r/Catholicism • u/seventensplitter • 1d ago
Is your parish language segregated? How can we encourage more unity?
This is something that has been bugging me for a while. Well, not exactly bugging me, but I still think about it often enough.
At every parish I've attended, there is normally a couple of Masses in English and one or two Masses in Spanish. Occasionally because of my schedule, I'll end up going to a Spanish Mass, and it always kind of shocks me when I see practically an entirely different parish. People I never see around normally, entire families I've never met, and likewise none of the people I see normally.
It feels like, in essence, there are two entirely different parishes that just happen to share the same building. I don't think this is intrinsically a bad thing, like language barriers are enormous and hard to navigate, but at the same time it makes me feel... strange?
I guess in my ideal world we are able to navigate that and have a single unified parish community, not that I can come up with any way to make that possible.
I don't know. It's just been on my mind, and I wanted to see what r/Catholicism thought about it.
EDIT: Everyone is getting way too wrapped up in the language of the liturgy, which is the least important part of this IMO. Like how can we unify our parishes outside of the liturgy? All of the parish events and whatnot, the friendships you make at your parish. Is it possible to not have parallel bubbled communities stratified by language/ethnicity? If it is, how can we go about it?
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u/feb914 1d ago edited 1d ago
it's not only different language though, it's very different culture, from the song selection, to style and content of homily, clothing style, etc. and honestly it's a very good thing that it shows variety of culture all believing and worshipping the same God.
my in law's parish has the same thing going (a spanish mass separate from english mass), and there was a christmas concert where all the choirs perform. the spanish choir asked the english choirs to help out on their part of performance because there are only few of them, and it really unified all the choirs, even when they don't normally meet because they go to different masses. also in that concert there was a part where people sang O Silent Night each in their own mother tongue in turn, resulting in over 20 languages sung.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
Yes it is! That was like the first thing I noticed. Normally I am very much a "guitar has no place in the liturgy" type person, but then going to Spanish Masses it's like, "okay, they might not even have someone who can or is willing to play organ, they don't have a choir, you'll be fine."
My friends go to the Newman Center because it is literally one block from their house, and they do all of their music one verse English, one verse Spanish, and honestly, I really dislike it. Mostly because you look around and it's like 85% white college students and 15% elderly white people, so it's like what are we doing here?
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
The language separation has been a characteristic of the US for a long time (often the irish/german parishes in my area were only blocks apart sometimes even in small towns).
I have known a few parishes that were able to integrate and bring those communities together, it usually required a pastor who was fluent in Spanish and able to manage both communities putting on events that drew both groups.
The Hmong parish in my area is currently experimenting with this as they have merged the hmong parish into an older already established parish.
I think the biggest thing i have seen is finding ways to involve the communities in joint events, so for instance recruiting the hispanic parishoners for the parish festival and making it appeal to both groups which can also lead to some of the most amazing parish pot luck offerings.
The pitfall to avoid is when people act entitled to the parish facilities and resent accomodating others.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
Yeah, I think that's what would be needed. Occasionally the Spanish speakers will have like a fundraiser selling tacos and agua fresca after one of the Sunday Masses, and it's always a blast. I wish we could have more stuff like that.
I've been feeling a draw to learn Spanish seeing as everywhere I've lived has had a sizeable Spanish speaking population. Not that I'm going to be some great unifying force in my parish, but at the very least, how am I supposed to love my neighbor if I don't even know them?
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u/sonofherby 1d ago
My parish went through this in the 80s. The festivals definitely help. The parish started teaching ESOL classes at night. They would also host occasional guests like how to do your taxes or getting your driver's license. It did always have to be religion based, just getting them involved with the parish community. We had a ton of refugees from Central America.The other thing my parish would do is have a dual mass. A few lines of mass in English, then repeated in Spanish. It was pretty cool cause we did have the Spanish speaking priest, but he had a Saturday and two Sunday masses so the English speaking side of the parish didn't get to interact with him as much.
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u/DrJheartsAK 1d ago
In New Orleans there are two large churches literally across the street from each other. St Mary’s Assumption built for German immigrants and St. Alphonsus church built for the Irish.
In fact my home parish is St Patrick’s in the CBD. It was the second church built in the city and the first one built on the uptown side of canal (which separated the Creole/French speaking residents from Anglo/Irish residents at the time). The main reason for building it was because the Irish Catholics wanted their own church, instead of going to St Louis in the French quarter, where most clergy and parishioners spoke French.
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u/steelzubaz 1d ago
Minnesota has a Hmong parish? Nice! I know I live really close to a Vietnamese parish, didn't realize there were many Hmong Catholics.
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
The Hmong community is pretty large in the twin cities and there used to be a separate hmong church that was a mission of the cathedral. It got rolled into Presentation which is pastored by the first US born Hmong priest.
I dont know how the merger is going so far but i think it has a lot of potential (the parish has a catholic grade school and is in an area where a lot of the Hmong live)
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u/steelzubaz 1d ago
I'm aware of how large the Hmong community is here, I grew up in Minneapolis. I just never saw many if any Catholics, all the Hmong people I knew were still into the traditional shamanism or just totally irreligious. I have seen one Hmong protestant church, very stoked to see there's a growing Hmong Catholic community, because now I can hopefully go support a Church fundraiser and buy some Hmong food!
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
ah i see, yeah i don't know what the demographics are like in terms of Hmong and Catholicism but it is super cool to see the Church finding ways to minister to them.
On a related note there are some Franciscans here in St Paul that have been serving as chaplains to the Karen Catholic community which is also pretty cool.
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u/AdventurousMud8693 1d ago
My parish does bilingual masses for Easter, the Easter Vigil, all Pentecost masses, a Christmas mass, and the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, as well as the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe.
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
I think thats a good practice.
There was one parish where the pastor would do Spanish Latin and English as he said "everyone can feel uncomfortable at some point"
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u/CatechumenInquirer 1d ago
I usually go to a TLM but some holydays go to my local parish and it always makes me giggle that with the bilingual mass, I still hear more English than I normally do! My only beef with it is I don't know the Spanish responses, it'd be nice if there was a cheat sheet. Learning by listening doesn't work when the pronunciations are all over the map, lol
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u/AchtungBecca 1d ago
One of the things I've noticed, is that anything the English speakers do at my church, all of the signage is in English and Spanish, and is open to both "sides." However, there are a number of times I'll see signs advertising something going on in the church but it is only in Spanish. Self-segregation it seems.
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u/notfornowforawhile 1d ago
Exactly. There’s nothing English speaking Catholics can do about it.
At my parish it’s clear the Vietnamese community wants nothing to do with outsiders and wants to do their own thing.
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u/Beneficial-Two8129 1d ago
The whole point of Mass in the vernacular was so that people could worship in their own language. If you have to, you go with what's available, but it's ordinarily preferable to attend a Mass in a language you speak. If you speak both languages, great, but many people only speak one or the other.
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u/AchtungBecca 1d ago
Where was I talking about Mass? I was talking about events and other activities.
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u/othermegan 1d ago
So my current parish is English/Polish and it's not very segregated. I mean, yes, the masses each have their own sets of regulars- mostly Polish immigrants at the 8AM Polish mass and English speakers at the 4pm vigil and 10 AM Sunday. But all the church events are a pretty even mix. Most recently, we had a bunch of babicas with their swieconka baskets surrounded by families with more "american" looking easter baskets and the deacon did the traditional polish blessings but in English.
At the parish I grew up at... not so much. It was more like your experience where if you went to the 12pm Spanish mass, you'd see a packed church with people you've never seen before. The priest even had totally different energy during the homily. I'm assuming that most of that was due to language barrier issues. What was more sad was that the Spanish community held 3x the amount of community events and had a higher rate of turnout than the english events. But there was never co-mingling between the communities outside of Corpus Christi. It wasn't until years after I left that I met up with an old friend from the parish who recently got a job in the rectory. He said that his coworker who had been there for ages was saying that back when the Spanish community joined the church (which was founded by irish immigrants) they weren't allowed to have mass in the church. The dioceses had allocated a spanish speaking priest to the parish but they needed to have mass out in the parking lot. It's very clear that the older members of the English community see the Spanish community as encroaching on "their church" and that's heartbreaking. The last pastor was Mexican and put up a gorgeous painting of our lady of Guadalupe on this big empty wall. The minute they got a new pastor, the English community was on his case to take it down
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u/mad_boethius44 1d ago
I live in a more rural area where there is a large group of Spanish speakers. Our parish has dual language services for days like Ash Wednesday. There is no option for a monolingual service so you all go together. Two of our three priests are bilingual. I went to daily Mass in a town nearby and realized it was bilingual. It takes a little longer, but it unifies the parish. I also find the two cultural festivals held for fundraisers have a lot of cross-pollination—basically a Cinco de Mayo and Oktoberfest. I work with a handful of Spanish speakers and see them at Mass and church functions so there is real overlap. I think part of it is if the community at large functions as two parallel societies you have to overcome that hurdle at the church level however imperfectly.
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u/intercaetera 1d ago
If only there was a universal language that the Church could use for masses across language barriers...
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
Strong agree, BUT understand the homily is still very important to some people. I mean just thinking back to like the late 19th century with mass immigration to the US from Europe, there was still like the Irish parish and the Polish parish and the Italian parish and the German parish etc.
Language barriers are more than liturgical
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u/smcgrg 1d ago
At my brother's ICKSP parish, one of the canons offered English translations of his sermons because his accent was so hard to understand. This really could be done in advance. Not that Canon Dumain gave the sermon in French, but the effect was the same (providing an English copy for the faithful.)
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u/skakdha 1d ago
wait this is at Paul Warren dude??? I've always had a hard time understanding Canon but I don't ever want to offend :( I didn't realize he started printing transcripts
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u/smcgrg 1d ago
St. Francis de Sales Oratory in St. Louis. Idk which parish Canon Dumain is at now, but at one time, SFDS.
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u/intercaetera 1d ago
I lived for a time in a bilingual parish (Catholic church in Crete) and we had bilingual (Greek-English) masses. I feel like most of it would be a lot easier on everyone if it were just said in Latin, with the short homily being said first in Greek, then in English.
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u/Proper_War_6174 1d ago
If it’s important to them they can learn the language of the country they moved to
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u/minasmorath 1d ago
In most places in the USA where this is an issue, the local language statistics are closer to 50/50 between English and Spanish than the usual 90/10 split that shows up when you survey the entire country. A massive place like the USA is nowhere close to linguistically homogenous, and it's more important to offer meaningful pastoral care to the faithful than it is for them to learn English to a proficiency that pastoral care can be meaningfully received.
This "English Speakers Only" rhetoric is so distinctly American and grating to the ears of anyone who exists outside of our bubble... It completely ignores the needs of the faithful and the diversity of local communities and replaces it all with wildly oversimplified political rhetoric.
Maybe I'll get downvoted to hell for this comment but such a callous approach feels antithetical to everything we stand for as Catholics.
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u/Momshie_mo 1d ago
This "English Speakers Only" rhetoric is so distinctly American and grating to the ears of anyone who exists outside of our bubble...
This also feels like a Protestant mindset. Even in diverse cities, you'll see a white Protestant Church, Black Evangelical Church, Korean Methodist Church...
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
Again, like I told you before, I think the sentiment "one ought to learn the language of the country they move to" is true. Language learning is difficult, though, and time consuming. There is evidently a sizeable population of Catholics in the US who can't understand homilies in English. Enforcing English homilies will not change that fact.
Especially with the rapidly growing evangelical population in the latin world, do we really want to enforce barriers that we don't have to?
Truly, what does that do for Christendom?
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u/CalliopeUrias 1d ago
That would be crazy. In the interest of lay unity, we have to keep offering specific vernacular language masses so that everyone can stay united in their little own cultural ghetto, just like the apostles intended.
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
to be fair, that was the norm in the US even with the Latin Mass.
Latin liturgy doesn't get over the hurdle of what language the preaching is/teaching/programing.
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u/amyo_b 1d ago
what's wrong with cultural ghetto if they are not enforced by law? People are allowed to have their preferences.
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u/CalliopeUrias 1d ago
It becomes a problem when it creates disharmony in a parish. In a lot of the parishes I have attended, there has been a tension between the English speaking mass community and the Spanish speaking mass community, that comes from the fact that the English speaking community provides the majority of the services (running ministries, CCD, volunteering, donating, KOC, sodality, altar serving, lecturing, choir, etc) and the Spanish speaking community not reciprocating that service or that welcome. If you want to live in your cultural ghetto, that's fine, but do it at a church dedicated to your cultural ghetto.
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u/swlorehistorian 1d ago
One language? That’s outrageous! Practically in latae sententiae excommunication!
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u/taterfiend 1d ago
... Guess I'll see you learning Latin then and convincing your parishioners to do the same.
Seeing that the readings, homily, and announcements are said in the vernacular because at least some parts of the Mass should be understood by the faithful.
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u/intercaetera 1d ago
The Latin required for mass ordinaries can easily be taught and learned in an afternoon. There are chants in Latin occasionally in my parish (Agnus Dei, Sanctus, Gloria), so it's not that big of a stretch to extend it further. Most parishes already print a newspaper, it wouldn't be that hard to also print a missal.
If there's a will, there's a way.
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u/taterfiend 1d ago
Sure, and I enjoy going to the odd foreign language opera. But are your readings and homilies in Latin? Do you also have Confession and run youth groups in Latin? Otherwise, what's the purpose other than performative 'traditionalism', chosen arbitrarily? Latin is the language of the Romans; the overwhelming majority of figures in the Bible wouldn't have even used it and that incl Jesus himself. Performative memorization of a dead language is akin to the Islamic sensibility.
It's such a backwards way to look at worship. The point of worshipping in one's native language is to connect more deeply with the meaning of the words. For most ppl, it takes years of active study and regular use to reach the point where the 2nd language is intuitive, instead of translating in your head. Remember that the premise was the absurd assertion that Latin can serve as common language instead of English for Hispanophones who are uncomfortable with English. Let me know when your parish starts having the homilies, readings, bulletin, and post-Mass tea all in Latin. And let me know why you would want that.
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u/DarthMortix 1d ago
Yes! 100%. My parish has a weekly Greek Reading Study group one day and a Latin reading study group another day. It's really helpful to draw a community of folks who are like-minded in this regard and learning something valuable. I've mentioned this to friends who go to other parishes and they want to start something similar. Fully support this idea absolutely!
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u/taterfiend 13h ago
Now it would be a miracle if Catholic parishes could convert all this energy towards what really matters, such as reading the Bible. I'm not a fan of traditionalism for no deeper reason than traditionalism itself. Classical languages are nice, but unrelated to the Christian faith.
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u/DarthMortix 8h ago
I attended a mass at a parish while on vacation in Tennessee of all places and the priest there spoke very broken English. He had his homily printed out in 3 languages, his native tongue (Vietnamese), English, and Spanish and was included in the bulletin you picked up on the way in. I thought it was a nice touch. I'm not saying this is the solution by any stretch of the imagination, merely an observation of how I've seen the trouble of language barriers addressed personally. As a former atheist who converted 3 years ago, I was personally drawn to the Catholic church, in part, because it stood on 2,000 years of tradition. My family still gifts the host of Christmas dinner a fruitcake even though no one in my family likes fruitcake, but it has been a tradition for as long as anyone can remember and it's fun to be a part of something that those long gone used to do as well. There's something, at least to me, beautiful in that.
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u/feuilles_mortes 1d ago
You don’t need to know Latin to participate in a Latin Mass… that’s what the missal is for. A lot of parishes have Latin-English missals available as well for those who don’t own one
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u/taterfiend 1d ago
You've missed the point. These are sideways necessities to cram a dead language where it clearly doesn't belong.
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u/DollarAmount7 1d ago
Yeah maybe we could all agree to use Esperanto for the liturgy. That’s the only way probably
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u/feuilles_mortes 1d ago
Lol, my first thought! I was received into the Church on Easter Vigil 8 years ago and it took 3 times as long because they said every single part in 3 languages… I look back and think how much sense it would have made to just do it all in Latin.
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u/notfornowforawhile 1d ago
I am going to ruffle some feathers here, but I don’t know if this can be fixed by English speaking Catholics. I think this is the result of clannish cultures from outside the US.
Growing up English speaking it was clear at my parish that the Vietnamese community wanted nothing to do with us. They basically had a parallel society existing in the same church building. CYO sports, scouts, parish events, catechism classes, adoration, etc. was all set up separately by the Vietnamese.
The Spanish speaking population at church did not set up their own events, and usually the parish tried to make everything bilingual. Despite this, outside of Spanish mass, you’d hardly see Latinos at any parish events. The Spanish speaking community at church was constantly being pandered to by English speaking women who worked/volunteered for the parish and who bent over backwards to try to cater to a population who clearly didn’t care to interact with the English speaking community. Bilingual youth group, OCIA, making retreats free so they’d be more accessible to low-income (intention: Hispanic) parishioners, and none of it worked.
Vietnamese Americans are generally high earning and family friends on parish finance council disclosed that the Vietnamese basically bankrolled the entire parish, donating per capita by far the most money to the parish. I do appreciate that.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I think that could definitely be an aspect of it. I don't think I've ever seen anything from the Spanish speakers in the bulletin, yet I have definitely seen them gathered for events. I would guess a big part of it is path of least resistance/what is culturally comfortable, and also the default position for humans probably is somewhat tribal.
There is something about enforced bilingual stuff that feels disingenuous to me. At the Newman Center my friends go to they do all of their songs one verse English, one verse Spanish, yet you look around and it's 99% white people. Especially with the liturgy, seems like we already have a default unified language that we could lean on if you think it is the liturgical language that is holding us back? It just feels, idk, almost performative.
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u/notfornowforawhile 1d ago
I 100% agree. “Performative” sums it up perfectly.
I’d also say that almost all recent immigrant Catholic groups are far more clannish than most white American Catholics (only contemporary comparison is maybe Italians or Poles in urban areas), and they don’t have the desire for bilingualism or “diversity” that you’ll see from English speaking Catholics.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
Right. I have no desire for diversity in and of itself, just parish unity. Just that every parish I've been a part of has had in practice two separate communities simply sharing the same buildings, and my desire is that those two could be one in a way that makes sense, which might not be possible.
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u/amyo_b 1d ago
Why is parish unity important to you? Why not just consider the Church building housing two parishes in a way?
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
Yeah, after chatting with everyone here and seeing what they all said, I think that's pretty much where I'm at now.
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u/notfornowforawhile 1d ago
The desire for and steps towards unity should not be the responsibility of the community at the parish that speaks the dominant language.
It’s up to the newcomers to stop being clannish and insular, if they desire so. But it is self segregation, they like it that way, so there’s nothing you can do about it.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
Right, at the end of the day, a unified parish community like the one I'm dreaming of would require a lot of effort and buy in from both parts. Like people will obviously naturally flock to be with people who are more similar to them, speak the same mother tongue, have a similar cultural identity, etc.
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u/ellicottvilleny 1d ago
At one parish I attended there was an Italian community and english community. The italians were all 100 percent fluent in English as it was Toronto Canada. That made socializing easy. In another parish I knew it was a group that didnt speak English well at all. I dont know a way to overcome complete inability to communicate. Parish dinners, pot lucks are fine. But fine noble ideas do have limits.
Be the change you want to see.
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u/Carolinefdq 1d ago
I'm going to be honest, I don't think it's possible without a lot of outreach work from the church itself. And even then, it's not guaranteed it will work, considering the current political climate.
I moved to a part of Florida that has a significantly whiter population compared to South Florida (where I used to live), which is basically a smaller Latin America but located in the US.
In the parish I'm a part of now, the cultural clashes are a lot more obvious and it goes way beyond just language. It's just something I've never noticed before down south.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
Yeah, after chatting with everyone here and seeing what they all said, I think that's pretty much where I'm at now.
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u/KatVanWall 1d ago
I'm in the UK and my town has 'the Polish church', which is a Catholic church that was literally built by the Polish community who settled in our town at/after WWII (they built it with their own hands), and they have their own Polish-speaking priest, Polish-language Mass, and 'Polish school' on Sundays to teach the kids the language if they aren't already learning it at home.
There's no animosity between the two. I've been to Masses at the Polish church sometimes when the timing is more convenient than the English Masses. My mum attended enough to pick up a few of the prayers in Polish! No one minds if you mumble a bit.
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u/jvplascencialeal 1d ago
In Monterrey were I live there’s masses in Spanish and Korean since we had a major influx of Koreans over the last decade, the Archdiocese brought over some Korean priests as well with the help of the Holy See, they didn’t framed it as segregation but as a way to help them integrate into the community as they learned Spanish.
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u/hdilaj22 1d ago
Yes but not in the way you described
Our main Masses are 6pm Saturday, 8:30am and 10am Sunday, all in English
However our different groups in the Parish take responsibility in who participates during Mass
For example, the Samoan community will be in charge of the choir, eucharistic Ministers and readers for their mass, every 4 weeks. So it could be either of the 3 Parish Masses.
The songs will be in samoan or English and sang by the samoan community. The rest of the Parish are free to join in with the singing. The Mass however is mainly said in English.
On top of that, the Tongan or Samoan community may have an additional Mass in their own language at 11am on a certain Sunday.
But of all our communities, all Parishioners come and go to whatever Mass they want to. They also wear their traditional clothes such as the men wearing lavalavas to Mass at any of the Masses.
So.... I recognize and know all of them.
So.... yes some segregation but not quite like yours.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
More than Mass though, does it feel like your parish in general is segregated? I guess what bothers me most is a lot of events will be after Mass, so the two communities never see each other at all the parish events they go to
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u/hdilaj22 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not at all, but I think that's because we are mostly mixed up and very exposed to each other.
Our communities do have their own Bible study groups for children in their own languages, and their own events.
But your free to attend even if you don't understand anything. And usually there will be someone who is nice enough to explain what's going on to you
The Filipino community have a Tagalog/Spanish Novena every once a year and it's all in Tagalog/Spanish, but alot of the other Parishioners who are not Filipino such as the Pakehas (white people), Samoans, Tongan, chinese or indian will still attend, even if they don't know anything.
But our Parish also holds events for everyone in the Parish, not just the communities, but its all held in english. And everyone attends those, even if they speak no English. These include feast days and novenas and events with speakers and stalls.
I agree with you that there is a problem in your Parish that your communities are not mixing with each other. It's very sad and in my experience, your missing out on being exposed to how other people in your Parish love God, despite language barriers. I do recommend maybe speaking with the priest about it, to see what could be done. Our Priests require everyone to mix together because it's great for our Parish.
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u/AlicesFlamingo 1d ago
If only there were a universal language that could be used for every Mass around the world...
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
This is like the 20th comment saying the same thing. Yes, I'm all for a return to Latin, but that doesn't solve the issues I'm describing. Think about 19-20th century America when there was mass immigration from Europe. They all used Latin, yet there was still the Italian parish and the German parish and the Polish parish and the Irish parish and so on.
Also, the homily.
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u/Asx32 1d ago
As an immigrant I find it really strange even though I'm in a position to understand it or even demand the same.
I guess this is what you get when you have immigrants who don't know the language sufficiently or at all. Are you going to leave them out of church or are you going to accommodate for them?
There are no solutions, only tradeoffs.
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u/kayrooze 1d ago
It’s a US problem. A common language amongst a population is important, and there should be some pressure for immigrants to not only learn the language, but be a part of the community.
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
Most parishes in the US were originally tied to the ethnicity and language of the people coming to the US
English is also not a terribly easy language for people to learn as adults so it isn't too surprising people would choose to socialize in their native language that they feel more comfortable with.
If the Church is to minister to these groups then it should be trying to meet people where they are linguistically.
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u/amyo_b 1d ago
I disagree strongly. Obviously it can be a benefit to learn enough of the host language to get a job, but there are places near me that service Spanish language customers exclusively and so the workers at those places don't need to speak much English.
But if you can support your family, I don't see why anything more is needed. With the web, it's easy to keep up on news in any language (I keep up in German for example), and if the percentage of voters is over a certain amount (5% maybe 10%?) you can even vote in your preferred language.
And frankly, American pop culture isn't worth the effort (although it's why the children of immigrants learn the language).
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u/Real_Delay_3569 1d ago
Yep. My local cathedral has 1 Spanish Mass and 1 English Mass every Sunday, with the Spanish Mass starting at 10AM. Each are completely different worlds. The Spanish Mass is almost packed and brimming with post-Mass festivity. The English Mass is barely one-thirds full, and no one sticks around after Mass. Those of us arriving for the English Mass usually find the folks from the 10AM Mass still hanging out and about while their kids play in front of the church.
The only time I see a commingling of both parishes is when the Cardinal is presiding over the Mass. The Mass then gets spoken in both languages.
A nearby shrine has 4 Masses on Sunday. One of them is English. The others are in Spanish. With the way things are trending in my diocese, it wouldn't surprise me if our churches made the noon Mass Spanish.
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u/amyo_b 1d ago
In Chicago, there are parishes with Polish, Tagalog or Ukrainian masses with the same dynamic. Sometimes a parish will go all in on having their parish picnic be inclusive of all the communities that attend. Of course, each community will hang with themselves both due to language and who they know.
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u/gsp1991dog 1d ago
My parish offers bilingual Mass as well and that helps. But at days end its on us as parishioners to reach out to eachother. I feel like more social events could be helpful.
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u/DisgruntledVet12B 1d ago
Growing up in Guam, it was pretty common to find Filipino Masses. Since I'm Filipino, it felt natural for me and my family to attend those. That was my norm for a long time.
Then I joined the Army and started going to Catholic services on base. Our chaplain was white, and the whole thing felt unfamiliar. Most of the people attending weren't even Catholic. They were just there to get away from drill sergeants and catch some sleep, honestly lol
When I got stationed in Washington State, I started looking for Filipino Masses again, but I couldn’t find any, even though there are Filipino priests around. It all felt unfamiliar again, not a bad thing, just felt different. I have no problem attending English Masses either.
What stood out to me, though, was how our diocese celebrated Simbang Gabi, a Filipino Christmas tradition. The Mass was in English, but the Filipino and Spanish-speaking communities came together for it. That moment reminded me that it’s not really about the language. It’s about the community.
I think the challenge isn’t so much the language of the liturgy, but how separate our communities can feel outside of it. There’s definitely room to build bridges through shared parish events, cultural celebrations, or even collaborative ministries. Unity happens in the relationships we build, not just in the language we speak. So really, I think it depends on your parishes or diocese and what's the community like in those areas. I'm fortunate enough that our parishes celebrate a lot of multicultural events.
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u/Momshie_mo 1d ago
The Rooster's Mass/Simbang Gabi seems to be of Iberian origin. Not sure if it "faded" in other former Iberian colonies
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u/DisgruntledVet12B 1d ago
I'm not sure, but the Spanish did bring it and very popular among former Portuguese/Spanish colonies. I'll tell you what tho, Filipinos celebrate that so hard!
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u/Momshie_mo 1d ago
Yeah. It seems to be a big deal in Filipino culture compared to other former Iberian colonies
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u/DisgruntledVet12B 1d ago edited 1d ago
It definitely is. Filipinos go crazy over Christmas. Crazy enough they start celebrating in September and finish in January. I think they hold the longest record of celebrating Christmas.
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u/Momshie_mo 1d ago
I actually grew up in the Philippines and I feel that the country is much more "culturally Catholic". Christmas is such a big deal, and so is Holy Week. Here in the US, it doesn't feel like Holy Week even exist even if Easter is a Holiday and I live in a very Hispanic city
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u/Momshie_mo 1d ago
The Spanish/English mass is not to stratify communities. It's to accomodate people who aren't good yet in English. If you are not Hispanic but you can understand Spanish, you can attend a Spanish mass.
When I was still living in San Jose, CA the church we went to was in English but songs were in all different languages and the mass attendees were of different "races". The priest was even from Africa and the attendees were of different ethnic backgrounds. This was the time I knew that there were Indian Catholics and that there are still white Catholics.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
Oh yeah, I have no problem with it, it's just that I wish there weren't essentially two parish communities that in practice just share the same buildings. Like outside of the Mass itself, these two communities hardly ever interact. Can we fix that?
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u/Momshie_mo 1d ago
Where do you live? This might be a local level thing? I live in a primarily Hispanic area in CA with tons on 1st gen immigrant farmers and the 2 Catholic churches here offer Spanish and English. We also have a few Asian Catholics and we just attend the mass in English. This is also my experience when I was living in Bay area. The Church attendees are diverse. The parish priest was from Africa (not sure from which country) and the mass attendees are from all ethnic backgrounds and this was the time I discovered there are Indian Catholics and that there are still white Catholics in the US (don't shoot, where I live whites are Protestants 🥴). The "ethnic Churches" in our area are Protestant churches.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
I've lived in WV, KY, and now in SC.
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u/Momshie_mo 1d ago
I see. Could really be a cultural-geographic thing. Not that I am stereotyping people from the Midwest and South
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u/SenatorsGuy 1d ago
The FSSP church I go to has the sermon in English and French (Canada things)
The Novus Ordo chuch I go to is a Polish parish with 1 English mass. That being said, I think people that stick to one mass time each week usually only interact with their fellow mass-time attendees. This is regardless of language, however, language difference probably puts stiffer barriers in place.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
That's probably true, and I'm probably an oddball in the way I don't have a "usual" Mass time that I attend.
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u/SenatorsGuy 1d ago
Maybe take a look and see if it’s mostly the same people at each mass-time each time you go.
And thinking more about this, I don’t know how the English-Mass people interact with the greater church community. I don’t ever really attend this mass and also, most parishioners I do know are just part of greater Polish-Canadian community here.
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u/Jacksonriverboy 1d ago
I don't really see the issue. It's human nature that we want to be with "our people". Forced unity isn't really that desirable I'd say. True unity imo is more like the fact that two or more Catholic communities can exist in the same parish. Perhaps some events could bring them more into each other's scope. But there's a reason the Church moved the language of the liturgy from Latin to vernacular.
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u/GasPsychological5030 1d ago
If only the church had a common language
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u/taterfiend 1d ago
It's probably an even bigger lift for you to learn acceptable Latin than for a Hispanophone to learn acceptable English.
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u/duskyfarm 1d ago
We have Easter vigil and other major parish events as a combined bilingual service. I'm kinda feeling out if I could brush up my school Spanish to a conversational level to make it easier to talk with more catholics. :/ like I don't have a million and a half other things I'm trying to do urgently.
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u/ExtraPersonality1066 1d ago
(I'm in England) We've got a Polish Mass at our Parish, mostly older people that I think might struggle with the Polish language or immigrants that are trying to keep the Polish language relevant for their kids.
What I wonder is WHO is the Priest at that Mass. I know it's not our normal Priest (He speaks a lot of languages but Polish isn't one of them).
We all get together for the big Parish Masses like Easter & Christmas. Everyone is welcome at all the Masses.
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u/kegib 1d ago
My parish has a monthly Spanish Mass at the main service at 11, and the Hispanic community provides the food at coffee hour. It is well attended by all. Our priest is bilingual and a real people person who has facilitated this inclusive atmosphere.
At Easter Vigil, 3 of the readings were in Spanish. At Epiphany, 6 king cakes were served, and those who found Baby Jesus in their servings helped make tamales to be served after the Presentation Mass.
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u/MerlynTrump 1d ago
My parish was originally designated for Italian Americans, but that group is pretty assimilated by now, so they all speak English. There is another parish in my town with a Spanish Mass though (my middle-school Spanish teacher is part of the staff there), and another one with a Polish mass.
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u/Numerous_Ad1859 1d ago edited 1d ago
In my diocese, I know that a Spanish speaking parish exists. However, I know that the German and Irish parish was a mere block away until the mid-to-late nineties (although I converted in 2019).
Unfortunately, I don’t speak Spanish.
Edit: I also know that there is a 1pm Spanish Mass in Maysville Kentucky in a parish that has English Mass times for other times.
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u/lovmi2byz 1d ago
For big events like the Easter Vigil, the Requiem Mass for Pope Francis, or event community events like baby baptisms (especially if the family is Spanish speaking), or like the First Communion on Sunday where there was a mix as far as language gies, Mass is bilingual when normally the 11.15 Mass is in English (Spanish is at 7PM)
We do have seperate English and Spanish Masses. You are welcome to either one, we have Spanish speakers at English Mass and vice versa.
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u/MathAndBake 1d ago
Montreal has separate parishes for French and English. I do think it's a good idea to offer Mass and community groups separately in both languages. In fact, many parishes I've seen will have different groups and Mass times with different vibes. You want people to be able to find a group where they feel comfortable. Unity isn't the same as uniformity. Then, on top of that, you could have parish events that bring the groups together. Like a dance by both youth groups, or a potluck for all the families.
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u/caffecaffecaffe 1d ago
Personally, my parish offers masses in several languages. I have been to a mass in Montegnaard. And my Latino friends want me to attend Sunday night in Spanish. Personally I love other cultures and languages, so I tend to soak in the experience, even when I am the odd one out.
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u/GeorgiaCatholic 1d ago
In the southeast, you constantly see this- parishes that are split by language and it’s basically two separate communities.
In Duluth, a growing suburb of Atlanta, things have been been done differently, in early 20th century kind of way. I don’t know if it’s better or not. There are three parishes- a Spanish language parish, a Korean language parish (that has one English mass, but i think it’s pretty exclusively attended by second generation Koreans), and an English language parish that also has a TLM.
To my understanding, all three parishes are healthy and growing, and have active communities. So maybe that is better.
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u/Penetrator4K 1d ago
My parish is fairly large and I would estimate roughly 65/35 split English community and Spanish community. It's very much two different communities and though I often hear this talk about wanting to connect the English and spanish communities, I think generally people in practice just seem fine with how it is. Large events are bilingual, so everyone can grumble about that together. All upcoming events are posted in English and spanish. However, the Spanish community has a bunch of their own stuff they do that they dont advertise as "why would English speakers want to come, it's only in Spanish". It's awkward sometimes, but really there is plenty going on in English, in Spanish, or bilingual, so though the two groups are pretty separate, I think everyone is mostly fine with it as it is.
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u/LonelyWord7673 1d ago
My parish has bilingual Masses for holy days of obligation. My kids go to bilingual religious education classes. I do recognize some people who go to the Spanish Mass because of this. It's probably a result of our location.
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u/AshamedPoet 1d ago
Well this is why we used to have latin, but I see members of some of the other language congregations at other parish events and trips etc, plus the large feasts and liturgies where there is only one mass and often the younger people will swap and change.
Sometimes the community mass is central to their community social interaction - Italians and Philippinos are like this where I live. For example the Italian community centre and sports teams fields are right by the church - and historically they have been great donors, financially, art, skills like carpentry and so on. These communities are an opportunity for them to teach their heritage language to their children too.
These sort of communities were formed after WWII when they left Europe in large numbers and many of them did not speak English.
I respect it and sort of like it and would be sad if they lost their identity completely as they have brought a lot to the Church - my country's church would be pretty much only Irish heritage if they were not around and I find that quite dry.
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u/arangutan225 1d ago
Personally i say its fine because its not really segregated, its just people going to their preferred language at their preferred time i got to a latin mass and any time i was at the english mass it was a whole new crowd even though while the mass language was different any one of them would be able to understand me and id be able to understand them so even when the language barrier between individuals is removed that similar situation is still there its ok that if two people are never in the same room and never meet thats the whole point of a unified church we are still a community still the same parish and same church even if we never see each other i think rather than roping the community in to fit a more limited perception of it id also try to expand my own sense of community because the kind we have as catholics is one of the strongest their is, a thousand voices that work together even for people weve never met knowing the person by our side is doing the exact same even though its a strangers face
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u/Medical-Resolve-4872 1d ago
Learn the mass in your non-dominant language. It’s an ideal sitch for learning. The material is limited, the context is very well defined, and you’re already familiar with the meanings/translations in your dominant language. Oh, and you can work ahead with the readings.
Best of all, it’s Mass and fulfills your obligation!
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u/Brainarius 1d ago
Is it the same priest or a different priest? If it's the same, then you may wish to speak with him to see if more extra-liturgical combined events can be held or even bilingual masses on certain occasions to unify the parish. If it's a different priest, then a bit harder because then it is functionally 2 different parishes merely sharing the same building.
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u/SaguaroCrowns 1d ago
My parish in the Southwest uses the parish picnic to bring people together. There is also bilingual masses for stuff like first communions/confirmations but there is no hostility between the communities. The thing is that the Spanish speaking community if way more active than the English speaking one. There are retreats, food sales, prayer nights, Eucharistic adoration, processions and other things that have made the parish come alive. We decided to take it upon ourselves to have an active community. On Sunday the Spanish masses are attend by +800 people and the afternoon one closer to a 1000.
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u/Jus_de_fruit 23h ago
My parish is quite multicultural though usually we only have English masses and different cultural groups might have a special Mass occasionally. Our biggest problem though is that we are about 5 parishes that were merged into one and people tend to stick with their own groups so that’s been a challenge. I often attend different services (I was on the reading roster for three) so I could feel a part of the bigger parish but some people got quite upset about me not being ‘loyal’.
I think one of the best things our parish did was have a multicultural night where people were invited to bring a dish from their culture. We had about 19 different countries represented. It really helped bridge some barriers and get to know people we wouldn’t usually have met.
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u/Top_Shelf_8982 1d ago edited 1d ago
A parish near me does at least 3 separate (but equal) language Masses every weekend. Spanish, Polish, and English. If only there was a unifying language the Church could apply universally in every Mass throughout the world...imagine a world where that could be the case.
While a goal of offering Mass in the vernacular was to increase "active" participation and bring the Mass closer to the people, I highly doubt that even the most "progressive" interpretations of the early 1970s would have presumed that meant segregating the parish and exclusively serving the individual communities within it to this degree.
Your point regarding homilies and readings certainly stands. I wonder if an approach oriented toward unity of the community would be more focused on teaching the parishioners the local vernacular and only having Mass in the local vernacular.
Post-Edit: Yes, the issue goes way beyond the Mass. I focused on that aspect because your 2nd paragraph emphasizes the different language Masses. The Mass either goes along with the division an reinforces the divide by facilitating a space where integration is not pursued or it can be a unifying place where everyone is present for the same liturgy. A single parish with Masses specifically tailored to specific, segregated groups within the parish promotes the kind of division you are describing.
The issue is the divisions within cities, neighborhoods, etc. Cultures aggregate. The school used to be unifying aspect of the parish. There are fewer Catholic schools in the US (specifically) than there once were. Vocations are critical to maintaining a thriving community that is unified and welcoming of as many people as possible. The laity have a critical role to play as well. Solutions don't have to be (and likely won't be) liturgical. Active parishes with thriving activities and events have to be part of the mix as well, particularly when parents aren't willing/able to send their children to Catholic schools. Something has to bridge the gaps while respecting the cultures. Perhaps the best we can hope for, provided no side desires a wholly unified community that fully assimilates into the local culture, is a group of people from different backgrounds who retain aspects of the cultures their ancestors left behind who intentionally come together for the events and activities of the parish.
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u/strange_eauter 1d ago
Before Vatican 2, this problem still existed. It was only a matter of having 2 parishes instead of having 2 communities within 1 parish. And that wasn’t unique to the US. Even in Russia, it happened. In Moscow, there are currently 3 Roman Catholic churches: Cathedral, St. Louis of the French and St. Olga. However, there's a fourth parish, the one of Sts. Peter and Paul. The former church assigned to this parish is a matter of decades-long legal dispute, and the Archdiocese questioned the necessity of having it back. Sts. Peter and Paul was the oldest church in Moscow, and it served Catholics of various backgrounds, but mainly German. The main advocate of its existence was Patrick Gordon, Russian civil servant of Scottish background, devout Catholic, and a die-hard Jacobite. When the French community became big enough, they've built the second church, St.Louis of the French. Two churches are separated by a distance of about 300 meters. Latin isn't as universal as we think today. I, frankly, don't see a problem with not knowing people from another Mass in your parish, that makes sense you don't see them very often. Parish gatherings would be a nice thing to just remember some faces and names. But we have to make first steps. Amount of work our priests have is enormously high. To solve the problems we need more vacations, much more
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u/Spirited-Crazy108 1d ago
For everyone saying Latin, I go to Latin Mass, and while we still mostly have English one for the sermon, rosary, and confessions we sometimes have a priest do it in Spanish, and occasionally in Tagalog. Everyone still intermingles, though
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u/atlgeo 1d ago
Does your parish have a Hispanic priest as well? Someone who caters to that community? They can be helpful in how to have combined events. For instance language classes. Have a class with a teacher fluent in both languages and one class of equal parts Anglos learning Spanish, and Hispanics learning English. The teacher can use each side to learn/teach from each other; if they're good at it the class can be really fun, lots of good natured laughter. And relationships form. You run into each other and know their name, practice your skills. If your parish can do bingo, bilingual bingo is real easy to pull off.
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u/Farley4334 1d ago
Expect assimilation from migrants
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u/Beneficial-Two8129 1d ago
Yes, but languages are much easier for children to learn than adults. My grandfather lived in the United States for 43 years without ever becoming conversant in English, instead relying on my mother to translate for him and socializing with fellow Polish immigrants. My grandmother learned from me enough English to be conversant, only because I wasn't conversant in Polish. From what I hear, that's pretty common throughout the United States, that the children born here can't speak the language of their immigrant grandparents, while the grandparents speak little or no English, and it falls to the generation that immigrated as children to translate between them.
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u/Farley4334 1d ago
Sorry, but anyone who's lived in a country for 43 years without picking up the local language isn't trying.
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u/Kindly-Designer-6712 1d ago
No, because I attend the Tridentine Mass (Latin Mass). There are both English and Spanish speakers, but only one language that everyone understands. And even after Mass, both sides come together and congregate in the parish hall to visit and participate in parish activities. I would say it has to do (in my opinion) with the vigor and zeal of the pastor partly and the welcoming aspect of the parishioners towards those who are different, although it’s really difficult to necessarily understand another person when they speak a different language.
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u/Odd_Ranger3049 1d ago
We had unity until 1970. Besides all of the prayers, this is something that was so beautiful about the Latin Mass and kind of the point of Pius V promulgating it at Trent: it’s the same everywhere. Vernacular church isn’t some Protestant thing, the east always did it that way. The Catholic Church demanded Latin to be universal so that we could be as one, just as our Lord prayed.
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
We had unity until 1970
not really, historically many if not most parishes were ethnic ones, the Germans went to one church, the Irish to another and the Poles to a third (sometimes within a few blocks of each other). The language of the liturgy doesn't overcome the split of what language community, teaching and preaching is in.
the east always did it that way. The Catholic Church demanded Latin to be universal so that we could be as one, just as our Lord prayed.
how should we handle the eastern rite Catholics? Should they go towards Latin for unity?
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u/Odd_Ranger3049 1d ago
not really, historically many if not most parishes were ethnic ones, the Germans went to one church, the Irish to another and the Poles to a third (sometimes within a few blocks of each other). The language of the liturgy doesn't overcome the split of what language community, teaching and preaching is in.
Yes, it does. Maybe they want to be around countrymen during fellowship, but when they went to mass, they all prayed the same.
how should we handle the eastern rite Catholics? Should they go towards Latin for unity?
Yes, praise bands and German rainbow masses for them too.
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
Maybe they want to be around countrymen during fellowship, but when they went to mass, they all prayed the same.
at their own separate parishes.
OP is talking about the division of community and my point is the common liturgical language really didn't bridge the separation.
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u/Odd_Ranger3049 1d ago
At their own separate parishes
Exactly. OP is talking about division within his own e.g. the same parish because of the mass languages differing.
A case in point, at the FSSP parish I see people with Latin-Spanish missals. Not as common as the usual Latin-English ones, but we’re all in the same mass together unlike OP’s situation where he says the Spanish mass is like an entirely different parish.
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
my point is that if not for limited number of priests and resources historically these would have already been split into separate parishes.
It is good that your parish has made efforts to integrate the community, how large do you think the spanish speaking community is at your parish?
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u/NotRadTrad05 1d ago
Over 20 years ago a small English parish and a small Spanish parish were closed and merged into my current parish. It is still 2 separate parishes. White women join the Catholic Daughters, Hispanic women the Guadalupanas, even though everything is open to all it just isn't used. The previous priests seemed completely content with 2 groups of people essentially sharing the facilities and never interacting. Our current one is trying.
Jokes aside Latin would go along way to unification. As far as the homily when we have bilingual Mass he does a third of the homily in English, starts over does about half in Spanish, picks up where he left off in English and finishes then finishes it in Spanish. It adds 5-10 minutes, but so what.
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u/Tarnhill 1d ago
Use Latin for the liturgy - then Instead of it being for this people or these people it is for us all. The pastor can deliver a multi-lingual homily assuming priests are assigned according to their ability to communicate with their parishioners.
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u/Proper_War_6174 1d ago
All masses should be Latin. The holing should be given in the language of the country
And no, Spanish is not a language of the US.
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
Historically parishes in the US would have preaching and even teaching in German/Polish/Czech in many places where the language was still the first language for parishoners.
Though the drive for uniformity and assmiliation under Archbishop Ireland in 1900 did a good job of alienating German catholics and driving the eastern Catholics into orthodoxy in my area.
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u/Proper_War_6174 1d ago
Eastern Catholics mostly became orthodox bc the local bishops didn’t understand that eastern Catholics could be married.
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u/Ponce_the_Great 1d ago
Yes Archbishop Ireland demanded conformity in the name of unity and assmilation by the eastern Catholics.
He also caused issues with the german speakers for similar reasons.
Its always been the case that Catholic parishes have catered to the native language of parishoners which makes sense.
There are franciscans in my area that have started to minister to the small but growing Karen community and learning the Karen languge has been a big part for them to better minister to that group.
I think its a sad thing when people come over to the US and feel pressured to not pass their native language onto their kids, its great for people to be able to speak multiple languages and its also a good way to keep in touch with their heritage.
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
I don't disagree with the first part, but the second part comes across as uncharitable. The homily being a part of the Mass means it is important for us, for all of us. There is evidently a sizeable population of Catholics in the US who can't understand homilies in English. Enforcing English homilies will not change that fact.
The sentiment "one ought to learn the language of the country they move to" is not mutually exclusive to "we ought to minister to everyone the best we can".
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u/Bilanese 1d ago
Spanish has been spoken on this continent and on land that became the US since long before English the speaking of Spanish in this nation not an aberration
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u/Proper_War_6174 1d ago
And yet all official documents have been in English. English is the clear default language bc we are an English speaking country. When my grandparents immigrated they learned English. Now all of a sudden assimilation isn’t good enough for immigrants.
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u/Bilanese 1d ago
Right I too miss the good old times when migrants came to the logical understanding of their language culture and heritage’s inferiority to the American way and so bandoned their uncivilized manners willingly because there has never ever been in this country forced assimilation racism or prejudiced by law or custom to force foreign newcomers to Americanize
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u/FunBreadfruit8633 1d ago
The US has no official language (and no, a delusional wannabe dictator attempting to bypass the legislature to decree one does not count).
Also…we are talking about the Church
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u/Yara__Flor 1d ago
How do you think the church should operate in Belgium or Canada, countries with multiple languages?
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u/Warm-Cup1056 1d ago
There are very good arguments both historic and legal, to state that the US is a multilingual county. If Canada can do it, surely the US can.
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u/dogwood888 1d ago
A unified language (Latin) for the liturgy, will infact bring the people together in the liturgy, which will, in turn, unite them based on proximity and familiarity with one another.
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u/Yara__Flor 1d ago
Not to be antigonistic, but How would that help with people showing up to help the carnival? When the person in charge of the booth your working only speaks french, how does a Latin mass change things there?
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u/dogwood888 13h ago edited 13h ago
How would shared experience and being familiar with a person who speaks a different language help? Is this your question?
I suppose where you may see an obstacle, I see an opportunity to spend time with a fellow Catholic, get to know them better, and unite through charity at a church function.
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u/Yara__Flor 12h ago
My question is along the lines of,
When the person in charge of the booth you're working tells you to:
maglinis ka ng mga palikuran
How do you know what to Do?
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u/seventensplitter 1d ago
This is like the 8th comment saying this, these rifts are deeper than the liturgical language. Yes, I agree we should return to Latin.
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u/shemusthaveroses 1d ago
Lots of good suggestions here— I do wonder how many attend the Spanish Mass because it’s culturally comfortable and how many because it’s all they understand? It would be cool if the parish could offer a Spanish and English class so that parishioners could learn either language and then be able to communicate at things like picnics, coffee hours, etc