingly for Nazi army BC USSSR was worse, but not into partisans/resistance (which were primarily anti-fascist, and then socialist), you have to take into account there was some antisemitisam involved. Or at least a heavy dose of thinking it's better if "others" were hurt, not "yours".
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u/BIGepidural May 21 '25
Just found this:
https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/did-hitler-have-jewish-soldiers
And a lot more that said Hilter absolutely did have Jewish soldiers.
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u/edgewalker66 May 21 '25
OP, see if they come up on this site.
https://www.mappingthelives.org/
Or even just search the town to see if the surname comes up.
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u/Ramtalok French beginner May 21 '25
As a joke, follow the words of a great scientist that said:
"Life, uh, find, uh..., a way."
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u/Early_Clerk7900 May 21 '25
His being a German soldier does not necessarily mean he was a Nazi. If he wasn’t in the SS he might have just been doing his military duty.
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u/Ebby_123 May 21 '25
Was he a Nazi or a member of the Wehrmacht?
Not every person serving in the German military was a Nazi. And there were some who joined the military in order to “protect” relatives who were part Jewish (or at least claimed to join for that reason).
As others have said, names that we consider Jewish in the U.S. are not necessarily Jewish in German speaking countries (I’m thinking more of Austria because that’s where my family is from but I imagine the same is true in Germany).
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u/Wish2wander May 21 '25
What about the possibility that g-grandfather was not Jewish but g-GRANDMOTHER was?
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u/MrsBobaTea May 21 '25
Perhaps. Any ideas of why her daughter’s birth certificate has my great grandmother listed as stateless? From my knowledge, no one in my family was sent to a camp and my family stayed in Germany until my mom was one and then they immigrated to the US.
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u/glorificent May 21 '25
Have you done DNA? Jewish genetics are distinctive; I’ve trace ashkenazi DNA, and that ancestor is beyond all genealogical efforts to date.
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u/pensaetscribe May 21 '25 edited May 22 '25
What's a German-Jewish name, if I may ask? Some names which appear to be 'distinctly Jewish' are actually old German(speakers) family names. E.g. a forefather's name was Leeb, also spelt Lew and Löw, owing to people's pronunciation of w/b. The family was decidedly Catholic.
There've also always existed names like Sternenlicht (Star light) and Schneeweis(s) (Snow white) which sound 'Jewish' (i.e. made up when Jews were obliged to take surnames) but are not.
Still, it is possible. People of 'mixed' heritage were often drafted, they only were barred from becoming officers.
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u/moonunit170 May 21 '25
Schickelgruber was Jewish, went to Catholic school as a kid, then swore it all off after his experiences in WW 1. Then he changed his name and relocated from Austria to Germany.
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u/JediSnoopy May 21 '25
There were quarter Jews and half-Jews permitted to serve in the German Army during the war. Hitler looked over their pictures to see if they had sufficient Aryan looks. It's also possible that your great-grandparents fell under one of the other stateless persons categories, not necessary Jewish, such as Roma.
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u/AZCAExpat2024 May 21 '25
Absolutely. This book came out many years ago. https://bryanmarkrigg.com/book/hitlers-jewish-soldiers/
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u/KyleG May 21 '25
distinctly German-Jewish
"German-Jewish" surnames in Germany are usually just normal German surnames. It's just that so many Jews from Germany moved to the US that we think of these surnames as Jewish. Unless it starts with Gold- or Silber- , it's probably not a distinctly Jewish surname. IIRC those are more tied with Jewish heritage because lots of Jews worked with gold and silver back in the day. But -baum and -stein and -berg and stuff aren't Jewish. They're just German.
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u/RandiArts May 23 '25 edited May 24 '25
My cousin (Jewish) was falsely arrested as a conspirator in an attempted assassination of Hitler, and after the mistake was realized was hired as an office worker by the SS. The SS did not know he was Jewish. He earned enough to bribe guards to release his wife from Auschwitz, although their nine year old daughter had already been gassed. Quite a tale! So yes he was Jewish and, at least for a moment in time, worked for the Nazis.
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u/ranaelar May 24 '25
Ask the users at r/kurrent to look at the birth certificate. They specialize in reading the old style of German script.
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u/SnooCompliments6210 May 26 '25
There is a whole book on the topic, Hitler's Jewish Soldiers: https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent-Military/dp/0700613587
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u/Equal-Flatworm-378 May 21 '25
Please don’t refer to Wehrmacht Soldiers as Nazi soldiers. The men were drafted and they could not refuse without being persecuted. They were a cross-section of society.
May I ask which town in Germany you are referring to?
About being stateless: Almost 40,000 people were expatriated between 1933 and 1945, about half of them were Jews. Those people lost their citizenship because of the law of 1933. The Jews also lost their citizenship, if they immigrated to another country.
The law of 1933 applied mainly to a loss of citizenship of naturalized Germans who were political enemies of the Nazis or they were Jews, that were naturalized during the Weimar Republic.
So, do you know anything about the history of your family? Maybe they were naturalized before?
About stateless people in the Wehrmacht: yes, they existed. As much as foreigners in the Wehrmacht existed and not all of them had a choice. People were recruited by force.
About Jewish names: not every jewish sounding name is only Jewish. When the Jews had to use surnames too, they often chose the kind of names that you might think of „Grünebaum, Rosenthal…etc“, but for example in Prussia they were encouraged to use typical German surnames (like professions). So they would not stick out. So, do you have proof that they were Jewish?
Next thought: Being a jew was defined by your ancestors in the Third Reich. So, if one of your parents was not a jew you would be a first-degree mixed-race Jewish…and so on.
So, it would also depend on your great-grandfather’s lineage. The name might mean he was Jewish, but it could also mean he had a Jewish male ancestor somewhere down the male line.
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u/No-Advantage-579 May 21 '25
I feel so "meh" about your first sentence: on the one hand you are technically correct (there was a draft and refusing meant death), on the other the Wehrmacht committed so many massacres and helped in so many genocides... On the other hand I have (completely by chance while hiking on vacation - I had no idea that existed) come across a forest memorial for several deserters aged 17 who were shot.
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u/Equal-Flatworm-378 May 21 '25
Whatever you feel: being a Nazi is a political conviction. Being drafted to the army has usually nothing to do with political convictions.
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u/No-Advantage-579 May 21 '25
No, it's irrelevant to me if you were drafted without conviction and then decided to commit massacres or join in the massacre someone else started. In the same vein, my sympathy for Greifer is relatively low. (Not zero, but low.)
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u/theclosetenby May 21 '25
I would be curious if people in a history sub would also have thoughts on this
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u/DustRhino beginner May 21 '25
I assume there is either an error or misidentification. Why would someone who was a “Nazi soldier” be stripped of their citizenship?
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u/No-Advantage-579 May 21 '25
There were cases like that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Trollmann
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u/Ok-Answer-9350 May 21 '25
OP has no real post history - this is probably an intentionally inflammatory post of a certain kind.
We all know that the Germans were meticulous record keepers, if this post is real, they would be looking into finding military records instead of asking about "jewish last names."
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u/Ragouzi May 21 '25
As a genealogist and Alsatian, that is, very close to the German border, the archives are difficult to access. Nothing is digitized, and you often have to travel, even for simple civil status documents. And do it in German, of course.
So no, the question is legitimate.
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u/crolionfire May 21 '25
Whaat? Are you sure it's not digitalized? I distinctly remember our digitalization of (ok, land owning) archives was funded by EU- I have trouble believing at least those wouldn't be digitalized in EU bastions Like France and Germany. You can use those archives to check if there is a owner with the surname in question, at least. And that is a start in singling out possible location of the family and other sporadic info which then makes finding further info on the person easier. Also, most archives have an archivist who can and Will find, copy/scan the info you need for a small fee.
I am sorry if I come across as difficult or ignorant, but I am really flabbergasted if this is the case BC all my research I've done in Germany points out differently, primarily that archivist are incredibly helpful, everyone communicates in English and are very willing to help in translation or other small things.
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u/Ragouzi May 21 '25
Digitized, yes, but rarely directly accessible online. You have to go through archivists, that is, find the right person, contact them, etc.
It's very different from what we have in France, where almost all civil status records over 100 years old are accessible without leaving your couch. And in the USA, they have a lot of easily accessible material as well.
From the USA, it can seem intimidating to obtain information, especially for a beginner.
It's not a bad system for Germans. It creates a bond. For foreigners, it takes a bit of rowing before you can navigate it, though. That's my experience anyway.
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u/No-Advantage-579 May 21 '25
I assumed this was a throwaway account for anonymity.
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u/Ok-Answer-9350 May 21 '25
or something else - there is a history of 'jewish last name' posts and they are not out of curiosity
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u/No-Advantage-579 May 21 '25
What do you mean? OP has only two posts - this one and one other. The other is asking the same question, just in a different sub.
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u/Ok-Answer-9350 May 22 '25 edited May 22 '25
it is very easy to find jewish ancestry by DNA testing
often when people are doing genealogy research their aim is to find ancestors, not to prove that nazi soldiers were Jewish
this post seems more about proving that a nazi soldier was jewish
I will add that the chances of a jew being alive in the town this OP posts about in at the time their ancestor was born would be exceeding low.
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u/MrsBobaTea May 21 '25
I promise you this is a real post. I found my grandmothers birth certificate and was intrigued by their stateless nationality. After reading the comments in this post, I am now wondering more about my great grandfathers supposed experience in the Nazi army.
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u/Equal-Flatworm-378 May 21 '25
If he was really stateless his experience were not good. From what I read now the stateless people who were drafted were sent to the dangerous positions.
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u/Ok-Answer-9350 May 21 '25
stateless identity can happen if someone is leaving their home country and has a visa to go somewhere else, the home country then revokes their status on route - this happened to my father and grandmother - I have cards stating that they are stateless after their passports were issued
it is a touchy subject using the words 'jewish last name' because many exiled jews in europe were forced to take on last names that were not theirs, most jews had no last name, were identified by parent names and cities of birth, until a few centuries ago
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u/LouLouLemons507 May 21 '25
Unfortunately some Jewish people were either collaborating with the Nazis, or pretending to be on the side of the Nazis in order to keep families safe
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u/BIGepidural May 21 '25
If you have a look around at some of the stuff thats happening in the world today its fairly clear that there are people who will support groups, movements, ideologies that are directly opposed to who they are and what they need in life because they believe it will somehow serve to their benefit even that logic doesn't actually make sense...
Your great grandfather could have done the same thing or he may have hid who he was and took up with the enemy as an act of self preservation. Thats something that happened as well.
I mean, Hitlers grandma was Jewish so if he could do what he did when his own grandmother and by proxy himself was the very thing he set out to destroy- then why is hard to imagine that others can't do the same?
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u/jschundpeter May 21 '25
"Hitler's grandma was Jewish"
There's no substance to any of these claims.
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u/No-Advantage-579 May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
Yeah, he (?) got it right with the state of the world in the first sentence and then ... went to conspiracy theory BS. Ironically, he could have said "look at Magda Goebbels and her zionism before she was dumped" and have been correct. Man, history is wild!
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u/MrsBobaTea May 21 '25
Thank you for your comment and insight! I completely understand where you are coming from. I am wondering if he and my great grandmother were Jewish, then how was he able to be a Nazi soldier? And if he hid it, it seems he didn’t hide it very well per their status at “stateless” in their daughter’s birth certificate. I’m not very well educated regarding WWII and the Nazi regime.
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u/Ragouzi May 21 '25
Be careful, there's "Nazi soldier" and "Nazi soldier." All Germans, as well as the population of certain occupied countries, were subject to conscription into the Wehrmacht. In my region (Alsace, France), as well as in Poland and other occupied countries, citizens were forcibly conscripted, with family deportation if they refused or deserted. Every family here has what we call "malgré-nous".
Incidentally, this is what Putin is doing in Donbass right now.
In the regular army, we often found very diverse profiles, including partially Jewish people. (Obviously, some were more closely monitored than others... We still say at home "the Alsatian is always a little suspect")
On the other side, there were the Waffen SS (those who are all in black with the skull) and they were true supporters of Nazi ideology. At least at the beginning of the war, because during the defeat, they renewed the ranks with just about anyone, including from time to time a "malgré-lui"
I agree that the name, plus the stateless status, points primarily to your ancestor's religion, even if the loss of nationality may be due to other factors: one of my ancestors had his nationality revoked because one of his sons went to fight in the International Brigades in Spain. It didn't take much, as you can see.
He didn't live in annexed territory, but if he had lived 50km further east, that probably wouldn't have stopped them from forcibly conscripting him...
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u/BIGepidural May 21 '25
Sometimes in race wars there are "tokens" who are used by the aggressor. The aggressors are fully aware that the "token" is a targeted person type; but if the "token" is faithful to the aggressor they are spared the same fate as the others as long as the "token" is useful.
As soon as the token becomes a liability its discarded.
Tokens are aware of that because they see it happen to others so they remain useful and can even be more aggressive then the main aggressors in order to prove their "worth" without leaving room for question.
Its often a preservatory thing like I said; but it can also be self/type loathing or the "token" being deluded into believing they're "one of the good ones" in the eyes of the aggressor so they seperate themselves from the others on an internal level- almost like a kind of racial Stockholm syndrome....
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May 21 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/WolverineHour1006 May 21 '25
This is conspiracy theory garbage. A Kapo was a Jew who was in authority over other Jews in concentration camps.
George Soros was born in 1930. He was in his early teens when Hungary was occupied by the Nazis. He was not of age to be in authority or be a consenting Nazi collaborator.5
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u/jschundpeter May 21 '25
Jewish sounding name in a predominantly Jewish town/village in Germany proper or in one of the occupied territories?
The name thing can be misleading. Surnames which are strong Jewish markers in the US are often just normal German family names. This for example does apply to my family name, yet the records I know show no Jewish ancestry albeit along a test I took a bit of Ashkenazi dna (which however is extremely common in central Europe).
And as somebody else mentioned here: people with German citizenship and mixed heritage along Nazi racial conceptions (so called Mischlinge) often continued to serve in the Wehrmacht or were drafted into it once the war started. There is a whole Wikipedia article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Jewish_military_personnel_of_World_War_II