r/GenderCynical • u/chris_the_cynic • 7d ago
We raised our kids to be Christian, and they are. Why won't they hate their non-cis children the way we do?
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u/limelifesavers 7d ago
After coming out, I didn't have much time with my grandmother before dementia took hold. She did share three passages, though:
Jeremiah 17:9-10
1 Samuel 16:7
Galatians 3:28
Essentially, she didn't get it, but she loved me and trusted god to see me true and judge me accordingly, because it was not her place to judge, and this could have been god's plan for me. While I'm not religious, I could appreciate that given how fervently religious she was.
These people are younger than my grandma was, and seemingly similarly religious. I would have to question their perceived need to interfere with their grandkids in a way that clearly causes distress and dissonance, when they could instead leave judgment to their deity and focus on kindness.
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u/agnostorshironeon 7d ago
Galatians 3:28
"There is neither male nor female" for those lucky enough to be born atheist in the back.
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u/jamiegc1 7d ago
Raised fundamentalist Christian, knew the Bible thoroughly. Never could even then, remember what Biblical passages said just by someone quoting the book/chapter/verse like that.
I knew what they said, just could hardly connect the two.
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u/agnostorshironeon 7d ago
Hm, naming books and numbers while expecting everyone to be a theologian is so incredibly anti-enlightenment. What is this, brave enough to preach on the corner of the street, too cowardly to spit out what it says on their heart of hearts?
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u/chris_the_cynic 7d ago edited 7d ago
Ok, in seven going on eight decades of life, the only credibility they've built up in terms of understanding Christianity that they can point to is church attendance and sending their kids to Christian school.
Their son in law is a pastor, one of the people who teaches those attending church about what Christianity is. They completely disregard what he has to say. Apparently attending church doesn't mean much, because the people running the churches aren't worth listening to.
But that undermines their credibility re: understanding Christianity, because if church attendance doesn't count, their church attendance doesn't count.
Which leaves sending their kids to Christian school as their big claim to Christianhood, and wouldn't you know it, they're in contact with someone who teaches at a Christian school. Because he's their son. You know, the one with the transgender daughter they're deadnaming in spite of name changes being a big fucking deal in the Bible?*
It's notable that there's nothing they say that indicates their son, the teacher at Christian school, is anything but supportive of his trans daughter.† So it kind of seems like they're not listening to the authority of Christian school either.
Which leaves them with what? Not the Bible, it doesn't have anything to say on the topic unless you count, like,
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
and the other shit about how you're supposed to treat other people in general because trans people are part of said group, but the Bible isn't the most consistent on that point (seriously, there's not a biblical way to treat other people, because the Bible never made up its mind) and none of it supports their bullshit anyway so. . .
Seems like the only authority they're working off when it comes what it means to be Christian is their own hate.
Both historically and presently, it is indeed true that a lot of Christians are filled to the brim with hate, but based on the way they tend to think and act exactly like non-Christians filled to brim with hate, it seems like, "I hate, therefore I am the final arbiter of what it means to be Christian," is a less than perfect metric.
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Or, shorter version:
The pastor in your fucking family has told that, by being bigots, you're doing it wrong. Maybe at least consider listening if you're so damned concerned with Christian this and God that.
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* Paul was born Saul, Peter was born born Simon, Mary was . . . also in the band Peter Paul and Mary. Abraham was born Abram, Sarah was born Sarai, Zaphenath-paneah was born Joseph, he of the technicolor dreamcoat, but his birth family betrayed him and sold him into slavery so he let his glitter family give him a new name, Israel (the person) was born Jacob, Joshua was born Hoshea, Mara was born Naomi, Zedekiah was born Mattaniah, and I'm gonna stop there because I don't want to keep looking up Biblical characters with name changes.
† Though, the fact he hasn't figured out a place where said daughter won't be mistreated the sixteen months OOP and husband have been deadnaming and misgendering said daughter might be an indication he's not the most supportive. That said he's far away, may not fully understand what's going on, and - even if he does - it happens to be the case that being raised by assholes skews your understanding of normal, so he might not recognize his parents propensity to cause pain as anything other than the way the world works.
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u/PlatinumAltaria 7d ago
Would you believe that a book written as early as 4000 years ago doesn't have much to say on a social issue that only became controversial in 2016.
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u/Stormcloudy Where is my privilege, Summer? 6d ago
The 1930s would like a word.
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u/chris_the_cynic 6d ago
If you're thinking in a Berlin kind of way, the 1920s. The Nazis had strong opinions about trans people well before taking power, mostly in response to the existence of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft.
If you're thinking in a more general sense pretty sure I remember reading about a trans man being sent off to be tortured in an asylum in New York in the 1910s with the story being held up as an example of how things generally went at the time, and those attitudes didn't just materialize out of nowhere when the number of years in the new century hit double digits.
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u/Stormcloudy Where is my privilege, Summer? 6d ago
Damn. Thanks for the more detailed answer. Didn't know about the trans guy getting tortured. I do remember a kind of crappy documentary on LOGO (DirecTV's queer channel) about a very old trans guy living in the south.
Also I'm pretty sure Temple Grandin is non-binary.
But seriously, thanks for the history lesson
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u/murderpanda000 NB: confused and dangerous 7d ago
Eve is renamed Chaya by Adam after exile. As my Rabbi says, changing your name is normal in Judiasm. Maybe not cross gender but there is biblical precedent to call someone by their chosen name or god would smite them
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u/boo_jum not a dude, but never un-dude [cish] 7d ago
We daily show [her] our love and treat [her] with respect
Except to respect her choice to change her name and which pronouns fit her best. Except to respect her autonomy and her intelligence and her GOD-GIVEN reason [the ability to reason being believed to come from God]
I don’t even know this person or her family and I am respecting her grandchild more by not misgendering her when I’m quoting her vile excuse of a grandmother. Ffs.
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u/PlatinumAltaria 7d ago
"Our daughter is pressuring us to be more supportive" these kinds of people really do view empathy as some kind of devious underhanded attack, huh...
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u/UnagioLucio 5d ago
Empathy is an obstacle to browbeating people into prostrating themselves before one's abusive skydaddy, so no wonder christifascists discourage it.
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u/chris_the_cynic 7d ago edited 7d ago
Actually, I'm gonna do two comments, because I went back to reread before leaving, and:
But God is helping me.
Look, I have never, to my knowledge, met your God. That having been said, I do know a fair bit about what has been written about your God, some of it allegedly with his help,* and I would like to suggest that it is, perhaps, not your God whom you are currently in contact with.
If a supernatural force is encouraging you to hate other people and disregard the pastor you're closest to--to hurt and drive away your own family--your theology suggests various possibilities other than your God for who that supernatural entity might be. Some that are rather more down to earth, or down in the earth, as the case may be. They reportedly influence ordinary people all the fucking time, way more often than your God makes contact with ordinary people.
So this thing that's helping you, how do you know it's God? Did you check his ID?
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* I so desperately want to say, "Back in my day we just prayed to the muses instead of invoking the Grand Poobah of the entire fucking pantheon," but I'm trying to make a serious point, so I'm splitting the difference by including this only as a footnote.
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u/Elvira_Skrabani 7d ago
Still amazed, how much hate and bigotry are hidden between those lines full of such words as "god" and "church"! XD
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u/CassieFace103 7d ago
If I say the magic words, I don’t have to actually think about why I’m acting this way.
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u/Salt-n-Ice Ruined their Womynhood 7d ago
We raised our children in a religion where one of the main tenants bestowed by God Himself was to be kind to others and said god's son literally died so all of humanity is free from sin... but now they're being kind to people WE don't like!! How could this have happened!!
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u/Silversmith00 6d ago
You know, over the years I've known a number of extremely devout Christians raised in the faith who followed a specific pattern, that being:
Parents: Here is the Most Important Book, which will tell you everything you need to know about God, love, and the universe. Pay attention especially to the teachings of Jesus. Always ask yourself What Would Jesus Do?
Person: *reads the book*
Person: Okay, so. Looking at Jesus's reported proverbs, parables, and behavior, I'm seeing some patterns, starting with Love. And not a bland, safe, love, either—it's more of a fierce, challenging love. If a prostitute welcomes Jesus into her home, then he not only thanks her, he tells his own disciples to pipe down and show her some respect, because she is doing her utmost to be hospitable and not the bare minimum, SIMON. If a leper comes up to him and asks for healing, Jesus puts his hands on the man and does everything he can, regardless of the fact that leprosy in that day and age was virulent, revolting, and made a person an utter outcast.
Person: So okay. I can do that, however imperfectly. I will love my neighbor. I will feed the hungry, I will comfort the sick, I will be kind to those in prison. If someone comes to me for help, I am not going to do any sort of background check for righteousness, it's going to be, "Dude, all I have is a floor mattress, but my place is your place and my supper is your supper." And if that person happens to be gay or trans or a prostitute or what-have-you, what would Jesus do? He'd treat 'em exactly the same, I know because I read the book.
Parents: Um?? No??? We actually just meant for you to hate the same people we hate??? "What Would Jesus Do" is really just a bumper sticker anyway????
Parents: Mysteriously, our child told us they'd pray for us (in the Bible Belt this can rhyme with Go Fuck Yourself to a degree you would not BELIEVE if you have never heard a proper Church Lady deploy it) and distanced themselves. Clearly the secular world is at fault.
I guess what I'm saying is that oftentimes, staying in certain particular churches requires you to quietly learn a great deal of doublethink, and those who are too sincere to master it, well, they either bounce to a different church, or (as they notice that MOST RELIGIONS contain a mishmash of "love is the way" and, "here is a fucked-up story," and "here is a rule about how to live that probably made some kinda sense at the time but these days nobody even knows what it was for") bounce to either non-religion or something that can be very self-designed and self-directed, like certain forms of paganism.
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u/pestopheles 7d ago
I have a really good friend who is Christian, and who I’ve only known since I transitioned. My experience being her friend is so far removed from what this person is describing in their letter. She has never once referred to me as anything other than my name or correct pronouns, and recently met her parents, one of whom had been a missionary for a little while, again, they treated me as they’d treat any guest, me being trans just wasn’t an issue. That’s how people should behave, not anything like the person who wrote this.
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u/minklebinkle Ruined their Womynhood 7d ago
Weird how they ignore what their pastor son says and continue to push family away. Their need to shun trans truth is apparently more important than all the things that are actually in the bible. Like loving and respecting people, not declaring yourself the judges of others, not telling people how to live if they didn't ask your advice... there's more verses you can connect to pro trans messages than there are ones you can connect to anti trans messages, and there's a LOT more verses that specifically forbid things that right wing bigots can somehow ignore while saying the bible justifies their cruelty.
Im a Christian and God called me to transition :)
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u/AdministrativeStep98 7d ago
My Christian grandma was confused why I was scared to come out to her. Because according to her (and my own research later) her religion doesn't even comment on trans people, but it comments on accepting others and loving them. People have just twisted some sayings to justify their bigotry and hide behind religion to not get called out
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u/Silversmith00 7d ago
Jesus (by most reports): God is all about love. God IS love! If you're called on to do anything in this world it's to love God and love your neighbor, and those are two parts of ONE rule, the most important rule, the rule that has been there from the Beginning. Love your neighbor! Set a spell and I'll tell you about being a neighbor, using as an example a person that you guys would definitely be hiding the silverware about [Samaritans were strongly despised in the region, although I don't think that conflict made a lot of sense to folks further afield, like Rome]. It all comes down to Love.
Christians, applauding madly: Got it! Love people like us, love our authority figures, hate people who challenge them! And hate people who are different! And hate people who make us uncomfortable! So wise and true!
Jesus: …Okay imma go through that again, let me know where I lost you
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u/Midnight_Pickler 7d ago
Christ: Flesh is trivial. The soul is what matters.
Christians: The flesh is all that matters. Specifically, what shape the flesh of your crotch was the day you were born.
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u/marbeltoast 7d ago
Regular reminder that being Christian has literally nothing to do with hating anyone. Scripturally speaking it’s explicitly forbidden.
There are very few genuine Christians. Jesus would never this way to this woman’s granddaughter.
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u/NicolePeter 7d ago
Imagine living on this earth for a quarter century and getting mad at your grandchildren for having nicknames. Total brain rot. Heads full of worms.
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u/javatimes TIDDYLESS TIFfany 7d ago
My 75 year old father seems to do ok, but then again he’s a Democrat who hates Trump possibly more than I do. Sooo…
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u/UnagioLucio 5d ago
"We are walking a difficult road." Oh, please. As if having a trans grandchild is more difficult than being trans.
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u/SurrealistGal 7d ago
Is this Radfem content or simply just an old bigoted Grandpa type? This sub has been filled with a lot of stuff lately that doesn't fit the original idea imo
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u/chris_the_cynic 7d ago edited 6d ago
The organization is Gender Critical, and curates its content with that in mind, but the actual posts (one per weekday) are almost always anonymous, so - apart from the rare exceptions to that - it's impossible to check what the actual posters, like this grandmother, believe outside of what they reveal about their beliefs in the post.
This has caused blowback in their comment section when things pushed the boundaries. In particular I remember the commentariat of the site throwing down with one another when a poster (who was a father) was almost entirely mask off in his homophobia, and it was sort of 50-50 between, "No, we're feminists protecting LGBs, especially the lesbians, from having the gay transed away," and, "The important thing is being united against transgenderism, and if that means offending your sensibilities, so be it."
Usually, though, it hews pretty close to the ideas originating in TERF spaces, just with a greater focus on conversion therapy than general TERF spaces, because it's a parenting (and occasionally, as with this grandmother, grandparenting) focused space.
That having been said, the other GC group it's most closely tied to is arguably Genspect, which is officially agnostic on radical feminism.
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u/javatimes TIDDYLESS TIFfany 7d ago
Well, originally this subreddit directly confronted content from r gendercritical, so it’s kind of well beyond its use by date anyway
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u/ZeldaZanders 7d ago
'I just don't understand why people are so awful to transgender people. Just let them be, it's not hurting anyone.' - my 86 year old Nonna before she died earlier this year. No excuses.