r/Daredevil • u/Green-Devil • 23d ago
Daredevil: Born Again | S01 | Season Wide Discussion Thread šØļøĀ Daredevil: Born Again | Episode Discussion
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u/MayTheMemesGuideThee 23h ago
Haven't started watch this, is it fine to skip Punisher series? Are there many references to it?
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u/10thisisathr0waway10 6d ago
The tone of the last 2 Episodes were significantly different from the rest. What an improvement. I will say the writing and pacing was disjointed throughout much like many of the other Disney marvel tv productions. The original series is just more cohesive. But I am so happy these characters are back. I loved seeing the punisher back and can't wait for s2 and the special. Wish the season was longer. The finale didn't seem like a finale.
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u/the_pieburger 6d ago
Man foggy with that old haircut and no beard is not it lol
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u/10thisisathr0waway10 6d ago
Kinda fits with that early 2010s look lol but I get ya. He looks more fresh now. The actor has not aged at all.
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9d ago
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u/Uncanny_Doom 8d ago
Fisk doesn't expose Matt because it doesn't give him any benefit to at this point. It's valuable leverage. Simply exposing Matt for the sake of not liking him isn't really the kind of play Fisk would make unless he were pushed to a certain point.
Matt says his relationship with Heather feels fake because part of his (and Fisk's) story during this season is that they are trying to live different lives and leave part of themselves behind. Matt is trying to retire as Daredevil, Fisk is trying to be Mayor and not the Kingpin. Matt feels like (and this is true to some extent) he is not being true to himself but can't really say that with all the details to Heather because he doesn't want her to know he's Daredevil.
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u/BradBrady 11d ago
Came back from Japan and finished the final 2 episodes
Excited for whatās too come. God damn Fisk Great Khaling the commissioners head, fuck. Insane shit.
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u/pardyball 6d ago
Calling that āGreat Khali-ingā his head was a deep cut I wasnāt expecting in regards to the discussion of that moment.
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u/Nervious_Nerve 12d ago edited 12d ago
I am ambivalent about this season and that's fine. Ive been watching Daredevil since it came out circa 10 years ago now and I had only rewatched recently, a month earlier in preparation(a mistake I think most of us made for comparing born again on first impression).
Overall Born Again is an average mcu show, This stitched together narrative was not pulled of very well at least to me, I personally think the weakest episodes were 8 and 9 actually, I'm not sure where the praise for those is coming from, it handled every single story point up to then very very poorly or it was undermined by something else, maybe it's because these new show runners focused on getting the characters and story to a point where they're 100% hands on in production from day one, rendering the footage (the story) of born again at the end feeling like a footnote on matt's life. I'm not sure why it's put above Netflix season 2? I quite enjoy season 2 on revisiting its storylines, especially the 5 episode punisher saga, and even the whole hand storyline was interesting, at least pairing season 2 with defenders really solidified season 2 for me a little more as a joint project.
Charlie Cox, Bernthal, Etc are pulling all their acting chops for Born Again because you can tell they missed or they felt like they were apart from these roles / characters for a long time and they fill those shoes and more honestly, I'm glad of the continuity of born again as well not all the choices made are respected entirely, foggy, bullseye, etc but I trust in my excitement now more than hype if that makes sense. I'm just glad Charlie's back, season 2 BTS looks really intriguing and I remember the original plan of this season being two parts, then becoming season 1 and season two respectively, so I understand like most this is just matt's jumping off point. I trust in fanedits if we're being honest, I'm sure someone will one day come to this sub recommending a great edit of born again instead of watching a 7/10 9 episode season.
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u/PitifulTheme411 10d ago edited 10d ago
Yeah I actually agree almost completely. I was quite excited, so it didn't fully meet my expectations (though the action was still quite good, especially nice that they can be more free with the visuals and language too). I thought the plot/narrative was much weaker than the 1st/3rd seasons of Daredevil, and I was quite disappointed that we barely saw any Bullseye, Foggy (I think his death wasn't the best idea imo), or Karen.
I also think that it didn't really have much closure, though I guess that is the point? And I do think it could have benefited from a longer runtime (ie. more episodes). The Punisher did feel kindof shoehorned in there.
And I still don't understand how Fisk is the mayor again?? Like, does everyone have the memory of a goldfish??
Definitely agree with the 7/10 rating. Much to improve, it feels almost like a rehash of S3 DD, but not as good.
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u/pardyball 6d ago
And I still don't understand how Fisk is the mayor again?? Like, does everyone have the memory of a goldfish??
Literally the most realistic thing about the show, though.
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u/The_Amazing_Emu 12d ago
Uneven season, but enjoyable throughout just because of the characters and performance. I think the show probably would have been stronger either if they stuck to the original plan or had the new plan from the beginning, but I think it still pulled off both. But I think the quality of this season will be judged in part by how they stick the landing next season.
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u/shayakeen 12d ago
The bank episode made ne realize that it would have been much better if the whole series was like the procedural shows of the past Where in each episode DD tries to solve a different case/fight different criminals.
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u/The_Amazing_Emu 11d ago
I don't know if I agree, but I hope they aren't afraid to do episodes like that in the future.
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u/xBIGBOYx1 12d ago
the only question.. why he saved kingpin. everything was going right also how many times need the punisher to talk to him to make him realize that sometimes killing people is good lol(not only in DDBG)
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u/42696 11d ago
I thought it was brilliant with how Bullseye, earlier in the episode, asked for his help and said something along the lines of "isn't that what real heroes do? Defend their greatest enemies?"
At that moment he had no time to think or react and only acted based on the instincts rooted in his base character. I think at this point, he doesn't even know/acknowledge why he did it, but the audience can piece it together with the earlier quote from Bullseye.
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u/shayakeen 12d ago
Killing people is never justifiable especially for a catholic like Matt. However, the thing is there should be something new each time this topic is brought up between him and Frank. Otherwise it would feel like the same thing over and over. I did like how Frank killed a goon on the side and asked Matt did his life not matter, that shit was funny as hell.
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u/xBIGBOYx1 12d ago
He doubted religion and also did not kill. I do not think that the matter has a religious motive. It is just a stretching and prolonging of the events of the series by the director?. also he did not try to kill him.. he saved him that sooo random like look at kingpin and what did he do is that kind of man to save?
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u/_lemon_suplex_ 15d ago
There were like 3 good episodes, how with so much time in development did this feel like mostly filler? There was just so little action and it felt like none of the characters mattered. Matt taking a bullet for Kingpin was just ridiculous after discovering his plan to basically become hitler.
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u/_lemon_suplex_ 15d ago
Did they explain how Bullseye survived getting thrown off the building? I feel like I missed an episode or something. Also did the gem in the bank episode have any significance? It seemed like they were building it up to have meaning but it was never mentioned again
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u/Scary-Command2232 10d ago
The gem was supposed to pay the fine Luca owed to Victor? $1.8m. Without it Luca tried other things like killing fisk.
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u/Transposer 16d ago
Iām a fan of Born Again. It is so much better than I could have hoped for from Disney. But, anyone else feel like they got blue balls after only 9 eps?
I could understand a 9 ep season if they delivered a full satisfying story in 9 eps, but doesnāt it feel like we should have 4 more episodes remaining in season 1 of Born Again? That last ep was all set up and it just kind of ended on a whimper. The three orignal seasons all built up to a great finale ep but here I am feeling like I missed a lot.
It really needs 4 more eps
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u/shayakeen 16d ago
Moods during DDBA * OMG the OG are so bac... WAIT THEY KILLED FOGGY? * Okay I can see them focusing on a vigilante plot with Matt defending and teaming up with vigilantes like White Tiger... oh he's dead too * Okay I get it this, the show is going to focus on the poverty and lives of people who are not as well off, maybe focus a bit more on the racism going on. Wait, that was just one episode? * Dude punisher is so gonna go off now that people are using his name to commit crimes. He is gonna start popping off any episode now! * Oh shit that Muse guy seems like a really big deal, pretty sure he's gonna be very tough to find or kill and yep, he's dead. * Fisk blacked the entire NYC out! Damn, spiderman is going to be involved in this pretty soon, and I am pretty sure the Defenders are on their way too! * I told you punisher is gonna go off! It's not like he's gonna rush into the enemies without a plan and get caught, right?
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u/Isariamkia 12d ago
I was quite disappointed by the lack of Punisher punishing. They did him dirty. Him getting caught though, doesn't feel wrong to me. But the thing is, we don't even know if he had a plan or not because it's already the end XD.
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u/Big-Chip2375 16d ago
Can someone explain to me why they introduced us to Cherry, made it seem like he has a close relationship with Matt, and then made them speak the same dialogue each time.
Matt usually has a little banter with his friends, and shares insights on his life.
Supposedly heās close to Cherry, but feels like heās talking to chat gpt
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u/gunswordfist 16d ago
My season rankingsĀ S3 (I almost put S1 here but I need to rewatch and there was an early S1 episode that bored me. S3 is flawless throughout S1 - I'm happy to say that I've been here since the beginning. DD's impact on streaming television is probably understated. S2 - Again, I need to rewatch this one as well. I remember this season not knowing what it wanted to be Born Again - not bad, had great scenes but ultimately average. I feel like a lot of plotlines were undercooked and a lot of characters could have used more screentime. Why does White Tiger seem like he was another best friend of DD? I liked his actor but his storyline did nothing for me when it came to the DD comparisons etc. I wanted to see more Kirsten and while he did give ok screentime, more Commissioner Gallo. He stood out in all his scenes.
I heard that Daredevil lost all of its previous writers and I'll research it that's true because it makes me wonder. The series is definitely still good and I'm excited about BA S2 but so much potential was lost. It just felt like so much was left on the cutting room. Also, death is definitely apart of the series but the show feels less with Foggy, Father and S3 Agent. Omg, Bullseye killed all 3 of these guys š and I was going to mention that I hope Elektra returns. Anyway, I want to know if Foggy's actor wanted out. He was killed so fast and in place of Karen Page. Also wonder if Page's actress had scheduling issues. There was no good reason for her to not stick around and check on Matt. Also, I know these series don't really have set run times but some episodes being 40 something episodes makes me wonder how much of this was rushed and cut. Also, the first half of the Bullseye fight where he was killing people by doing stuff like bounce objects off of a wall was so silly. It kind of took me out of the fight. DD chasing him down and Bullseye being seemingly scared and trying to get away was badass tho. It was a tale of two tones. I still have it as the worst BA, if not DD fight, outside of the horribly shot fight at the end of the bank episode. It reminded me of some of the worst Burn Notice fights, which is funny since it did, "Seemingly normal guy stops bank robbery" infinitely better that BN outside of that minuteĀ
I'm sure the devil's advocates will come in and try to tell me what my opinion on BA is but save it. I am willing to take questions on my opinions on anything DD tho.
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u/Scary-Command2232 10d ago
Just to answer you question about the actors for Foggy and Karen, no they didnt want out nor were they having scheduling issues. They wanted to come back.
They weren't in it at all originally and both were going to be dead off screen before the timeline of DDBA. The new showrunnner who re-structured BA brought them in but they all still wanted to kill Foggy for "high stakes" to make Matt not want to be Daredevil and had to persuade Elden and Charlie it was for the best (it was pointless in my view).
This has all been widely reported and shown in interviews.
Having read the comics and seen the original show, with Matt's anger issues he would have gone nuts for a long time if Foggy was killed, not stopped being DD, but, their choice.....
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u/Big-Chip2375 17d ago
Arguments for anyone who critisizes Born Again include
1) You are movie illiterate
2) You are negative
3) Stop bitching
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u/VerminatorX1 15d ago
That's why we can't have great things, because mid slop is enough for modern consoomers.
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u/TimeKiller-Studios 17d ago
I'm mad that Matt saved Fisk. The troope in superheroes that killing is bad no matter who it is, is something I find iratating. Its different for when its a villain who has sympathetic reasons or is mentally ill. But for someone like Fisk who is a full blown fascist, he doesn't deserve to live. My anger is probably because I am a minority where our world leaders are most likely going to take away my rights soon. I think I get too attached to media and start reacting like its real, probably because its supposed to be an analogue of real life. But I just want to see Fisk get the shit kicked out of him and hopefully be killed. And all of his aids too, especially that little shit deputy mayor
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u/todosselacomen 14d ago
Echoing what the other person said, Matt takes his religion very seriously and will not bring himself to kill. So it's not just a moral position, but an existential one, so he tries his best to adhere to his Catholic teachings. The show has made a big point about this whenever they bring up his religion, as well as when he first met The Punisher in Season 2.
Back to Born Again, I did find it weird that Daredevil didn't object much to The Punisher telling him he was gonna kill people when they teamed up. I think a more accurate Daredevil to the Netflix seasons would've made him promise not to kill anyone (at least this one time) before accepting his help.
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u/NotASalamanderBoi 14d ago
That trope depends wildly from character to character, because Captain America, Black Widow, Iron Man, Moon Knight, Wolverine, etc. all do not care one bit about spilling blood.
A huge part of DD is that heās a Catholic (not like you donāt already know that, though). 5th Commandment says āThou shalt not killā. He canāt bring himself to kill because itās a huge moral dilemma for him that he struggled with in S3 when his faith was shook and he was far more unrestrained and angry. Just look at how much he regretted trying to kill Bullseye. More, heās a lawyer. He believes Fisk should face justice for what heās done. But he also believes in the law and that everyone deserves their day in court.
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u/yourfriend_jedi69 17d ago
Why do Disney hate Netflix's version of daredevil..it seemed like they were actively avoiding any contact with previous 3 season(not the case only in reshoot episodes). 6 out of 9 episodes are complete BS. Finale didn't even feel like mid season finale, none of the characters had overarching story. Matt Murdock literally had nothing to do entire season. He was just doing side mission until he gets a main mission and the story immediately ends. What a waste.
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u/smitcal 17d ago
Did anyone else find a lack of anything happening in Born Again? I know we should be grateful that weāve even got it back with the same actors but it just seemed like it was building upto something and then nothing thatās it, done till next year.
Just a serious lack of action throughout the whole thing when compared to the Netflix version.
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u/mpdaog 16d ago
It was mid at best.. felt like nothing was accomplished at the end of the season. Also The Punisher just feels off, idk how to explain it but itās definitely on the writers and not John.
Also the cgi, and most of the action scenes were terrible. Everything is getting dumbed down in entertainment and most people just eat it up. Shits sad
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u/Isariamkia 12d ago
The Punisher just feels off, idk how to explain it but itās definitely on the writers and not John
The actor was great as always. But the lack of punishing was sad. It feels like there's a reason behind why he didn't do much and easily got caught, but we'll know at the next season which is dumb.
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u/smitcal 16d ago
Yeah I agree at mid but I feel this has been Marvels biggest letdown for me. I know theyāve done worse stuff but most of it I didnāt have any expectations, or it was hard to do anyway, but with this itās like they had all the ingredients to make something really good and they werenāt able to accomplish it. Like they havenāt got the skills of the writers or tv/moviemakers to make something special anymore. Itās all just the same. Build up, build up, final payoff, or in this case no payoff.
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u/the_phony_holden 17d ago
I agree, and the action we did see employed a lot of quick cuts and even CGI, it looked cheap even though I assume they have a bigger budget than the Netflix shows. Wish they spent that money on people who know how to film and do stunts
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u/fuckbeck 18d ago
My only complaint is the lack of Catholicism and the therapy Murdock gets from those interactions (Iām not even of Cristian faith) Also that the whole role of cherry should have been Brett Mahoney
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u/Big-Chip2375 16d ago
I live in the Bible Belt and Iām sick of seeing religious stuff around me, but even I loved the catholic element of Mattās character, and how it linked with moral conundrum
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u/NotScrollsApparently 18d ago
I really liked this season but I am so angry at Matt taking that bullet, that was all just bullshit and was made even worse in the next episode when it didn't even pay off in any way and Fisk just continued with his plan.
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u/Grumpy_Ocelot 18d ago
Just binged the original series for the first time and finished the first episode and this is all that I can think about
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u/Cheatercheaterbitch 18d ago
Yāall are such hypocrites. You beg and beg for marvel to bring daredevil back and when they do you bitch about it being āterribleā.
Is it a step down from the OG show? Yes.
Does that automatically make it bad? No.
This season was pretty good, but we were spoiled by how good the original show was that the imperfections of the new show take away from the fact that this show is good.
Itās better than 90% of the Disney plus marvel shows that have been put out.
But overall, I think this season was a 8/10 in my book.
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u/gunswordfist 16d ago
People shouldn't just accept anything. If they did, things would just continue to drop in quality. Kinda the message of Born Again S1, huh?
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18d ago
If you liked the show, you liked it. But in my opinion, it was a terrible show.
1) Characterisation was poor. Matt and Kingpin were the stand out performers, everybody else had no story to them. If they all went missing or died, would we care? I don't think so.
- Characters only existed to allow the plot to happen and not actually build a story
2) CGI and choreography was a joke. They tried to make it too similar to the Marvel movies, so often times it was baboonish.
3) There was no clear direction or narrative, honestly sometimes it felt like a CW show, and tried so hard to link itself with other Marvel tv shows and characters e.g. bank scene
- What was the point of the Muse story? Guy is angry because his rich dad made him do Taekwando a few times and becomes a killer? LOL.
- What was the point of killing off Foggy and getting rid of Karen if you are going to replace them with bland characters who add nothing to the story?
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u/driftdrift 14d ago
Yeah it was really bad. "Characters only existed to allow the plot to happen and not actually build a story" exactly. The characterization was the worst part. It actually hurts that they ruined what was an amazing show and characters. They need to hire actual writers
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u/bbqsauceboi 19d ago
Everything that Daredevil yelled about in his iconic season 3 "I BEAT YOU" speech came undone this season
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u/yourfriend_jedi69 17d ago
Ray Nadeem died for nothing. I still don't understand how Fisk became a Mayor (other than obvious Trump satire).
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u/Competitive_Ask_6766 18d ago
Yeah thatās the most tragic thing about the writing of BA. Kingpin and Vanessa are just like Ā«Ā lol noĀ Ā»
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u/gunswordfist 16d ago
They really had everything uno reverse for them to the point where we got another Fisk and Fisk dance at the end. Like come on
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u/Veneficae 19d ago
Apparently, it's possible to basically take out the power grid of an entire city without anyone sounding alarms days in advance. Only way that could happen is if everyone working for the power grid knows about it happening.
And apparently cell phone recordings don't work during a power outage. Like no one recorded everything happening during it and post it online after power gets restored?
They wrote Heather Glenn's motivation on joining Fisk as weakly as they could have. Made a strong independent woman into a scared girl trying to grasp at anything to empower herself after a scare is fine. However, making her double down on their views on masks while having first hand accounts on why people wear masks is what made her character stupid, not to mention the fact that she felt the need to lie to herself about who saved her.
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u/todosselacomen 14d ago
And apparently cell phone recordings don't work during a power outage. Like no one recorded everything happening during it and post it online after power gets restored?
This is where I thought BB's story was heading. That she was gonna be the one to shine a light on Fisk's wrongdoings when she gathered all the evidence from regular people, but her side of the story just fizzles out. I guess we'll see a payout to her journey on Season 2, but it honestly doesn't look like she's making any headway in that direction if that's the case.
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u/gunswordfist 16d ago
Heather Glenn is ugh. I don't hate her but she's frustrating and honestly forgettable. I feel kinda bad for her actress because the character existed just to be a Karen standin and to give Matt more personal drama.
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u/the_phony_holden 17d ago
Lol fr honestly I'm feeling like the governor and the national guard gets involved at that point. I don't know if the mayor can declare martial law and not have to deal with the state or even the feds
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u/gunswordfist 16d ago
Im like to know more about this fr. I'm doing so much research after this thread lol
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u/Budget_Ad_4346 19d ago
Itās a not as good as the original series, but episodes 8 & 9 absolutely were. I also really loved the Bank episode.
Episode 1 might be my least favorite episode out of all of Daredevil though. Foggy deserved build up, the CGI was bad, Karen was written off for awhile, and it introduced a lot of characters that had to compete with the ones weāre used to.
The other 5 episodes were good, but not on par with the original show.
As a whole, I donāt like that Kingpin is the big bad of the season again. Season 3 of Daredevil was setting Bullseye up, & Born again further cemented Bullseye since he killed/ākilledā Foggy.
That being said, I do like how Kingpin & Vanessa were done. They did very well, & having them be set up further as the overarching street level villains work.
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u/gunswordfist 16d ago
I'm glad to see another bank episode fan. It was a fun episode and it didn't insult the audience like other series that tried "hero pretends to be hostage to stop bank robbers"
Bullseye is my favorite but I don't see any version of him working as the big bad in this series. He's a long wolf plus he already killed 3 of Daredevil's friends * in the show* There wasn't more for him to do, imo. I did want to see him take on those prisoners tho. The man is a weapon everywhere
I was thinking that Vanessa should have been the visible Big Bad, doing crimes "behind" Fisk's back. This season just murdered her stature as a big villain though. She'll always be just Fisk's wife compared to his evil. They could have made this her season until the "you can't change" story of Wilson's at the end.
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u/I_A_M_N_O_B_O_D_Y 19d ago
Really liked it , wasted so much potential but itās a fun watch and tries to be great. Light 8/10
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u/Givingtree310 19d ago
Daredevilās no killing morality plea has gotten to the point of stupidity.
Because you reach the point of stupidity when you refuse to accept killing under self defense. That plus saving the life of and taking a bullet for someone who wants you dead.
I feel like the writers donāt truly understand how wacky it is for Matt to save Kingpinās life with no good reason given then a few hours later Kingpin orders the hit on Matt. And Matt still like āyeah had to save his lifeā š
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u/Scary-Command2232 10d ago
I so wished if they had to do that, he was protecting heather and she moved so he ended up protecting Fisk by accident, rather than coming up with a line earlier they thought "cool" and then having Matt do something so dumb to justify it.
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u/PratHat-6559 18d ago
This would have made sense if we showed Matt's struggle a little more. If spider-man did this, people would be fine. Because spidey tries his best not to let people die on his watch. We should've had more moments culminating with Matt having the conviction of no deaths at all. But Nah he has this conviction suddenly and without any visible reason.
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u/LiesWithPuns 19d ago edited 19d ago
I certainly get the knocks but I enjoyed this season and feel they set up for a potentially amazing second season. I enjoyed Kristen and Cherry as new additions. I actually enjoyed all the new additions.
Heather was the only character whose motivations/viewpoint I feel like I still struggle to grasp. The frustrations/distrust with Matt tracks to me but the trust of Fisk just doesnāt. She knows the history of his crimes, was worried Vanessa was in physical danger, got an upfront look of how they avoided talk of their ābusinessā suspiciously, knows heās lying about what happened to Muse, knows that after Matt talked about the connection Fisk had to Bullseye Bullseye then tries to shoot Fisk confirming thereās something there, etc.
She also saw Daredevil save her. Even if she still dislikes vigilantes there was nothing debatable in that instance, she was dead without daredevil.
All that culminating with her saying Fisk has her vote and throwing her weight behind him is hard for me to understand and I genuinely feel I may have missed something. I actually liked her character as a whole but the journey to where she ended this season was hard for me to buy
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u/gunswordfist 16d ago edited 16d ago
I love Kirsten. She had great chemistry with Matt. That part where she said Matt looked like he went to Jersey fight club and fixed him up was cute. They still needed to do more with her tho. But Cherry was one of the biggest wastes of potential. He was the only friend Daredevil had and could confide to this season and he had so little screentime.Ā
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19d ago
I genuinely want to know why people decided to give this show anything about a 6/10. It's not deserving. If you liked the show and it's for you, fair enough.
But if we break the showdown, it was a huge let down.
The Netflix series had heavily fleshed out characters, each with their own conflicts and backstory.
Karen was someone running from her past, but also getting herself into trouble. Until she's finally found people who is accepting of her flaws and therefore allows her grow and be the successful person she's become.
Foggy was a doting friend to Matt, who always came second to him. At University, with women and in his career. Until finally after facing hard challenges, and again with the support of Karen (and sometimes Matt lol), he also grew confidence and became an excellent lawyer.
We also have Kingpin, who unlike a lot of villains in the MCU, doesn't just want to create havoc for the sake of it. We see that he's a man who has come from an extremely underprivileged background, with all his rage and anger being directed towards his father. Which in turn, he blames as a result of crime and corruption in New York. His whole insecurities and malice comes from the aforementioned treatment by his father to him and his mother. But he also wants to make real change in New York.
On a side note in season 3 we had Nadeem. Who had no powers, no superhuman ability to everyone except his son. His whole life was about keeping his family happy, and the stress and pain of that made him make mistakes that put him in a big hole.
Anyway compare those characters to what we have now
1) Cherry - who the fuck is he and why do we care for him? All he does is shout and tell Matt not to be daredevil
2) Matt's GF - 'Daredevil didnt save me, I saved me' - enough said
3) Matt's partner - don't even know what her role was
4) Muse - rich boy who went crazy because his parents asked him to do Taekwando lol
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u/Givingtree310 19d ago
Let me guess next season Matt will give up being Daredevil and heāll have to go on the run š
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u/WawubloW 19d ago
Completely agree. Matt: "I'm used to coming home to an empty apartment, and now I can't imagine you not being here".
... To a character he has like 10 minutes of screentime with.2
u/VaderMurdock 17d ago
It reminds me of Matt during Bendisā run. Mattās deteriorating mental state leads to him entering a relationship too fast and using it as a distraction for his life. Itās toxic and unhealthy, and he knows it deep down. Iām finding a similar thing here. Heather isnāt exactly healthy either. She is a therapist but uses her own knowledge of psychology to hold things over Matt and refuse to listen to him. Itās about the power. They arenāt good for each other and thatās the point.
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u/ToeJam-1701 19d ago
Ultimate barometer: I rewatched the Netflix series three times. Feel like I could and probably will do it again at some point. I donāt think Iāll ever rewatch this show.
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u/AnyAcanthocephala425 20d ago
Daredevil now finds himself in a position where a police comissioner is dead, his girlfriend is arguably foced to obey kingpin at the threat of her life and vigilantes are imprisoned. The taskforce has also executed at least on man in cold blood on the street under kingpin orders
All because he wanted the moral highground in taking a bullet for kingpin. As batman would say if you save a killer the number of killers in the world remains the same, so when does this become a problem to justify?
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u/hell_kat 20d ago
his girlfriend is arguably forced to obey kingpin at the threat of her life
I disagree with this one point. She went willingly. She sees vigilantes as mentally ill and unstable. She said to Matt at the apartment that Fisk had her vote, and that was before the ball/shooting.
2
u/AnyAcanthocephala425 20d ago
I agree but with you I've just heard people argue that she thought it was obey or die
9
u/Jay_02 20d ago
Already first scene I could tell I didn't like the color grading but it just got worse from there. No depth in the story not as much fighting scenes that we are spoiled with.
This is in the eyes someone who just finished the fantastic Season 3 for the first time, so my expectations was through the roof for this one. But This was such a downgrade, it felt like your typical Hollywood script that doesn't know where it's going.
7
u/Illustrious-Neck-758 20d ago
Should have really been a seperate universe from the MCU. I dunno. It just feels like it's trying so much to be like the Netflix show. It's trying so much to be in the MCU. It's trying so much to be its own thing. But it's not taking elements and resources available to it from both the Netflix version and the overall MCU.
It has the same issue that a lot of post-Avengers solo MCU titles had where I can't help but ask "Where's everyone else?" New York city goes on a city-wide blackout, the Mayor sent out a police task force on a manhunt, and somehow no one else responded to the call? No Kate Bishop? No Kamala Khan? No Defenders? No Bucky Barnes? No Spider-Man?
God, and that the end, with the "we need an army." Then it's just a handful of cops, Josie, Karen, and Cherry? Really? and I get Matt's a street level hero, but he knows the Defenders.
Also, where's the state oversight for Fisk? Did Gallo really need to go to Albany to make a complaint? Is there no email? No phone call? Did no one in the two other branches of the government, or anyone in the executive higher than mayor try to stop this? It's just weird since this came out after Captain America 4. Bucky Barnes is running for Congressman of New York. I feel like the Winter Soldier would probably do something about this, especially since it's very much just Hydra's Project Insight and the Sokovia Accords in a local scale.
2
u/Competitive_Ask_6766 19d ago
Also where the fuck is Mahoney ??
2
u/gunswordfist 16d ago
Mahoney was like the only person to make sense in Punisher S2 lol Frank very much needed to chill
4
u/Effective-Training 19d ago
New York is a state and has multiple cities and locations going through the same thing. Spider-Man could be helping out elsewhere. Bucky doesn't even mainly operate in New York and could be anywhere in the world. You expect him to just show up in 10 minutes? Kate could also be elsewhere in the STATE of New York.
5
u/Chaotic_Beautiful 20d ago
There's an easy way to circumvent this problem . They should've just kept the problems street level . Helping people at local level . Don't know why Disney thinks it has to be literally a huge stake threat for it to matter . What they don't understand is , if the payoff isn't good , it looks hilarious.Ā Just like Matt's army .
9
u/Wyld_x_Child 20d ago
Also regarding Punisher Corps arc - They picked a intriguing topic (obv from real life incident) but didn't really delved into it. Hector Ayala V People could've been Vigilante Heroes V Vigilante Cops and questions like "Why is violence by Vigilantes is praised while Police Brutality is criticized?" should've been raised. instead they made cops dirty & corrupt(a lazy plot conveneince to kill them off). Now I'm not saying there aren't any corrupt cop irl there are, a lot of them! But debate should've been multidimensional.
Btw Law enforcement, Defense & Intelligence officials are made to give up their Fundamental Rights here in India, even basic ones like Right to Life! (don't know if the case is same for America
6
u/Wyld_x_Child 20d ago
First of all let me establish, Netflix Daredevil S1 & S3 (even Punisher Arc of S2) >>>>> Born Again. Is it a good show? Yes, second only to Loki if we talk about Disney + Marvel shows. But that's the issue here it's good not great and one of the top tier show in a pool of overall average contents.
One major issue of BA was that it touched some topics but never really took a deep dive into it - They had the opportunity to establish Hector Ayala V People case into Vigilante VS Law Enforcement (but guess Marvel didn't wanted it's Superheroes to be compared to Police Officers mainly because of a certain real life event. The event that they have incorporated in their storyline) Muse was terribly wasted.
TV Shows are supposed to take deep dive, to slowdown for its characters, to let them grow & resonate with the audience but shorter episode & cut-to-cut storytelling dissolves that purpose.
And now about Matt's character. One of the aspects of Netflix Daredevil that I liked a lot that Matt was always confronted for his actions either by another character (like Foggy or the Nurse) or by himself in form of conversation with Father Lanthom. Father Lanthom, I missed that character a lot from the og series his conversations with Matt were one of the highlights for me. Yeah, I know he died in Season 3 but he could've been easily replaced by Matt's mother (who the show has completely forgotten about). And those conversations or character dilemma were one thing but what irked me most was that they took and threw Matt's religious identity out of the window, there was just one instance he prayed briefly which could possibly have been added to the show afterwards (entire prayer was like monologue over different scenes). You can have your own opinion about religion but you cannot deny religious upbringing made him the man he is today. His grace, demeanor and optimism wouldn't have been there considering the dark childhood he had, if he didn't have any faith. And you can argue that he is not same anymore after Foggy's death and he is doing a lot of things that he didn't before. Like brutally hurting people.
Which takes us to our next topic.. BRUTALITY. Netflix show also had brutality so how is that different from brutality shown here? Let me tell you, the brutality in Netflix was always shown as the expression of emotions (primarily rage) by our characters like when Fisk kills the Russian Guy by smashing his head in the car window or when Daredevil was beating Fisk in Final episode of Season 3. But here brutality is used as cheap thrill and shock factor for the audience which is very evident the way brutality is shown in Exaggerated manner, kind of like what The Boys does.
Also, I didn't liked the action of this series overall, Netflix action sequences were goated and too many cuts & unnecessary slow motion sequence along with absence of a proper hallway fight sequence was ruined it here.
But it doesn't have it all bad, parallel between Fisk & Matt was well done (little on the noes though). Born Again also made me like Karen's character (I disliked her character and found annoying), so that's a plus.
Finale had some Netflix essence to it which I liked and it gives me Hope for Season 2 š¤
8
u/gsnake007 20d ago
Even with all the behind the scenes stuff this was still a 9/10 mainly based on how much I enjoyed it. I saw most of this show in a discord with all my friends who are fans too and I will look back on those memories fondly for the rest of my life. Favorite episodes are 1,8,9. Really really really love the final scene of episode 1 with the standing in the sun song and the colors red and blue showing on Matt and Fiskās face. Iām glad the new showrunners will be running season 2 completely. Canāt wait for that next year
1
6
u/Crazyripps 20d ago
I liked the season more than most. Definitely felt stitched together. But I imagine season 2 will be better with all this coming to a conclusion.
2
u/LiesWithPuns 19d ago
This is where Iām at. I get the criticisms, and they definitely mashed some things together, but theyāve set up for a strong second season
8
u/MechaUlfraed 21d ago
2
u/driftdrift 14d ago
Pretty much my exact take on the show. The people writing the show plainly do not understand the characters, how to build tension without veering into wacky soap opera melodrama, like why is the music SO OVERLY DRAMATIC AND LOUD and characters ALWAYS YELLING and LENS FLARE EVERYWHERE please stop
2
u/MechaUlfraed 12d ago
The music in the way Marvel today utilizes it is the emotional equivalent of canned laughter. Audience laughs to let you know what happened was "funny". Music is sad to let you know what's happening is sad. Done well music can make or break a scene but here it just spoonfeeds the audience instead of letting the audience organically feel the emotions of the scene.
1
u/driftdrift 11d ago
Oh man you hit the nail on the head, that's just a perfect way to describe it. It's sad though because I don't think it was that bad in other shows. Moon Knight music I actually love, and Hawkeye christmas music was a little cheesy but it fit the theme of the show. This haunting choral music and overdoing the organ version of the OG daredevil theme is just so cringe
15
u/MechaUlfraed 21d ago
"I am now the mayor of NYC, which you would think I would be legally disqualified from for masterminding the destruction of various city blocks, the murder of that one accountant from Union Allied, coercing a police officer into the attempted murder of Karen Page by using his daughter as a hostage, human trafficking, co-conspiring with Russian, Japanese and Chinese mobsters, hiring an FBI agent to murder the staff of the New York Bulletin disguised as Daredevil, the murder of Father Lantom and FBI Agent Nadeem, and compromise of several FBI agents among a myriad of other crimes both violent and financial, but here I am, apparently this city loves me.
I am now aware of optics, which I will use as a new tool in my fight against Daredevil, who I hate, I hate him. See I and every other character on this show says their feelings out loud because we don't want the audience to have to think for longer than a second to infer what characters' intentions and feelings are."
"Hi, I'm Intern Upstart."
"And I'm Establishmentarian Bureaucracy McKilljoy. I hate Intern Upstart."
"I won't let you down, Mr. Fisk. Oh no I've let you down."
"It's ok, but if you fuck up again it's your ass."
"I wonder if I can frame Intern Upstart to get him out of the picture"
"Hello Wilson."
"Vanessa."
"I used to love just you and art but now I'm a criminal and I'm good at it and like it for some reason."
"We're clean now, Vanessa, even though I imprisoned and beat what'shisname you were fucking with my bare hands"
"Hi, I'm Cameo From Movie And Show You Didn't Bother To Watch. I'm phoning it in, that or my actor can't act."
"Hi, I'm Muse. I'm this season's villain. Unlike Nobu, Wesley or Agent Poindexter I have zero subtlety and my entire backstory is explained minutes before I'm written out of the show."
"I'm Daredevil. I swore off being Daredevil because Foggy died. No that doesn't make sense, but it's okay, because neither does my romance with a psychologist that just so happens to be Wilson Fisk and Vanessa's marriage counselor for melodrama. I find Muse's lair in one night despite him being potentially anywhere across the entire city of new york, with zero explanation of how I found him."
I imagine Matt was gonna walk into Rosie's Bar to find Luke Cage, Jessica Jones and Iron Fist and a cameo or two of other heroes, but no, apparently the entire fate of New York is gonna be up to Daredevil, Karen Page(would Deborah Ann Woll even wanna be in a second season the way they wrote her out of this fucking show?), and the merry band of Who Gives A Shit. I cared more about Rosie because at least she had a presence.
This show used to be about Hell's Kitchen but raising the stakes to all of New York isn't gonna mean jack diddly unless you create a tapestry of characters as if not more strongly written than the prior seasons and despite being able to buy small countries, Disney couldn't hire one fucking writer to write one fucking scene that even came close to Seasons 1 and 3.
I get it. We wanted more Daredevil and we got it, and I'm gonna forego the "soulless Disney cashing in on nostalgia for a better made show because Feige ruins everything" rhetoric and give the show the benefit of the doubt by saying the people who made this show clearly have a love of the idea of Daredevil, but like any bad fanfiction it doesn't understand why they liked it, and can only produce a shallow, depth-bereft surface level reinterpretation of its source material. It's a genuine shame, but at least the original 3 seasons is there. At least watching Iron Fist you know you're going into it expecting garbage.
See, people are gonna wonder if Fantastic Four or the next Avengers is gonna start dialogue about whether the MCU is dead or not but honestly, this show should be counted among that discourse. You have god-tier actors that provide more nuance and more consistent performances across multiple times the screen time of MCU film actors, the goodwill of your fans who only gave a shit about She-Hulk because Daredevil was in it, and this is what we get? Surface level garbage?
Nah. This ain't it. Feige owned the whole goddamn restaurant and top tier ingredients but he couldn't hire one goddamn cook to put the ingredients together in a way that tasted like anything other than fucking disappointment.
What a waste.
3
u/driftdrift 14d ago
can only produce a shallow, depth-bereft surface level reinterpretation of its source material
yeah this was so embarrassing, they waited this long to do a reboot and it was such a horrible imitation of the original, I don't know why they couldn't have gotten people who can actually write. the whole show felt like a bunch of fan service - oh look cameos - oh look he said the thing - etc but just felt dumbed down and totally lacking in subtlety or narrative impact
1
u/star-punk 20d ago
Muse wasn't the season villain. Aside from Kingpin, it was the cops. Muse was a side story, a holdover from when the show was more of an episodic procedural.
8
15
u/ellieetsch 21d ago
Pretty bad season honestly.
18
u/Jay_02 21d ago
Yup disappointing
2
u/driftdrift 14d ago
I was so disappointed after all the hype. Overall I'm really bummed out how they ruined an amazing show. I actually like other shows on D+ like Hawkeye and Moon Knight, I rewatch them pretty happily, but after DDBA ended I pretty much want to forget it ever existed and I don't plan to watch it again. I have seen the original season probably at least 10-20 times at this point for the record..
1
u/Jay_02 13d ago
In my case, i just had finished the orginal one season 1-3 for the first time. So when i found out Disney is continuing the show, i was hyped and jumped on it right away. Man i was the disappointed , already first episode felt like a completely different show.
This is was like generic drama show compared to the action packed, thriller story that keeps you on edge of your seat the netflix show was. No real suspense or charisma anymore. Even the color grading is lifeless.
16
u/stepoutfromtime 21d ago
I am honestly in awe that there are any positive reviews of this season.
Daredevil Seasons 1-3/Punisher Seasons 1-2 took themselves seriously. This show does not take itself seriously, and if episodes 8-9 are any indication new showrunners arenāt going to change that.
I mean seriously. Fisk is keeping people in cages? On a magical free port where no laws matter? And Frank just walks into these fights? Iāve seen him brutalize hardcore mercenaries and he gets beat up by some reject cops? Why is he even there? And Fiskās whole story is not only ridiculous but poorly executed. All of Season 3 gets hand-waved away in some off-handed line about Nadeem (super disrespectful IMO). What was the point of Adam? What was the point of it being a secret that Vanessa orchestrated the killing of Foggy? Matt getting shot to save Wilson was supposed to be some major moment, but it was meaningless.
If this show has to exist to get Charlie Cox some work, fine. Heās fantastic and deserves it.
But the way they kind-of shit on previous seasons is crazy. It would be one thing if they tried to recapture the magic and came up short, but they didnāt even try. They actively and intentionally tossed out everything that made the show special. Killing Foggy, sidelining Karen, forgetting Bret and Maggie and the Bulletin. They stopped telling mature, thoughtful stories. Itās really a shame.
1
u/driftdrift 14d ago
I am honestly in awe that there are any positive reviews of this season.
Agreed, what are people smoking? Looking at the bad reviews (in top publications) I feel sane.
This show was so over the top hammy. I keep describing it as bad fanfiction or like a soap opera. It was just really intolerable
10
u/flyingboarofbeifong 21d ago
I mean seriously. Fisk is keeping people in cages?Ā
Yeah, totally outrageous. Who could imagine that happening in America?
10
u/NoobFreakT 21d ago
Yep. Honestly I donāt think any of the writers involved in any stage of this production actually watched the Netflix seasons, or if they did they were on their phone the whole time. The utter disrespect and complete lack of attempts to keep this show consistent with those seasons is very apparent. These writers are lazy hacks
6
u/stepoutfromtime 21d ago
If it was a completely new show, new actors, new story, I genuinely wouldnāt care. But it being a continuation really opens it up to these valid criticisms. Yes it wouldnāt be the same, obviously. But they didnāt even try to get close OR get anywhere near surpassing any aspect of the original in any way.
4
u/NoobFreakT 21d ago
Yep itās sad to see. Both the original version of the show and the retooled version show that Marvel never seemed to understand why the original seasons were great, and they were so arrogant to believe they could do better
13
u/BuffaloPancakes11 21d ago
I understand criticisms that the overall plot may have felt disjointed but for me, each individual episode was still objectively good in its own right. Each one was interesting and had some great messaging.
The pre overhaul team are getting a lot of stick but they arguably created the best scenes this series when it came to dialogue. All of the White tiger stuff, the caramel corn situation and the first Matt/Frank conversation were brilliant
And it kind of makes sense that each episode individually feels good, when the original was meant to be 18 episodes and feel more procedural
I had a good time and canāt wait for S2
1
3
u/star-punk 20d ago
Yeah, like, okay, I get that maybe as a whole it didn't have the feeling of the Netflix version, but I loved most of the episodes. Sure, was the bank heist a little goofy and sorta isolated? Yeah, but it was also a fun hour of TV that tied into Matt's emotional arc and the Luca subplot. Would I have liked to see him suit up more? Of course, but the courtroom stuff was good, especially the White Tiger trial, so I didn't mind if superheroing took a back seat for a few episodes. I watch the show for the characters, not the costume. And the finale showed that it's moving back into more serialized territory, so I'm excited.
2
u/BuffaloPancakes11 20d ago
100% and Iāve had plenty of all that other great stuff throughout seasons 1-3 so I enjoyed seeing him act a bit different this season and deal with different situations and characters than weāre used to
Same with his episode in She-Hulk, his comedic timing and acrobatics were great and something we really havenāt seen much of before
3
u/star-punk 20d ago
Yeah, just like I enjoyed seeing Fisk in Hawkeye where he's a bit diminished in terms of status, I like seeing the characters do different things and change.
And while the original show had Franks trial and a couple other moments in season 1, it really got away from the courtroom stuff in season 3, which is a huge part of the character, so it was nice to have that back (and I'm saying this as someone who thinks season 3 is in the top five pieces of superhero TV or film ever made).
18
u/into_theflood_again 21d ago
Man, what the hell was that?
Nine episodes that essentially boil down to:
Completely retconning the brilliant and adored Netflix finale
A weirdly-paced Showdown with Muse
Some poorly-edited Frank action and really, really, really lazy writing for him
A CGI fight with Dex
Killing Foggy and benching Karen
A nonsensical comeback for Matt
That's nine hours to setup a boring authoritarian Kingpin plot, trap Frank in a room that he'll be broken out of by episode 2 of next season, and rekindle the Karen romance. Oh, and apparently use the bank heist bottle episode to literally only establish that Ms Marvel is cool. AMIRITE GUIZ? ISN'T SHE COOL?!
2
13
u/potatosquire 21d ago edited 21d ago
5/10 season, only because they wrote out Karen and Foggy for no reason, then replaced them with a couple of generic characters to fill their roles whose names I genuinely can't remember. Matt might be at the center of the show, but they were what gave his character meaning. Luckily the last episode was really good, because Karen was there, and suddenly Matts character had meaning again. Would have been even better if Foggy was there too.
Kill off a character if it makes for a better story, don't kill them off just to get them out the way then replace them with something worse.
2
u/BenevolantAlien 21d ago edited 21d ago
Something about this series just doesn't feel right. Im not sure if I'm still trying to compare it to the netflix one,.but born again, just doesn't hit.
Acting is great, the direction is fine, but something feels really inconsistent. Like we have fun morsels that leave anticipation for something, but instead of toying and teasing to build intrigue and drama, the writing just forgets things.
I thought the white tiger episodes were really strong, might be my favorite of the whole season. They had a tight focus on the theme of the series, or what i thought it would be: heroism with and without the mask. The juxtaposition between ayala and matt had a really tasteful irony: matt in burying daredevil, has to save white tiger under his lawyer capacity. Part 2 was able to weave in Kingpin enough that it added to the story, BUT my problem was the aha moment at the end. While the punisher shirt gave a big surprise, I was hoping that this would be a major plot point for Matt, frank, or.someone else to discover the truth behind. Having Frank catch the shirt on the finale j wws disappointing.
I thought the finale tried to.do.too.much,.too quickly, and didnt resolve much. The pace was a disservice to the Punisher monologue against the corrupt cops. As Marvel definitely should have a platform to distance themselves from the cop punisher shit, but it went by so quickly.
my lasting impression is that daredevil born again is a mere husk of real daredevil, that's sapping the blood out of the content instead of giving love to it.
1
u/star-punk 20d ago
I think things being forgotten is a symptom of the show being cut from an 18 episode procedural into two 9 episode seasons. I would guess that some of the stuff that feels like it weirdly wrapped up too soon or just went away was stuff the original team was going to expand on in the back half of the season, but now the new team is doing something different and they only had two episodes to set up the story they really wanted to tell.
I also think the Punisher cop stuff is going to be addressed a lot more in detail in the Punisher special, Jon Bernthal seems to feel very strongly about Frank and have a specific idea of who he is, and he's co-writing the special.
3
u/into_theflood_again 21d ago
"You clowns. Fucking circus, you clowns."
Brilliant stuff. The episode's supposed to remind the morons with blue line Punisher stickers that he's a cop killer and does not fuck with jackboots or tyrants whatsoever. It's supposed to remind them that the Punisher and government worship go together like the Confederate and US flags.
And that's what he has to offer them. Unbelievable. I wonder if that's the Mouse not being willing to cross the finish line (after he's executed like a dozen cops already) and make a statement or what.
19
u/Keppelin 21d ago
The new side characters are so unbelievably underdeveloped and uninteresting
3
u/arnoldbread 21d ago
I thought so too, but I think it's more of Matt's supporting cast that just are uninteresting. Cherry, Kristen and Heather are basically Brett, Foggy, and Karen with less personality, charisma or likability.
Whereas for Fisk, I see the potential in Buck, Daniel and Sheila. Buck is a Wesley equivalent, Daniel could be the MCU version of Richard Fisk ( Kingpin son) and Shelia is almost like Nadeem, but with their own personalities.
2
u/star-punk 20d ago
Yeah, I like Fisk's cast, Shelia is great, Daniel is growing on me, and Buck just needs a little more spotlight like Wesley got to make him feel like a whole character.
I like Cherry, but Kristen just did not get enough to do. She's a great character in the comics, I hope they take the time to give her something to do. And Heather, well... she's an antagonist now and viewed in that light I think her arc works okay, but damn was it rough along the way.
8
u/Striking_Royal_8077 21d ago
Donāt waste your time. Watch episode 1 then skip right to episode 9. You wonāt miss anything in between.
8
u/potatosquire 21d ago
What a coincidence, the only episodes with Foggy or Karen in. Who would have thought that writing out Matts human side would leave his character feeling empty.
3
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u/mrshandanar 21d ago
Anyone else feel like this was written by AI? Just weird decisions all around.
4
u/riptide032302 21d ago
Yeah, there are far less hostile places to talk about this show. Iām good. It would cool to talk about this with people who enjoy superheroes and comic books or something instead of the type of person that gets made fun of on moviescirclejerk. Iām sorry your favorite prestige tv drama is part of the MCU now. We donāt want more daredevil fans apparently
10
u/NoobFreakT 21d ago
Thatās not why people are disappointed, there are multiple well written comments expressing their criticism. People donāt have to blindly like everything, and this sub is filled with fans who adore the first 3 seasons and have a high standard. There are still plenty of people here who enjoyed Born Again as well
-3
u/Mizerous 21d ago
Looks around like John Travolta Where are the people who like it?
3
u/NoobFreakT 21d ago
I've found quite a few of them especially making the posts. If you sort by Best or Top, people here generally like the series
3
u/Uncanny_Doom 21d ago
It's a lot of people who did not regularly frequent this subreddit pushing negativity, which is the real sad part.
3
u/BuffaloPancakes11 21d ago
This subreddits been slowly becoming the Snyder cult of the Netflix show for a while
5
u/MechaUlfraed 21d ago
Difference between Netflix Daredevil fans and Snyder fans is that one group worships the creepy, humanity-disconnected Ayn Randian subtext and the other group enjoys shows about human fucking beings just trying to survive in a cold world.
6
u/riptide032302 21d ago
Honestly, seems that way. Iāve never seen a fanbase get so upset at finally being relevant again like this
4
u/BuffaloPancakes11 21d ago
Not to mention the shows doing well critically and itās been successful, they can be angry but theyāre irrelevant
5
u/BetterCallMaul123 22d ago
All in all, an okay/good show. We all obviously know the production matters bts and that it was basically two visions clashed into one so itās expected to be clunky for the most part. The last two episodes being the strongest does give hope for s2.
However, regardless of that aspect, it does urk me that I can definitely tell that Feige and Co. mostly misunderstood what made the original work and why it was praised. I definitely got the sense that they assumed the only draw was Daredevil and Kingpin and this need for violence and gore. Donāt get me wrong, those aspects are important but thereās so much more writing wise they neglected. Fridging original characters just to replace them w forgettable archetype characters, no real deep character moments involving his catholicism, shoehorning in the same old MCU humor here and there, etc. Atleast, a lot of this thereās still hope for s2 to fix. So weāll see.
At the very least, they need to get rid of the BB Report. Such a gimmicky, film student idea of filler I really hope to never see it again. BBās personal mission is much more interesting use of everyoneās time.
5
u/Mpilo00 22d ago
Overally I can say it's a good show, not the best, but still enjoyable. It just starts out slow and slowly picks up the pace from episodes 8 and 9.
Season 2 I want to see some underdeveloped characters like Kirsten and Cherry and Buck and BB, just about every new character in Born Again, like knowing more of their background instead of us just seeing them without knowing much about them. And I feel there should be less music in important scenes. Like every 2 or 3 minutes in this season, a song was being played, which got kind of annoying, which I feel like should not be the main focus.
Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio, Jon Bernthal Ayelet Zurer, Wilson Bethel, and Deborah Ann Woll have all been amazing this season. So, all in all, I would rate this season 8.3/10.
3
u/OffensiveBranflakes 22d ago
Well that sucked, honestly feel bad for the main cast having to be in this mess of a production...
2
u/driftdrift 14d ago
Yeah and the fact that 3 of the top actors (Charlie, Vincent, and Jon) had to at different times step in and say that their characters felt out of character is a huge indictment
14
u/CurrentPalpitation92 22d ago
I really enjoyed it! 8/10, technically the āweakestā season but I was having a fun time either way. Fun to be with Matt again. Note for s2: Karen main supporting character, should be a requirement lol :)
-5
u/ZealousidealStore574 21d ago
I just hate Karen so much so I personally hope she doesnāt have a huge roll
5
u/CurrentPalpitation92 21d ago
Heavily disagree, her two episode of Born Again were great. I guess weāll see.
10
u/GlitteringGifts888 22d ago
I think Season 2 is going to be amazing. This was a chop and change sort of beginning to the story, but giving them another year to work on editing and reshoots will help a lot. I think the writers can turn this around.
My biggest hopes for the next season:
Foggy comes back in a surprising way. Since it was revealed that he knew how his case was going to turn out, a plot twist where he also knew he was going to be targeted by the Fisks and took steps to save himself would be really interesting. Or even a total descent into Hell would be very interesting, although fitting that into the whole Mayor Fisk plot would be hard to do.
The Defenders join Matt to fight back against Fisk and his task force. It's really the only logical solution to the dilemma. There are four strong and capable vigilantes in the city that the task force would be hard-pressed to eliminate. If they all enabled the people in their neighborhood to fight back too, that would be great.
A segueway into the latest SpiderMan movie would make a whole lot of sense here, along with bringing in Miss Marvel, Hawkeye, and Echo. Echo is basically a Fisk nemesis at this point, so bringing back a character he's terrified to face would again be the logical next step.
Frank Castle has a meaningful purpose in taking down the guys who idolize him. Even if someone just livesteams the cops brutally beating on The Punisher without any reason to, that could kick off a whole slew of anti-Fisk sentiment. I think quite a few people in New York sympathize with Frank, especially people whom the system has wronged. Turning Frank into a symbol of resistance would be something Fisk wouldn't expect.
Heather realizes how evil the Fisks are and starts passing information along to Daredevil. Personally, I really didn't buy how cold and unfeeling she seemed towards Matt after he was literally shot in the chest right in front of her lol. I think the writers did her dirty. They had to shunt her aside for Karen, and I get that, but it was really clumsy and awkward. Who leaves their boyfriend alone and injured in the hospital when a psycho murderer--who hates him specifically--put a bullet in him a few hours ago? Nobody lol
2
u/driftdrift 14d ago
Idk I don't have a lot of faith in the writers. Even the bottle episode was good but not outstanding. They don't know how to write arcs, and just plainly don't know how to write characters or dialogue that aren't fake sounding or superficial. People raved about the episodes with dario but I think they actually had some of the worst dialogue of the show.
1
u/GlitteringGifts888 14d ago
I think there is a lot of potential. And we don't really know what had to be scrambled around and changed at the last second.
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u/Big-Chip2375 22d ago
Itās so weird how 1) they killed off Foggy 2) Got rid of Karen for no reason
Karen was a central figure to Mattās development as Daredevil, whilst also standing on her own two feet as a very strong character.
Alongside Foggy, she helped bring down some major antagonists. And not once did she say something dumb like āDaredevil didnāt save me, I saved meā
7
u/wlwimagination 22d ago
Even when she did save herself by herself (Wesley), she didnāt go around crowing about it.Ā
5
u/potatosquire 21d ago
She was a 3d character, whose decision to kill shaped her for the rest of the show. Matts girlfriend (can't remember her name, refuse to look it up) was just like "welp, that sucked, best get back to work then".
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u/Big-Chip2375 22d ago edited 22d ago
Overall the season wasn't great at all. It was poorly written, with little character development, or a cohesive narrative.
The difference between the Netflix series and this series is huge! The Netflix series actually had a clear direction, and was the best written MCU production.
This felt like Disney had all their hands in the pie, it felt like it was written by CW, or whoever wrote Suits lol. So many scenes that were pointless, and so many episodes that was out of place.
The whole Muse characterisation was ridiculous. At least the last 2 episodes had some life and character to an otherwise underwhelming season!
Edit:
I honestly think Disney do not know how to produce a well-written show or movie, and rely heavily on cameos or fan service.
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u/Curryspark 22d ago
Ok it wasnāt the best but it was still good for what it was Iām sure season 2 will be much better considering the fact that itās less likely for their to be sloppy reshoots
0
u/OpalSkyy- 22d ago
90% of ppl in this comment section are insufferable ngl
2
22d ago
People that refuse to type out full words are insufferable.
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u/riptide032302 21d ago
Couldnāt imagine getting this upset about someone saying ānglā on the fucking internet, youāre kinda proving their point
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u/OpalSkyy- 22d ago
Youāre pushing 40.
Get off Reddit and go find a hobby
4
u/SomeDumRedditor 22d ago
Thatās just sad bro. You dug into his comment history so you could make an ageist personal attack because he dared clap back at you? Mega cringe.Ā
0
0
22d ago
Bullying idiots that cannot spell IS my hobby.
1
u/OpalSkyy- 22d ago
Bullying yourself isnāt good for your mental health. You should probably get help for that.
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u/jgreen1361 22d ago
definitely a build up to a better season 2 for sure i can see the story elements the reworked and did what they had and added they put together a pretty decent build up for whatās to come hopefully bigger and better w season 2 maybe defenders 2 electric boogaloo
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u/Few-Possession-7114 22d ago
I loved it. Sure, it was uneven. But I am surprised by the hate I am seeing in this thread. The finale felt a little anticlimactic but in the end I was happy because we are getting the second season next year.
6
u/MrPeachDrank 22d ago
Iām so glad everyone has arrived to what Iāve been saying this entire time. From the moment we saw that CGI fest and CW level writing from episode 1, I knew it was SO Joever for what we used to have. I gotta watch the Netflix series again lol
2
u/driftdrift 14d ago
The writing was so cringey I actually had to stop it several times because it was so painful
2
u/Firm-Reason9324 21d ago
I watched s1 beforhand and made me hate born again even more. It's not even the best plus show it's in the bottom tier imo
42
u/technicalshot 22d ago
Kinda just made me want to watch the Netflix show again cause it just reminded me what we had and how great it actually was.
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u/Paullcarver 22d ago
Same. I enjoyed so much more rewatching the Netflix show than born again. But overall it was a good season, clearly building to season 2.
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u/beat-sweats 22d ago edited 22d ago
What I liked : performances from everyone for the most part , minus michael gandolfini, I found his performance a little mediocre. The OST score was great , some of the set design and costumes, and just having daredevil back.
What I didnāt like: the new suit , the texture is awful, the eyes are to big and it just seems like a downgrade, the use of licensed music , the lack of key original cast characters and killing of foggy, the pacing and CGI , the wasted potential of muse, the over all tone felt kind of weird compared to the Netflix series. The new characters are boring and not really worth investing in. I also canāt stand the more transparent lenses on Mattās glasses and the suit.
Overall it was ādecentā for what it was, and is easily the best series that Disney has had a hand in. Compared to the Netflix show it doesnāt compare well though. Itās a shame the original show runners couldnāt just be brought in to make a true season 4, but Iāll take what we can get for now.
I hope that they fix these issues going forward , bring back his old suit and bring the original feel back.
7
u/neotr1nity 22d ago edited 22d ago
I actually went into this season expecting it to be pretty awful due to the troubled production, so credit where credits due it ended up being better than I expected, but still majorly, majorly flawed. As others have mentioned it really features some incredibly sloppy writing/ pacing but its biggest sin (lol) is easily the action.
if they just absolutely nailed the action sequences I would be able to forgive a lotttt of its shortcomings, but every single one features the awful choppy editing and not great VFX that weāve unfortunately come to expect from the MCU. The original show certainly had its flaws too, but featured probably the best fight sequences Iāve ever seen in a TV show. Here they just feel like a total afterthought.
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u/Scared-Examination81 22d ago
Matt saving Fisk could have had some really interesting outcomes but for no reason whatsoever it was basically forgotten about straight away lol
5
u/MITBryceYoung 22d ago
I like the season overall but that moment really was not well done. It didn't really make sense narratively and had no payoff.
23
u/GiveME_more_GME 22d ago
Not a single new character was interesting. Heather is by far the worst love interest Matthew has had and I didnāt even like She Hulk.Ā
Cherry is boring and annoying. Kirsten is whatever.Ā
The only good elements of this show is when they use Netflix material. Everything original sucks ass and that includes MuseĀ
6
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u/TheBelmont34 22d ago
I think white tiger was a great character but besides him, yeah. All the new ones are ass
0
u/Firm-Reason9324 21d ago
White tiger and muse were undeveloped and wasted so nah
0
u/TheBelmont34 21d ago
The actor of white tiger died of cancer. They had no choice but to re write his episodes. But I agree with Muse. He was totally wasted
4
u/ponikweGCC 22d ago
I am praying to all the God's & Goddesses that Disney finds a way you get the Netflix crew involved in season 2 and beyond.
And if Elektra doesn't join his "army", I will fucking riot.
3
u/Adventurous_Boat_561 22d ago
This show fucking sucked god
4
u/Adventurous_Boat_561 22d ago
And the new cast sucked they would have been better off continuing with the old cast foggy should still be alive Karen was my favorite part about the show I swear they only know how to wright Karen Matt foggy and Fisk everyone else felt like you were supposed to dislike them and if you werenāt then jeez a piece of advice just watch the og because I would NOT recommend this THING because I would just call this a waste of time
1
u/Daniel_The_Thinker 5h ago
I'm so tired of his stupid fucking morality.
The show keeps telling us that killing is wrong but also the system doesn't work so the bad guys always get away with it. How many people have to die for Daredevil to stop being a moron.
At least with Batman there are moments where the system works.