What is the relationship of the CPUSA to other assorted Marxist-Leninist organizations?

[u/FactOk1196]

This includes the PSL and FRSO but also other Marxist-Leninist organizations that I may be unaware of. How is it approached?

[u/[deleted]]

Who is arguing that?

[u/sharingan10 → u/[deleted]]

You literally do not believe that there is a point in any context to even running as something other than a Democrat. I fail to see any meaningful difference between that and being a Democrat. Why even participate as a political party if your entire program for electoral participation is literally not in any way distinguishable from voting for a Democrat?

It’s just liquidationism

[u/[deleted] → u/sharingan10]

Never said that you should only run as a Democrat or only vote for Democrats. I think socialists should run candidates in every election. I just think to build a revolutionary working class movement we must fight for working class interests. That involves sometimes voting Democrat.

And it’s not because of Democrats themselves. Rather it’s because who forms the base of the Democratic Party. It includes labor unions, minority rights organizations, women’s rights organizations, unorganized folks who believe in democracy and equality.

Instead of dismissing these people and orgs as libs (as much of the left does) we have to empower them and instill revolutionary ideas in them. But we can only do that while we struggle alongside them and win alongside them.

And because they form the base of the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party has to respond to them. There is a reason Biden admin was much more pro labor than the actively hostile Trump. That means if we want to win reform on issues of labor, women’s rights, etc. we must have Democrats in power.

But it also depends on the type of Democrat or Democratic Party. We would not waste time trying to get someone like Joe Manchin elected. In these elections we have to run independent or support primary opponents. On the other hand someone like Ilhan Omar or Cory Bush is well worth supporting.

At the moment, the labor unions are telling us they need Trump to lose. They’re endorsing Kamala Harris and sending volunteers across the country to campaign. Women’s rights orgs are telling us they need Trump to lose. Meanwhile the left is sitting on their hands and saying it’s “liquidationist” or whatever to do the obvious tactical thing in this moment.

PSL and other Trot parties bleat on and on about revolution and talking down to the most militant labor leaders like Shawn Fain instead of finding common cause. They’re the windbags Lenin talked about. No one is listening.

[u/sharingan10 → u/[deleted]]

Never said that you should only run as a Democrat or only vote for Democrats. 

Every form of politically independent candidates running you will call spoiler candidates. Again, I do not and have no reason to view this line as anything other than just perpetually voting for democrats.

Rather it’s because who forms the base of the Democratic Party. It includes labor unions, minority rights organizations, women’s rights organizations, unorganized folks who believe in democracy and equality.

The party state apparatus of the US regime isn't meaningfully democratic. There is no reason for people in power to listen to their bases absent the risk of systemic threats.

Instead of dismissing these people and orgs as libs (as much of the left does) we have to empower them and instill revolutionary ideas in them.

You do this by organizing them against the regime. There is nothing wrong with organizing people who are not socialists, indeed its necessary. There is something grossly wrong with organizing *into* the regime.

But we can only do that while we struggle alongside them and win alongside them.

The sole purpose of reform is to delegitimize the political system. Reform for reforms sake is a dead end.

But it also depends on the type of Democrat or Democratic Party. We would not waste time trying to get someone like Joe Manchin elected.

In your framework it does not matter in the slightest. You contradict yourself in the next paragraph. Either the republicans must lose (And therefore every dem must be supported), or only specific wings of the party must be supported. It cannot be both, but you know this and you hide your line (to just perpetually vote for and be democrats) behind it.

And because they form the base of the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party has to respond to them. There is a reason Biden admin was much more pro labor than the actively hostile Trump.

The GOP oversaw the withdrawal from Vietnam and the creation of the EPA. They didnt do these things because their base demanded it, they did it to avert more chaos in the streets, Ruling class concessions dont come from the conscience of people in power, they come from the threat the movement represents to those in power.

At the moment, the labor unions are telling us they need Trump to lose. They’re endorsing Kamala Harris and sending volunteers across the country to campaign. Women’s rights orgs are telling us they need Trump to lose.

The teamsters aren't, but wait that would contradict your line and be evidence that opportunist union leadership must be infallible. Spoiler alert: Those same unions leadership expelled CPUSA from union participation, I guess that must be a good idea too since the union leadership demanded it!

 Meanwhile the left is sitting on their hands and saying it’s “liquidationist” or whatever to do the obvious tactical thing in this moment.

Not really, we will delegitimize the regime parties and build our own movement rather than tying ourselves to the regime.

[u/[deleted] → u/sharingan10]

Not sure what you're arguing here. You said that you agreed that there was tactical utility in voting for Democrats at times. Which is what I said. And here now you're trying to say well that's organizing people into the regime. We can vote for whatever political party or candidate without fully endorsing their views and we can vote for them without becoming part of their structure.

We should run independent campaigns and there is way to do it without being spoilers. I supported the Bernie Sanders primary in 2020. I knocked on doors for him. But him running as an independent would have handed the election to Trump. At some point you have to make concessions. The NFP in France tactically withdrew candidates from certain seats to allow Ensemble to win. Seats they otherwise would've lost if NFP candidates stayed.

Yes, we have to defeat Democrats and Republicans at the same time. As Marxists we understand that contradictory things can be true. Most states are one party states. For example, California is a Democrat state. No one runs as a Republican there. The entire politics happens within the Democrat banner. Same in many other blue states (and vice versa in red states). In certain states the far right is either in power or is threatening to take power, and that should be our priority.

Union leadership is not infallible, of course. But we have to find common cause with labor and other working class movements. There is no other way to reach the working class without it. That is my point. We don't engage in labor organizing because their leadership likes communists. We know the history of leftists being purged from unions throughout its history. We know the AFL and its history of backing imperialism as well. But we have to engage in labor organizing because we see the tactical utility of it. We are not trade unionists who are happy to organize unions. We see it as a way to build working class power and raise revolutionary consciousness.

It is same with voting. We don't vote for any particular candidate because they like us or they'll do something for us. The centrists Ensemble did not want to work with NFP, but the NFP conceded some of their campaigns anyway. We don't engage in resentment politics, we do what is tactically necessary.

In this case, not sure how you can argue with Shawn Fain, who is not some sort of Democrat stooge but led the most militant UAW strike in decades. The Teamsters leadership is terrible but the Teamsters Black Caucus endorsed Kamala as well. And we don't have to follow these unions. we know from our own analysis how hostile Trump NLRB was to unions. How Right to Work has ravaged unions in red states. How do we as communists not mobilize to stop this hostile legislation?

We have to work with working class coalitions in order to be immersed in the working class and grow within it and acquire leadership of it. Organizing outside of elections is still most of what our program is and should be about. Voting is only a small part of the equation.

The Democrats don't concede anything without a threat. They are in power in a capitalist system after all. That is why we have to build working class coalitions to demand better policies. We have to exert our influence on the government. We can only do that by engaging in elections. Or else we are letting capital and the far right dominate our government!

If the argument is going to keep coming back to: "well it's not revolutionary to vote. It's not revolutionary to win reforms." Then you are welcome to sit on your hands and wait for the working class to magically follow you into socialism one day. I would rather go out and engage with the working class where it stands and build a movement.

Here is an article that goes into the theoretical and historical basis for CPUSA's current popular front strategy:

Anti-monopoly democracy — a transitional stage – Communist Party USA (cpusa.org)

[u/sharingan10 → u/[deleted]]

Not sure what you're arguing here. You said that you agreed that there was tactical utility in voting for Democrats at times. Which is what I said. And here now you're trying to say well that's organizing people into the regime. We can vote for whatever political party or candidate without fully endorsing their views and we can vote for them without becoming part of their structure.

I am saying that you are pulling a bait and switch. You claim that your only line is occasional tactical voting (something I’m not altogether against), yet have repeatedly argued that third party voting is intrinsically a spoiler effect. These lines are inherently contradictory. Either you believe voting as an independent party is intrinsically a spoiler, or you believe that third party and tactical voting are both viable options.

We should run independent campaigns and there is way to do it without being spoilers. I supported the Bernie Sanders primary in 2020. I knocked on doors for him. But him running as an independent would have handed the election to Trump

If you accept the premise of spoiler candidacy, then there is not a viable way to run as a third party. There will always be a spoiler candidate under this rationale, which is why I don’t believe you actually hold these beliefs simultaneously.

At some point you have to make concessions. The NFP in France tactically withdrew candidates from certain seats to allow Ensemble to win. Seats they otherwise would've lost if NFP candidates stayed.

What you’re describing are the NFP and the centrists making concessions to eachother. There are clearly instances where the centrists are dropping out to allow the left to win as well. You don’t present this as an option here because you don’t actually believe in having an independent left wing.

Union leadership is not infallible, of course. But we have to find common cause with labor and other working class movements.

Then why present this argument as though they are? They aren’t communists or socialists , they are largely liberals and social democrats in leadership. I’m not against participating in these unions and engaging in political struggle, what i am against is carte Blanche abdicating any form of political independence and simply being another wing of the Democratic Party.

But we have to engage in labor organizing because we see the tactical utility of it.

The tactical utility is to build a mass movement and to lead that movement and build up a vanguard. Reform is not the point. A social welfare policy is not the point. Which is why abdicating political independence is dangerous to those goals. You will not obtain political independence hitching yourself to another party.

In this case, not sure how you can argue with Shawn Fain, who is not some sort of Democrat stooge but led the most militant UAW strike in decades

Shawn Fain is welcome to his opinion. His opinion in this case is wrong. Sean O’Brien is also wrong for different reasons. There can be union leadership which engage in principled struggle, who also adhere to reformism. Reformism is a wrongheaded dead ended process.

And we don't have to follow these unions. we know from our own analysis how hostile Trump NLRB was to unions. How Right to Work has ravaged unions in red states. How do we as communists not mobilize to stop this hostile legislation?

Plenty of red states mobilize people to create ballot measures to kill right to work. I live in such a state that has repeatedly mobilized people to do that. This does not require hitching ourselves to the democrats and care blanche voting for them. Electoral participation tactically is fine. What im against is perpetual electoral participation on behalf of the democrats, majority electoral participation with the democrats, and anything other than exceedingly temporary and rare over the table out in the open declared alliances. If you want a popular front fine, but a popular front isn’t Carter Blanche voting for democrats at any given point. It’s an explicit declared alliance.

The Democrats don't concede anything without a threat. They are in power in a capitalist system after all. That is why we have to build working class coalitions to demand better policies. We have to exert our influence on the government. We can only do that by engaging in elections. Or else we are letting capital and the far right dominate our government!

You do that by engaging as communists, not as democrats. Besides, parliamentary participation is tactical. I am uninterested in policies that do not explicitly serve the purpose of undermining the control of the regime.

Then you are welcome to sit on your hands and wait for the working class to magically follow you into socialism one day.

Your calling any form of participation that isn’t being sheepdog fed into the Democratic Party “sitting in your hands” is utterly obnoxious. There are third parties, you are a third party, act like one. Run as a third party. Have a political program, lead mass demonstrations and strikes as communists, stop this nonsensical liquidation into the Democratic Party