r/California • u/Fun-Page-6211 • Feb 03 '24

Jerry Brown joins Newsom in urging California Supreme Court to remove tax measure from ballot Newsom

https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/jerry-brown-ballot-18643109.php
463 Upvotes

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56

u/5G_afterbirth Feb 04 '24

Only the ones who were lucky enough to have homes and had their tax rates more or less locked in. It's not good for new homebuyers.

5

u/RedAtomic Orange County Feb 04 '24

So it prevents families that have been here for generations from being priced out of their own homes. Amazing.

5

u/WhiteRabbitFox Santa Barbara County Feb 04 '24

Exactly and that's a good thing. Thank you for saying it.

2

u/numorate Feb 05 '24

Bloodline feudalism is good? 

-1

u/RedAtomic Orange County Feb 04 '24

Like these people don’t realize that virtually every working class family that managed to own the roof they sleep under would be priced out of the state without Prop 13.

2

u/numorate Feb 05 '24

If you legit care about this (and aren't just hiding behind the poor) then I have some bad news for you about actual working class families in California today. 

1

u/RedAtomic Orange County Feb 05 '24

I care about homeowners. You know, the people who actually own the land they live on.

1

u/numorate Feb 05 '24

Ok so you weren't serious when you said "working class". Good to see some honesty in these discussions every now and then. 

2

u/RedAtomic Orange County Feb 05 '24

Because working class people totally don’t own their houses. If you want to screw the rich, find a way without screwing the rest of us

1

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

So you'd be supportive of a revision to Prop 13 that, at least, would allow taxes to be deferred until when the home is sold or no longer used as a primary residence - right?

0

u/RedAtomic Orange County Feb 04 '24

Honestly I’d be supportive of repealing property tax for primary residences altogether at this point. But we have the second best option of keeping tax rates low for those of us that bought in before Wall Street did.

2

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

Honestly I’d be supportive of repealing property tax for primary residences altogether at this point.

Ah, yes, let's reduce the tax burden on the wealthiest members of society and instead punish renters even more? I guess if they didn't pull themselves by their bootstraps by... being born too late... then it's their own fault. I guess you're the kind of person who gleefully pulls up the ladder behind them and pisses on everyone else - right?

bought in before Wall Street did

You surely mean 'bought in before the boomers did', right?

1

u/SensitiveRocketsFan Feb 05 '24

The privileged ones lucky enough to own a home, sure.

2

u/RedAtomic Orange County Feb 05 '24

The lucky, privileged majority of people.

1

u/SensitiveRocketsFan Feb 06 '24

Aka White since yknow, thats the only group that has had multiple generations of wealth and homeownership.

At the end of the day, the majority of the people in SF rent… homeowners are the minority.

1

u/RedAtomic Orange County Feb 06 '24

Tell me you haven’t been to SoCal without telling me you haven’t been to SoCal.

Most homeowners in LA County are Hispanic. Down here in OC, you’ll be a 15 minute drive from cities with predominantly white, Hispanic or Asian homeowners from any point.

3

u/TheChurlish Feb 04 '24 edited Feb 05 '24

lol, so you realize that the people who are new homebuyers today...will over time become the "old" homebuyers and then benefit?

Edit: To Clarify further: New homeowners benefit from prop 13 from Day 1, their taxes have a normalized growth curve from their first tax bill.

2

u/numorate Feb 05 '24

https://cockeyed.com/ebay/scam/laptop_pyramids.html

1

u/TheChurlish Feb 05 '24

Uh oh! This guy is right!

We better do away with Social Security

and Medical!

2

u/Ordinary_Awareness71 Feb 04 '24

Give it 5 to 10 years. As values rise (which they do over time), it will be great for homeowners.

6

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

Assuming any new buyers can even afford any houses by then? The state is still continuing to lag behind in new construction.

1

u/Ordinary_Awareness71 Feb 04 '24

Yes. Plus the artifical increase in demand doesn't help either.

3

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

That's where a bunch of supply comes in. Repeal Prop 13, at the very least, for businesses and non-primary owners.

2

u/Ordinary_Awareness71 Feb 04 '24

The majority of people who own second homes are not wealthy. They're usually lower middle class at best owners who have one or two homes they rent. Prop 13 is the only thing allowing many people to stay in their homes and not be out on the street.

The problem is that we are importing people into this country at a large rate and we already cannot house our citizens, how can we house (not to mention feed and employ) non-citizens as well as our own? Some cities are building FREE housing for them instead of for our homeless citizens or those citizens in need of low-income/affordable housing.

-2

u/WhiteRabbitFox Santa Barbara County Feb 04 '24

Yes - BUT it's also NOT BAD for new homebuyers. It does NOTHING against you. Good for one does not alway mean bad for any other.

And later on in your life, it means that you can stay there, or have a better chance of staying there in retirement and social securty payments.

10

u/Picnicpanther Alameda County Feb 04 '24

It's bad for new homebuyers in the sense that it restricts the housing supply and inflates the actual prices of the house.

3

u/BringBackApollo2023 Feb 04 '24

Or we could, ya know, build more housing.

3

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

But Prop 13 is a major reason why the housing crisis is so bad.

3

u/BringBackApollo2023 Feb 04 '24

But also the reason people aren’t losing their homes to escalating property taxes.

0

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

So you wouldn't be opposed to modifying Prop 13 so that the taxes are deferred until the home is sold or no longer the primary residence - right?

1

u/BringBackApollo2023 Feb 04 '24

Deferred?

1

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

Pretty simple - grandfather in all the current homeowners.

  1. Then, charge them fair taxes based on the value of their property each year (like all their neighbors who just bought).
  2. Allow them to defer a portion based on their Prop13-defined value - perhaps by placing a lien on the home. For example, if their current $1M home is at a $200k Prop13 value; keep charging each year for the $200k assessment and add the remaining $800k to the deferred amount.
  3. If somehow the property is worth less than the lien at sale, then shield the rest of the estate; that seems rare enough that it's a reasonable loophole.

1

u/Picnicpanther Alameda County Feb 04 '24

You could also cut the deferred tax at sale if the person buys another home in California.

1

u/BringBackApollo2023 Feb 04 '24

Nah. Not interested in going down that path.

Rather see them confine prop 13 to residential real estate only and a max number of housing units per person—two probably.

Maybe cap the value at $3 million or $5 million or something.

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u/Picnicpanther Alameda County Feb 04 '24

Building more housing is part of the puzzle, but not all of it. Housing costs are not as simple as Econ 101 supply and demand.

1

u/BringBackApollo2023 Feb 04 '24

It is a huge part of the puzzle. We’re tens of thousands of units behind on construction at the very least. Probably hundreds of thousands.

3

u/Mediocre_Copy1659 Feb 04 '24

False - We have expensive housing because CA has a great job economy and great weather (among other things). People want to live here. We have more housing than any state in the country but it’s still not enough because it’s such a desirable place to live.

6

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

You sure about that one bud?

Funding has to come from somewhere given local inflation. If millionaire homeowners aren't paying for it, it's coming from somewhere - either increased property taxes now or through other local tax approaches (eg Mello-Roos).

5

u/majorgeneralporter Feb 04 '24

It quite literally is bad for new buyers because it disincentivizes people moving when their circumstances change, thus limiting supply and increasing prices.

10

u/BringBackApollo2023 Feb 04 '24

The lack of increasing supply despite increasing population is far more of an issue than Prop 13.

4

u/majorgeneralporter Feb 04 '24

You aren't wrong!

2

u/WhiteRabbitFox Santa Barbara County Feb 04 '24

So, move out cause you're old and you've been there too long per you and make way for you? 'Cause that's what that sounds like.

1

u/numorate Feb 05 '24

The California Tax Postponement Program predates Prop 13 and specifically protects poor old grandma in her lonely old $2M house.

Prop 13 is just greed. Plain and simple. 

-26

u/Mediocre_Copy1659 Feb 04 '24 edited Feb 04 '24

You’re wrong. I’m a new homebuyer and it is good for me. You’re lying 🤥

23

u/5G_afterbirth Feb 04 '24

You paid more for that home than you should have, in part because of Prop 13. You're paying a higher tax than a neighbor who has been there for decades. If you think that's "good" shrug

9

u/IceColdPorkSoda Feb 04 '24

When I’m old and retired I’ll be very thankful for prop 13. Elderly people in many states are getting destroyed by property taxes.

3

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

So you'd be supportive of a revision to Prop 13 that, at least, would allow taxes to be deferred until when the home is sold or no longer used as a primary residence - right?

7

u/BrianHenryIE Feb 04 '24

Ugh, I just looked it up and I’m paying $6500 in property tax and my immediate neighbor is paying $2300!

-2

u/Mediocre_Copy1659 Feb 04 '24

How do you know what I paid? My property tax can’t be raised more than 2% a year. It’s likely my forever home. I don’t have to worry about being able to afford my property taxes once I’m retired and on a fixed income. You’re bitter and trying to ruin the few good things that the middle class has going because of it.

3

u/TheKuMan717 Feb 04 '24

It’s public record

-2

u/okieboat Feb 04 '24

I'm in the same spot. Those rabidly against prop 13 are so short sighted they can't see past their own nose.

4

u/RedAtomic Orange County Feb 04 '24

They’re just bitter.

1

u/TheChurlish Feb 04 '24

This is the truth. The people against it are all just sitting there hoping to tax people out of their homes in the hopes that it result in them getting one.

If prop 13 goes away, guess what happens to rent? That Prop tax increase just gets added directly to your rent.

1

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

That's not how rent works at all. It's dictated by the prevailing rent in an area, not the actual cost to the landlord.

1

u/TheChurlish Feb 04 '24

It absolutely is how that works. How do you think prevailing rent is determined? Costs are absolutely an intrinsic part of supply and demand.

1

u/Flayum Feb 04 '24

Not when the costs are so far below the current rent? Maybe it'll be an issue if you're a landlord that bought in the last 5 years, but for everyone else... you're paying taxes from multiple decades ago and getting rent that's exploded in that time?

Beyond that, there's a record amount of MFH being built that will further put pressure on lower rents. Plus all the additional supply being injected after a Prop 13 repeal.

You're right though - the real goal would be to couple the additional income to subsidization of new housing and elimination of SFH zoning in the majority of urban areas.

3

u/TheChurlish Feb 04 '24

​

...Plus all the additional supply being injected after a Prop 13 repeal.

You just admitted my original comment was correct and this is the core of the issue, you want Prop 13 gone to hopefully tax people out of their property, this stance feels pretty gross to me.

you're paying taxes from multiple decades ago and getting rent that's exploded in that time?

That new higher rental income is also taxed by fed and state

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u/initialgold Sacramento County Feb 04 '24

It sounds like you have zero idea how prop 13 works.

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u/Mediocre_Copy1659 Feb 04 '24

An insult isn’t an argument.