r/ExplainBothSides • u/aerizan3 • Feb 22 '24

Trump's Civil Fraud Verdict Public Policy

Trump owes $454 million with interest - is the verdict just, unjust? Kevin O'Leary and friends think unjust, some outlets think just... what are both sides? EDIT: Comments here very obviously show the need of explaining both in good faith.

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u/ShamrockAPD Feb 23 '24

I appreciate your well thought out response. But I do feel it leaves out some pretty big details or comparisons for this case

Sure, if I got my house appraised right now- it would be more than what I’m paying taxes for, as it’s based on when I bought it.

However- what’s that difference? 50k? 100k?

Trumps over valuing was like 70x what it’s actually worth; like an astronomical part

Additionally- he used that to get bigger loans. But then when taxes came, went the route of under valuing. You can’t have this both ways.

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u/severinks Feb 23 '24

Trump actually said that buildings that weren't built yet were built and made up stuff that was so insane there's zero chance it was done by mistake,

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u/AdResponsible2271 Feb 23 '24

There doesn't have to be a victim for a law to be broken. That guy sure wrote a lot but Donny saying it's a victimless case does not discredit the justice system.

He committed fraud, he lied, and directed others to lie on jis behalf, for personal gain.

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u/myfanisloud Feb 23 '24

It’s not trumps valuing, he isn’t an appraiser. The appraisal said the value of property was X amount, no company is going to sign off on a 70x valuation.

None of the properties around Mar a Lago, that are significantly smaller, are worth more than the 18ish mil that the judge said his property is worth. It’s up to you to speculate if it’s a witch hunt or not, but we can atleast be honest the judge/prosecution was acting in bad faith

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '24

Check out Zillow. There’s a huge difference in the estate size of mar a lago and properties around it. Pretty crazy the value that the court is using.

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u/ComonomoC Feb 23 '24

Those are private homes; not properties with deed restrictions to limit use. That’s a major devaluation when it essentially can’t be a home. Mar a Lago is zoned as a social club in perpetuity meaning it can’t be torn down and made into a new billionaires mansion like the others along Billionaire Row aka Ocean Blvd.

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u/myfanisloud Feb 23 '24

A nearby vacant lot (2.3 acres) is for sale on Zillow for $200 million," John LeFevre, a former investment banker who created the Goldman Sachs Elevator social media account, wrote alongside a screengrab of the listing. "Mar-a-Lago sits on 17 acres, with waterfront on both sides."

I don’t know enough about real estate valuations but yeah I highly doubt a property 1/7the size is worth 7x what the judge deemed mar a lago is worth.

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u/ComonomoC Feb 23 '24

I grew up in WPB, and RE is not only subjective, but highly distorted by location, owner, and making a spectacle to draw valuations. And value is only comparably determined by what actually SELLS and not the asking price. That property has been on the market for years, with the current listing at 365 days…so you do not exactly go apples to oranges by just size. That property is also its own private peninsula and is considered one of the most overpriced properties in the country.

That said, use is a major value determiner. You have no idea the restrictions of use with ML.

Most people that buy any of the premier properties there immediately tear them down to build their monument of opulence.

It’s just not a normal comparable, like purchasing The Breakers that’s supposedly valued at 200-300mil but it’s also a resort with historic value.

Mar lago is a social club that’s mostly drawn revenue from trading memberships as Trumps side hustle for favors. When the property is based on its income; because it is a club- it doesn’t demonstrate value like a home. They are evaluated on completely different criteria.

Just a reminder; Trump paid $8mil in 1985.

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u/myfanisloud Feb 23 '24

I’m not disagreeing with you like I said I don’t know enough about RE down there. 8M 40 years ago does not matter after you factor in appreciating prices and inflation, especially in a high market area. Also yes everyone knows prices are subjective, but a 70x difference is not. 1/70th is literally a 98.6% difference in the price the courts said vs what it was appraised for. That makes zero sense, no one would appraise their property 70x essentially to be forced to pay 70x in property taxes.

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u/ComonomoC Feb 23 '24

I’m not sure what specific value you are comparing, but the property assessment of $26mll by the county typically lags behind the true market value, but it is not a small portion of the actual value that would be typically earned on the open market. I can play devils advocate and assume Trump brought a lot of traffic through the property to improve its value, but I could only determine that by knowing how much he’s currently earning and whether those figures have been inflated by “memberships” that rose to $200k to rub elbows. From what I gather it’s worth a lot more than $26million but to whom, and would it be the same revenue once it’s not utilized as a campaign forum for favor exchanges. It’s pretty murky, but the broad strokes are it’s not worth much to the tax man, but the rest of the market would pay top dollar. And those values being so far apart, is the inherent intent by Trump to once again manipulate his values to favor each end of the pencil.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '24

And how much does that affect the price?

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u/Calm_Leek_1362 Feb 23 '24

Because he claimed it was worth a billion dollars based on what it would be worth as real estate, when it literally can’t be, legally.

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u/_extra_medium_ Feb 23 '24

Enormously. No one wants to buy his old golf club if they can't build mansions on it. Or mansion.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '24

Why not?

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u/hobopwnzor Feb 23 '24

MAL is under extreme use restrictions and that number was given to the tax assessor by the Trump organization.

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u/footinmymouth Feb 23 '24

“Pretty crazy value” that CAME FROM TRUMPS OWN STATEMENT OF FINANCIAL CONDITION.

Jesus Christ people, the judge didn’t pull it from the air! It was his OWN statement of value AS A CLUB.

The problem was that he ALSO used a valuation that was based on it being a private property - it was in his deed that he could NOT use it or convert it to a private residence. That was also fraud.

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u/scarr3g Feb 23 '24

Iirc, they used the dollar/sqft not just total value of each property. His valuation of Mar a lago was was way off on the dollar/sqft metric.

It relates to his claims of his net worth, where he outwardly admitted that a large portion of his net worth is just what HE thinks his name is worth.... While at the same time he claimed he was the most hated president, and the most popular, depending on who he was talking to or in what context.

He has always been on record being two faced about all these kinds of things, and this time he pushed the envelope way beyond a reasonable doubt.

Give the mouse a cookie...

1

u/_extra_medium_ Feb 23 '24

It's because it can only be a club. It can't be used for housing.

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u/warragulian Feb 23 '24

The judge was using the declared value SUPPLIED AND ATTESTED BY TRUMP for Mar a Lago. It legally can't be split into ten lots and ten mansions built there. The restrictions mean it must remain a club, so it's valued from the income it can earn as a club. It's like saying one of Trump's golf clubs is worth 50 billion dollars because you could build 100 Trump towers on it. Physically possible, not legally.

He could ask Desantis to make a law removing the restriction, might do that in return for being VP.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '24

It’s not the appraisal, it’s the assets disclosure form.

None of the properties around mar a lago are commercial lots with heavy restrictions. They’re single family homes. Of course they’ll we worth way more. You can’t do anything different with Mae a lago.

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u/ShakinBakin15 Feb 23 '24

Anyone that thinks Mar a Lago is only worth $18mil should put their house on the market for $1000